Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: KDean on December 09, 2021, 11:15:00 pm
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As I can't see myself doing any heavy bike packing / touring after my operation , is it worth trading in my Nomad mrk2 for something like the Mercury for light weight / b&b touring or would the difference be negligible ? I'm 97kg & like quite lanes , bridleways & cycle paths if that makes a difference .
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What’s operation are you getting if you don’t mind me asking?
I would like to own a nomad but I’ve had an eye on a Mercury too. I want the tank but would like the ferrari too 🙂
The Mercury sounds like quite a machine . What build would you go for if you decided to pull the trigger ? 650b or 700c
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"Quiet lanes and bridleways" and lightly loaded sounds like a Mercury with reasonably fat tyres, or if following the fashions, a "Gravel" bike.
I do notice the difference between my Raven Tour set up for loaded touring and my Raven Sport Tour set up for lightly-loaded day rides.
But I could probably get the Raven Tour down to nearly the same weight as the Raven Sport Tour by changing heavy components for lighter ones.
As has been said elsewhere on the forum, weightwise there is not all that much difference between frames. But weight isn't everything. I reckon a frame like the Raven Tour or the Nomad is less suitable for unloaded riding because it is designed to handle well with heavy loads, so is stiffer than necessary.
I would expect there to be more difference between the Nomad and the Mercury frames than there is between my two.
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What’s operation are you getting if you don’t mind me asking?
I would like to own a nomad but I’ve had an eye on a Mercury too. I want the tank but would like the ferrari too 🙂
The Mercury sounds like quite a machine . What build would you go for if you decided to pull the trigger ? 650b or 700c
I'm having a HoLEP operation on my prostate .shouldn't be lifting heavy weights & comfort is my priority ,I'll definitely be ditching my Brooks imperial saddle .
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I'd agree with what martinf has said. There is a considerable difference between the bikes, though depending on the current spec it may be possible to narrow it.
I'd add that it also depends on the rider and how they intend to ride it. I know the cycling industry is full of marketing guff, but IMO calling the Mercury a "Sports Tourer" is one of the most accurate descriptions I've seen. It is of course all subjective but I find it - lively, responsive, rewarding, engaging, while still being predictable and relaxing enough to be considered a tourer.
Do you want that? Or maybe more importantly, do you want it all the time? There is of course a huge overlap and some truth in the old adage that you can do anything on any bike, even so, however much I like my Mercury, there are times when what it offers isn't what I want, it isn't my most ridden bike.
Then, lastly, there's the money. Three grand for an additional bike or half that for an upgrade, only you'll know how you feel about spending that, one person might only do so for something that transforms their cycling, another might casually spend it too see the differences for themselves.
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A heavy bike feels very different from a light bike. But, pedaling up a hill, the total weight you are lifting (the bike, plus you, plus gear and water bottles, etc.) is where the difference is and if the difference between bikes is only 5 percent of the total weight, you are likely only 5 percent faster up a steep hill. In that case, a different bike might feel like it is justified, but would you be happy investing in the different bike for only a small improvement in speed?
Tires for an unladen or lightly loaded ride may be different than what you have on the bike, you might be able to make the Nomad feel more responsive and faster.
If part of a trip is lifting the bike up on a rack for vehicle transport, is the Nomad a weight that makes that difficult for you to do or not? I pick up my Nomad Mk II a bit differently than my lighter bikes because it is heavier, but I have figured out where to grasp it and how to lift it to make putting it on a rack less onerous.
I have a bike for every day of the week. Most of my riding is on lighter derailleur bikes. I use my Nomad Mk II for local rides that are mostly on gravel, I have 57mm wide mountain bike tires on it for use near home. But I still have several trips left in me and plan to use my Nomad Mk II for what it was built for in the future.
If you feel that a 700c Rohloff bike would make you that much happier, if you can afford it, then the decision is probably already made, you are just trying to justify it to yourself.
Four years ago, I did not need another bike, but I became aware of a new titanium frame on Ebay with factory warranty that so far had bidding at a small fraction of the new manufacturer price. I thought about it for a few days, I did not need it, but I had always wanted a titanium bike. It now is one of my favorite bikes and I am glad I bought it. If you really want something that will make you happier, that is something you have to decide yourself.
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I'm 97kg & like quite lanes , bridleways & cycle paths if that makes a difference .
I note that the Mercury's limit for rider + baggage is 110 - 120kg (depending on the forks see http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/BUILD8MERCURY650bROHLOFF.pdf) which, if you are 97kg means that you can't heavily load the bike (not that you would want to).
