Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: Brains on November 06, 2003, 05:34:26 am
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Well I thought I would put the first post on this forum and simply say "Ortalieb", as it would seem that is what most of us have found having started off with someting else that cost less, we end up with Ortalieb.
http://www.ortlieb.de/prod_en.php?lang=en
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Well, Brains, I will rise to your bait.[:)]
I've read on the Cycling Plus forum all the comments from the followers of fashion, saying: "Buy Ortlieb".
But after doing a lot of research, I chose Carradice Super C front and rear panniers and bar bag, for the following reasons:
1) Cotton duck is a far tougher material than the stuff used by Ortlieb.
2) Cotton duck, contrary to what some people say, is 100% waterproof; all that is needed to ensure it stays that way is a re-proofing once a year, similar to what I do with my Barbour jacket.
3) The Carradice panniers have outside pockets - the Ortliebs do not. If you want pockets for your Ortliebs, you have to buy them at vastly inflated additional expense, on top of Ortlieb's already high prices.
4) Carradice is a British company, and all other things being equal, I'd like to support jobs in this country. I also have the impression that Carradice is a company with integrity and a very strong customer service ethic.
5) I like the look of the Super C panniers on my bike.
6) I expect my Carradice panniers will last me the rest of my cycling life.
In conclusion, all I would say to anyone looking to buy panniers is: don't be swayed by fashion and received opinion - and don't just buy by mail order - go and see and touch and compare the different brands - and then make up your own mind.
Best wishes,
Jeremy
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Can I add that they are more environmentally friendly, being made of natural materials.
I have to admit that I use Ortliebs though and have found them pretty tough, hardwearing and completely waterproof. Outside pockets can be added to Ortlieb, but I am retiscent to puncture the bags in order to fit them...
Like Jeremy though, I think I prefer the aesthetic of the Carradice bags - just look at the EXP on the Thorn ads with the Brooks B17 and Super Cs - its a work of art! As my Carradice saddle-bag is perfectly good in the rain I might be tempted to try Carradice in the future.
Their overshoes are pretty waterproof too, though an awful fit. Anyone got any experience of their wax-cotton cycling cape? Again, Goretex seems to be the received wisdom, but are there alternatives?
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The Ortlieb panniers (and other gear) are waterproof by design and material (this is what everybody tells you). And it turned out, that they are easy to use, means that they are waterproof in real life. I've got over gear which is more complicated to use and therefore not waterproof when you need it.
But of course almost any other pannier is nicer to look at.
And it is not necessary to sew additional pocket to it, it is possible to glue it bomb-proof.
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I agree with the Carradice comments, entirely. Not an old fashioned prude or anything, just know they work really well. I have been contemplating new panniers for next spring and have already decided on Carradice, as seen at the Cycle Show
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I had a good deed from Carradice a few months ago.
I bought a set of "Recumbent specific£ supr "c"'s and then changed bikes. I spoke to Carradice and they had no hassle about me rolling up at the factory and changing them for new Upright bike panniers. I will stick with them thanks.
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Folks
Also try ARKEL. They are well designed and quite unique. You will not be disappointed.
Rubber side up.
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I have an Arkel Ladybug which is possibly the only pannier/rucksack combination bag which changes quickly between the two modes and works well in both modes. The capacity is 30L which isn't huge so it hasn't replaced my panniers for all uses. The Ladybug is sewn together so isn't as waterproof as Ortliebs.
Robin
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I dont think these days that buying something to "last the length of my cycling life" is relevant as new materials and technology are coming in every week.
I have found Ortlieb products to be the best available that I have ever used, my old, heavy Carradice are now housing household junk up in the attic, which is all they were really suitable for anyway.
You pays yer money and takes yer pick, mine goes with Ortlieb any day.
Best regards
Barrie
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Smith
Well, Brains, I will rise to your bait.[:)]
I've read on the Cycling Plus forum all the comments from the followers of fashion, saying: "Buy Ortlieb".
