Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: ourclarioncall on March 25, 2023, 08:55:19 pm
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Wondering if safe or wise to use 40L ortlieb panniers instead of the small 25L I see most folk using on the front rack ? I have a lower rack on a Thorn bike . It looks like a bit like letter T . The top of the T where the panniers would attach are just under the boss for the v brakes
I’d also consider a different rack of higher is better for whatever reasons
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The volume is not what matters, the weight in the panniers is. That said, a bigger pannier is taller, you want to make sure your panniers are not so low to the ground that they could catch on the ground in a turn or snag road debris, etc.
Most front racks have a weight rating. Sometimes that rating is bogus because they want you to buy it, but the better companies have a reliable rating.
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Wondering if safe or wise to use 40L ortlieb panniers instead of the small 25L I see most folk using on the front rack ? I have a lower rack on a Thorn bike .
My solo camping setup is Ortlieb Bike Packer Plus 40L rear panniers with added pockets on the rear rack, Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus 30L front panniers on the low-loader front rack. Plus stuff strapped to the rear rack if necessary. This is plenty enough volume for me in France and Spain, I don't do desert crossings in remote places where you need to carry lots of food and water. If I need extra water for overnight wild camping I have an Ortlieb water pouch that I can strap to the rear rack.
For shopping or transport I use Ortlieb Back Roller Pro Plus 70L rear panniers and (usually) Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus 30L front panniers. If I need more space than that I generally use my big trailer, which is good for bulky or very heavy stuff.
I occasionally use the combination of 70L rear panniers with 40L rear panniers on a low-loader Thorn front rack, but only for transport of light but fairly bulky stuff, never needed that much space for touring.
As George says, one possible issue is ground clearance, IMO mainly a problem if going off-road.
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For shopping or transport I use Ortlieb Back Roller Pro Plus 70L rear panniers and ...
I have seen photos of those panniers, but have never heard from someone that actually owned them. Wow. They are huge.
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Wondering if safe or wise to use 40L ortlieb panniers instead of the small 25L ...
If you feel you need more stuff, you can put more stuff on back. As noted above, there are 70 liter Ortliebs. The Carradry panniers are also larger than 40 liter.
The Carradry used to be rated at 56 or 58 liters (I do not recall exact number). I orded a pair for a specific trip where I needed a lot of volume on the back. When I got them, I was disappointed in that they were not as big as advertised. But, having bought them to be shipped from UK to USA, it is impractical to try to return them so I kept them. I am guessing they are about 52 liters, but I later saw on SJS website that they changed their description to 48 liters from whatever the previous description was.
The trip that I bought the Carradry panniers for, that trip did not happen. But every trip after that, I had to decide which to bring, the Carradry or Ortliebs. I brought the Carradry on my Canada trip in 2019 so I could give them a try.
First photo, my Nomad Mk II with about the heaviest load I think I will ever carry. Ortlieb Backrollers, Frontloaders, 31 liter Rack Pack, and an extra dry bag in front of the Rack Pack, plus handlebar bag and rain gear strapped on top of Frontrollers.
Second photo, my Nomad Mk II with the Carradry in back.
In both photos, my front rack has the front panniers roughly 10cm higher than standard low rider rack, so the front pannier height on my bike is not typical.
And there are other brands too. I do not recall how big the cotton fabric rear Carradice Super C panniers are, but they are huge too.
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Do you really need the extra capacity? Where are you going and what are you doing? Carry what you want of course, but for me about 60L capacity is more than enough on any tour where I can re-supply with food and water daily (And that's every tour I've done or am likely to) IMO 60L and up to 15kg is fine all on the rear, therefore saving the 2kg+ of a front rack and panniers. I have done a couple of camping tours where I carried the luggage for two, for that I preferred to use a trailer. I'm also planning some base camp touring, I'll use a trailer for that as well, though I won't be cycling far with it.
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I have seen photos of those panniers, but have never heard from someone that actually owned them. Wow. They are huge.
