Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: ourclarioncall on May 18, 2022, 08:08:34 pm
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If I get a son front dynamo then I think I would have to use quick release skewers or hex nut skewers. I would prefer the old fashioned chunky solid axle to feel like the wheel is safe and not going to fall off, but I don’t think son dynamos give you that option. They do through axles but I think that’s a bit different eh? You need A special type of fork for it to be compatible right ?
So if I have to have a skewer I was trawling throw internet to find out what my options are . My main goal is safety.
I keep researching different ones and often read bad reports , or also that the materials are not as good as sheldon brown recommends. I have no idea who he is but assume he is some sort of respected authority around these parts. He says…
“Good-quality skewers have acorn nuts with steel serrations that can bite into the face of the dropout, so the wheel won't slip, but most of the "boutique" skewers have soft aluminum parts in this position, presumably to save weight.
The aluminum "teeth" are too soft to get a good grip on the dropout. Since the chain pulls on the right side of the hub, where the acorn nut commonly resides, this type of skewer is almost always unsatisfactory for use with a frame that has horizontal dropouts. In addition, "boutique" skewers generally have (yuck!) aluminum threads, vs. the steel threads of the two-piece acorn nuts. The aluminum threads are much easier to strip. “
A lot of the high end skewers use aluminium or a mix of aluminium and steel. Shelton is recommending that both the nuts that bite into the dropouts be made from steel
It’s hard to find ones like this . Maybe older ones from the 80’s , 90’s etc were nice chunky steel ones ?
I just revisited the Abus locking skewers and it looks like they are made from stainless steel plus they have the extra theft protection so they could be a contender
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Quote taken from here
https://www.sheldonbrown.com/skewers.html
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https://www.abus.com/uk/Mobile-Security/Bike-Safety-and-Security/Locks/NutFix
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Are you over-thinking this? Check the bike and you may find that the drop-outs are splayed outwards slightly so the skewer will be retained even if slightly loose.
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I analyse stuff to death ten times over 😄 but when I finally pull the trigger and make a decision I’m always confident I made the right one
Is that what they call lawyer lips? I will have a look and see
I’ve never had a problem with quick release. So part of it is probably a little irrational fear. Yet at the same time, I enjoy finding the best possible solution , especially if I decide to go touring the world
I have read of some of the best offerings failing so there is a bit of genuine cause for concern eh ?
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I’m hearing that the older heavier steel compagnolo type with internal cam are the best to go for
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this type of skewer is almost always unsatisfactory for use with a frame that has horizontal dropouts.
Do you have a frame with horizontal dropouts?
This is what Sheldon is talking about, the wheel getting pulled along the dropout, it isn't an issue otherwise and it certainly isn't with a front wheel.
I like these skewers, I have them on all my bikes except the Surly with horizontal dropouts.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/tranzx-quick-release-skewer-set-with-special-key-theft-protection-for-130mm-100mm-oln-hubs-black/
The SON dynamo is a wonderful piece of engineering, though I prefer the older model, however it doesn't function any better than hubs a third of the price, I also have SP and Shimano dynamos, they all work as well as each other.
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Just had a look at the front fork dropouts and there appears to be no lawyer lugs or other safety nets . As soon I flip the quick release lever the wheel seems ready to come out. The brake pads do help keep it in place and I have to open the v brake thingy to widen the pads to be able to pull the wheel out
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this type of skewer is almost always unsatisfactory for use with a frame that has horizontal dropouts.
Do you have a frame with horizontal dropouts?
This is what Sheldon is talking about, the wheel getting pulled along the dropout, it isn't an issue otherwise and it certainly isn't with a front wheel.
I like these skewers, I have them on all my bikes except the Surly with horizontal dropouts.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/tranzx-quick-release-skewer-set-with-special-key-theft-protection-for-130mm-100mm-oln-hubs-black/
The SON dynamo is a wonderful piece of engineering, though I prefer the older model, however it doesn't function any better than hubs a third of the price, I also have SP and Shimano dynamos, they all work as well as each other.