But after doing a lot of research, I chose Carradice Super C front and rear panniers and bar bag, for the following reasons:
1) Cotton duck is a far tougher material than the stuff used by Ortlieb.
2) Cotton duck, contrary to what some people say, is 100% waterproof; all that is needed to ensure it stays that way is a re-proofing once a year, similar to what I do with my Barbour jacket.
3) The Carradice panniers have outside pockets - the Ortliebs do not. If you want pockets for your Ortliebs, you have to buy them at vastly inflated additional expense, on top of Ortlieb's already high prices.
4) Carradice is a British company, and all other things being equal, I'd like to support jobs in this country. I also have the impression that Carradice is a company with integrity and a very strong customer service ethic.
5) I like the look of the Super C panniers on my bike.
6) I expect my Carradice panniers will last me the rest of my cycling life.
In conclusion, all I would say to anyone looking to buy panniers is: don't be swayed by fashion and received opinion - and don't just buy by mail order - go and see and touch and compare the different brands - and then make up your own mind.
Best wishes,
Jeremy
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I was told cotton duck panniers would last a lifetime. They didn't. The fabric was quickly holed by abrasion. (I was using the panniers for work and shopping as well as for cycle touring.) The fabric is not waterproof! It is water resistant but is easily overloaded by a downpour. A sleeping bag in a cotton duck pannier would need to be kept in a waterproof bag.
Having critised the fabric, I have to admit that failure of the fittings ended the useful life of the panniers. The fabric used to make anything is often less significant than other design features.
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Have been touring with Ortlieb Front/Back Rollers Plus extensively. Very good function and quality on the bag. But I am not to impressed with the QL-2 hangers that can be found on these more expensive models.
Need bigger front bags for my next trips and think I will give the Vaude World Tramp(yes, that's me!;)Cordura a try.
Maybe not quite the same quality, but they have an extra bungee/hook so the stay put even on very rough surface. Mine would occasionally fall of! I also had problems with the shims falling out. Solved that by drilling a very fine hole trough them and tied them down with stainless steel wire around the hangers...!
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Just had a vaude bag blow off the side of the rack and nearly under the path of an on-coming bus. The bag was about 18 months old and had been used every day for commuting and on cycling holidays and recently on all the offroad sections of the c2c too. What can I say? fantastic bag - very user friendly, totally waterproof, completely reliable until yesterday. I cant complain but it did alarm me somewhat. The lower 'hook' thing (dont know its technical name) just ripped off the back of the bag taking with it a chunk of its surroundings too. Earlier the same day the buckles on the bag had gone as well. Clearly it had reached the end of its useful life. I dont know it if had a weight limit but it regularly carried 10kg of stuff about. Its mate is still going strong it would seem.
What should I replace it with? was considering Ortlieb sport-packer plus for the front (Thorn mid-loaders fitted at the moment) and Ortlieb roller plus for the back. Any suggestions/comments? Do the Ortlieb sport-packers fit Thorn mid-loaders?
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quote:
Originally posted by OHUI
What should I replace it with? was considering Ortlieb sport-packer plus for the front (Thorn mid-loaders fitted at the moment) and Ortlieb roller plus for the back. Any suggestions/comments? Do the Ortlieb sport-packers fit Thorn mid-loaders?
Yes - they will fit and are a good choice. Slightly more capacity in the sports-packer than in the front-roller. Back is the same on roller or bike-packer so just a case of style preference. My wife runs bike-packer back and sports-packer front and they work fine.
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Thanks for the advice. Have ordered sport-packer plus. Will be using them on the back for commuting until I get round to ordering larger paniers for the rear for touring and then will use the spp on the front.
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Like most of posts in this topic, I'm in favour of the Ortlieb Q1 panniers. I've had a pair for the last three years, I've used them almost daily for commuting, shopping and the odd camping trip and they are still like new. The other day I decided to invest in some front panniers and order a Q2 set, thinking more expensive must be better. I however didn't like them at all and ended up trading them in for a pair of Q1 classic's. On the Q2 I needed to use a kind of fill in bits to make them fit to my Tubus rack, which kept falling of, and getting the pannier on and of the rack everytime was a struggle and they didn't look more secure either.
