Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: 6527richardm on November 09, 2010, 07:51:08 pm
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I am in the process of deciding which Raven to buy and am heading towards the Raven Tour. I will use it for long day rides and for lightish weight touring but may progress to longer tours.
Am I right in the bike choice?
If I am which upgrades would you recommend currently looking at XT hub, Brooks saddle, upgraded tyres and Ergon grips with bar ends.
Is there a need to change the chain set to Deore?
I currently ride amongst others a Galaxy and have not run out of gears on it and think I will need either a 42 or 44 chainring any thought welcome.
Finally any views on needing the dynamo hub and if so what are the benefits.
Thanks
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I have been going through the same agonizing process. We have similar goals for riding, although I will probably be doing a little more off-road on hard packed trails. I have chosen the RST because I want as light a bike as possible for the majority of my riding. I think the RST will be more responsive. I will upgrade rims, tires, and chain.
If I do occasionally do heavy touring on it, I'll get a trailer..
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Sorry - I had to ride off in mid-thought. I would also get the black XT hub. At the cost this is a bike you'll want for a long time. I wouldn't bother with the dynamo hub. It would be nice if you are in the middle of nowhere. From what I've read, the light isn't easily detachable. If you do rig something, then it is still fairly large to carry about. Plus, I find I often use my bike light as a flashlight. If you leave it on, then it's just something else for the pond scum to steal.
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I have been coming to the same conclusion about the dynamo hub and do not think I will include this in the purchase. The problem with the XT hub s that you can not get it in black but I do not think that Will bother me too much.
Main problem is still whether to go for the Tour or the sport version I guess the best way will be to try and ride both but I already have a road bike so will be using the Raven mainly for touring and slower day rides when I want more comfort.
The other dilemma is the size of the chainring everything I look at seems to point me to the 38 but my instincts tell me it will be undergeared!
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If you can get to SJS and try one or two you will be able to choose what suits you.
Failing that, SJS are very good at changing whatever is not right for you and if all else fails the Rohloff bikes come with a 100 day satisfaction or return warranty.
Have fun choosing and some great rides after.
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I have been coming to the same conclusion about the dynamo hub and do not think I will include this in the purchase. The problem with the XT hub s that you can not get it in black but I do not think that Will bother me too much.
Main problem is still whether to go for the Tour or the sport version I guess the best way will be to try and ride both but I already have a road bike so will be using the Raven mainly for touring and slower day rides when I want more comfort.
The other dilemma is the size of the chainring everything I look at seems to point me to the 38 but my instincts tell me it will be undergeared!
I'd go for the RST every time! Unless you intend to do serious touring, you'll pay a weight penalty and the rst is such a lovely, rideable bike.
38T chainring? Unless you live in the alps, I reckon you'll be seriously undergeared! I found a 42T ring to be way under what I wanted. But then again, I live in East Anglia!!!!!
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Tyre size & load carrying capability may help decide one way or another - If you favour getting off the beaten track / off road & favour tyres greater than 1.75" the Raven Tour would be more logical - especially if wanting to have greater load carrying potential. I have a RST which is great for lightweight touring, (careful) rough stuff & the daily commute..
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Thanks for the advice I agree about the 38 and think I will go for 44 or even 46.
I understand what you mean about the weight difference but I am torn between that and being able to put on the larger tyres (just in case I need them) and from what I understand the additional comfort of the Tour.
Does anyone happen to know the weight difference between the Tour and the Sport in the basic build?
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Does anyone happen to know the weight difference between the Tour and the Sport in the basic build?
No, but it will be tiny, half a bottle of water, I doubt any more.
It's not just weight that makes a bike faster, position has the largest affect, aided by geometry. The differences on paper can look minor and subtle, yet make a big difference in the ride.
The Raven tour is a lovely bike for lovely rides, going out and enjoying the scenery. You can do incredible distances on it in extreme comfort, you can ride fast, it's just a lot harder than on a bike that's designed for that. If I didn't need the load capacity I'd get the RST, though the best thing is to gt a ride on both.