So far I have resisted using them for cycling tours and holidays. Too much space encourages too much luggage.
They get used for the supermarket run, when I get as much stuff as possible so that I can go less often, currently about every 2 to 3 weeks. My wife gets fresh stuff nearly every day, she likes shopping but doesn't like carrying much so I get the heavy/bulky stuff that keeps for a while.
The other main use is to carry my equipment for an aquatic invertebrate survey I do as volunteer work on a nature reserve 18 kms from home. Bulky but relatively light stuff - waders, warm clothing, survey net, plastic sorting trays, holding buckets and the like. One 35L pannier for wet stuff, the other for "mostly" dry stuff, the two 15L front panniers for documents, food, bike clothing, dry rainwear, tools, camera, etc.
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Even the standard small front panniers on a lowrider rack are very limiting in terms of getting offroad onto rockier surfaces, as more and more camping cyclists are doing nowadays. Once I got the Nomad Mk3 fork with the three “Anything Cage” mounts on each side, I said goodbye to a lowrider rack and front panniers forever. Bags on fork cages fit a decent amount of gear (e.g. my tent on one side, and stove and fuel bottle on the other). Some things I would have previously put in a front pannier go instead into a frame bag: the Nomad frame triangle is quite generous.
So, for Thorn owners who have the Nomad Mk3, and either already have the bikepacking fork or would be willing to purchase it, consider if you want front panniers at all.
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Do you really need the extra capacity? Where are you going and what are you doing? Carry what you want of course, but for me about 60L capacity is more than enough on any tour where I can re-supply with food and water daily (And that's every tour I've done or am likely to) IMO 60L and up to 15kg is fine all on the rear, therefore saving the 2kg+ of a front rack and panniers. I have done a couple of camping tours where I carried the luggage for two, for that I preferred to use a trailer. I'm also planning some base camp touring, I'll use a trailer for that as well, though I won't be cycling far with it.
Near Aberdeen to John o Groats
I’ve no clue what I need 😁
I have no panniers but was thinking of getting 5. 2 for the front , 2 for the back and one of them rack packs that attach to the two at the back .
The rack pack would be for tent and other stuff
The reason for the two at the front was that I thought it was safest to have some weight at the front as the back might be too heavy ? Not sure if I’ve got that right
One thing I don’t like about my bike is the steering is very fast and twitchy , I wish it was a bit more stiff . Maybe I could tighten it up but I thought that was supposed to prematurely wear bearings or something. Not sure. Maybe it’s not tight enough but it feels safe and secure the way it is.
Maybe the front pannier would help the front wheel stop feeling so twitchy and more stable ? Or would it make it worse ? Hmm
I’m now not sure if I will camp, which means less stuff . I’m thinking of going nuts and doing it in two days. Through the night on main roads. Mostly . A bit extreme but that’s my style , I like to push the boundaries of most things in life (with lots of research and wisdom of course )
I might change my mind and do it in 3 or 4.
I’m just working on a 10 week fitness plan and diet. Been working out and out jogging /cycling and feeling great.
I’m thinking of doing 2 rides a week. Monday and Tuesday. This would be a smaller version of my two day trip.
I would try and really push the mileage up each week then I have 5 full days each week for rest and recovery . I have to watch out for overtraining. I will probably ramp up my calorie intake to around maintenance. I’m doing about a 500 calorie a day deficit just now so I can drop a pound of fat a week but with everything I’m doing it might be best to eat big and focus on gaining strength and stamina .
Eating eggs, oats, pasta, Greek yoghurt , salad , avacado etc most days.
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Even the standard small front panniers on a lowrider rack are very limiting in terms of getting offroad onto rockier surfaces, as more and more camping cyclists are doing nowadays. Once I got the Nomad Mk3 fork with the three “Anything Cage” mounts on each side, I said goodbye to a lowrider rack and front panniers forever. Bags on fork cages fit a decent amount of gear (e.g. my tent on one side, and stove and fuel bottle on the other). Some things I would have previously put in a front pannier go instead into a frame bag: the Nomad frame triangle is quite generous.