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Q-2 or Q-1, OLDER HEAVIER MATERIAL OR NEWER LIGHTER MATERIAL ?
Hi all! I've read through the above chain of messages, alot of which centers around Ortlieb vs. Carradice. I've been wanting to make a decision for myself, when I can, in the future, afford some good panniers.
I like the look and feel of the Carradice, but definitely seem to perceive a consensus that those people which have used both for a long period of time, on the whole prefer the Ortlieb, yes? (anyone that has given their Carradice panniers years of heavy use, please speak up?)
So, despite my enjoying the "organic" quality of the Carradice, I am heavily leaning toward the Ortlieb.
NOW I'M CONFUSED ON A NEW POINT : there are a number of comments in the above thread about people not being happy with the new Q-2 fittings.
The Classic Ortlieb's with the Q-1 fittings are cheaper (which is nice) but I was coming to the opinion that the Q-2 fittings were supposed to be better and easier to use, and the new material significantly (yes?) lighter and even stronger.
I would really be thankful for some more clarification on these points, or additional comments from people experienced with the different fabrics and Q-1/Q-2 fittings and even anyone that has given serious long use to Carradice and somehow still disagrees with the above (seeming) consensus toward Ortlieb simply working better and lasting longer...
thank you so much
your friendly neophyte Thorn-ite
procyon
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I thought I'd blow some of the dust off this old thread...
I just ordered a Carradice saddle bag, which is a sort of pack NO ONE ELSE really does much of! I've just ordered a Barley Saddlebag in green with honey straps - I expect it to be much better than my rack-top bag for brevets & day rides (I still can't get that rack bag to sit firmly on my Tubus rack....)
I've seen some people stuff a remarkable amout of stuff into a Longflap bag! No one else can compete in this area.
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My bag arrived this week, and I gave it a good workout today. Fantastic! A really well-designed, sturdy piece of kit. A longer discussion and photos are on my blog at http://andrewbikes.blogspot.com/2006/04/carradice-barley-saddlebag.html .
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quote:
Originally posted by ahconway
Fantastic! A really well-designed, sturdy piece of kit.
SNAP[:)] (http://"http://static.flickr.com/44/128851149_a1e8423185_m.jpg")
I went for the slightly larger Nelson and I didn't like the rubbing on the back of the legs so added a Bagman support.
With full touring kit I've got a 50/50, front/back, Ortlieb/Carradice split. Ortlieb bar bag and front rollers, Carradice front super C's and saddlebag. 60Ltrs capacity in total, well distributed around the bike, the idea is that I shouldn't need to open the panniers on the road and they can be left at base camps for day rides.
That's the theory, hopefully the summer will provide the practice[:D]
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Just a couple notes:
- when you add the external pockets to the Ortlieb panniers it doesn't affect the waterproofness of the main bags at all.
- if your Ortlieb hooks are too large for your rack's tubing and you don't want to use those pesky adapters that always seem to get lost just wrap your rack with electrical tape where the bags sit until they fit your bags nicely. This will do away with the adapters and protect your racks from wear.
cheers,
Vik
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I have used Ortlieb and carradice and find the Cotton Duck far superior,Ortliebs seam a good bet,but as they wear you soon find your stuff wet because you get little pin holes in the fabric that need sealing with patches,you have to do this a lot,also they don't breath leaving your things sweaty,but the Carradice cotton duck fabric closes around any small holes keeping your things dry,they also breath and last twice as long as Ortlieb panniers even though they are bigger and cheaper,so for me if you want them to last get Carradice,but if you want to pose and have all the modern looking kit,get Orlieb,the choice is yours.
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cyclekarl,
You just voiced exactly my thoughts!
I have no doubt that the first time out Ortliebs are more waterproof than Carradice but after 3 years of use I also have no doubt that the Carridice will be going strong while the Ortliebs will be in the bin.
PS welcome to the forum
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cyclekarl,
You just voiced exactly my thoughts!