Ah right , okay that makes sense with horizontal drops. No mine are vertical
I will have a look at the skewers cheers
I will have a look at SP and Shimano dynamos , they may offer a solid axle 🤔
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Side topic
I was wondering if there was a way to estimate how much Newton metres you are tightening things on your bike without having to buy a torque wrench
Maybe someone who works on bikes all the time would know roughly how many turns or by feel
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I would prefer the old fashioned chunky solid axle to feel like the wheel is safe and not going to fall off...
Everyone has their preference and if this is yours, fine. However, very few q/r front wheels fall out of the dropouts/fork ends in practice so long as the quick-release has been tightened properly or is appropriately designed for the intended application.
I own two handmade, silver-brazed, nickel-plated bike shop countertop "quick-release demonstrators" produced under orders of Rivendell's Grant Petersen back in the day so shops could easily instruct customers on the proper technique. They make it easy to see how the q/r works and how to secure it correctly. A couple things to remember so you get it right...
1) Never, tighten the q/r as you would a wing nut, by spinning the handle till it "seems tight". It is not.
2) As a quick rule of thumb, you can tighten the adjusting nut (side opposite the q/r lever) till the handle begins to engage/get tight at about 90° to the wheel face. Depending on how aggressive the q/r cam is, this may be too hard to throw fully closed with reasonable pressure. In that case, back off the adjusting nut till the lever requires enough pressure to engage that it leaves an impression on your hand's palm.
To reassure you, q/r lever cams have a mild over-center feature, where the lever actually seats in the fully closed position (like a pair of mole-grips or vice-grips that are properly adjusted. This makes them extremely unlikely to come loose on their own. Honestly, truly, you really don't have to worry about their security versus a solid axle in most applications. I do have a solid rear axle on my touring tandem, but my stoker and I exert a lot more force on the rear hub's axle than one is likely to do on a single bike -- especially when climbing out of the saddle together with a full touring load and trailer in tow.
I’m hearing that the older heavier steel compagnolo type with internal cam are the best to go for
Internal cams do secure more...securely...than external cams as a rule, but external cams are not a problem with vertical fork ends/dropouts. As PH said, it can be different with ramped (rear) dropouts where the rear axle can be pulled forward under drive forces. In that case, a steel q/r with internal cam can make a difference. That's what I used on my bikes with ramped dropouts, usually older SunTour Superbe Pros or later Deore, both with internal cams and steel faces (there's serrated steel faces under the plastic cap on my Deores). My bikes with vertical dropouts generally get vintage Odyssey/Sachs Svelte small external-cam, alloy-faced q/rs and stainless or titanium skewers. I got mine when the BikeE recumbent factory located just north of me went bust back in 2002. See...
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-vintage/1218519-anybody-know-who-made-these-skewers.html
My Nomad uses ti skewers from SJS Cycles...
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/titanium-front-quick-release-skewer-for-100mm-oln-hubs-black/?geoc=US
As for my SON dynohubs, I prefer q/rs to the allen-keyed skewers supplied with the hub as I find the originals tend to loosen in my use even when torqued to spec. I have no such problem with q/rs.
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If you go with axle nuts you will need to carry a proper wrench to secure them. On my Fixie (equipped with nutted axles front and rear, as is the track bike tradition), I carry an Artisan Tool & Die version of the traditional Campagnolo "Peanut Butter Wrench" for the purpose. See...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peanut_butter_wrench
This is not required if you use quick-releases to secure your wheels. ;)
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I generally prefer my hub quick-release levers placed on the right (drivetrain side) because when I lay the bike down on its left (non-derailleur/drivetrain) side to repair a puncture the lever is on top, making it easy to release or secure while the bike is laying down, something I find more convenient especially if panniers are mounted. I never, ever flip my bike upside-down for roadside service because I risk getting the saddle wet/dirty/scarred or could damage my handlebar-mounted accessories (GPS, LED blinky, bell, inclinometer, cue sheet holder and in the old days of non-aero drop handlebar brake levers, it could also crimp or break the cable housings where they exited the brake levers).