I wouldn't consider a bike without a dynamo and fitted lights anymore than I'd consider a car without. A bike to me has to be an ever ready form of transport and it's only with a dynamo this becomes reality. Plenty of good bolt on LED lights, they're not really a target for thieves, they wouldn't know what to do with them. And if you tour you can charge all sorts of stuff from the hub during the day.
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No, but it will be tiny, half a bottle of water, I doubt any more.
It's not just weight that makes a bike faster, position has the largest affect, aided by geometry. The differences on paper can look minor and subtle, yet make a big difference in the ride.
So can the Raven Tour be just as quick as the Sport if skinny tyres are put on it? If there's next to no weight difference, why is the RST a quicker bike?
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Thats my RST with the drop-bars in the gallery section. Its still very new to me. The weight of it as pictured, bag, small tool kit & pedals, ~15.4 kg. Its a lovely bike to ride, pretty much exactly what I wanted, just slower than expected. The main diff between RT & RST is the frameset. The RST is a nice 853 conical tubing, the RT is a heavier frame. I'd expect the weight diff to be very slight and the RT to feel less sprightly/lively.
The following is my opinion of the RST: much of it would be applicable to an RT also.
The RST is that its a lovely slow bike to ride. I have other derailler bikes, a titanium and a thorn audax: These are both a lot faster even though at 13 kg (also has dynohub) the audax is not much lighter. The speed diff to my derailler bikes was a bit of a shock to me. I am hoping a fair bit of this is the newness of the rohloff, although these will always be a bit draggy compared to deraillers. Put into context, on my local ~50 miler, I could jog round very comfortably in approx 3:15, on the RST, I'm 15-20 mins slower and it feels a lot harder. I dont know if this is helpful: I spec'd 40*16 gearing to give my my nice gear 11. I find that spot on and am riding in gear 10 & 11 mostly. Its very hard work to try to ride fast compared to my other bikes, as richardm noted. It'll carry all I will ever need: I'd happily load > the conservative "recommended limits".
I am very glad I went for the RST, despite the price. Its a lovely ride. Any slower and I'd start to get p1ssed off with it, or change my mindset which I dont seem able to do !
I really like the carbide rims. I dont like the brakeset behind the fork. In fact I think its the worst point on the bike. Light braking causes juddering of the forks just now, I hope it bed in more. I cannot think why you'd opt for a shimano chainset over the thorn. I've only ridden about 500 km on it so far, so all of the above are very much first impressions.
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Thanks again for all the advice I am going to go to Somerset and try both to see what I think, my initial leaning was towards the tout but now I am not so sure, it is unlikely that I will need to carry large amounts it was more that as I expect to be doing 80 to a 100 Miles a day that I thought the tour may be more comfortable for the longer distances.
Does anyone have views on the chainring size?
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Does anyone have views on the chainring size?
This really depends on what kind of terrain you intend to ride on. My RST came from the original owner with a 42T ring and 16t sprocket, and while I'm sure this is great for slow, steady riding in the pennines, it was almost unusable in East Anglia where the roads are flatter. You need to consider your gear 11 which is the 'direct rive' gear, as if this is too under or over-geared then your riding will not be comfortable.
I graduated to a 46t, and now have a 48t which I bought secondhand off the forum. This is probably too high for most peoples' tastes, but suits me. I like to ride my RST as fast as possible!
I would read what Sheldon Brown has to say about gearing with the Rohloff, as it may be helpful as it has a gearing chart:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff-impressions.html (http://www.sheldonbrown.com/harris/rohloff-impressions.html)
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Good luck with your choice. I'd be interested in hearing of your experience as I won't have the luxury of trying out the bikes.
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So can the Raven Tour be just as quick as the Sport if skinny tyres are put on it? If there's next to no weight difference, why is the RST a quicker bike?
I don't know the answer to that, well not one I could demonstrate.
I can offer an opinion ;)
When I get on a bike, any bike, the way it feels, position, responsiveness, handling. comfort, all contribute to the way I ride it. As an example - I used to commute 14 miles each way, on the way home there's a long drag of a hill, on the Raven I'd sit back and spin up it, on the Audax bike I'd go up in a higher gear with a lot more effort. I could have spun up on the Audax bike, it has low enough gears, I could have put more effort in on the Raven, I don't know why I rode these bikes differently, that's just what felt right.
