Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: jags on January 07, 2008, 08:12:59 pm
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so besides all the bike talk,what about the stuff you carry on them ,when you go on tour .
lets hear it. panniers, tents, cooking gear ,and anything else you care to mention
how do you arrange your panniers .
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so besides all the bike talk,what about the stuff you carry on them ,when you go on tour .
lets hear it. panniers, tents, cooking gear ,and anything else you care to mention
how do you arrange your panniers .
Great stuff-here goes..
Carradice panniers, Carradice saddlebag, Tent Hilleberg Akto (Summer) Vaude Hogan (Winter) some overlap of Seasons of course, Stoves used are Trangis Mini, Trangia Standard, MSR Whisperlite or Dragonfly multi fuel, Thermarest mat, North Face or Mountain Equipment down sleeping bags, MSR Titanium spoon/fork with MSR Titanium cookset if not using Trangia stoves, Maglite torch or Petzl headtorch, plus numerous other little items including Sony radio when required.
Bike? Well its the Thorn Sherpa.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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For touring in the UK.
Carradice super C panniers & stuff sack, 3 drink bottles, lights and map case.
Front panniers loaded with tools, bike spares, Trangia with gas burner and canister(s), matches, eating kit, emergency foods, maps, headtorch, rope, tent pegs, first aid etc.
Rear panniers loaded with Alpkit sleeping bag, silk liner, Thermarest pillow, spare clothing, washkit, toiletries, flipflops, rainwear, food, Platypus water carrier, money, Sony camera, Eton radio.
Stuffsack loaded with Hilleberg tent (1 of Nallo, Stalon or Nammatj as suits), Thermarest prolite 3 or Exped downmat 7 and Haglofs camp chair.
The amount of food and drink carried is proportional to how far away the next 'shop' is.
I try to split the weight 40/60 front/back.
The typical load is 22-25 kilos.
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fantastic what a list of quality gear,i have a long way to go .
im thinking of going with a lot of the gear you both have
hilleberg akto,exped down mat,i think the carradice panniers look a lot better than ortlieb
but do they preform better when the weather gets wet.
im hopeing to tour as light as possible,so im thinking rear panniers and bar bag.
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Have to agree with the Akto and trangia, went for Ortlieb panniers because they are waterproof and simple to use.
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Jags,
The Carradice panniers are better than the Ortlieb for me in that they have an external pocket as standard and lots of straps and attachment points to fix odd things without opening the main pannier.
Performance in the rain is different in that the cotton duck gets wet, but still keeps the water out. Rain just runs off the welded material types.
Very definitely a personal choice thing.
As to the extensive list of quality gear, mine has been acquired since I retired, prior to that I had a much more restricted budget for cycling. I rode my first ever tour from Merseyside round the Lake District and back, almost 50 years ago, on a Raleigh Trent Tourist - a basic straight handlebar 3 speed hub gear bike with a large saddlebag. In those days there were enough YHA hostels open. I still remember overtaking a car on the way down the Kirkstone Pass!
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thank's julk,yes a friend has the ortlieb ,i just dont like the look of them i think they look like big mail bags but they say there the best you can get.(think ill go with carradice).
i havent toured yet hopefully this summer on the new sherpa,i like this bike a lot i dont find it heavy when rideing (strange)super smooth i have a great groopset xt sjs built the wheels great job so all in all great bike so next part of the plan is all the camping gear and all that goes with it.
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My kit when touring with the wife:
Terra-Nova Ultra Quasar Tent, Coleman Muti fuel (petrol) stove + fuel, stainless pan set, Mountain Equipment down sleeping bag + silk liner, Karrimat 5*, bike tools & spares, water, Petzl headtorch, map and case, compass, paclite cycling jacket and some clothes.
My wife carries her sleeping bag and mat, all the food, water, gps, another Petzl, first aid, her Goretex.
My kit is carried in Carradice super C limpets in the front and an old set of Karrimor on the back (I want to get a set of super C for the back when funds allow. I would also like to get some Ti pots but that for next Christmas – I hope.)
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Stuart,
Is this your touring load with the RST?
The reason I ask is that I might have the possbility of doing a tour of a lifetime this summer, but this would entail taking camping gear.
Rather than reinvent the wheel by working out myself the feasibility of doing this on a trailerless RST, I'm interested to know if anyone else has gone with a light camping load on the RST.
Cheers
Fred
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Hi,
My kit is non existent at the moment, although I have Ortlieb panniers waiting to be filled. I'm working with Alpenstock in Chesire at the moment to finalise my shopping list. When I place the order I'll let you know - current items on my list come from Hilleberg / Primus / Optima / Snugpak / Lowe Alpine / Exped.
Jags - as for barbags, I would recommend you only use them for minimal weight/absolute essentials. I've had too much weight in mine before and the handling of the bike becomes terrible. I just use mine for wallet/keys/phone/chocolate and that's it.
