Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Schornsteinfeger on November 09, 2009, 09:02:20 pm
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Are all leather saddles noisy?
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mine ain't brooks b 17.what knid of noise are you talking about.
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I sense some kind of a vegetarian joke coming on ::) ;D
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My B17Ti used to squeak a bit from where the rails met the nose clamp - I put a bit of white grease on the interface - no noise now for several thousand miles.
Stuart
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What works as well is to spray the rails/clamp area with wd40
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only if you sit on them.
ians
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I have 2 Brooks saddles, a B17 and a Champion Flyer Special, both squeak :-[
What I do to help the noise is to rub Proofide into the underside of the leather and around all parts of the saddle that comes into contact with the mounting frame, including the threads of the tensioning bolt.
Then get a hair dryer on a low setting and get the Proofide to melt and run into the gaps between saddle and mounting frame. This will need doing every now and then, eventually curing your problem (for 6 months or so when it will return again :D)
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As Stutho does, i spray the metal tensioning parts at the front of the saddle with white Lithium grease. It works and lasts for a good six months.
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As with others, I have noticed the occasional creak from my Brooks saddles, but a spot of light oil usually did the trick. The source for most of my creaks was the peened connection between the saddle rail uprights and the rear flange plate. I only need to apply a small drop of oil at the rail-flange junction annually to take care of the problem.
Of greater concern was an increase in the number of noises early last Spring on one of my chrome-railed B.17s. I was out on a long ride when I stopped to change my jacket, lightly bumped the saddle with an elbow, and was astonished to see th entire saddle cover and front rails and nose tensioner fall to the ground at my feet.
It was a complete free-fracture of the chromed rails immediately rearward of my SR LaPrade seatpost clamp. Fortunately it was not later in my ride, when my route would have taken me on a street path situated between two heavily-traveled car traffic lanes and a freeway on-ramp entry. If it had happened there, I probably would not be writing this now. As it was, I had to ride the last 20 miles home standing and leaning into a headwind, and incurred bilateral achilles tendonitis as a result of my unusual riding position.
Such fractures aren't unheard of with older, chrome-railed Brooks saddles, but mine gave no sign or warning, beyond a slight increase in creaking immediately before the complete free-fracture of both rails. My seatpost was not of the "rail-biter" type Brooks warns against, and was nicely radiused where the rails exited. Instead, I think the problem was largely due to hydrogen embrittlement at the time of chroming; failing to heat the newly-chromed pieces enough to release the hydrogen within a short time of chroming results in the hydrogen becoming an inclusion at the molecular level, leaving the steel brittle. The later models with powder-coated rails are immune to the problem, though it is still conceivable as a byproduct of the process used on models with copper-plated rails.
My saddle also had about 35,000 miles on it, so I am sure accumulated stress and fatigue were a major factor as well.
I do think there may have been an additional factor, and this can also cause noise in leather saddles -- Brooks saddles don't allow for much setback on frames with modern upright geometry, especially when coupled with short-setback seatposts. To get a good position with modern seatposts and upright geometry, most people shove their Brooks saddles back on the rails as far as they will go, cantilevering their weight over a large unsupported proportion of the rails. That is one reason I am especially grateful Thorn's sizing guide pointed out the need for a seatpost with extra-long "layback" (setback). The Zoom model I received fitted to my Sherpa puts me in just the right position while being nearly centered in the Brooks' rails, which should ease future stress on the (powdercoated) rails. This seatpost is available as a separate item from SJS Cycles and is listed in their online catalog.
Moral of the story: Not all leather saddle creaks and noises are benign, and if there is a sharp increase, it might be a really good idea to demount the saddle from the clamp for close inspection.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
wow - that was a close call.
Glad you survived virtually unscathed.
Julian
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Danneaux
I too have experienced saddle failure on a B17. In fact it has happen to me twice! I have the version of the titanium version of the B17. The first time it was the Ti plate which connects the front of the rail to the adjustment bolt. The second time it was the adjustment bolt itself. Both times Brooks sorted the issues VERY quickly and efficiently. both of this faults occurred some time back (>3 years ago) and I haven't had a fault since.
Very luckily both times I was close to home when the fault happened. Although I am Brooks fan I wont be buying another titanium version saddle.
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And at £170 RRP, neither would I - although I'm very happy with my B17ti, I have just heard too many scare stories to feel that it's worth £80 more than I paid for mine!
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Are all leather saddles noisy?
No. I ride a B73, which has double rails and triple coils springs, and should be a whole creak factory. It's been totally silent from very soon after I fitted it. It may be because I soaked the whole affair in neatsfoot oil (a whole big can in one of my wife's Pyrex oven dishes -- I nearly landed in the divorce courts for this...) for twenty minutes when I got it and then wiped it rather casually only on the parts visible when it is fitted to the bike.
Tip: if you buy a honey-coloured Brooks saddle and soak it in neatsfoot oil, it turns a very nice midbrown that to owners of "real" brown Brooks saddles looks like a custom colour. Proofide will do the same thing, but not as evenly, and it takes longer. Note that you only do the neatsfoot oil soak once, and not for too long because you don't want it to soak through and make the saddle soft, you just want it to soak in a tiny bit to make the saddle weather resistant. After that you apply Proofide as normal, once or twice a year, and only on the top surface so that the leather can breathe from the bottom. There are some who claim the neatsfoot bath ruins a Brooks saddle but I've seen no evidence of it in three years, and it is enough for me that the procedure was recommended by that sainted bicycle mechanic Sheldon Brown.