So, for Thorn owners who have the Nomad Mk3, and either already have the bikepacking fork or would be willing to purchase it, consider if you want front panniers at all.
Interesting. Just had a look online
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The volume is not what matters, the weight in the panniers is. That said, a bigger pannier is taller, you want to make sure your panniers are not so low to the ground that they could catch on the ground in a turn or snag road debris, etc.
Most front racks have a weight rating. Sometimes that rating is bogus because they want you to buy it, but the better companies have a reliable rating.
Cheers
Do you have a low rack on your nomad ? Was this a thorn preference to with lower racks over the higher ones ?
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Wondering if safe or wise to use 40L ortlieb panniers instead of the small 25L I see most folk using on the front rack ? I have a lower rack on a Thorn bike .
My solo camping setup is Ortlieb Bike Packer Plus 40L rear panniers with added pockets on the rear rack, Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus 30L front panniers on the low-loader front rack. Plus stuff strapped to the rear rack if necessary. This is plenty enough volume for me in France and Spain, I don't do desert crossings in remote places where you need to carry lots of food and water. If I need extra water for overnight wild camping I have an Ortlieb water pouch that I can strap to the rear rack.
For shopping or transport I use Ortlieb Back Roller Pro Plus 70L rear panniers and (usually) Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus 30L front panniers. If I need more space than that I generally use my big trailer, which is good for bulky or very heavy stuff.
I occasionally use the combination of 70L rear panniers with 40L rear panniers on a low-loader Thorn front rack, but only for transport of light but fairly bulky stuff, never needed that much space for touring.
As George says, one possible issue is ground clearance, IMO mainly a problem if going off-road.
Yeah saw those big 70L ones. I’ve never any ortlieb panniers in real life so unsure how long they are
The smallest 25L ones look a bit too small . But then again , as something else , more space invites more stuff you probably don’t need, and with a bit of packing skills you could probably cram a lot into a small space
I did think about getting 25L ones for front and back and a 24L rack pack . Or 40L for front and back and slightly bigger rack pack . Think it’s 32L? Can’t remember
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40L on a front rack would be very questionable to me. What kind of weight might you end up with and I imagine steering would need to be power assisted. That’s a no from me. I’ve Carradice Super C on my rear rack and they’re 54 litres. Sports rollers on the front and an Ortlieb 🐑 bag!
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I tried 40L on Thorn front rack once, back in my days of touring with a child in a seat taking up the back rack. They touched the road on a couple of corners! I went back to 30L bikepacker panniers after this, which have only ever been a problem on deeply rutted off road tracks.
Adding some load to the front may help with twitchy steering, though for me just the addition of a bar bag is enough.
On my tandem I’m considering a platform rack up front, as I much prefer the handling off road with front panniers & just one rear roller on the top of the rear rack, but would like to get them out of the ruts.
Ph.
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The volume is not what matters, the weight in the panniers is. That said, a bigger pannier is taller, you want to make sure your panniers are not so low to the ground that they could catch on the ground in a turn or snag road debris, etc.
Most front racks have a weight rating. Sometimes that rating is bogus because they want you to buy it, but the better companies have a reliable rating.
Cheers
Do you have a low rack on your nomad ? Was this a thorn preference to with lower racks over the higher ones ?
I built up my Nomad Mk II from the frame and fork, thus I ordered every part. I do not recall why I did not order the Thorn rack, perhaps because I already owned a Tubus Ergo (now discontinued) rack and I might have planned to use that. And that was a decade ago so now I do not recall if I ever tried the Ergo on the Nomad or not.
I tried a Tubus Tara on the Nomad and I was not able to adjust the horizontal bar to be even close to horizontal.