Neil
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If you want to see some interesting bikes try...
www.fullyloadedtouring.com
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neil i already bought karimor barbag from chainreaction on sale ,it's a great bag i gave it a trial run and no problem.there sure is a lot of gear to buy when you get into touring dident realize that when i started but im enjoying it anyhow thanks.
lot of loaded bikes on that site bobs,plenty of thorn's.
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Ortleib BikePacker Plus for me. Just superb.
You can cram loads in and the expandable straps allow you to sucurely attach clothing on top as well. The mesh side pockets are usful for bit and bobs that need drying/bike locks..etc.
I nearly went for Carradice Super-C because of how nice they look but I don't want damp panniers in my tent and I don't like leaving cotton Duck on wet ground overnight. The Ortleibs live under my flysheet but outside my inner tent and it doesn;t matter too much if the ground is soaking.
I carry my 1-man tent inside a pannier with cooking stuff and all my dry stuff in the other pannier. My sleeping-bag is in a dry-bag between the panners but I could swap the sleeping bag and tent around if the tent got absolutely soaking.
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/Beer%20Camping/BournemouthProm.jpg?t=1199967101)
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freddered thank's ,yourself and your buddy look's like you had a great tour.
your setup barbag and rear panniers, did you carry all you needed with just rear pannier's,
good point about pannier's emm still cant make my mind up.
buy the way check out crazyguyonabike.com an african adventure by dave mc loughlin i think you will enjoy this.
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I have to admit it was only a 3 day camping trip but I'm sure I wouldn't have needed much more to stay away much longer (just a few more clothes I think).
My Self-Inflating mat is inside one pannier as well as the tent so one pannier is full of very lightweight, but bulky, stuff that a normal person would stack on the rack. This really means I have 3/4 of a pannier spare.
The more space I have the more stuff I carry so I'm reluctant to get front panniers in case I end up taking way too much stuff.
It's worth noting that you can get a very lightweight rucksack adapter for the Ortleibs. That sounds really useful.
I spent a year reading touring reports before I bought Ortleibs. It was clear to me that it was either Carradice or Ortleibs and in the end I like the fact that my gear can be left overnight in the rain if need be. My Carradice Barley Saddlebag (which I love dearly and is a superb piece of Audax kit) does get very wet to the touch, whilst remaining waterproof, and stays damp for a long time. I can live with this in a Saddlebag but not in 2 huge panniers inside a tiny tent.
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jags,
Freddered's replies reminded me of a problem which I encountered when camping on wet or water logged ground - sadly not unusual in the British Summer.
What do you do to keep your inner tent completely dry when you are treading on and storing gear on wet ground under the flysheet. The answer for me has been to use a 'footprint', a lightweight groundsheet cut in the shape of the complete tent including flysheet and used as a bottom layer.
I find this gives me a dry storage area under the flysheet which increases the usability of the tent when camping on wet ground.
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Agreed. I use a footprint (mainly for protection of ground sheet, I hadn't thought of cutting it bigger before).
My tent thought is very tiny and the panniers, even if they were on a footprint, touch the outer flysheet which can also get very wet with condensation in our lovely British weather.
Basically the (German) Ortleibs, like my (German) Rohloff and my (German) Dynahub are one less thing to worry about. My (British) Brooks Saddle and my (British) Carradice Saddlebag always seem to require a life-time of care and/or modifications to make them work properly (I think this is referred to as 'character' by the marketing folks)
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sound's like a great idea julk ,living here in ireland you certainly need all the protection you can get from the dreaded rain but does it come with the tent ,i somehow doubt it.
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Jags,
You can buy the footprints as an extra for Hillebergs, don't know for other brands.
Easy enough to make one out of polythene sheet or similar and replace it when it gets tatty.
John,
I must admit I am a Brooks and Carradice fan.
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I'm a Brooks & Carradice fan as well as being an Ortleib fan ;D
PS. The best photo of a Carrdice Super C bike I have ever seen is at the end of the THORN EXP brochure online. It looks stunning and nearly swung it.
(http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u249/freddered/LovelyBrooks.jpg?t=1199999973)
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julk that is one cool looking bike,and the pannier's are class. you know what turned me on to thorn bike's is when i seen john28 black nomad i knew then i had to have one.
yes it just keep's getting better.
fred had my eye on one of those bag's and the brook's im on a roll's duo saddle might change to brook's
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Agreed. I use a footprint (mainly for protection of ground sheet, I hadn't thought of cutting it bigger before).
My tent thought is very tiny and the panniers, even if they were on a footprint, touch the outer flysheet which can also get very wet with condensation in our lovely British weather.
Basically the (German) Ortleibs, like my (German) Rohloff and my (German) Dynahub are one less thing to worry about. My (British) Brooks Saddle and my (British) Carradice Saddlebag always seem to require a life-time of care and/or modifications to make them work properly (I think this is referred to as 'character' by the marketing folks)
But-its the quality and the character that shine through and make tradition what it is.