As an aside: SJS had a sale on the B73 about three years ago and I bought one for an experiment because you can't go wrong for fifty quid. I wish now I bought a second one or even two more, for my other bikes, and for my stainless steel bike if I ever get that off the ground. It's the perfect seat for those who value comfort equally with speed, ride fast on potholed roads, and sit upright. It's like a B67 for hedonists.
Andre Jute
Always up for an experiment
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Love it, Andre! I can just imagine the scene, "basting" the B.73 in a Pyrex dish. Ah, the things we for our bicycles (and saddles)! Sometimes, it just takes a certain level of commitment, and I have been guilty of similar domestic atrocities (in the eyes of others, of course). So glad it worked out to your benefit, and I'll bet the color is beautiful. That's the thing with Brooks leather treatments...many are controversial to others, but usually seem to work out well for their owners. I recall reading of long-distance rider Lon Haldeman's preference for soaking his new Brooks' in fresh motor oil. To each his own.
I usually go for a light treatment of Proofide on the top and bottom of the cover, renewed every 18 months or so. I always cover my saddle when parked in the rain. Proofide works for me, but was an utter failure for a friend who rode cyclocross in the rain with no fenders. A lot depends on use and conditions. By the way, I am one of those crazies who loves the smell of Proofide (not a sniffer! Just the ambient odor during treatment), but it is not the same since Brooks' switch to a white formula from the former pinkish. I have it on some authority that it is not a bad mid-tour treatment if applied to saddle sores when nothing else is available. A doctor friend says it contains useful vitamins, thanks to the inclusion of cod oil, but he may have been having me on.
After the saddle-rail breakage mentioned above, I sent for a replacement powder-coated frame and rivets and reattached the perfectly good cover to the new rails. I've always had good luck re-riveting Brooks saddles, and the old B.17 Standards look much like B.17 Specials with the larger copper rivets. I can recall when Brooks was more liberal with time on their warranty coverage, but mine was out of coverage under their current policy and it was much cheaper to re-rivet it to the new frame at a cost of ~ USD$70 rather than buy a new Standard at ~ USD$100+. With luck, this same cover will go well beyond the 35,000-mile mark when it broke.
The B.73s are lovely saddles, as you know. The ride must be fantastic with *3* springs -- bliss on rough roads!
To keep on-topic I should mention I recently fixed a friend's creaking leather saddle by reversing his saddle clamp top-plate. He had inadvertently reversed it during assembly to the new saddle, and it had specific markings for one way only. Put right, it stopped all the creaking that had apparently come from the saddle itself.
Best,
Dan.
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Danneaux
I too have experienced saddle failure on a B17. In fact it has happen to me twice! I have the version of the titanium version of the B17. The first time it was the Ti plate which connects the front of the rail to the adjustment bolt. The second time it was the adjustment bolt itself. Both times Brooks sorted the issues VERY quickly and efficiently. both of this faults occurred some time back (>3 years ago) and I haven't had a fault since.
Very luckily both times I was close to home when the fault happened. Although I am Brooks fan I wont be buying another titanium version saddle.
Stuart - Rather annoyingly, the same has happened to me with my B17Ti - the rail itself has broken. Could I ask how old your saddles were when you got them replaced?
Cheers
Fred
PS I should add it's probably 4 years old, think I still have the receipt somewhere, but it's only done about 10k km max
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Hi Fred
I vaguely recall seeing some Brooks advertorial film on the web where they said they had gone to various titanium suppliers to get parts made and been told it was impossible and would fail without a redesign. They obviously found someone to do it in the end. The cynic in me suspects that the premium price and profit margin afforded by titanium alllows a generous warranty response. Why not ask?
It could/should be a maxim: You can't design for steel and build in titanium. Campag found out the hard way with titanium bottom bracket axles made to the steel pattern; Laurent Fignon had one snap in the TDF! I also know someone who had two premium titanium frames replaced under warranty after the driveside stays fractured...
On topic, I had a B17 that squeaked. I think it was the soft Honey cover that stretched quite quickly and was fretting on the cantle plate. Some warm proofide dripped into that area stopped it.
Steel Brooks question: Is it broken in yet?
Titanium Brooks question: Is it broken yet?
Squeak
Ian
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Steel Brooks question: Is it broken in yet?
Titanium Brooks question: Is it broken yet?
Squeak
To which I would add...
Late-production Chromed Steel Brooks question: Has it broken yet with high-mileage?
Yowl.
(pic in Post #9 above)
I am pretty convinced a long-layback seatpost that puts the clamp in the center of the rails' fore-aft travel helps prevent a cantlevered load that would otherwise strain the rails when the saddle is mounted on a modern frame with an upright seat tube angle. 'Specially if one also rides on rough roads.
Best,
Dan. (...It just went <pop> and then I had to ride standing!)
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Thanks Ian (and Dan, I'm sure you'd have come up with equally sound/informed advice) for your thoughts and counsel. I will dig the receipt out, and give 'em a call - it does seem ludicrous that such an expensive product is so prone to breakage - if I don't get a replacement, like others, I won't be going for the tintanium option which has gone up around 70% in price since I bought mine.
Thanks again
Fred
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Hi Fred
if they say no there is always this http://www.brooksengland.com/catalogue-and-shop/spareparts/
Good luck
Ian
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Saddles are easy to re-rivet after replacing nose-pieces and/or rails, Fred. I've done a number of them myself, and they all turned out well. They do require some planning, but they've always ended up looking as nice or nicer than when I started.
All the best,
Dan.