I have no doubt that the first time out Ortliebs are more waterproof than Carradice but after 3 years of use I also have no doubt that the Carridice will be going strong while the Ortliebs will be in the bin.
PS welcome to the forum
Well, 8 years after posting the original message (the first post ever on the forum I believe) I have to say my Ortalieb roller classic rear panniers are still going strong and still don't leak despite being used for 17,000 miles of fully loaded tours and every day of the week for commuting
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I stand corrected!
17,000miles is a very impressive lifespan
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I've been using a Carradice saddlebag and Ortlieb panniers of various sorts for the last 13 years or so. I found Ortliebs' fittings to be more durable, the stiches on the Carradice come off from time to time (and sending them over to England for a free repair makes little sense for me). I never found the little abrasion holes (a crash in Jordan, roof rack in Ladakh, baggage handling in Rwanda and such) in the Ortliebs as problematic; if anything they increase breathing capability from zero to something more :D . Classic rollers are the way to go.
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I come down in favour of Vaude over Ortlieb. I've put my comments on the other thread. I WOULD buy Carradice IF they made panniers out of fully waterproof material with a roll top closure! I agree that they're not waterproof. Waterproof cotton is ok for a shower but the water will seep through eventually.
Each to their own though.
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I have a full set of ortliebs as well as a set of Carradice paniers for my moulton. I just ordered a Thorn Nomad and for it I'm going with a second pair of ..... Carradice bags. Simply put .... I find them better. I like the cotton duck and the fact that it seems as if they can be mended on the road but mostly it is because my ortliebs don't seem to breath as well and my clothes get this "left in a ziplock back for a week in 98 degree heat" feel and smell to them in my ortliebs, while not so much in the carradice bags. The ortliebs are great. I have to say that. However the carradice have won me over just a bit more.
On another note ... Hello everyone! I here sitting in a knot waiting for my Thorn Nomad to arrive and it has been very nice to read the posts on this forum. :)
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Hey there, Pavel!
Welcome!
Looking forward to hearing about and seeing photos of your new Nomad once it arrives. It'll be here before you know it, so hold on tight and time will pass. Any questions in the meantime, just ask; people here are friendly and helpful.
The Carradice bags will look wonderful on the new Nomad, I'm sure; great choice. Nothing says "expedition" quite like a Carradice, methinks.
All the best,
Dan.
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Waterproof cotton is ok for a shower but the water will seep through eventually.
While I have used Ortlieb panniers for the past 6-7 years and love 'em, I have previoulsy used proofed cotton duck (Superdux) panniers for many years. I also have a Carradice SQR Tour seatbag made out of their Superdux. I can only emphatically assure you that proofed cotton duck is very waterproof - not just in showers but in all day rain and in torrential downpours. When they get a bit wet the cotton fibres swell and seal the fabric against water.
I also have a large car-camping tent made of the same sort of fabric and it keeps the water out very well.
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I have a full set of ortliebs as well as a set of Carradice paniers for my moulton. I just ordered a Thorn Nomad and for it I'm going with a second pair of ..... Carradice bags. Simply put .... I find them better. I like the cotton duck and the fact that it seems as if they can be mended on the road but mostly it is because my ortliebs don't seem to breath as well and my clothes get this "left in a ziplock back for a week in 98 degree heat" feel and smell to them in my ortliebs, while not so much in the carradice bags. The ortliebs are great. I have to say that. However the carradice have won me over just a bit more.
On another note ... Hello everyone! I here sitting in a knot waiting for my Thorn Nomad to arrive and it has been very nice to read the posts on this forum. :)
Well I have just ordered a Nomad Too (last night) and have been trying to work out which bags to get too.
I thank that i'll go with Carradice.
I just do not like that Ortliebs and Carradice use Nylon and not aluminium like Arkel?
Peter G
:)
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I just do not like that Ortliebs and Carradice use Nylon and not aluminium like Arkel?
Not sure what you are referring to? Is it the material for the mounting hooks that you object to? What is the terrible concern with nylon?
