Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: triaesthete on June 27, 2013, 02:25:11 am
-
Another post re. lateral thinking. Do you need SPDs or similar for efficient pedalling? This chap has done a 72 hour Paris Brest Paris wearing Crocs! And he tours in Europe with bike and kit together weighing less than 10 kg...
http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/
Fascinating
Ian
-
Interesting stuff, Ian, & thanks for posting the link. I use Crocs, too -- but for canoeing, 'cos they float... Different strokes for diff'rent folks -- I've had foot problems with cycling shoes & pedals of all kinds, 'til nearly ten years ago I switched to insanely expensive/brilliantly comfortable Keo-Look pedals & Sidi shoes, and haven't thought about my feet since, when cycling. Conversely, I've never had any foot or knee problems, happily, through many years of hiking in all sorts of strange and wonderful & demanding places. Go figure.
The fella's bike is certainly lightly loaded, and I saw his foto of cycling in Namibia, where there are great distances without much in the way of food/water/people. That said, some of the places I ride, within a few hours of Ottawa, require that you carry food -- one can ride for most of a day without passing a cafe or food store.
Certainly worth looking over his list and asking oneself, "Do I really need this?" (Whatever "this" may be.)
J.
-
Fascinating
It sure is, Ian! I've followed iik's blog since the beginning, and my respect for him and what he's done has only grown. It has been wonderful to see his approach evolve over time and he is not held back from stretching the boundaries further with each tour.
Some thoughts on this fascinating approach...
Despite a number of advancements and refinements over the years, cycling -- particularly road cycling -- remains an amazingly conservative sport/pursuit. It takes real (social) courage to buck the tides of conventionality as iik has done, and he admits to having caught the harsh words of the cafe roadie crowd.
I also like how he has adapted much of the ultralight hiking ethos to cycling and then took it further, pioneering many innovations of his own.
Like John, I've often looked in wonder and gone back several times to match his accounts to the geography where he's cycling. It really is amazing to me he can get by with so few provisions and so little water in such seemingly vast/harsh regions, but I don't doubt it for a moment. He's really refined his entire outlook and takes a true systems approach to touring.
Experience has taught me it is wise to err on the side of caution with extra food and water in the remote regions where I tour solo and self-supported, but I am always open to learning new ways, admire what he's done, and I'll readily admit: I wish I had the nerve and -- yes! -- courage to employ some of his techniques where I go. Riding light and fast really can make up for much of what you'd have to carry when going heavy and slow...unless something goes Really Wrong, and it is that which makes me more conservative in my approach.
There's some things he's done that I have as well, and they worked out fine. Others...not so much. I think it comes down to personal preference and individual physiognomy. For example, when I first started cycling "with intent" many years ago, I did so in Nike Elite waffle trainers, a very lightweight, foam-soled shoe that cleated nicely over the rear cage of the pedal and was nice for walking off the bike. I put a lot of miles in on those things and found my feet became more and more painful. A trip to the doctor revealed I'd damaged my feet on the sharp edges of the quill pedals and ended up with this: http://www.smartfeetsavannah.com/smart-reference-library/where-does-it-hurt/forefoot/fat-pad-loss The only way to keep cycling was to switch to "proper" cycling shoes, so that's when I bought my first pair of Detto Pietro Article 74 cleated shoes with firm nylon soles, a steel stiffening plate, and some neoprene foam orthotics. 'S'much as I'd love to cycle in casual shoes, I still can't, some 34 years later. What I do now is ride in cycling shoes and take my Merrell clogs ( http://www.amazon.com/Merrell-Encore-Breeze-2-Slip-On/dp/B004UHVHJ2 ) for camp use and general walking...a sort of halfway measure in the direction iik has gone.Do you need SPDs or similar for efficient pedalling?