John.
(http://i.pbase.com/g6/13/97613/2/85817901.nmwV1Mox.jpg[url=http://i.pbase.com/g6/13/97613/2/85817901.nmwV1Mox.jpg]http://i.pbase.com/g6/13/97613/2/85817901.nmwV1Mox.jpg[/url])
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julk that is one cool looking bike,and the pannier's are class. you know what turned me on to thorn bike's is when i seen john28 black nomad i knew then i had to have one.
yes it just keep's getting better.
fred had my eye on one of those bag's and the brook's im on a roll's duo saddle might change to brook's
I think the Barley is a perfect 'day bag'. I use it for Audaxing up to 300km and for small local rides It holds enough to get you through the day but prevents you from taking the kitchen sink.
I now have a couple of leather toe-clip straps threaded through the external D-rings so I can carry wet gear on the outside
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Hi Fred A-M,
Yes this was the load on the RST on a short 3-day tour last autumn. I didn't weigh the kit but as it was split front & rear it didn't seam to pose any problems to the RST. I should note that I carried a minimum of personal kit. My wife and I are hopping to get away for a mini tour again this spring - dependent on getting the grandparents to baby sit!
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I’m a relative newcomer to cycle camping, if it wasn’t for the demise of the hostel network I’d never have started. Before family and other commitments intervened, I used to do a fair bit of backpacking,so I'm not a complete novice to camping. The most noticeable differences after a twenty year gap is how cheap, light and functional everything is. I had a top of the range Saunders tent in my youth, took me months to save up for, this time round my £75 Coleman is better in every respect.
The last three years have been a learning curve, I started carrying too much kit, cut it back too far and now think I’ve found what’s right for me. I’ve also discovered that although I like the idea of long extended tours, in practice frequent short breaks suite me better. I also found that I’d rather be cycling than camping, so spend more time on the road and less time at the campsite. For a few days I can’t be bothered to cook, I use a Jetboil to make hot drinks and occasionally soup. After a bit of trial and error I think I’ve found my perfect sleeping arrangements – Big Agness insulated air pad and matching large rectangular summerweight sleeping bag (the pad fits into a sleeve in the bag so you can’t fall off) I then use a down camping quilt over the top. It sounds a lot, but it packs really small, weighs well under 2 kg and has kept me warm and cozy on a frosty night. I’m still looking for my perfect tent, the Coleman Epsilon has served me well, though I’d like something lighter. I have a Golite Hex on loan, it’s got lots of advantages but I’m undecided. A friend has a Big Agnes tent that I really likw, the weak dollar makes them even more attractive if bought from the USA.
Here’s my Raven on route to York Rally 2005
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2121/2188712621_de276c7534.jpg?v=0)
The small Carradice panniers were sold after this trip, in theory they were big enough, in practice the shape meant they were awkward to pack. They were replaced with Vaude discover front, at 30L big for front panniers. My Ortlieb panniers started life as front rollers, they had a chunk cut off the top to fit a small wheeled folder. They carry about the same each as a bar bag. I like a bar bag for valuables and map/route sheet. The saddlebag carries everything I might need during the day, so I don’t have to open the panniers from site to site. This also has the advantage that if someone offers to carry my kit home, as sometimes happens after a Rally or Audax, I don’t have to think about repacking. With my present kit I could easily do without front panniers, except the Raven rides so well with four. I’m undecided as to whether the handling advantage is worth the extra weight, I’ll have to experiment some more.
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What do you do to keep your inner tent completely dry when you are treading on and storing gear on wet ground under the flysheet. The answer for me has been to use a 'footprint', a lightweight groundsheet cut in the shape of the complete tent including flysheet and used as a bottom layer.
It's a good idea, but you have to check after the tent has settled that the footprint is well inside the fly. If not, any rain runs off your fly and you end up with your tent in puddle, modern groundsheets will let water through in this circumstance. Well, mine certainly did :-[
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My tent is a Coleman Viper and I'm really pleased with it. I use a Mountain Equipment Sleepwalker sleeping bag and highly recommend them. They allow you to sleep like you are in a larger, rectangular bag because of a clever elasticated knee section. I just bought an Alpkit Airic to replace my old mat but haven't tried it yet.
No real porch on the tent means it could be difficult in prolonged rain, I will replace it with a Vango TBS Spirit 200+ when funds allow. I really like the look of the large 'living space' for the weight.
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Hi Stuart (Stutho)
Thanks for the feedback, v useful, as is virtually all the feedback on this thread, particularly with regard to the camping gear: a real goldmine ref equipment merits for the tourist. I'm still undecided as to whether it's possible to do a ltrailerless long tour on the RST (17Kg luggage allowance!) with camping gear, bearing in mind I'll need safeguards ref provisions and weather, but I'll feedback a little more once I've done some research!