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Thanks for all the advice and also the link to Sheldon Brown.
I agree that it is not just the weight that dictates I also ride my bikes differently.
I also intend to load up my panniers with enough for 10 days and see what they weigh this should also inform the decision but it will not be made until I have ridden both
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Rich,
I've had both, 1st a sport tour and now a tour. I think I recall Andy B saying that there's about 8 oz difference in the frame weights.
I found the tyre size restriction of the RST the limiting factor for me. It's ok if you only want to use 1.5" Hi-Roads, or 1.75" Tourguards, but I found the availability of other tyres limited.
I did not find the RST particularly sporty, compared to my other 700C bikes and I don't find the RT much different than the RST in this respect.
Im currently running 2.0 Marathon supremes with a 38:16 ratio. Unless your riding it as fast as you can I find this fine and can ride at 20 mph with it, how much faster will you/can you go? I'd sooner run out out gears going downhill, than going up.
I'm on a 586s (I'm 6'2") and find that with 1.5" tyres the wheels look out of proportion to the frame size, though obviously this is just down to looks, but who wouldn't want to be happy with the look. 2" tyres looks far more in proportion in my eyes.
Good luck and enjoy!
Steve
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I am reasonably certain that the weight difference between the RST and RT is nearer 1Kg, though Thorn are conspicuous in making this information easy to find - regardless of whether I'm right or wrong, it would good if Stutho could maybe put the definitive answer in his comparison chart?
Admittedly, I can't make direct comparison never having tried the RT, but I think the "sportiness" is in comparison to the RT, rather than an attempt to market it as some form of racing bike - from recollection the RST brochure clearly states light touring as its forte.
This in mind, I certainly wouldn't put anything wider than 1.5 on the RST as this would seem to completely defeat the purpose of having the RST . As for tyre width and looks, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder but think my RST looks absolutely fine with 1.5's.
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2197.0
There have been occassions when I've thought the RT might have been a better choice given load capabilities but my experience suggests that the RST would be good for say a 2 week summertime camping tour with some light off-roading, and has served me perfectly well in pretty all situations so far.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/14081381@N03/1434639976/sizes/l/in/set-72157602137097920/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14081381@N03/1434639976/sizes/l/in/set-72157602137097920/)
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RE: 8oz frame weight differences:
I suspect any further weight differences will be between the forks - the RST forks will be lighter than those fitted to the Raven Tour...
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Steve
From what you are saying there is little to choose between riding the 2 bikes in which case I may be better going for the Tour as it will give me the option of putting the wider tyres on it.
I was concerned that I may find the Tour to slow but if that is not the case then I will rethink.
If I get the tour I will have the option of picking tyres to suit the riding and from what I understand it would also be better on tracks. I suppose it will come down to how they feel when I go to Somerset.
Nice pictures Fred i now want to take delivery of a Raven bike.
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richardm,
I own a RST. My wife owns a RT in the same frame size(which I often borrow). I find the two bikes VERY different in character. Now admittedly they are set up different. The biggest difference being that there are drops on the RST and risers on the RT. However even allowing for these differences the Bikes (to me) feel very different. The RST demands to be peddled harder! I know this sounds peculiar but I swear that it true! It maybe due to the frame angles, or it may simple be black magic, but something about the bike makes me want to ride it harder and hence it goes faster!
The RT is FAR more relaxed and not only in the peddling stakes. Cornering on the RT is like you are on rails, while on the RST you have to work at. Ultimately the RST has greater dexterity but it has less stability so it demands more of you attention. The RST is lighter than the RT but the time you have fitted your full panniers is it really going to make any difference? You can take more load on the RT but I don't find the lower limit a problem on the RST.
So which to choose? Neither bike is better but each is better at different things. If you want a bike for day touring, fitness or commuting then go for the RST but if you want a bike for multi day touring then go for the RT.
In short I love my RST. My wife loves here RT. I am sure which ever bike you chose you will love it!
