Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: energyman on July 13, 2012, 04:15:43 pm
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Anyone with an opinion of the above, better still anyone ridden one ?
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Hi Chris!
Some real-world, user reviews on it are available here:
http://www.rei.com/product/828257/scott-sub-10-bike-2012
Unfortunately, only four reviews on this one in the database at present, but the Sub-10 was generally well-reviewed, with some cogent criticisms for things that might -- or might not -- be important, depending on intended use and personal preference.
I tend to look at REI's reviews first, even if I don't intend making a purchase there. Because of their 100% satisfaction guarantee (like MEC and some other firms, especilly co-ops and buying clubs), the reviews tend to be a bit more realistic and balanced than elsewhere. In this case, I looked at the Sub 10 myself just yesterday afternoon (curious, and the bike section of any store draws me like iron filings to a magnet). Having looked at it and played with it on the showroom floor, I'd say these reviews give a reasonable, balanced view overall.
I would have loved to have ridden it for a lark, but that wasn't possible.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Looks like the Gates belt drive is heading for everyday use at a premium over a chain that is bound to fall as the Gates volume increases and consequently the unit cost is driven down.
Can't say I'm impressed with the design of the single-bolt split on the Scott seatstay. Am I missing something or is that all there is? It may look "cool" and simple when new but a few hundred miles of jiggling will soon produce a bit of play, and then more.
Andre Jute
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...the single-bolt split on the Scott seatstay. Am I missing something or is that all there is?
Nope, Andre, that's all there is, from what I could see of it. My thoughts exactly. Sure looks clean and spiff now, but what about later?
A few years back, American publication Bicycling magazine used USD$1,000 as the marker point for an "entry-level bicycle". I would argue it is, in fact, considerably lower when one considers the huge volume of USD$199 pseudo-"Schwinns" sold by Wal-Mart. Still, the Sub-10 is at the lower end of things for a Gates belt-drive bike, as you've observed. I think they'll become more common at lowish price-points.
If this is the case, perhaps the manufacturer doesn't intend the frame to last forever. "Long enough" may be the goal here as with many similar designs. Also yesterday, I was in a LBS and overheard the employee cautioning a buyer that "carbon bikes really only last about 4 years". FOUR YEARS for an expected bicycle frame lifespan?!? Steel is, indeed, real in comparison. My 1970 Raleigh Gran Sports still looks and rides fresh, as does Dad's 1938 Hercules. There may be something to that employee's statement when real-word users get 'hold of carbon bikes. As I was walking out the door, a nice little Subie WRX STi ProRally-lookalike pulled up with a Yakima rack and *two* carbon bikes. The owner had fitted light alu racks to each, using unpadded P-clamps on the seatstays. Bikes and cars both do it for me, so after he entered the store, curiosity got the best of me and I drifted over for a look. The carbon clear-coat around each clamp looked frosty, and I'm guessing the clamps had damaged at least the outer layers of the carbon roving, beneath the clear-coat. Yikes. The clock has already started ticking on those two.
I feel I'm seeing more deliberate temporal dependency in cycling designs -- moving closer and closer to the 18-month designed product life we're seeing in cell phones, cameras, and other high-tech consumer goods. If that is true, then it would account for such things as single clamping bolts on frame-breaks designed for belt access. Sure, it won't last as long, but does it have to (from the mfr's point of view)? Consumers seem to be getting used to the idea of non-durable but still expensive high-tech goods, especially those that are fashion-driven. I know people who traded in their perfectly good black iPhones when the white ones became available, and took a big contract hit to do so (our cell phones here in 'Merka are subsidized by the carrier contracts, rather than purchased outright...unless consumers choose differently and pay out-of-pocket and unlock a phone to put on their contract). They wanted to be different...just like everyone else...and then they weren't different anymore when everyone got a white one. Wait till Apple introduces the...red one.
Apropos nothing much, I guess, but we're beginning to see a fall-off in another durable good hereabouts, the tattoo. They surely last awhile and for a bit they were the hot thing among the young-and-trendy and those who thought they were or wanted to be. Well, now they've become hot among the crowd at the senior-centers, they aren't so cool anymore for the twentysomethings. When Gramma puts a harsh on your Edgy, it ain't so great, and the fastest growing demographic at the removal clinics is...you guessed it...twentysomethings. What's the old design-school saying? "Nothing says Yesterday like something designed for Tomorrow".