I ended up getting a rack that I was sure would be better than the drawing of it in the ad, it was not better. And I had to make a brace for it because it was not very structurally sound. But once I used it, I decided that I would keep it instead of continuing to look for another option. The horizontal bar is not quite horizontal, but close enough. And when I am off road, I like the higher pannier mounting on it.
The photo includes the extra bracing that I added to it. The rack was only attached to the outside sides of the fork, I added a piece of metal to the inside side of the fork blades so that the rack would be less likely to bend if I crashed.
That said, I really think the best racks are the hoop type racks like the Tubus Tara or Ergo that has a hoop over the front wheel for extra structural integrity. The rack on my Nomad lacks that but my Lynskey has a Tara and my Sherpa has an Ergo. On this forum, someone a few months ago had a rack mount break off of a fork, I think that is less likely with a hoop type rack.
The Tara has minimal adjustability, I have seen several that have a horizontal bar that is far from horizontal. But it looks good on my Lynskey that has a Surly LHT front fork.
First photo is my Nomad Mk II with the rack I have on it. Second photo is my Lynskey with a LHT front fork and a Tubus Tara.
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I tried a Tubus Tara on the Nomad and I was not able to adjust the horizontal bar to be even close to horizontal.
It is indeed possible to make the Tubus Tara bar horizontal on the Nomad Mk2 (this was the setup on my own touring bike prior to my upgrade to the Nomad Mk3 and the Thorn Bikepacking Fork), but I can see how the screw system on the Tara might confuse people.
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Do you really need the extra capacity?
I’ve no clue what I need 😁
That's where we all start and although we diverge from there it's usually within a fairly narrow band depending on our preferences and experience. The only thing I'd be pretty certain of is not getting it perfect first time and still making adjustments for years to come, possibly forever. It may be that you eventually decide you need to carry more than most people, but it's unlikely and isn't a good place to start.
There is something magical about the way a balanced loaded touring bike handles, it's an old cliche but they really do feel like they're riding on rails. There is of course a price for that and although weight isn't at the top of any cycling list for me, it is a consideration on them all. I wouldn't consider it a good trade off adding weight to a load to improve the handling, quite the opposite, I prefer my loaded bike to feel as close to unloaded as possible. I'm not going to guess why you're finding your bike's handling twitchy, but that is something I'll suggest you look into, touring bikes and Thorn's in particular are known for there steady, some would say boring, handling.
My packing advise - For a first trip work out what you absolutely need, then add stuff that you wouldn't feel comfortable not having with you. The big decisions for me are cooking and additional footwear. The first I've experimented with just about every option and settled on being able to boil water and no more. IMO the only reasons for a solo camper to cook is either they're so remote there is no other option, or they enjoy it. Footwear is the other one I struggle with, easier now I don't use SDP's. There is something luxurious about putting on dry shoes after a wet ride, but they take up a lot of space, I've settled on not bothering if it's just a couple of nights and for any longer taking the ubiquitous Crocs as they can travel outside a pannier.
It needn't be complicated or expensive putting luggage on a bike, eBay is full of cheap panniers, new and secondhand. My first few tours were with a pair of throw-overs and a duffle bag strapped on top, not as nice a hundreds of pounds worth of Ortliebs, but did the job fine. Once you have a better idea of what you want, you can then decide how much to invest.
I do appreciate how easy it can be to overthink these things, best advise I can offer is to get out and do it, even if it's just a night away, a sub 24 hour, ride out in the evening and back before lunch the following day, sometimes they're the best anyway and it's all part of the learning curve.
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Don’t overthink what might work better in what scenario but try out some options.
If I have to carry a bigger load, a trailer is preferable to a super heavily loaded bike. I converted a kid carrying trailer to a supermarket run carrier by taking out seats and putting a light weight floor in it. I have carried up to 40kg of provisions in said trailer which is a lot more ridable than when I’ve carried 20kg in two Ortliebs on the back.