Hope this helps
StuTho
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Whether we wish to admit it or not, I think that we have all come to a general consensus. When you get off the train at Bridgwater station, you should find the nearest hostelry and order up a not inconsiderable quantity of the best local bitter. Then, having supped at your leisure, proceed to SJSC, produce your chequebook with a flourish that only an out-of-towner could manage, and forthwith buy one of both!!! ;)
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My RT has gearing of 40x16. That gives a range of 18" - 95".
18" is extremely low, it puts you on the point of wheelying on hills when you actually need it and I've never used it apart from on loaded camping trips.
It's a Mountain Bike ratio.
95" is just about OK for a top gear but you can "spin out" on long descents but I've done 10,000 miles on this setup so it must be OK.
If I never intended to ride with loaded panniers again then I'd gear it up a bit to 44x16 (20"-105") or maybe higher, that would also move 11th gear (the most efficient) to a 71" gear, similar to my Single Speed.
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Richard,
I've sent you a PM.
rgds,
Steve
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I briefly considered an RST, but went for an RT because I might want to put on tyres wider than 1¾".
I've gone for 38 × 16 gearing, and fully expect to use the 17.2" low gear slogging up the South Downs: off road as well as on.
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Steve
thanks for the email it was helpful I came to the same conclusion.
Thanks also for all the other advice I agree about the tyre size
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Hi Richard,
No worries,
Cheers,
Steve
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I can't help you on the Raven/RST choice (en enviable dilemma!) but a couple of general points are worth making.
1. A hub dynamo is a safety feature. There is no need to remove the lamp, which is permanently bolted to the bike. No one will steal it because it is useless to most people. Like others here, I won't have a bike without a hub dynamo. You don't need to spend on the SON; the Shimano hub dynamo is very good too (I have both on different bikes).
2. Fatter tyres are a comfort feature. They are not necessarily slower than skinny tyres, especially if you go for slicks or semi-slicks.
3. Better to run out of gears going downhill rather than uphill. I have 16x38 gears with 60-622 tyres on my Rohloff bike (just about mountain bike gearing) and I daily ride up a hill in front of my house where younger sprinters push. I live in hilly countryside, so I rarely get a good ride on the flat, but then I just use 14th gear rather than 11th (which is the 1:1 gear) and sacrifice a little efficiency for speed. In town and on slight inclines I use 11th and that's actually the gear that I'm in most. It's not a big deal if on a touring/long day ride bike you run out of gears on the downhills; you should do a little spectating anyway!
Andre Jute
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3. Better to run out of gears going downhill rather than uphill. I have 16x38 gears with 60-622 tyres on my Rohloff bike (just about mountain bike gearing) and I daily ride up a hill in front of my house where younger sprinters push. I live in hilly countryside, so I rarely get a good ride on the flat, but then I just use 14th gear rather than 11th (which is the 1:1 gear) and sacrifice a little efficiency for speed. In town and on slight inclines I use 11th and that's actually the gear that I'm in most. It's not a big deal if on a touring/long day ride bike you run out of gears on the downhills; you should do a little spectating anyway!
My 16x38 setup just shipped out of Bridgwater today! Here is what my neighborhood looks like:
http://www.roberts-1.com/bikehudson/r/m/climbs/steep/index.htm
I expect I will use the full range!
Jim
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I shan't be moving into the Hudson Valley! I wish you joy of your new Thorn, Jim. Pity about the winter just when you get your next bike, but you'll need a little time to set it up just so for those long spring rides.
Andre Jute
Anybody ask me yet what I want for Christmas?
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Pity about the winter just when you get your next bike
I have studded winter tires waiting here for the bike! (And just how long will those customs people hold on to it??)
One of those steep rides is practically out my door step. I have lots of friends living up on top of the hill, 1200 feet up the main road & then more up some rough side roads. I think I'll have the perfect machine!
Jim
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(And just how long will those customs people hold on to it??)
I just looked in my crystal ball: you'll definitely have it for Christmas and, to prove they're human, customs officials won't even charge you double the import duty.
AJ
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Richard,
So, have you come to the conclusion? (RST/ RT) Have you tried them?
'Cause I'm facing the same problem.
Regards,
Cedric
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Cedric
I am booked in next week so have not made a decision yet but currently think I will go for the Raven Tour purely for the extra versatility and additional tyre width that can be fitted.