It would be worthwhile finding out what Thorn would offer for a trade-in.
What’s operation are you getting if you don’t mind me asking?
I would like to own a nomad but I’ve had an eye on a Mercury too. I want the tank but would like the ferrari too 🙂
The Mercury sounds like quite a machine . What build would you go for if you decided to pull the trigger ? 650b or 700c
Page 23 of the bible http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/thorn_mega_brochure.pdf provides some advice on the suitability of the different builds. If you are keeping on the roads then 700c is more suitable but if venturing onto tracks then opt for 650b.
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Thanks for all the replies .I purchased my Nomad mrk2 just before my LEJOG trip & chose to use my Ribble Adventure 2.8" tires because I knew there would be some off road
& I was more familiar with servicing it .Even though the Nomad is 5kg heavier I did compair the times on some local routes & their wasn't any difference in times , The Nomad did feel pretty comfortable & stable unloaded but this was only over 20_30miles .Thorn have offered me a good trade in price on s Mercury 650b but I'm wondering if there would be a huge difference .
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In addition to the potential weight reduction the Mercury, being designed for a lighter load, should be more compliant and provide better ride comfort under your anticipated loading.
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Thanks for all the replies .I purchased my Nomad mrk2 just before my LEJOG trip & chose to use my Ribble Adventure 2.8" tires
I'd say, at a guess, a lightish Mercury build will be smack in the middle of those two.
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Thanks for all the replies .I purchased my Nomad mrk2 just before my LEJOG trip & chose to use my Ribble Adventure 2.8" tires because I knew there would be some off road
& I was more familiar with servicing it .Even though the Nomad is 5kg heavier I did compair the times on some local routes & their wasn't any difference in times , The Nomad did feel pretty comfortable & stable unloaded but this was only over 20_30miles .Thorn have offered me a good trade in price on s Mercury 650b but I'm wondering if there would be a huge difference .
Interesting about the trade in. Did they just assess the bike from your description? I don’t want to know about the value but would be interested in the process. With new bikes now at £3k an easy part exchange route would be good. I guess the alternative is selling separately.
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I only got the bike from to gem in June & it's only done about 30 miles .I could get a better price if I sold it but do I want all that hassle ? I'd love to keep it for what I had planned but because of my 2nd operation due in January I don't think it would be realistic but who knows I could end up getting a Mercury as well ;)
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Despite buying a new Nomad I still cast a wistful eye over my shoulder for the MK1 Nomad I sold to fund the new one. If you can, keep the Nomad until you’re in a better place to make a decision. Besides, there’s nothing like going through the Mega brochure deciding on your prospective new steed and it’s spec’
Best wishes
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It won’t be long before you will never be able to buy a new legendary mk2 nomad. After that it will be the used market . If you sell you might regret it ? But I’m sure you will know yourself the best decision to make
I’m really gutted I got interested in this at the wrong time and now can’t get what I want as everything is sold out
If your wife’s let’s you …. I would consider going for a Mercury ….. then after that once you see how your health is Doing you could always sell the nomad once you’ve had a chance to compare it to the Mercury . Or just keep it ! Coz like guitars and basses , ones not enough right ! (***spoken in a woman’s voice**** “but you already have a _____, why do you need another one ?! 😁)
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I’m in a similar dilemma, ride similar terrain and almost your weight! I bought my Nomad 2 in 2013 and now considering a Mercury. I hadn’t thought about trade-in but given that good second hand bikes at the moment are like gold dust, trade-in prices ought to be good. How long this will last, I don’t know.
I’d thought about buying a Mercury frame and fork and cannabalising the Nomad as a lot of the parts would transfer to a Mercury, eg the Rohloff hub and Son28 dynohub, flat bars, disc and v brake inc levers, etc, and selling the remainder but it’s more hassle and might not save much over a good trade-in price.
I don’t know what wheels/tyres are on your Nomad but for example you could save around 200g per rim by changing from heavy weight Andra 30s (Typical on a Nomad) to middle weight Zac 19s and as others have said, some more by changing to different tyres, say 1.6” Marathon Supremes, and that should give a noticeably zippier ride. I find the Supremes good for the majority of conditions on such routes except heavier muddy sections of cycle paths. Although on paved surfaces the ride is a little less comfortable than say 2” Duremes.