Best,
Dan.
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In the UK (at least) Charge Bikes does hub geared models made from steel drilled from luggage racks including mud guards. I got one of their bikes, nice clean design, Tange welded frames of good quality and they are well put together. Hmmmmm good Tektro brakes...hmmm
Charge Tap is much cheaper at £699 and also has an Alfine 8. No disc brakes though. Giant does an Alfine 8 model at £899. Charge Mixer is £1199 so that's not going to help price wise, but it has an Alfine 11 (and disc brakes again). Giant is available everywhere.
I am less knowledgeable on mountain bikes, but there's harder to find hub geared ones too.
So I guess the real question to me would be: How much are you willing to spend extra for a belt drive?
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Have a look at the latest update on the Thorn "Living with a Rohloff" PDF. Andy B has added a good deal about belts on page 16. All of it makes sense as ever.
If your need/expect/accept: low maintenance, low cleaning, shop service, higher cost per mile, lower efficiency they might be for you.
I notice the following in some popular German motorcycles that have had belt drive for the last 10 years or so:
belt pulley sets have to be bigger diameters than chain sprocket sets for similar power outputs
belts are wider than chains for the same power
belts need some tension to reduce skipping and wheel bearings have to be bigger/better as a result and installlation requires tension measuring tools to get within the narrow required range
belts need guards in places chains don't to stop debris locking the back wheel
older belts and pulleys show pronounced tooth wear
belt drive models are slowly being replaced by chain drive models
belts cost a lot more than chains but have remarkably similar lifespans but lower interim care requirements in the real world. Pulleys cost way more than sprockets
In my Utopia there would be a fully enclosed bicycle chain case just like that found on many old Eastern bloc motorcycles. All the impecunious lumpenproleteriat rider had to do was open it every so often and put the flung off grease back on to the chain for re-use. Adjustment or replacement was rarely, and cleaning never, required. Simples. And not so far from Andre's Utopia either.
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So I guess the real question to me would be: How much are you willing to spend extra for a belt drive?
Or how long you want to wait for the price to fall to some reasonable level.
belts cost a lot more than chains but have remarkably similar lifespans but lower interim care requirements in the real world. Pulleys cost way more than sprockets
My Utopia Kranich is the outcome of my longtime interest in a low-maintenance bicycle, a happy meeting of a personal interest with a manufacturer who had the same obsession. But from the beginning I wondered if these belts weren't a bit limiting. Essentially you take the gearing the manufacturer gives you because it is impossible/difficult/expensive to change gearing with a belt transmission. It's not like shortening a chain, or adding a few links.
And I'm not sure, looking at the crud toothed belts pick up in automobile engines, that a belt will be able to stay clean without a chain case or at least a cover, especially for people who cycle in street clothes, as I do. This summer has been too miserable, but normally in the summer I wear khakis or cream trousers, so a spotless transmission is essential.
In my Utopia there would be a fully enclosed bicycle chain case just like that found on many old Eastern bloc motorcycles. All the impecunious lumpenproleteriat rider had to do was open it every so often and put the flung off grease back on to the chain for re-use. Adjustment or replacement was rarely, and cleaning never, required. Simples. And not so far from Andre's Utopia either.
The proprietary Country chain case on my Kranich cost about as much a complete Csech motorbike in Czeckoslovakia in the year the Wall came down, and lasted about one-fiftieth the expected lifespan of a Czech motorbike. It is just too lightly built (and fragile in conception, though that gave me no trouble) for what despite its luxurious appointments is basically a touring/commuter/utility bike, a sort of upmarket Raven for Germans with sensitive backsides. I replaced the Country with a Hebie Chainglider which is giving stout service. And yes, I'm running an experiment in which a Rohloff sprocket/Surly stainless chain rung/KMC X8 chain are running inside the Chainglider without any extra oil, just with the factory lube on the chain. The experiment is currently at 1100km, and there is no extraordinary wear, or indeed any wear whatsoever, visible or measurable, and nothing (oil, metal fragments) flung off the chain into the Chainglider. At this stage I'm making no prediction about how long before I feel the need to add oil, except that it appears that the system will easily make 1600km/1000m, at which point I'll decide whether to continue with the experiment.
It does seem, unless something goes wrong, that I'm heading towards a conclusion that a Hebie Chainglider with a chain running inside is a match in cleanliness for a bare belt drive, and more easily adapted to the cyclist's style or the terrain.