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Not sure what you are referring to? Is it the material for the mounting hooks that you object to? What is the terrible concern with nylon?
Sorry the mounting Hooks and Hooks mounting bars!
PeterG
>:(
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OK. So what is so bad about nylon?
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OK. So what is so bad about nylon?
Not as Strong?? with a load??
I was thinking! My plan is to 1st to ride offroad and on Back Road's around the South Island of New Zealand (see my home land) then to Cycle across Africa sticking to back road's (to see the true Africa)
Just Ordered a Thorn Nomad mk2 and picked up my new Rohloff today.
:o
NZPeterG..
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Plenty of cyclists have travelled the globe with Ortliebs, over all sorts of terrain. I've never heard of any hook failures. Not saying it can't happen, but it can happen to alloy hooks as well - I've seen these fail (depends a lot on what sort of alloy is used and how fabricated). Alloy hooks are also more noisy and more prone to damage your rack finish.
In my experience with Ortliebs for the past 7-8 years, none of the hooks have failed. One of my front pannier hooks does seem to have spread a little so the spacer clip does not stay in place, but it still functions well. These front panniers have habitually been used for food and have at times been very heavily loaded - especially on our 2010 Outback tour up the Oodnadatta Track - so it's no surprise the hook has spread.
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Hi All!
I come to Ortliebs from decades of using panniers with stiff tempered-aluminum backs and stainless-steel hooks (Kirtland TourPak and my own homemade clones of same...and yes, the hooks carved little divots into my aluminum racks. They tried to on my steel-tube Thorn Low-Loader Mark V front racks when they were on the Miyata 1000LT, but some tape prevented damage from occurring).
It was an...adjustment to come to Ortliebs and their glass-filled nylon hooks after that. And, I was concerned about their durability.
A look at the nylon soles of my ancient Detto Pietro cycling shoes inspired some confidence in the longevity of good-quality nylon, even though it was not glass-reinforced. Long-term reports from tourists worldwide have been encouraging, wrt to Ortlieb. Failures seem to be fairly rare, but they do happen. When they occur, they fall into five general modes...
1) They mainly involved spreading of the hooks and loss of the sizing-adapter inserts (a more extreme version of what Pete has experienced on the one hook of his front pannier). The outright cure is replacement of the hook and/or sizing adapter. Reported on-tour repairs include tying the adapters in place with dental floss or gluing them with SeamGrip. An alternative is to wrap about a half-roll of electrical tape around the rack so a sizing insert is unneeded. According to reports, swearing and cursing are an essential component of the repair process.
2) There have also been reports and photos on the 'Net showing broken stabilizer fins snapping where the more flexible fin meets the solid, cylindrical base. This is due to the existence of a stress riser caused by an abrupt change in section width where the flexible fin meets the inflexible base.
3) Cold does seem to be a large correlate in frank (outright) breakage of Ortlieb hooks. I have read several reports of the hooks snapping in the cold.
4) The major factor in non-cold breakage is users failing to fully seat the hooks and engage the spring-loaded clasping (retention) arm below each hook. What this means is one hook is carrying the full load, and at an angle, leading to twisting and greatly increased loads and therefore breakage.
5) Second-order vibrations and impacts also play a role; more about that later in this post.
Frighteningly, a few people on the 'Net apparently use their Ortliebs without the adapter inserts, though they are needed for their sub-16mm racks. This can lead to failure (and a lot of rattling!).
It also helps to periodically check the tightness of the machine screws Ortlieb uses to mount their rails. The gasketed entry points for the bolts are also a source of unexpected leakage in otherwise waterproof Ortlieb bags, as waterproofness depends on a gasketed trapping of the pannier fabric between the nut and bolt where holes pierce the bags. In general, loose bolts in any location are also more prone to shearing.
Ortlieb pannier hook and mounting rails failures seem to be less frequent with the later QL-2 mounts, but they may simply be too new to have developed much of a failure track record. No-tools hook adjustment and replacement are nice features of the new mounts.
Belt 'n' Suspenders (carry spares if you're worried; I do!)