Replacing a Thorn expedition rear rack with say a Tubus Vega (610g) would save another 200g (the supporting bars that come with the Vega rack to attach the rack to the upper seat stays are just long enough on a 565L Nomad 2 frame but they do sell an extra long set if required).
As to a 650b Mercury, I have a long bare foot stand over measurement (89cm) so have 175mm cranks. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure there’s a warning in the Thorn brochure somewhere against 175mm cranks with 650b wheels (Tyre size might be the determining factor here).
Best of luck with this.
Cheers
Tony
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As to a 650b Mercury, I have a long bare foot stand over measurement (89cm) so have 175mm cranks. I could be wrong but I’m pretty sure there’s a warning in the Thorn brochure somewhere against 175mm cranks with 650b wheels (Tyre size might be the determining factor here).
There's plenty of clearance on my Mercury (size 55L with 50mm 650b tyres + mudguards and 170mm cranks) and I can't see that 175mm cranks would create a problem. That's unlike a bike which I've just dismantled which had 175mm cranks on a 49cm frame and, from time to time, my toes would clash with the front mudguard.
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I am not researching the Mercury, but in regard to 650b wheels on it and longer cranks, could the issue be a low bottom bracket height?
If you had the same size tire on a 650b wheel as on a 700c wheel, I think the axle on the 650b wheel would be 19mm closer to the ground.
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Didn't see the warning and Thorn was happy to deliver my 650b Mercury with 175mm cranks and 50mm tyres.
I've not noticed an issue with them. What was the problem supposed to be?
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I am not researching the Mercury, but in regard to 650b wheels on it and longer cranks, could the issue be a low bottom bracket height?
If you had the same size tire on a 650b wheel as on a 700c wheel, I think the axle on the 650b wheel would be 19mm closer to the ground.
That could be the reason should someone opt to put narrow tyres on 650b rims.
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Didn't see the warning and Thorn was happy to deliver my 650b Mercury with 175mm cranks and 50mm tyres.
I've not noticed an issue with them. What was the problem supposed to be?
There isn't going to be an issue with that, as mickeg says the radius difference between 700c and 650B is 19mm. So 650B with a 50mm tyre is potentially has the same BB height as 700c with a 30mm tyre, I say potentially as there's also a difference in tyre deformation if you're running both at appropriate pressure, but that's quibbling. Thorn may have baulked if you'd asked for 650B with a 30mm tyre, but who'd want that? Maybe someone with a small frame and big feet, but then they wouldn't want 175mm cranks...
There's a fair amount of leeway - MTB'ers might be concerned with pedal strike, and crit racers with cornering, but for most of us +/- 10mm isn't going to make any difference, I have that much variation between pedals.
I did at one time consider building a 700c Nomad MKIII , but the high BB in that wheel size put me off, it might have been OK, but I didn't get on with the one bike I've had like that, though that may not have been the cause.
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I have not measured bottom bracket heights on any of my bikes, but I can say that my vintage Italian bike has an unusually low bottom bracket that I frequently ground a pedal when cornering, but I can't remember ever grinding a pedal on any other bike on pavement.
I find that every single one of my 700c bikes has toe overlap when I use fenders, but it is so common that I am quite used to it. If I have to make a very sharp slow turn, I am used to remembering to stop pedaling during the turn and to position my crank arms up and down. It has mostly been a hassle when touring with a heavily loaded bike, a heavy bike accelerates much slower and a slower bike means more steering corrections, thus I have often hit a fender with a shoe when starting out. But otherwise have not had a problem with toe overlap, I call it a nuisance, nothing more. My 26 inch bikes do not have toe overlap. My only 650b bike is a three speed from the 1960s, it does not have toe overlap, that bike came with fenders on it.
My Nomad Mk II has a high bottom bracket, but I have not measured it. I just feel that I am higher off the ground when on that bike.
I do not have a dedicated mountain bike, I was pretending that my Nomad Mk II was a mountain bike on a trip to ride mountain bike trails. I fitted it with a 100mm suspension fork for that. There were a few places like in the first photo below that there was enough erosion that the trail was quite a bit deeper than the ground on each side, occasionally I dragged a pedal on the side, which was most inconvenient. I have no idea if the other mountain bikes that were more common on that trail had unusually high bottom brackets or not? But usually the eroded trail was just wide enough for a crankset with pedals and not much more clearance than that.
Second photo, my Nomad on that trip, we were car camping in campgrounds and riding our bikes from the campsites. I also fitted a cheap (mostly ineffective) suspension seatpost on that trip.