Andre Jute
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Thanks for all that.
Now I've found the Revolution Belter '12 and it is a lot cheaper but single speed
[ http://www.edinburghbicycle.com/products/revolution-belter-12 ]
Time to make ones mind up.
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I've a fixie at 42/16, one gear is generally fine if...
You don't expect flat out sprinting, as the gear you need to be able to tackle wind/hills will fall below your optimum (unless you are The King Of Spinners) :)
42/16 is too light for me, so will get a bigger ring in which is easy as it's a chain one but...it might be worth checking what your best gear is, if you only had one, as you can't change it as easily with a belt... (see Hobbes comment)
Edinburgh cycle collective is known for good bikes, so you can't really go wrong.
If you must have a belt... ;)
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The Internet being an amazing font of information................
SPOT bikes do belt drives. Anyone out there have one ?
[They don't do Rohloffs though. :( ]
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I now ride a belt drive bike and you know, it's just like riding a bike but with the advantage of not getting my trousers oily or having to maintain the chain and the other oily bits.
Its just the name that is a bit naff............
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Which one did you get? :)
And how is belt tensioning etc?
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I bought the SPOT ACME from Tim at Sideways Cycles of Alsager. The belt tensioning system is rather neat (see the SPOT website http://spotbrand.com/bikes/product-page/acme/ for details - bit technical for me). Tim advised that re-tensioning is highly unlikely, not like chains. The belt has a groove along the centre to anchor it to the cogs something I havn't seen mentioned on European belt drive bikes.
Done a couple of short rides and it feels nearly as good as my RST but very much quieter.
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For that money it'd better be nearly as good as a Raven Tour ;D
I am still not sold on the belt drive principle due to the much higher price of the bikes (less common, so lower stock, so more expensive...) and my chain driven bikes are all very silent (thorn xtc, derailleur, crappy Raleigh with 3 speed SA) the only noise I get is the freewheel on the SA and the chain on the Fixie needs replaced, after I took a link out.
But it the bike looks great and hub gears are fantastic for commuting purposes due to being bomb proof, low maintenance etc.
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Belts will come and go I think but I wanted to have one before they go again. A couple of years ago I test rode a titanium £4k bike and all I could think of was that the saddle was agony. After all it was just another bike..........
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4K bike with £4 saddle: NO GO
£4 bike with 4K saddle: YES PLEASE
;D
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Hi
I have a Scott Sub 10 - 2013 model - bright, bright green. Purchased it in November 2012. Love the belt drive. So smooth, no problem changing gear. Quiet and easy to ride. I get to work and I feel like I have not ridden at all. Great bike. Would not look at another bike again!
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Welcome to the forum! :)
CTC reviewed a belt drive bike and they liked it, but moaned about it maybe being less efficient that derailleurs/chain. But did recommend for city driving no doubt.
(well this calls for a scientific test...two bikes all the same but test it with a chain then test it with a belt ;) )
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looking at a belt drive trek in local bike shop really nice .
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They sound handy but they're rather expensive ATM.
Saves having to buy a new chain once a year/every two years (salt kills them badly even with lots of oiling) but that's £10 a year, takes a loooooooooooooong time before you recoup that money compared to belt bike prices atm.
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Dan did a goodly piece on Belt Drives on January 5th with a link to a Bike Radar efficiency test.
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/chain-or-belt-drive-which-is-faster-36074/
I like mine ! Just the naff name.
Changed the web link as posted the wrong one - sorry.
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Hi, I bought the belt drive sub 10 aboiut 2 weeks ago
The bike is literally used 24/7 with my job.
I had a suspension fork and dynohub fitted so the bike is always ready and a smoother ride on the terrible street's we now have to ride on.
This sub supercedes my last sub 10 which performed great but did in my opinion miss a granny gear.
The new sub with its belt drive gives me the granny gear I was missing at the expense of the not so often used high gear.
The belt drive itself is a dream, so quiet I have to ring my bell more often on shared paths - honestly!
All the talk of belts slipping and clogging just doesn't happen. I have been out in the heaviest rain this last few days and through parkland paths both made up and dirt with no problems at all.
With regards to effort verus a chain, well the belt drive is a stiffer drive if turning the pedals back by hand but not noticeable when riding.