I decided to carry one complete spare set of hooks, pre-installed on the QL-2 rail of each rear pannier. Placed there, they take no room in my bags and add an extra impediment to a quick snatch-theft. The idea is to have a spare set of hooks that can be used in any place on any of my bags in the unlikely event of a hook broken due to crash damage or materials fatigue. I doubt I will need them, but they weigh little and are unnoticed in riding, sitting quietly at the ready if needed.
I also have two stabilizer fins fitted to each rear pannier. Though the second fin adds stability, only one is really needed, and so is available for replacement on any bag.
Perhaps this would ease your mind a bit about the possibility of breakage and how to manage if it occurs.
Of course, this does nothing about the possibility of a broken rail, but one can't carry spares for everything. I carry zip-ties of various strengths and gauges (be sure to avoid the whitish ones; they have little UV resistance), and figure I can always rig a semi-permanent mount to the rack with those if necessary, perhaps even boring through the fabric and stiffener to do so (yes, the bag would no longer be waterproof, but there's always bin liners and such, which is how I managed before...and I would still be mobile, which is critical in come of the places I go).
Tie 'em down! (the unrecognized value of compression straps)
I have wished on occasion the Ortlieb back-stiffeners were a bit stiffer, particularly with regard to how they affect hook rotational torsion. My tests* have shown a prime cause of Ortlieb hook-wear on racks (scuffing through powdercoat and into the steel rack tubing) comes from this rotational wear. To see the effect in action, load a bag, clip it onto the rack, then boost it from the bottom with your hand to simulate riding over a rough road. You'll notice the flexible stiffener allows the rail-mounted hooks to rotate around the rack tube. The solution is to use a compression strap (around the bags and rack) to keep the bags and contents in place hard against the rack and limit movement. It does wonders for virtually eliminating the second-order vibrational impacts the contents, bags, racks (and ultimately the bike) would otherwise be subject to. Hit a bump and you feel the jolt. If the bags aren't fully constrained, that same bump will cause the bag contents (and the bags that carry them) to loft and fall in response, creating a second-order impact).
It is not enough to simply compress the load in the bags. The bags and contents must be tied solidly to the racks. This is key to reducing the possibility of breakage.
Tie the bags and contents solidly to the racks, and you've cut that by half or more, as the contents cannot move, the bags can't loft or move against the rack, and everything has an easier, happier life, including the hooks that suspend it all. That's a lot of useful function from one webbing strap, Fastex buckle, and keeper per bag. At times I feel a bit like the lone voice in the wilderness on this, but if one really wishes to reduce the possibility/incidence of pannier rack and bag hook breakage, tie 'em down with compression straps. The advantages increase as the road surface gets worse. It is a cheap, effective, lightweight solution and adds a small additional burden to the snatch-and-grab thief, especially if the buckle is rotated to sit below the bag where it isn't immediately visible. If the web strap is secured with a Fastex or quick-release buckle, it is a trivial impediment in regular use.
Hope this helps,
Dan.
* My test rig was made from an old bicycle rear-frame (seat tube, BB and rear triangle) with a rear rack mounted on it. The square-taper BB was fastened to .25in steel strap bent in a "]" shape and anchored solidly to the workbench. The rear axle was fastened to an off-center mount attached to an electric motor with an offset plate. When the motor ran, the rearframe hopped up-and-down cyclically, pivoting at the BB. The panniers and load mounted to the rack also bounced up-and-down, and I could closely examine what was going on, unlike when I am riding. ;) Ortlieb hooks/rails do rotate thanks to flexible back-plate stiffeners and vertical bag movement, and compression straps do help. A lot. Enough, I think, to make it a non-problem.