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check out the Vango TBS Spirit 200+. I think it would be ideal if you got stuck in prolonged rain. It has a proper 'living area' and just needs one of those chair adapters for your camping mat to make it a home-from-home.
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hi freddered, i also had a look at the vango tent ,it look's a lot like the nallo gt except a hell of a lot more affordable,would there be a big difference in the preformance of the two tent's.
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hi freddered, i also had a look at the vango tent ,it look's a lot like the nallo gt except a hell of a lot more affordable,would there be a big difference in the preformance of the two tent's.
Well, Vango stake their reputation on their tents (the Force-10 is legendary). I know someone with the regular Spirit 200 who loves it. The tension band system makes it rock-solid against wind.
I think you can guarantee that they will be well deisgned, well made and waterproof. I guess it all depends on weight and personal preference.
I just love the big porch because I don't like being squashed up in a dark inner when it's raining.
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Jags,
I have used Vango and Hilleberg tents amongst others.
The Vangos were/are cracking tents and value for money. The nylon one I had (Odyssey 200) died when the flysheet deteriorated due to sunlight rotting the nylon. The models seem to evolve fairly rapidly and getting a replacement flysheet is nigh on impossible after 2 or 3 years meaning you eventually have to replace the complete tent. I still have a cotton force ten which gets used in sunny climes.
The Hillebergs I have are standing up to the weather better. Hilleberg also offer a repair service and sell spares.
So in my experience it is a choice of spend more up front and keep the tent going a long time or spend less up front but plan to repeat the purchase when the flysheet goes.
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I have a 20 year old Vango hurricane which is still in VGC spent a few nights at the top of a "Munro" in it. Cotton inner and realy strong groundsheet. The down side is the weight compared to a Hilleberg Atko which I expect to last just as long.
Bob
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check out the Vango TBS Spirit 200+. I think it would be ideal if you got stuck in prolonged rain. It has a proper 'living area' and just needs one of those chair adapters for your camping mat to make it a home-from-home.
Hi Freddered, I immediately checked the Spirit 200+ thanks and it does look pretty much the job in terms of my requirements, though am going to see if I can't find anything a little lighter (than 2.6Kgs) given that managing weight is of paramount importance in this instance.
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You guys just talked me into looking at Hilleberg tents as a possible alternative to a Vango.
I have just regained conciousness after looking at the price of Hilleberg equivalents. I don't camp enough to justify one unfortunately. They do sound nice though.
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You get what you pay, that's why you are riding a Thorn.
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FWIW, I did LEJOG (and others shorter trips) with Deuter panniers and found them really good. They have the Ortlieb attachment system so are easy to attach/detach and have outside pockets, which are good for keeping some things separate when necessary. e.g. rain gear or laundry. They don't pretend to be waterproof in the same way as Ortlieb but have in built rain covers (Fluorescent yellow) that are quite effective.
I wouldn't be without a bar bag. It keeps wallet, passport, snacks, cell phone etc. all in one place on and off the bike and the map pocket in the lid is really convenient.
Cheers,
pj
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My Ortliebs ar completely waterproof after 4 days of torrential rain in the last 2 weeks in Oz, but the Topeak bar bag gets wet even with the yellow 'waterproof' cover that came with it. I'm not sure wht but maybe the brake cables run water off into the side of it.
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An old thread that's still fun, so here's my offering...
My photo-inventory helps me pack more quickly. What I take and where I put it differs by trip and panniers used, so I tuck a laminated reference card copy in my map case the first couple days. My Sherpa carries Ortliebs -- BikePacker Plus rear panniers, SportPacker Plus front panniers, and Ultimate V Plus Large handlebar bag. My bags are not full, and there is room to carry more if I fully release the BikePackers' built-in compression straps. The Packers' cap-lids provide a large external pocket atop each drawstring-closed pannier, and I am always careful to fold the zippered mesh/envelope inner pockets in two and lay them atop the inner load for easy access to small items. This makes a total of four "pockets" for each front bag and five for each rear bag (each has an external roll-top side pocket held shut by the BikePacker compression straps).
All my load adjustments are made at the rear and vary by the amount of food and reserve water that is carried. If I am going to desert regions and need to carry extra water, then I place my 10l MSR Dromedary water bladder (filled to 6l) atop the blue foam sit-pad on the rear rack. The extra capacity is a reserve beyond the 6.5l on the frame. For long trips, the main compartments of the rear panniers are devoted to foodstuffs. I restock the handlebar bag each day with nibble-snacks to eat as I ride along (energy bars, nuts, dried fruit, etc).
My spare (walking) shoes go inside the cap-lids atop one rear pannier; rain gear fits under the opposite cap-lid. Quick access without wetting the bag interiors.