If you are an engineer in a lab I am sure you may well be able to come up with a figure that says a chain is better but in reality we are out in the wind climbing hills and carrying loads so it does not count as far as I am concerned.
Sub 10 with its belt drive 10 out of 10 for me.
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My next upgrade wih my Thorn is going to be ftting a new chaindrive with Surly SS ring and Hebie Chainglider. I am expecting improvements in chain cleanliness and life. I really can't see that much of an advantage in a belt-drive when compared to this, just a very large added cost for a special bike frame and high change-over cost for the belt. The reasons for that cost just don't seem to be there. Silent operation? Nup, not worth the cost. Unbreakable? Don't think so and I don't break chains.
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Hi, Yes, unless you are planning on changing bikes the cost of achieving belt drive on an existing frame cant be reclaimed.
But if you are out for a new bike then this has a lot going for it.
I have been riding daily now for all of 40 years and tried a lot lof bikes out in that time with a lot of frame types and chain drives and have only snapped 2 chains.
I was very cautious about belt drive myself having spent nearly a year looking into it. When I read about the guy who rode around the world on a belt drive bike and only changed the belt once I thought thats a fair trial for it.
So my own doubts were lessened when the head mechanic and assistant mechanic both individualy said in the bike shop on picking up the bike what a beautiful bike to ride it was, amongst the top ones and yes that was after I had paid my money!
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Hi John!
Welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum!
Congratulations on your new bicycle; nothing like a new bike, and this is a Lovely!
Thanks also for your impressions of how belt drive works for you in daily use. Though not currently used by Thorn, it is always interesting to hear how "the latest" operates in practice, and we're seeing more belts in use today than ever before. Locally, Co-Motion is employing them as tandem timing chains, which can be a pretty severe duty, and they've reported no problems.
I think for my use in sometimes largely off-road expeditions, a belt might not fare so well; a few unnoticed pencil-sized twigs flipped into my Rohloff drivetrain and were neatly cut in two by the chain rear sprocket with no harm on my last test-tour. However, like most things it is probably horses for courses, and the belt surely seems to be working ideally for your use. A belt-drive bike passed me on the bike path yesterday, and I was astounded at how silent it was. Really, the only noise was a quiet hissing from the tires and that was all. I asked the owner about the trouser clip she was wearing, and she replied it was partly out of habit and partly because she had found dirt could accumulate on the belt sides in winter months and she didn't want to risk soiling her light-colored trousers now it was summer. Hers was a commuter bike with front basket, upright position, mudguards, battery lights, and matching floral-pattern saddle cover and rear panniers. The panniers obscured her rear hub, but I think it was likely an Alfine. She said she rode this more than her previous bike simply because it ran cleaner and required less of what she called "nuisance maintenance" (oiling the chain). She's found something that makes her riding more likely than before, not a bad thing.
Andre's not alone in his goal of a maintenance-free bicycle, something that can pay dividends for all of us, no matter how we get there!
Best,
Dan. (...who wants a 36T Hebie Chainglider more than ever)
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I think I recall Sarah Outen using a Santos Belt drive on her ride to Japan from UK. I don't recall her mentioning any problems so, considering the nature of such a long ride that perhaps is testimony to the longevity and reliability of belt drives. When you consider that Harley Davidson have been using belts for years perhaps its we cyclists who are late to the party.
Sarah is here: http://www.sarahouten.com/
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I think I recall Sarah Outen using a Santos Belt drive on her ride to Japan from UK. I don't recall her mentioning any problems so, considering the nature of such a long ride that perhaps is testimony to the longevity and reliability of belt drives. When you consider that Harley Davidson have been using belts for years perhaps its we cyclists who are late to the party.
Sarah is here: http://www.sarahouten.com/
Hi I have over the years replaced a number of Harley Davidson drive Belts! why ???
Because in New Zealand we have Tar chip roads and the chip's put a hole thought the belt (when the chip get into the middle of sprockets/belt :o all is OK because Harley Davidson (boat anchor's) come with 200,000km replacement :P
So do I think a Belt dive is a good idea ??? Yes and No..
Yes for around town and from Singlespeed Racing! But No for around the World cycle touring ??? Why because on Motorcycles (Harley Davidson are not the only ones to use a Belt drive) with Belt Drives they have more bearings to take the higher loading from having to run with a high belt tension.
I'll stick to a good singlespeed chain and lube and clean it.
Happy Riding :-*
Pete