It drives people crazy and garners lots of comments and 'splaining from well-meaning cyclist passers-by, but I much prefer laying the bike on its left side with the q/r levers on the drivetrain (up) side. I can remove and reinsert wheels, make puncture repairs, and engage the chain as fast or faster than friends who invert their bikes. It is simply a matter of preference and practice and the world won't end if the q/r lever is on the non-traditional side. ::) I sometimes place the closed q/r levers pointing directly to the rear on bikes I ride cross-country, particularly through sagebrush and juniper, so they won't snag. Other bikes have the levers positioned parallel to the fork blade or between the chainstay and seatstay at the rear. where they are also unlikely to be caught and flipped open by...something.
Just a little more for you to ponder! ;D
Best,
Dan.
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Side topic
I was wondering if there was a way to estimate how much Newton metres you are tightening things on your bike without having to buy a torque wrench
One Newton is about 0.1kg which is a small apple. Image the turning force applied by that small apple on the end of a lever one metre long and you get 1Nm. As that's too low for most needs and a one metre lever is inconveniently long to use, take 10 Newtons, which is about 1kg (and multiples of this) and a shorter lever. A 10kg (100N force) on a 0.1m long Allen key (hex spanner) gives a torque of 10Nm.
Alternatively, get a cheap torque wrench which is suitable for most bike bolts https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/tools/topeak-combo-torq-wrench-set . It's no good for big crank bolts or similar but they need to be tightened with as much force as can be easily applied using a big Allen key.
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I prefer solid axles, because they are slightly slower for a thief to remove, not because they are any safer.
That said, I have done many tens of thousands of kms on bikes with quick-release skewers and never had any problems.
For SON and other hollow axle hubs I now use Allen key skewers. Some of these (for example Halo brand) have a little locating tab that needs to be positioned correctly, otherwise you can break the skewer when tightening the Allen head.
If you are worried about too much or too little torque being a safety issue, get a torque wrench and use it to check the torque.
I do this regularly on Ahead type stems, as I reckon the small Allen bolts and lightweight alloy construction of (some) of these stems might be safety critical.
Having once had a fork break while riding, I would hate to have a stem break.
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I have heard of people not attaching wheels right with quick release because nobody told them how the cam mechanism works. I even saw one of my co-workers (she was a scientist with a masters degree, she was not an idiot) use the cam lever on the quick release as if it was just a big wing nut and was not actually using the cam. Nobody ever taught her how the cam mechanism works.
And some people with disc brakes found that when braking that the disc brake forced the wheel out of the dropouts, but you do not have disc brakes.
And some cheap skeweres, the cam lever when opened could swing into the disc and lock up the front wheel.
Otherwise, I am not familiar with people having problems with quick release.
This is for your front wheel only? Or both?
I usually use a bolt on type skewer on dynohubs, takes a normal 5mm allen wrench (spanner). If I had something like the Pitlock, I am sure I would lose the special key, so instead use the ones that use any 5mm allen wrench.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/black-schmidt-allen-key-fitting-front-skewer-for-schmidt-dynohub-for-100mm-oln-hubs/
Around home, usually use the quick release that came with the hubs. No quick release comes with dynohubs or with Rohloff, bought some quick release nine years ago when I built up my Rohloff bike. I think I use these, front is 100mm and rear is 135mm.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/cromo-front-quick-release-alloy-skewer-for-100mm-oln-hubs-silver/
Touring I usually use the 5mm allen wrench ones on both front and rear. I am assuming most thieves are opportunists and that they do not carry around a 5mm allen wrench in their pocket. I use these for touring on my Thorns. The XL is for the extra thick dropouts on Thorns, but the front one might benefit from some hacksawing if you think it is too long.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/black-halo-xl-hex-key-skewer-set/
The Halo bolt on ones are unusual, there is only a spring on one side. The side without the spring has a tab that goes into the dropout slot to keep it from spinning. You have to be careful that you get the tab into the slot when you install the wheel, if the tab is in the wrong place, you can bend it and might break it off.
I think that Dave W (formerly with SJS) cautioned not to tighten bolt on skewers too tight. I have never had any problem with that, so has not been a problem for me. I am not sure what torque is correct with the bolt on skewers.