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As I mentioned in my last post above, Ortlieb pannier hook/rail failures appear generally rare, but they can and do occur. Appearing below is a sampling of the most relevant links from my collection related to the subject. Will cross-post to my earlier post on parts failures, http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3955.0
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan. (happy [so far] Ortlieb user)
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There are some links to Ortlieb and other pannier failure modes in my post on parts failures, here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3955.0
Replacing a broken Ortlieb hook (QL-2 rails/hooks):
http://nhfobb.com/2010/05/13/replacing-hooks-on-ortlieb-panniers/
Fellow with a Thorn Sterling going from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego...who has had to replace a number of broken rtlieb hooks:
http://www.thefuegoproject.com/i_gear.html
Ortlieb Rail Failures (sheared bolts)/Ortlieb welded seam split/Mechanical failures while on-tour:
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/page/?page_id=93000
Broken hook on first ride, REI user review:
http://www.rei.com/product/784042/ortlieb-bike-packer-plus-panniers-pair
Complete Ortlieb failures on upgrading to newer model:
http://www.velomad.co.uk/Basics/equipment.htm
Running four hooks on Ortliebs:
http://cyclingabout.com/index.php/2011/11/ortlieb-pannier-bag-tip/ <-- With older mounting system
Running double stabilizer fins:
http://thelazyrandonneur.blogspot.com/2008/07/ortlieb-ql2-double-hook.html
Ortlieb hook adapter insert retention problem/loss:
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=2005186
http://www.woollypigs.com/2010/06/ortlieb-bike-packer-plus-rear/
...and addressing the problem... http://www.woollypigs.com/2011/09/fettling-ortlieb-pannier-hooks/
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/board/message/?thread_id=38352&page=1&nested=0#127860 <-- With older mounting system
http://www.lonelyplanet.com/thorntree/thread.jspa?threadID=1697911 <-- Including a comment by Vikram Banerjee, late of this Forum, who discarded his adapters and wrapped his racks oversize with tape.
Swapping Ortlieb hook inserts:
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/759908-How-do-I-switch-the-hook-inserts-on-Ortlieb-QL1-%28to-fit-a-smaller-diameter-rack%29
Ortlieb pannier comments (Surly LHT Forum, including comments by Vik Banerjee):
http://groups.google.com/group/surlylht/browse_thread/thread/341c902e7504713a/8595d7f77e905ab8
Someone who passionately hates Ortliebs:
http://www.cyclingscholar.com/ortlieb.html
Pannier mounting systems compared:
http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/03/pannier-mounting-systems-compared.html
Holes chewed in Tubus rack by unrestrained/unpadded Ortlieb hooks (photo 1/3 of way down page):
http://homepage.mac.com/isaetterry/pagestoplevel/pageequipment.htm
Pannier reviews and comments on breakage:
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=16803654
Karrimor 'Iberian'pannier hook failure (pull-through; also can affect Vaude):
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2908
Vaude pannier hook failures (pull-through and hook inversion):
Karrimor 'Iberian'pannier hook failure (pull-through; also can affect Vaude):
http://citycyclingedinburgh.info/bbpress/topic.php?id=2908
Solicited opinions (Bike Forum), best pannier mounting scheme (Ortlieb vs Arkel vs Rixen & Kaul):
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php/614767-Mounting-Systems-Ortlieb-vs-Arkel-vs-Rixen-Kraul
Mounting systems compared:
http://www.bicycle-touring-guide.com/bicycle-panniers/
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Hi Dan
thanks that is a lot of help and reading for me.
Thanks Pete
:-)
:)
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Not sure if any of the links above mention this but I shall repeat it if they do.
I read on a post a while ago that the new Ortliebs (Non pvc) offer a different kind of protection than the pvc versions.
One seems more prone to puncture type holes and the other more abrasive/snag type problems. Sorry I can't be more help in which is which but just thought I would put up there in case it wasn't mentioned.
FWIW I have both types of Ortlieb, both have been thoroughly abused, cushioning falls, scraping along walls and generally being hurled in various directions.
I filled all my panniers up with warm soapy water the other day to clean them and all were still water tight.
Only problems I have had are inserts breaking...solution..don't bother with the inserts and beef up the rack with tube,tape,hose or the material of your choice.
Also saves the rack from having paint scraped off it.
PS I will have a carradice saddlebag for sale soon if anyone is interested :)