Possibly not! All of this puts me in mind of Roger Durham, the Southern California machinist who founded Bullseye. He was one of the pioneers of the oversized aluminum diamond bicycle frame, his two-piece tubular cranks predated Shimano's nearly identical but much later HollowTech design, and his modular aluminum hubs with user-replaceable shielded cartridge bearings paralleled Phil Wood's. Near the end of his time with the company, he became a proponent of pedals with large wooden platforms, which predated the similar looking but much more recent Ergon Pc2: http://www.ergon-bike.com/us/en/product/pc2
Except for his alu derailleur pulleys with shielded cartridge bearings (I equipped every single one of my bikes with these back in the day and have never had to replace a single one even now) Roger's stuff was often deemed too radical for the roadie crowd, but went over big with the BMXers, where it still plays a role today.
A couple links might be of interest:
Interview with the current guiding force at Bullseye, with plenty of "Roger reminiscences":
http://www.bmxultra.com/prosection/inside/bullseye.htm
A short essay by Rivendell's Grant Petersen on riding efficiency, with references to Roger Durham. A full interview with Roger appeared early in the second volume of the Rivendell Reader, as I recall. I inherited the full set of early paper copies as well as the original Bridgestone Owner's Bunch (BOB) newsletters many years ago from graphic artist Tim Mitoma, who had done some logo and art work for Riv.
Yes, iik is really doing well to push the envelope for himself and most of us could take at least one thing from his approach and use it to make our own cycling better. I'm glad there are people like him in the cycling world, trying things others daren't and making us all that little bit richer for his efforts.Certainly worth looking over his list and asking oneself, "Do I really need this?" (Whatever "this" may be.)
Nicely put, John.
Best,
Dan.
-
i came across that guy before no offence but as we would say here in ireland he's a strange one .don't know if he's trying to be a one off header or he's a guy that would live off grass ;D ;D
i could not go for a 10 mile cycle with out taking a good repair kit couple spare tubes wet gear.i would have more in my saddle bag for a day ride than he would for a world tour. ::)
-
I think Igor just applies logical interpretation to his own aims and experience. I really admire his independent thought and his ability to ignore or resist peer pressure.
Good blogs like this (and you guys here!) help me to develop and question my own ideas and practice.
Like you Jags I'd have more in my bag for a day ride. I've spent too many days past wet and cold not to carry rain gear all the time now....
I wonder Dan, if Igor has a different approach to emergencies, like the WW2 Long range desert group where "four members of the LRDG escaped by walking 200 miles (320 km) to safety in ten days with no food and only a two gallon water can between them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Desert_Group Perhaps another reason to ride in regular shoes!
Like you say John always good to ask why?
Wacky days
Ian
-
I wonder Dan, if Igor has a different approach to emergencies, like the WW2 Long range desert group where "four members of the LRDG escaped by walking 200 miles (320 km) to safety in ten days with no food and only a two gallon water can between them."
Boy, Ian...I love reading stories like this about people like that!
I'm guessing Igor does have a special plan -- or simply plans to ride light and fast enough to ride out of trouble. Looking at my Nomad leaning against the fireplace mantle in the livingroom, trailer hooked behind it, I have had several of those face-palm, "Oh, what have I wrought?" moments in the last couple days, especially as I contemplate Day Two of my upcoming tour, which is non-stop climbing up really steep grades next to a sun-baked rock wall with exposure on the near side. On the other hand, a look at the map's lack of water stops and the high temperatures have decided me on this "heavy lifter" course and really see no alternative unless I take a very great and unwise risk given the harsh conditions. Yes, 10 hours' riding at 10 miles per hour is a hundred miles, but a 15mph average would net 150 -- half again further.
I think of Nick Sanders' The Great Bike Ride: Around the World in 80 Days on the bookshelf here by my desk. His lightweight Spar looks much like a Thorn Audax, and was minimally equipped with two small panniers on a front lowrider, a small underseat tool bag, a Silca pump, a single .75l water bottle, a taillight, straight block and what appears to be half-step racing gearing. On this, he regularly made distances of 150-185 miles (as he measured distance at the time; 300km days in metric):
http://www.amazon.com/The-Great-Bike-Ride-Around/dp/1852532289
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Sanders
http://nicksanders.com/cms/
He employed the same "light 'n' fast" philosophy for a RTW motorcycle record, preferring a lightweight Yamaha R-1 sport bike to the usual dual-sport BMWs, KTMs and Honda Transalps, though he has gone the DS route as well with a Super Tenere, which he found easier:
http://supertenere1200.com/2011/09/15/nick-sanders-answers-your-questions/
Really, there's great merit to both approaches. If you go light, then there is much less stress on the bike due to weight (increased reliability and reduced need for spares), and you can also go faster, needing fewer provisions between resupply stops, and you'll cover much greater distances each day. On the other hand, "going heavy" means you're going slower on (paved) roads, but are more self-sufficient during the longer transit times.