If you use a bolt on skewer, if you carry a spare tube on your bike in case you get a puncture, it is a good idea to carry a spare 5mm allen wrench with the tube to make sure you are not stranded.
I have a 1960s vintage three speed bike with nutted axles. And I have a nutted axle on my folding bike which has a Sram Dual Drive rear hub that only came with nutted axles. Otherwise I want skewers on all my bikes.
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I don’t have a SON but a friend has one on a Utopia and used to have a Shimano Nexus on a Scott MTB. Although tests prove the SON is better, in the real world you will not notice much difference on a day to day basis. As already suggested, Shimano do models without QR if that is your preference even if the majority have QR. There are alway pitlock after market QR skewers if you want harder to remove QR options.
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After researching and asking questions I’m getting more of an appreciation/liking for quick release
I’m hearing a lot that locking skewers like pitlock etc are prone to failure or are working themselves loose. And there is also warnings not to overtighten them . So I don’t know . I’m not sure I want something that’s tricky to fine tune and get it just right
Saying that , I’m finding I have a similar issue with the quick release on my bike which I think would be a half decent product being shimano . It seems like you there a very small window you have to get it in to close it so it’s not overly tight or overly loose .
Can these quick release wear over time and create problems like this ?
Having a solid axle on both wheels won’t be an option I don’t think if I go with the crazy overkill 48h rims 😄
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I had an issue with a Pitlock skewer, back in the day when I had Marathon Plus on the Raven for commuting and the front wheel hadn't been off for months possibly over a year. When it did puncture, typically on a cold wet night, in the middle of nowhere, the nut side had corroded, it undid half a turn then spun, I could neither undo it further or tighten it back up. I fixed the puncture without removing the wheel, wrestled the Marathon + back on then carefully rode home with a lose front wheel. The lesson learned wasn't about skewers, more about not leaving all weather threaded parts untouched for a long time if you rely on them coming undone when needed.
Anyway - the Trans X type I posted earlier (Which are available in security key or allen key versions) have nothing to go wrong. They work like a QR without the complication of the QR (Not that that isn't reliable) In reality the security version isn't that secure, it might deter someone from casually walking off with your wheel, or messing with the skewer for a "laugh" but it isn't really going to deter someone seriously intent on stealing the wheel.
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After researching and asking questions I’m getting more of an appreciation/liking for quick release
I’m hearing a lot that locking skewers like pitlock etc are prone to failure or are working themselves loose. And there is also warnings not to overtighten them . So I don’t know . I’m not sure I want something that’s tricky to fine tune and get it just right
Saying that , I’m finding I have a similar issue with the quick release on my bike which I think would be a half decent product being shimano . It seems like you there a very small window you have to get it in to close it so it’s not overly tight or overly loose .
Can these quick release wear over time and create problems like this ?
Having a solid axle on both wheels won’t be an option I don’t think if I go with the crazy overkill 48h rims 😄
I have never used a Pitlock, I do not want any chance of losing a special key for it. That is why I use the standard bolt on ones, like the Halo that I cited earlier. It is an M5 bolt. Just like a water bottle cage bolt, but longer. Tighten it to about the same torque you use for other M5 bolts. If you are worried about the threaded end corroding, smear some grease on it. Sometimes there are dissimilar metals involved, so some grease on the threads is a good idea.
Standard quick release, if it feels too easy to push the lever to lock the wheel on, undo it and give the nut an eighth to a quarter turn and try it again, or if too tight, you get the idea. The fine tuning takes about one quarter of the time it took me to type this paragraph.
Wear over time and create problems, if something is starting to go wrong over time, you will have some warning that something is going wrong unless it is corrosion like Ph had.
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When I said that a skewer bolt and water bottle cage bolt are both an M5, they are, but one takes a different wrench than the other.
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From your earlier post, George:
Otherwise, I am not familiar with people having problems with quick release.