Main problem is still which set up to go for I was thinking 46x16 but now am incling towards either 42x16 or possibly 44x16. I will let you know once I have placed the order which bike etc I have gone for.
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Hi All,
I am having the same hard time deciding over RST/RT don't plan to do any heavy tours so RST might be best, It will be used for day rides hopfully 75-100 miles with the odd weekend B&B or light camping, with 20 -30 mile evening rides, trying to justify spendind this amount for by 50th birthday is this over kill?
I live in Wemyss-Bay Scotland would be cycling round Arran, Bute Tighnabruaich area
lots of Hills, I would like the gearing on the RST/RT to be a go a bit lower than my 21 speed Trek 800 MB so what chain set do I get, also what handelbars would be best.
Think I am suffering from info overload
Thanks for you help
Alastair.
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Welcome to the club. There is a learning curve. I am planning to buy one for my 60th, so overkill maybe... then again it is more difficult to find a deep fried Mars Bar here :) Have fun!! If you go back through all the posts, you will find an abundance of info.
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pt88, I was over dunoon / otterferry on my RST at the weekend. I was down to gear 2 or 3 going up otterferry, on a 40*16. I've got drop bars. I find them slower and heavier than I expected, and am glad I err'd on the side of lower gears. There are 2 considerations for drop-bars, that you need to be ok with:
1) shifting is obviously less easy than with flat bars.
I am ok with this: I can shift well enough but maybe I dont shift so often
2) the shifter and/or cables can get in the way
I've hit my knee a few times on mine, but i'm learning not to or to keep knees slightly outwards. I think a bar-bag would push the cables back.
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Cedric
I am booked in next week so have not made a decision yet but currently think I will go for the Raven Tour purely for the extra versatility and additional tyre width that can be fitted.
Main problem is still which set up to go for I was thinking 46x16 but now am incling towards either 42x16 or possibly 44x16. I will let you know once I have placed the order which bike etc I have gone for.
:) Thanks Richard,
I'm also inclined on RT to have more possibilities in one bike.
My personal opinion (agree with Paulson) at least not less then 44 or 46 would be better. My old Bianchi has 44 and it is not so fast on roads as I would like it to be. Just could not imagine what I would do on 38.
Also it would be interesting to know about the sizes in comparison with your height.
I would go for green or red colour :)
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you'll definitely have it for Christmas
those reindeer are on the move:
23 Nov 2010 13:21:53 New York Jfk Airport Shipment Awaiting Physical Release From Customs Controlled Area.
23 Nov 2010 11:00:44 New York Jfk Airport Shipment Received At Transit Point.
23 Nov 2010 09:40:00 New York Jfk Airport Held Customs, Awaiting Clearance Instructions From Receiver.
23 Nov 2010 15:20:00 Liege Euro Hub Connection Delay. Recovery Actions Underway.
22 Nov 2010 14:44:12 Liege Euro Hub Shipment In Transit.
20 Nov 2010 03:58:55 Northampton Hub Shipment In Transit.
20 Nov 2010 00:25:10 Northampton Hub Shipment Received At Transit Point.
19 Nov 2010 21:01:00 Basildon Shipment In Transit.
19 Nov 2010 18:27:21 Basildon Shipment In Transit.
19 Nov 2010 18:27:08 Basildon Shipment Received At Origin Depot.
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Lets hope theres no printer cartridges on board to delay it.
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Not to mention underwear, shoes, or a guy having a fit because someone wants to touch his junk.
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those reindeer are on the move:
Okay then! My Nomad arrived around 4 PM and I had it on the road about 7 PM - just around the block to see what's loose! This was my first experience with a threadless headset & I am sure still not sure I have it set up right. I plan to set up a phone call with the folks in Bridgwater to review the details.
I decided to move my Time ATAC pedals over from my old bike. Rooting around my various parts boxes, I found two spare sets of Time cleats. I like these pedals - might as well keep using them! Turns out they have a 6mm Allen interface - I kept trying to get my 15 mm pedal wrench to fit, but it just wouldn't go!
It's serious night time here at 7PM - wow, that SON dynamo plus Edelux light really lights things up! Very nice!