I prefer small tissue packets for toilet paper; more convenient and space-efficient than paper rolls, and easier to keep dry in the rear bags' side pockets. One packet is always in the HB bag with waterless hand-cleanser and my cat-hole trowel. When I have to use rolls, I de-core and step on them to take up less space and prevent a roll-away if dropped. I am squirrel-away extra paper bits and will nick the spare paper restaurant napkin to extend my supply.
Most of my other stuff goes in the handlebar bag and front panniers. This load remains constant for predictable handling and ease of packing/finding.
I use nylon-covered hair bands to roll-up and color code my clothing. Rolling takes less space and causes fewer wrinkles. Hair bands last much longer than common rubber bands and don't cause snags. They are so useful, I carry extra.
My base clothing is a jersey, riding shorts, socks, gloves, and helmet with glasses-mounted mirror. The stored clothing shown is what I commonly use when I travel in Spring, Summer, and Fall. Jackets go under the front panniers' cap-lids for quick access in changing conditions. I take enough so I will be warm if I wear *everything* at the coldest temps. I ride warm, but cool off when I stop and temperatures drop with nightfall. I awaken at daybreak to pack my bike and am riding 20 minutes later. I go about 32km before stopping for breakfast, and ride till I have gone far enough.
Usually, my sleeping system goes atop the rear rack, but on shorter trips the down bag and pad go inside the rear panniers with several days' food, the tent lengthwise atop the rear rack. One of the attached photos shows the minimal, normal, and expedition arrangements on the rear. I use a closed-cell foam square for a sit-pad; folded in two, it protects the rack from scratches. My U-lock and cable tuck in-between the rack-top load, held by the same Arno straps ( http://www.arnostrap.com/default.asp?content=productdetails&id=12 Swedish, though mine were produced in Ireland). Arnos' metal buckles hold up as the temps dip below -10C; sun-aged plastic buckles tend to fracture under tension at those temps.
For most tours, I take my Coleman Peak 1 multi-fuel stove and a spare generator pipe so I can convert it to kerosene, white gas (naptha), or unleaded pump gas. A stable stove with a large attached tank in the base so it goes a long time between fills and there are no connector leaks. Sometimes, I also take my little homemade methanol stove if I want a second burner or alone to save weight and space on shorter trips. For long-term use, it is less efficient than the multi-fuel stove (particularly at altitude), and my refill options are more limited in the remote backcountry. The Peak 1 will simmer nicely and is far more efficient than my Optimus/Primus liquid-fuel stoves, making it lighter in comparison (fuel weight) the longer I use it.
My tent is a 1-person double-wall Coleman Exponent Dakota with a side-vestibule, single side-entry, and aluminum poles similar to a Black Wolf Mantis 1 ( http://www.blackwolf.com.au/product-details.php?product_id=138&category_id=22 ) or Gelert Solo 1 ( http://www.gelert.com/products/solo_tent ). No longer made after Coleman fled the lightweight solo-hiker market, I bought three at USD$60 each on closeout. Still sold in the Ukraine as the Kraz X1 ( http://www.coleman.eu/p-23381-kraz8482-x1.aspx ). Just large enough to sit up in and remarkably lightweight, I like it very much, unlike some far more expensive models I have tried and rejected. It replaces my Early Winters Pocket Hotel Gore-Tex bivy that finally failed after 30+ years of use. Tents lead a hard life in continuous use, particularly if occasionally stored wet of necessity, leading to mildew that delaminates and dissolves the waterproof urethane coatings. The same malady affects cheap and expensive tents alike.
My Ortlieb medium under-seat bag carries:
= Multi-tool with tire levers
= 1 glued patch kit
= 2 glueless patch kits
= 1 spare tube
= Zefal Twingraph dual-valve manometer
= 1 Crank Brothers mini-pump (spare to the frame-mounted Zefal HPX2; I always carry two pumps in remote country)
Less-used tools and spares live in the Tool Sack in the left-front pannier. O-ringed alu Presta-to-Schraeder adapter lives on rear wheel valve stem, with cap.
My saddle cover is attached to the Sherpa's Brooks saddle rails so I can quickly install or remove it when it rains.
So, there you have it, Danneaux's what 'n' where 'n' a bit of how. C'mon guys, lets see what's-where in your panniers...
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I'm just dreaming of camping trips... maybe in the spring. To help with the plan, I am reading Ray Jardine's Trail Life, and getting a great kick out of it.
How about a tarp strung between a bike on one side and a clickstand on the other:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/tarpcrop.jpg)
Another wild scheme: I am intrigued by the notion of a vapor barrier liner for a sleeping bag. I think the real question isn't whether the inside of the sleeping bag should pass water vapor freely or block it totally, but the rate at which vapor should move. The idea is that when one overheats and starts to sweat more, the humidity inside the bag should increase and trigger one to reduce the insulation, to slide the covers off or unzip or whatever. But then one doesn't want to get soggy either - as soon as one has reduced insulation, that excess humidity should quickly enough be allowed to dissipate.