All of this goes right to my plans to come back from this "heavy-heavy" tour and fit the Nomad or my rando bike with my SOL kit only -- tent, footprint, pad, sub-kilo down bag, and my Pocket Kitchen with 21g beer-can-and-penny pressurized meths stove -- and see how light and fast and far I can go in more benign environments where up to 6.5l of water on the bike would be "enough" (and then some!). I'll never get to the lightweight levels of Igor, but it is nice to think I won't have to carry everything but the kitchen sink (Wait! Outdoor Research and Ortlieb make those too!) with me. Just 'cos the Nomad can carry enormous loads doesn't mean I want to all the time or even need to. In truth, so much of what I will be carrying in this trip will likely never be used, including the tools and spares. The winter-weight bag is unlikely to be needed except when snow-camping atop Steens Mountain, and if it stays dry, I'll never need my rain gear.
Mental state and outlook play a tremendous role as well, and I suspect Igor has something in common with the LRDG in terms of a "whatever it takes" mentality. I find I can well-tolerate going the spartan route for about two weeks, but then find myself wishing for More or a break before continuing in that vein.
Best,
Dan.
-
Dan, Nick Sanders is definitely what Jags would call a header ;) but all the better for it ;D I admire his style and his superhuman staying power.
Sometimes the exploits of these people boggle the mind. For example most motorcyclists of my acquaintance think 500 miles is a big day, then thanks to Brummie I see Andy Wilkinson has ridden 540 MILES in 24 hours on his bicycle! I seem to recall reading that Nick Sanders was sometimes covering more than 1200 miles in a day at some points in one of his record attempts (riding at night in India :o)
Mind you Ellen MacArthur makes all these folk look soft....
Ian
-
Another post re. lateral thinking. Do you need SPDs or similar for efficient pedalling?
Does efficiency include pain-free? I've ridden many thousands of kilometres without SPDs, but way back in the 80s I had recurring knee-strain that at times flared up to make it impossible for me to ride. Since I have used the SPDs I never get any knee strain. On some occasions I have felt a bit of pain developing and it has been because I am pounding down on the pedals. Concentrating on pulling back (a la scraping mud off the boot) is all it takes for me to lose the pain.
So yes, SPDs are much better for my pedal-efficiency.
-
I dont think you will notice any difference in pedal efficiency. Spds only become critical when you are trying to eek out every last percentage from your performance. Having said that I recently moved to spds for three reasons.
1) I was going through regular trainers at an alarming rate through wear and tear from the pedals (4 pairs this year alone) Not only was this destroying the shoes but as the sole broke down I was suffering from foot pain at the pressure point after about an hour cyling.
2) Looking at doing more offroad and trail riding the extra security of knowing your foot cannot slip of the pedal is very reassuring.
3) I am hoping to get more winter riding done this year and the choice in cycling suitable winter shoes and over shoes is biased towards spd use
I bought a set of cheap shimano spd pedals (about 20ukp) and a set of Shimano mt53 shoes. Very happy with the choice. Currently shopping around for some overshoes for winter
Andy
-
What Andy says and...
4) Normal pedals + a lot of shoes = slips when it rains. It rains a lot here.
5) Easier entry/exit at traffic lights. I've just gone to straps on an old...err...classic bike and it's quite a bit slower to get started at the lights, which is annoying if there's cars impatiently pushing behind.
6) No pressure points on top of foot from strap
However, if you are used to straps 4 doesn't apply and 5 may not be an issue touring. Shimano MTB SPDs are bomb proof and you can walk reasonably comfortable on most MTB shoes. Not for miles on end as the soles are hard, but good enough for small trips.