I since have a better balanced touring trailer that came with a huge waterproof fitted touring sack. That rides even better than the diy conversion trailer.
The reality is in Northern Europe that we are never far from a shop or a garage or a town. Don’t think about how much you need to carry but how little you can get away with. Several thin layers can be adjusted as you feel warm or cold. No need for thicker clothes. Quick drying clothes preferably that you can hand wash in the sink at a push. Purchase what you need as you are close to needing it.
Give yourself time for on route delays. If you have time pressure you will ride in the pouring rain and arrived cold and demotivated at next point needing to wash/dry clothes when all you want to do is crash in bed. So if you have a bad weather day, have it for local sightseeing, reading, posting to this forum or even Netflix and co. You will be more motivated for the next leg of your trip that way.
Always have enough food and drink to get you through the day and to the next opportunity to purchase a top up. There is no shame to eating a cold pasty and drink outside Tesco if it saves you carrying it another 20 miles before you eat.
I’ve camped with the wife and a Primus stove. At times neither wanted to communicate with me. But I soon learned that asking politely for hot water to fill a thermos in smaller places while purchasing provisions rarely costs more than a smile and cooks pot noodles or makes tea just as effectively. And buying a warm take out/eating in a restaurant/pub is preferable to cooking if you’ve already used your energy up riding and then need to cook. In the end, could I have managed without cooking utensils and stove? Almost certainly. And the wife was easier to deal with too than camping in survival mode.
Less to carry = more time to enjoy the ride
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I tried a Tubus Tara on the Nomad and I was not able to adjust the horizontal bar to be even close to horizontal.
It is indeed possible to make the Tubus Tara bar horizontal on the Nomad Mk2 (this was the setup on my own touring bike prior to my upgrade to the Nomad Mk3 and the Thorn Bikepacking Fork), but I can see how the screw system on the Tara might confuse people.
Photo?
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I’ve no clue what I need 😁
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Photo below, I had about 2.5 weeks of food on the bike. Where are you going that you might need more pannier volume than I have?
Put all your non-food stuff into a box, or a couple boxes. Measure the length times width times height to get volume that you need for your stuff.
That is your non-food volume that you need.
I need about 2 liters of volume for one day of food, but depending on what you are eating, that could vary greatly. But you could start with a 2 liter per day rule of thumb for your trip.
If you were going into the desert and needed to carry days of water, that is one thing but if you are staying in UK, that should be unlikely.
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My Raven Tour "Utillity" bike loaded with the 70 litre Ortlieb Back Roller Pro Plus rear panniers and the 30 litre Ortlieb Sport Packer Plus front panniers.
Font panniers have food, bike rainwear, small toolkit, pump and inner tube, documents and camera for survey use, warm clothing for survey use. The front rack is a standard Thorn low-loader, with a modified stainless-steel rear mudguard and extra stay to the front of the rack (last photo of four).
Rear panniers have waders and survey net (this has a handle that breaks down into 3 lengths for easier transport), 5 litre buckets for sorting and keeping specimens, small observation pots. The rear rack is a Thorn Expedition, which is the strongest bike rack I know about.
On the rack I have white sorting trays, and closed cell foam mats for kneeling on cold wet ground, the latter also reduce rattling from the trays during transport.
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As said previously, I have never used the 70 litre bags for touring, only for transport and shopping.
The Raven Tour frame/forks and racks are rated for a "comfortable" load of 5-6 kg on the front, 15-18 kg on the back.
And maximum recommended load 12 kg front, 28 kg rear, which is about my maximum shopping load.
On a Nomad, the maximum rear load with the same rack would be significantly greater.
For camping, I could theoretically use just the 70 litre rear bags and save about 2 kg, but I prefer 30 litre front and 40 litre rear panniers because:
(i) the load feels more balanced.
(ii) I find it easier to organise packing with 4 bags.
Having front panniers also leaves me more leeway on the back, for example if I want to transport bulky food to avoid shopping for a couple of days, or, more significantly, 10 litres of water in the foldable Ortlieb water bag for wild camping.