Just around the corner there is a sharp little hill - studying the terrain info in google maps, it looks like about a 13% grade. I got the 38 tooth chain ring with the 16 tooth sprocket and thank you very much it didn't bother me in the least to have that low low gear. I will get plenty use out of those bottom gears around here.
Tomorrow I think I will fiddle around some with the headset spacers to lower the handlebars a touch. I asked for some extra steering tube length just in case, but the present set-up is a bit more upright than I like.
Probably the biggest puzzle in assembling the bike was figuring out how to hook up the dynamo-powered rear light. I found the Edelux instruction sheet & that reassured me that somewhere there was a connection on the light itself - OK, right behind the connection from the light to the dynamo, sure enough! What fun to ride and see the rear light working!
I expect I will just gradually work my up in distance, just to be sure that I haven't got anything hooked up wrong that might fall apart in some awkward remote spot.
Jim
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Congratulations. Enjoy!
Some small points.
By all means call the Bridgewater and ask about setting up the threadless headset. They probably like hearing enthusiasm occasionally.
As well, make a point of discovering the late Sheldon Brown's netsite if you haven't already. He gives good instructions on just about everything, including setting up a threadless headset. What little he doesn't tell you, you can get from the Park Tools site.
I have the cheap (er) cousin of your Edelux, the BUMM Cyo. Its MBTF is longer than you will live, however young you are. Switch it on and don't bother to switch it off again; it's a good daylight running lamp. I also run a BUMM rear light, wired as yours, permanently on.
In addition you need blinkies front and back. I use an inexpensive small blinking torch at the front, selected simply because it promised more hours of battery life than anything else available back then. At the back the recognized top blinkie for reasonable money is the Cateye TL-LD1100. The batteries last 200 hours, so I just tie it to the rear rail of the rack with three tiewraps, two around it and the rails, over a third one lenghtwise across the lamp to keep the battery cover/switch panel on the lamp.
Thanks for sharing the excitement of your new bike.
Andre Jute
Now when is my birthday again?
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JimK,
That sounds splendid, you will get many happy comfortable miles riding out of your Thorn.
Adjusting a threadless headset is just a matter of trial, loosen the stem bolts and tighten the top bolt until the bearing shake is just gone then tighten the stem bolts and recheck. You may have to do this more than once to get it just right.
A useful gadget is a locking headset spacer, (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/problem-solvers-locking-headset-spacer-for-1-1-8-inch-prod18246/) if you put one at the bottom of the stack it holds the headset bearing adjustment in place while you try out different stems or spacers.
Julian.
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Okay then! My Nomad arrived around 4 PM
Hi Jim !
Congratulations!
Share some picks, please, in Gallery
Regards,
Cedric
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Well I have a new Raven Tour. I had a catalyst which I really liked but wanted a bit more carrying capacity so sold it and bought a Raven tour together with a dynohub, CSS rims and a Black Rohloff.
In many ways it's a lovely bike but I don't yet prefer it to the Catalyst which seemed a bit faster and lively. The steering on the Raven Tour is more road bike like- smoother and more precise but the Catalyst was more 'fun'. The RT also has a Thorn rack which is superb but I think very rigid which may contribute to the main thing that concerns me a bit which is a lot of shimmy when I ride no hands. It is worse when I use small but heavy panniers which don't flop about but seem to act as a rigid counterweight on the rear and set up the shimmy resonance.
I am not sure what to do about it- any one else get shimmy when going no hands?
Otherwise the bike is great and very comfortable and I am getting to like it! I just wonder if there is a solution to the shimmy.
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I have now ordered my bike I went to the shop and tried both the RT and the RST and on the test ride I could feel little difference but was advised that with large panniers on the RST I may clip them so went for the RT with CSS Grizzly wheels.
I now just have to wait for it to be built depending when that it I may get the train and get used to the bike by riding it home over a couple of days.
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Cpngrats on your decision to become a Thorn owner - I think you've probably made the right choice ref panniers. I've never had any issues with medium sized panniers on the RST but if you're concerned about carrying fully loaded large panniers, then the RT is probably the better choice ref the loads you'll be looking to carry and its ability to handle them well. Enjoy!