I'm a convert.
-
Horses for courses if you don't know any better than it make no difference what you ware imho. but i think anyone who went from using everyday shoes or whatever to cycle ,to using proper road shoes with cleats foung the difference amazing.
same as riding ultra lightweigh to fully loaded which would you prefair ;)
-
I thought I would not like being on my Thorn much after building a geared vintage bike which is about 7lbs lighter and a better fit.
However, I was wrong. It seems a good bicycle is a good bicycle heavy or not.
I think ultimately it depends on your style of riding/what you enjoy.
Going slower is not necessarily a bad thing as long as the extra heft gives you something else such as comfort/ride quality etc..as the same time I would not go back to 20KG roadsters now that I found out you can have a relatively svelte touring bike you can cycle with normal clothes too :)
-
Eliminating "special clothes" has been my latest project, and what a revelation it has been. I can just go out now without changing so I go out more.
The shoes/pedal thing was the hardest nut to crack but well worth the effort.
I don't go much slower but I do smile more ;D
Ian
-
I have attacked the same problem from the other end. Now I wear my cycling shorts all the time and then I am ready to ride without much of a delay.
I have a couple of bikes with normal pedals that I can just jump on for a quick ride but have now moved over to spd pedals which means a change of shoes for the bike.
To be honest I think changing your shoes often is not a bad thing for your feet so am happy to put up with the hassle.
Andy
-
The shoes/pedal thing was the hardest nut to crack but well worth the effort.
Please, Ian, can you tell us more about your methods?I wear my cycling shorts all the time...
YEAH! Andy, I *knew* this would be fashionable someday....have now moved over to spd pedals...
'Kindya get, Andy? if go that route, I want some with the same high quality sealed needle and deep-groove Conrad bearing combo I have on my SunTour Superbe Pro road quills.
Best,
Dan.
-
Eliminating "special clothes" has been my latest project, and what a revelation it has been. I can just go out now without changing so I go out more.
The shoes/pedal thing was the hardest nut to crack but well worth the effort.
I don't go much slower but I do smile more ;D
Ian
Never having been a roadie, I didn't know any better, so when I took up cycling, I bought the clothes. Most I wore once. All that plastic was just too stupid and hot and sweaty and smelly for words; not me at all. I returned to what I normally wear (khakis, cords, track suits, all of it in cotton so that I can put on and take off layers) and acquired, first, some VP-191 platform pedals (superb!) and then vintage Phillips rubber block pedals off the net to have the bigger surface. I just climb on my bike when I want to go, whatever I'm wearing on the day. My bike, it must be said, is pretty clean though, courtesy of a Hebie Chainglider and P65 mudguards with mud flaps.
Andre Jute
-
Please, Ian, can you tell us more about your methods?YEAH! Andy, I *knew* this would be fashionable someday.'Kindya get, Andy? if go that route, I want some with the same high quality sealed needle and deep-groove Conrad bearing combo I have on my SunTour Superbe Pro road quills.
Best,
Dan.
Hi Dan Shimano has pedals that are serviceable and with titanium spindles, I've a pair of XTRs (used) and they're great.
There's other brands too, but Shimano is generally very economical and bombproof.
I wear my cycling shorts not on the Thorn but on the Ciocc...the Regal saddle is still a tad firm...though getting there. But really anything bar long skirts (or ones to short so you can't lift your leg over the bar) can be worn on any bike.
Strange enough cotton doesn't work for me, too sticky/sweaty and plastic it is. All different ;)
-
I think of Nick Sanders' The Great Bike Ride: Around the World in 80 Days on the bookshelf here by my desk. His lightweight Spar looks much like a Thorn Audax, and was minimally equipped with two small panniers on a front lowrider, a small underseat tool bag, a Silca pump, a single .75l water bottle, a taillight, straight block and what appears to be half-step racing gearing. On this, he regularly made distances of 150-185 miles.
Best,
Dan.