Thing is, one will generally already be carrying shell garments that are water resistant, but not waterproof. So my clever idea is to wear these shell garments inside one's sleeping bag, or under one's quilt. Crazy pajamas maybe. but they just might work perfectly, and no extra weight at all since one is already carrying them!
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Jim!
This is right up my alley!
Yes, what you propose with the tarp is similar to my current scheme for rigging a clothesline. I've never been able to do that before, 'cos there aren't many trees in the desert. My current plan is to rig the line between the Click-Standed bike (stand side) and the tent's main tension line. Should work a treat. I'm going to try it with the Sea to Summit Lite Line clothesline ( http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/3 ). It is longer than average, and uses rubber beads to squeeze the clothes between two nylon cords, so there are no clips or pins to lose. It also self-stores in a tiny, captive pouch and weighs only 1.3oz/37g. Should be here within the next week.
I really don't see it being much different than a lightweight tarp in that regard, unless you ran into high winds or possibly snow that would increase the load on the bike and stand. I believe leaving the loaded panniers on the bike in that case would increase stability. I have already managed fine using my Click-Standed bike and panniers as deadmen to pitch my tent tautly without pegs, so the tarp idea is well worth pursuing.
Yes, Ray Jardine's _Trail Life_ is a wonderful body of work, and one of my currently most-referred-to books, along with Stephen Lord's _Adventure Cycle-Touriing Handbook (2nd Ed)_ ( http://adventurecycle-touringhandbook.com/ ), also available from Amazon and a number of other outlets. Unlike many adventure-touring accounts, this one is based on his own experience and that of 20+ other travelers who are well-known through their own websites (he includes a list). It is full of practical information on equipment, preferred routes, and the included travel accounts are a good read. So is the included Thorn content. :)
As for your vapor-barrier idea,...I have already tested it and found it better than not. On my 2010 Great Basin tour, I suffered a tent failure in a storm. Ice pellets and heavy rain driven by 70mph/112kph winds atop Blizzard Gap finally proved too much for my 32 year-old Gore-Tex bivy. The Gore-Tex was still fine, but the urethane coating on the sides and bottom proved to be no longer waterproof, so it was up and out on the road, into the teeth of the storm as I ground up Doherty Slide into Nevada. I had no tent that night outside Denio, NV, and my synthetic bag remained pretty damp as the skies cleared and the temps dropped below 19F/-7C. I always take enough clothing so I will be warm if I wear everything, and that night I did! I wore my rain pants closed with velcro at the ankles and my waterproof rain jacket zipped up and secured at the wrist and neck with velcro, topped by my wind jacket. I wore my sun hat and put my waterproof helmet cover over that. Beneath, I took off my riding shorts, but wore my wool tights and lycra tights over them, beneath the rain pants. Above, I had on two jerseys, my nylon-faced wool wind jacket, and my fleece jacket beneath the rain jacket. I got through the night toasty-warm inside the bag atop my pad on the hard playa, despite a pretty constant night breeze. Though these weren't ideal conditions for a vapor barrier liner -- and my contrivances were not ideal -- it worked, and I was grateful. In those conditions, I awakened fairly dry, though I had to shake off a lot of ice that formed on the already-damp bag. As you can see, the alkali dust, sun, and wind did a number on my lips, nose, and head. I've given up on sunscreen for those places; next time I'll go with white zinc oxide, despite appearances. No one to scare except a few wild burros and some pronghorn antelope.
The thing about VBLs is they tend to make you damp inside by trapping the moisture coming off your body. Their real value is in keeping that moisture from wetting-out your sleeping bag's insulation. In cold-weather, one quickly becomes canny about just where the actual dew point falls with regards to your body. Inside the bag, you get damp (as in a VBL). Outside the bag, you get a frozen crust. Dead-center in the bag's insulation and you'll soak it out. Tent ventilation is a major determinate of where that dew point falls, as is the ambient temperature and humidity.
I'd love to see any prototypes you come up with, Jim. Good stuff!
Best,
Dan.
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Oh, I see, Jim...looking a bit closer at your drawing, I see you're using the Click-Stand as the second support; the freestanding bike serves as the other, probably at a slight outward tilt to provide tension to the tarp-line. I'm guessing the line is wrapped completely around the top tube for stability.
Hmm. I've got to give this a bit more thought. At first glance, I think it is viable, but you'd probably want a toe-strap or something to make the bike a rigid panel, and of course you would need to set the brake bands. Based on my tinkering, I fear it would be easy for the bike to topple unless a solid connection is made to it with the line.
At the other end, the Click-Stand's cradle would serve nicely to take a line across its top on the way to a ground stake or peg. A lot will depend on secure stakes, and that could be a problem in sand or soft/wet soil. Still, given the right combination, it would be an elegantly simple solution and that has great appeal. Certainly worth a try and a whole lot of fun to play with (my backyard works great as a proving ground for such things; wish you lived nearby).