Here's my example:
I switched from QR fore and aft on my Raven in 2015. This is what happened: I was in hilly country testing my switch from a 38T to 36T front ring. I stopped at the bottom of a hill, after the descent, because I'd heard a rattle from the rear of the bike. There was indeed a rattle, a clunky one: the rear wheel was loose, because the QR had worked loose. Dunno how -- I knew the cam mechanism, and had tightened it to my measure, pushing the heel of my hand against the lever, with my fingers 'round the seat stay. (This was well before arthritis in my thumbs, and I had a strong grip.)
I re-tightened the QR, returned home, and immediately ordered Halowheel skewers for all my bikes, save for my city bike. This has an Australian halo-like skewer with a pentagonal keyed skewer with one irregular (by design) flat.
No problems with loose wheels on any of the bikes in the seven years since.
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Interesting.
I’m still undecided on the direction to go regarding skewers
But every time I go down a hill at speed I just have this nagging anxiety 😄
If my forks had those lawyers lugs things I think I’d feel a bit more comfortable but possibly all Thorns forks are flat 🤔 not sure , it’s just what it looks like In images I’ve looked at
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I had an issue with a Pitlock skewer, back in the day when I had Marathon Plus on the Raven for commuting and the front wheel hadn't been off for months possibly over a year. When it did puncture, typically on a cold wet night, in the middle of nowhere, the nut side had corroded, it undid half a turn then spun, I could neither undo it further or tighten it back up. I fixed the puncture without removing the wheel, wrestled the Marathon + back on then carefully rode home with a lose front wheel. The lesson learned wasn't about skewers, more about not leaving all weather threaded parts untouched for a long time if you rely on them coming undone when needed.
Anyway - the Trans X type I posted earlier (Which are available in security key or allen key versions) have nothing to go wrong. They work like a QR without the complication of the QR (Not that that isn't reliable) In reality the security version isn't that secure, it might deter someone from casually walking off with your wheel, or messing with the skewer for a "laugh" but it isn't really going to deter someone seriously intent on stealing the wheel.
What did you think of the quality of the pit locks ? I think all the parts are steel? Maybe stainless? I forget now
Would you ever use them again or is there a bit of a mental block because of what happened with them
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After researching and asking questions I’m getting more of an appreciation/liking for quick release
I’m hearing a lot that locking skewers like pitlock etc are prone to failure or are working themselves loose. And there is also warnings not to overtighten them . So I don’t know . I’m not sure I want something that’s tricky to fine tune and get it just right
Saying that , I’m finding I have a similar issue with the quick release on my bike which I think would be a half decent product being shimano . It seems like you there a very small window you have to get it in to close it so it’s not overly tight or overly loose .
Can these quick release wear over time and create problems like this ?
Having a solid axle on both wheels won’t be an option I don’t think if I go with the crazy overkill 48h rims 😄
I have never used a Pitlock, I do not want any chance of losing a special key for it. That is why I use the standard bolt on ones, like the Halo that I cited earlier. It is an M5 bolt. Just like a water bottle cage bolt, but longer. Tighten it to about the same torque you use for other M5 bolts. If you are worried about the threaded end corroding, smear some grease on it. Sometimes there are dissimilar metals involved, so some grease on the threads is a good idea.
Standard quick release, if it feels too easy to push the lever to lock the wheel on, undo it and give the nut an eighth to a quarter turn and try it again, or if too tight, you get the idea. The fine tuning takes about one quarter of the time it took me to type this paragraph.
Wear over time and create problems, if something is starting to go wrong over time, you will have some warning that something is going wrong unless it is corrosion like Ph had.
Halo make some interesting stuff
I just noticed they have a really strong wide rim. Comparable to the Andra 40 or velocity cliff hanger . It’s called the SAS and it’s about 30mm internal and 36mm external width
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Would you ever use them again or is there a bit of a mental block because of what happened with them
If I felt the need for that level of wheel security I'd probably use them again. Since then I've had a well locked bike vandalised to scrap so I've somewhat changed my opinion on matters of security.
As skewers, the Pitlocks are fine, but no better than the Trans-X ones I posted earlier, the same skewers can be found with different branding. They sound similar, might even the same, as the Halo ones.