Hi Dan,
Thanks for the heads up on Nick Sanders 8) I have two of his Cycling Books still! :o He was one of the rider's/writers that got me start with Lightweight cycle touring I have a photo of my bike with just two front panniers (on lowriders). My bike was a top end road racing bike with full top end Campagnolo cycle group. just had a few lower gears and 28mm tyres on it. I ride about the UK on a lot of offroad cycle tracks too.
I got asked (all the time) if I was just away for a weekends cycle ride? and got looked at sideways when I said I was away for 3 to 4 weeks :-X (I did 3 cycle tours a year when I was in the UK 1987/89)
I read all of Nick Sanders Books, and Nicholas Crane, Richard Crane Books (still got the books and not the bike)
This was my start of Cycle Adventures!
Pete
PS SPD's on all my Two Wheeled Bicycles and NO SPD's on any of my old Unicycles :P (too hard to dismount!)
-
Dan said "can you tell us more about your methods?" Well Dan I think you are partly to blame for this particular epiphany, exposing me to the likes of Grant Petersen and Jan Heine.
Grant sums up the shoe thing nicely here in "the shoes ruse", http://www.rivbike.com/Articles.asp?ID=255
Oddly shoes I thought wouldn't work, like my old Salomon sandals, actually go really well even off road and up big hills.
As for shorts, I only needed them when I had the wrong saddle. Got a Brooks not got a problem. Done rides up to 12 hours in civvie skivvies. No worries about indecency or absurdity when popping into the shops, and some pockets for hands free practicality to boot.
Up top? Get some Merino on your back. Astonishingly un pongy and super comfy in hot and cold weather. Available super good and super priced from here http://on-one.co.uk/c/q/clothing/merino_2013
Very happy days
Ian
-
Well Dan I think you are partly to blame for this particular epiphany...
:o Oh, what have I done? ::) Corrupted another impressionable youth by feeding them the Petersen-Heine brand of Kool-Aid. Sigh. I will pay for this. :D Just think, Ian...you could have looked like just another replica-racer if not for this. ;)
All kidding aside, it really can be nice to just hoppondebikeandgo. A person is much more apt to ride than not. In fact, I've found even little impediments can be enough to derail a casual ride. For many years, I swapped my seat-bag tool kits, computers, and pumps between bikes, but eventually equipped each bike with its own so I could just hopponandgo (which isn't but should be a Petersenism, right there with embiggen and such).
I'm most intrigued by your footwear choice, as this has been the most problematic for me. I have skinny, narrow feet ("Why yes, I ski" has been my usual response to shoe-store clerks) and that's one reason why I ended up with my narrow Detto Pietros. They also offered terrific protection from the pedal cages; I had partially burst the fat sacs in my feet from riding extensively in trainers in my earlier years. Salomon sandals, eh? Hmm. I must keep this in mind and cast my net of "possible" footwear a bit wider. Thanks, Ian; very helpful information!Thanks for the heads up on Nick Sanders...
Ah, Pete, Nick and the Crane Brothers are remarkable, aren't they? Until I bought Sherpa and then got the Nomad, *all* my touring bikes were much as you describe yours -- on skinny-tired 700C road bikes with minimal gear, light and fast even when well off-road (which these bikes handled amazingly well!).
Jawine, thanks for the SPD pedal-bearing information. That's just what I'm looking for as a future first-time buyer. We're of the same philosophy wrt cotton, but it will make everyone happy to know I still have all my merino wool jerseys and wear them occasionally. Still among the very best for touring tops while sleeping in the tent after a long day's ride. Cool when hot, warm when cool, I am always astonished at just how "smart" wool can be!
All the best,
Dan.
-
I heard good stories about Merino should give it a try. More difficult to get women's stuff in my size in sale I vaguely recall that was my excuse last time :P
It gets worse when there's people behind you in your Lycra shorts and you wonder why they don't overtake...
It's interesting to note how drivers react, male drivers in Lycra can get an aggro reaction from male drivers, female drivers in Lycra can get checked out by male drivers and female drivers...I haven't noticed anything. Are they watching the road, perchance?
###warning small sample size and bias ^ :)