I think a quicker, easier, and possibly more solid approach might involve leaning the loaded bike on the Click-Stand, as usual. With the brake bands set, the Max model is extremely stable. If you turned the front wheel toward the stand and tied a line to or around the seatpost (as I plan to with my clothesline idea), then all you would need is a second anchor. I believe it might be possible to use paired rear panniers as a single deadman to attach the foot-line for your tarp, achieving a nice sloping ridgeline in the process.
By the way (in reference to Ray Jardine's remarkable ideas), it is entirely possible to convert a sleeping bag to a viable quilt, but not visa versa. I take my 0F/-17C down bag well into hot weather as a quilt by zipping it open and centering it atop me, feet and lower legs in the foot-pocket. It is really handy when there is a 70F+/21C difference between day and nighttime temps. Venting the sides by propping them atop my HB bag ensures a comfortable flow of cooling air on summer nights. I always bring my Cocoon Expedition silk liner (sized to the bag and with a closeable hood; best silk liner I've ever found... see: http://www.designsalt.com/detail.asp?pageId=products&pageName=mummyliner&PRODUCT_ID=SMX ). When it is really hot, that makes a viable substitute atop various clothing combinations.
Best,
Dan.
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I'm guessing the line is wrapped completely around the top tube for stability.
Yes, or the seat rails, or wherever. Yes, I would strap the front wheel to the down tube, and why not apply the brake bands just to make things solid. For sure, this whole idea relies on solid stakes! Once that bike starts to tilt... of course I'd have the bags and bottles off it, but still it is no light thing!
Sure the line could run over the U of the clickstand, but I'd still apply a half hitch or some such to secure the line to that support. Following Jardine's approach, I'd probably set up the clickstand first, tensioned against the opposing cornerstakes of the tarp, and then set the bike up second, since it would need more security.
Of course is there is a tree about, the bike plus clickstand could be another support & the line just run over top, free to slide. But without the tree... I am just having fun, thinking about how to apply Jardine's logic to bicycle camping. How does the bicycle shift things?
Unzipping a mummy bag does seem like a practical way to get a Jardine-style quilt. I gather that's how he started down that path.
Yeah, I might well do some back-yard sleep-outs, just to refine methods before I get too far out by myself in the mountains!
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I'm afraid it won't work, the click stand will just fall over as there is nothing to keep it upright unless it has some further guy ropes. The minimum to keep upright is lines coming off in three directions. The bike would also need tying off.
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the click stand will just fall over
This calls for some experimentation!
Theoretically it's the corner stakes of the tarp that will create the lateral stability for the click-stand. The bike is already laterally stable because it has the two wheels - of course they'll need brake bands or some such to prevent rolling!
Whether the theory works... I'll just have to try it!
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(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/actualtarpsmall.jpg)
Not too bad I would say, for a first try. How big a wind could it handle etc., would take a lot more testing. Super simple, that's for sure!
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/meundertarp.jpg)
Getting the line up to the seat rails or even over the top of the saddle, wrapped around the saddle, would give some needed additional headroom!
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Not too bad I would say, for a first try...
Not at all bad; in fact, I'd say it is a dandy result you can be proud of, Jim!
In no way intended as a criticism, but I agree you would get even better results with a higher fixation at the head-end.
Just out of curiosity...which direction is your preferred entry-exit? I'm guessing a quick roll to the side is best...?
Looking good! Jim, this is just great; way to start the New Year!
Best,
Dan.
P.S. In a quick addenda, Jim...how did you manage to hold the bike while you tethered it?
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I expect a bit more space between the bike and the tent will make entry/exit simpler, though even as close as I had it was OK if snug.
I didn't have trouble with the bike falling over. I used this order of assembly:
1. stake the tarp corners at the bike end. The distances can be judge decently by just lifting the tarp to see make sure it comes to the right height and adjust stake positions or line length as needed.
2. run the line over the clickstand and stake that. At this point one has a triangular pyramid.
3. run the line over the bike and stake that. One hold the bike in position while pulling the line snug and securing it the to the bike. Then just keep tension in the line as one hammers in the stake, to keep the bike from moving.
4. stake the tarp corners at the clickstand end.
After this sequence I did another round of tweaking the corner stakes to get things square.
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Here are some other folks doing very much the same thing I suggested, using a bike as a tent/tarp support:
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=54639 (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=54639)
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Excellent, Jim. There's always some neat goings-on at the BPL list. Don't forget to check their links to equipment deals.
Up till it finally failed in the storm atop Blizzard Gap in 2010, I've had great luck using a Gore-Tex semi-bivy (a 30 year-old Early Winters Pocket Hotel). Right at 1kg complete with stakes, storage sack, etc., it was as light as many tarps, erected even faster, and successfully weathered many a storm for me. Most of all, it took little space for ledge camping, as the photos show below:
(L) Nearly summited-out, Willamette Pass, Oregon Cascades
(M) Ledge camping in California's Warner Mountain Range
(R) Cross-country camping, Picture-Rock Pass, Central Oregon
(...all on 700x32C tires, by the way; can't wait to use the Sherpa's 26x2.0 Duremes in the same terrain...)