If touring and not camping, I do without the front panniers, the 40 litre rear panniers are enough for me, again with occasional overspill onto the rear rack for food and (rarely) extra water.
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And the stuff from the rear unpacked :
The blue buckets can't be stacked too tightly, as they become impossible to separate. I either put an old sock between each bucket, or some of the small observation pots or their lids. Of course, this increases the bulk.
So a bulky but reasonably light load.
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my viewpoint and needs are very different. I find that the steering on all my Thorns is to quick. It's very twitchy to me. So I would not go anywhere without front low riders attached. On my lightweight (relatively ) Audax I have a super C saddlebag, which is 23 liters and no rack. On the front I have the low riders and this is the one case that I use both Ortlieb sport packers plus. It helps with my idea of what the steering should feel like, though not enough for my tastes.
So I too am quite interested in how large could I go on the front as I find that Audax setup a fair bit limiting for volume. I should say that while som like ultra light setups, I like ultra comfy setups and plan to carry both a tent and a hammock setup at the same time. It's terribly hot and humid where I live and a tent is misery, while a hammock is relatively comfy in this muggy heat. If you are into hammocking you know all about CBS - cold but syndrome. But sometimes a tent is needed.
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So I too am quite interested in how large could I go on the front as I find that Audax setup a fair bit limiting for volume.
The 40 litre Ortlieb Bikepacker rear panniers work OK on the front of my Raven Tour bikes with Thorn low-loader front racks. But I have never used them on the front for touring, only for short utility trips and usually with light but bulky stuff.
Large front panniers were still reasonably popular for cycle-camping in France when I first moved there in the early 1980's. They used big low loader racks that securely held the bags.
There are several things to consider if loading large bags on the front:
- the capacity of the front rack. The Thorn front low-loader is rated at 18kg max per side, when fitted with 6mm screws, 12kg per side when fitted with 5mm screws (my case).
- the capacity of the forks. Thorn recommend a maximum of 12kg on the front for my Raven Tour frames, I suppose this includes any handlebar bag (I don't like these). The Nomad Mk 2 forks had a higher rating, the current Nomad Mk three 26" 531 V-brake forks are rated at 7.5kg per side, the steel disc brake forks at 10kg per side.
- the shape of the rack and panniers, which must prevent any possibility of the panniers flopping into the front wheel, which would be very nasty.
- ground clearance when cornering and/or off-road.
Ordinary (platform) front racks give better ground clearance, but as the load is generally further from the wheel axle I don't like the effects on handling.
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I just came home from a tour on my Lynskey. That is a 700c bike, my front rack is a Tubus Tara. I had Ortlieb Frontrollers on it.
And once again, I scrapped a curb with the bottom of an Ortlieb, putting another hole in the bottom of my Frontroller.
It is already patched, not a big deal. But just commenting that if your panniers are too low, that sort of thing happens.
I have not put my panniers back in storage yet, so they were handy to measure. My Backrollers would hang down about 25mm lower than Frontrollers, the Backrollers are also about 25mm wider, thus would stick out more.
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I just came home from a tour on my Lynskey. That is a 700c bike, my front rack is a Tubus Tara. I had Ortlieb Frontrollers on it.
And once again, I scrapped a curb with the bottom of an Ortlieb, putting another hole in the bottom of my Frontroller.
It is already patched, not a big deal. But just commenting that if your panniers are too low, that sort of thing happens.
I have not put my panniers back in storage yet, so they were handy to measure. My Backrollers would hang down about 25mm lower than Frontrollers, the Backrollers are also about 25mm wider, thus would stick out more.
Now that is the information that I am grateful for. Yes, that is a moderately significant difference, dang it. I don't need much in the weight category, but rather in volume. It may seem sensible then to simply go with a four pannier setup, no matter the bike and eschew the "ligh weight" side of things.