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Halo make some interesting stuff
I just noticed they have a really strong wide rim. Comparable to the Andra 40 or velocity cliff hanger . It’s called the SAS and it’s about 30mm internal and 36mm external width
I did wonder it the Halowheels that John mentioned was the same Halo as in the UK. They do make some good stuff, I have a pair of the White Line Classic rims on my Alfine Mercury.
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Interesting.
I’m still undecided on the direction to go regarding skewers
But every time I go down a hill at speed I just have this nagging anxiety 😄
If my forks had those lawyers lugs things I think I’d feel a bit more comfortable but possibly all Thorns forks are flat 🤔 not sure , it’s just what it looks like In images I’ve looked at
I think those lawyer lugs are a waste of time, they just make it more difficult to remove and refit the wheel. After you release the cam, you then have to loosen the tension nut at the other end to get the wheel off. When you put the wheel back on you have to fiddle around getting the tension right again. In the event of the QR mechanism failing whilst you are riding, the wheel might not fall off, but it will still be loose and cause you to crash!. In over 25 years, I have never had a QR mechanism fail whilst riding, only when removing the wheel (once).
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From your earlier post, George:
Otherwise, I am not familiar with people having problems with quick release.
Here's my example:
I switched from QR fore and aft on my Raven in 2015. This is what happened: I was in hilly country testing my switch from a 38T to 36T front ring. I stopped at the bottom of a hill, after the descent, because I'd heard a rattle from the rear of the bike. There was indeed a rattle, a clunky one: the rear wheel was loose, because the QR had worked loose. Dunno how -- I knew the cam mechanism, and had tightened it to my measure, pushing the heel of my hand against the lever, with my fingers 'round the seat stay. (This was well before arthritis in my thumbs, and I had a strong grip.)
I re-tightened the QR, returned home, and immediately ordered Halowheel skewers for all my bikes, save for my city bike. This has an Australian halo-like skewer with a pentagonal keyed skewer with one irregular (by design) flat.
No problems with loose wheels on any of the bikes in the seven years since.
You are the first one that I have heard this happen to, but in part when I say that I do not have a lot of trust in some of the people that say something like that happened when the rest of their story has inconsistencies.
I trust that when you say you closed your quick release properly, that it actually was closed properly.
I have heard of people being anti-social and opening quick releases on bikes in bike racks, for example at a school, then the bike owner gets on the bike, when they hit a bump hard enough to jolt the bike the wheel can fall out.
I suspect that was part of the reason that most new bikes these days (but not my Thorns) include an extra protrusion on the fork so that the front wheel can't completely drop out unless the release is opened much farther.
I filed those protrusions off my folding bike fork, as it was a major hassle to deal with when I had to remove the wheel to fold it. But I left them on my other bikes that have them.
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In five more years we can celebrate the 100th anniversary of the invention of the quick release.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick_release_skewer
When you consider how many people have raced with them, especially with the older style horizontal dropouts, if they were that much of a hazard we should have heard of multiple failures over the years.
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A quick side note here, if you pack up your bike and put it in a box to go on an airplane somewhere, remove the front wheel skewer. When I was in Iceland, I met two Italians that had just arrived, they both had bent skewers and it was on a Sunday, they could not find any replacement skewers.
I was packing up to go home, if it was one person I would have given him mine, but it was two people so then needed two front ones.
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But now that most new manufacturers are going to thru axle, quick releases will slowly disappear over the decades.
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I think those lawyer lugs are a waste of time, they just make it more difficult to remove and refit the wheel. After you release the cam, you then have to loosen the tension nut at the other end to get the wheel off. When you put the wheel back on you have to fiddle around getting the tension right again. In the event of the QR mechanism failing whilst you are riding, the wheel might not fall off, but it will still be loose and cause you to crash!. In over 25 years, I have never had a QR mechanism fail whilst riding, only when removing the wheel (once).
On my bikes that have them, I loosen the nut exactly four turns, then it is easier to install later, as four turns might not get me to the exact point I want but I am really close to it and only takes a few more seconds to fine tune it.