The replacement has a similar footprint, but with a detachable fly and mesh inner for bug-free warm nights and a small side vestibule that just allows the inclusion of all bags in the tent if desired, for just .5kg more. Best of all, I can actually sit up at the waist instead of just leaning on one elbow. The side-entry helps immensely in steady downpours and mud or snow. I remain really intrigued by the simplicity and versatility of tarps, but Ray Jardine hasn't quite won me over yet; to get bug protection and coverage against high winds, the modified tarps end up weighing as much as what I have, and with less convenience. Still, they are a viable alternative in most situations, largely without condensation, and generally can't be beat for low weight and pitching versatility.
Best,
Dan.
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I've had great luck using a Gore-Tex semi-bivy
Someplace in my storage unit I should have a Outdoor Research bivy from around 1996, that hasn't seen much use. For just sleeping, this ought to work fine. I wonder though about several days in a row of rain. A tarp would have the space and ventilation to be able to hang stuff up to dry at least partially, enough room to hang out for a day or two to let the worst of it pass through.
For a two or three day trip though, I imagine the bivy wins. Reschedule the trip if the forecast is absurd, or just ride through it and get a bit wet otherwise.
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...or just ride through it...
Yep. That's what I do. Bivy for sleeping, bike for riding. When not sleeping, ride. When not riding, sleep (or spend minimal downtime <2-3 hrs. in-tent when not sleeping). Cooking takes place in the rain. Or snow. And so, generally, does eating. Cooking is a Mandatory Outdoor Activity to avoid tent fires. Tent is sanctum sanctorum for dry sleeping bag. Bivy for sleeping, bike for riding...works for weeks at a time. One can generally ride through or past a weather front; a person rarely rides within one indefinitely. For really heavy-duty stuff (i.e. severe lightning, large hailstones that generally pass in a couple-three hours) culverts, bridges, open hay barns, tree trunks as appropriate for conditions have generally proven better for me to seek shelter than putting up the tent. And, sometimes, if it is really bad and I need to still be in-transit or there is danger of a tent wash-out, I'll just sit down in rain gear on my little foam sit-pad, away from the bike, and bend my head forward, waiting for the worst to pass. Once it does, depending on the hour, it's back on the bike or put up the tent for the night.
On the other hand, my Dutch touring-friend's most valued solo-touring possession is his 10lb/4.5kg three-man Tatonka Alaska 3 tent, with a vestibule large enough to swallow two bicycles ( http://intranet.tatonka.com/infosys/php/artinfoe.php?2569_Alaska%203 ). It felt like a suite at the Hilton when I tried it; it's a wonderful piece of gear. It just depends on one's philosophy, comfort levels and preferences.
Bivy-Biker, now Mini-Tenter,
Dan.
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Pete Staehling on "Less Encumbered Touring":
http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=9738&v=9p (http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?o=1&doc_id=9738&v=9p)
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You can check out my entire tour gear list here:
http://velofreedom.wordpress.com/equipment/ (http://velofreedom.wordpress.com/equipment/)
My intention has always been self sufficiency so it looks like a lot... it is... too much for most purposes! Fine when touring long distances on good road surfaces and manageable on heavily undulating unpaved jeep tracks. However, having too much weight on the back effects handling on more extreme surfaces and puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. Over the next couple of months my tried and tested set up is evolving with the addition of frame bags from http://www.porcelainrocket.com/ (http://www.porcelainrocket.com/) and the loss of the dreaded rack bag... that thing has become my nemesis!
As an aside, I much prefer panniers with a traditional lid. I find that the roll top dry-bag style will let in water... when the wet bags are opened water runs down from the bag opening into the bag. I'd be going with a flip lid every time in future.
Me and a pal just took a tarp on our tour of Cuba. We found the most stable and quickest way to rig it was to use the two bikes as the support in a traditional A-frame set up. Both bikes stood up fine supported by a click-stand each. The advantage of this was that not only were our bikes covered but we also had them between us, giving a touch of privacy. We also had individual mosquito nets that we were able to rig inside; placing one rear pannier at our heads and another at our feet we were able to lift the net away from us and create a comfy little mosquito free space. Nipping out for a piss could be easier but most places wouldn't necessitate the nets.
Here's a snap... please excuse the inferior bicycle... my Nomad was supporting the other end...
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it looks like a lot..
No...looks about right, given your needs and what you're doing. A really fine-looking job of packing, too. Really, really enjoyed the links to your site and Flicker photos, Nathan.
I especially appreciate your revised equipment list, indicating what worked and what didn't, what you chose for replacements, and why.
Best wishes for safe, enjoyable travel!
Dan.