Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Transmission => Topic started by: ourclarioncall on March 30, 2021, 11:06:59 pm
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Let’s say I buy a nomad 2 and it’s all set up perfect from Thorn
Is it possible that I can choose to leave the EBB where it is forever?
For a no fuss no faff philosophy, I would be happy just to put on a new chain when needed rather than mess about with retighening .
It’s probably easy enough to do , well I’ve read enough about folks experiences, and sometimes problems
It seems the nomad 3 EBB is a better system and it’s little things like that that would sway me to go with a nomad 3
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Only if you bought a lot of chains. But why? Taking the slack out with an EBB of either design is no more hassle than replacing the chain. I prefer the current type of EBB, but it isn't a deciding factor, they both work fine, the only real difference is the need to avoid micro adjustments with the set screw type, but there's really no need to be making such fine adjustment anyway.
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Let’s say I buy a nomad 2 and it’s all set up perfect from Thorn
Is it possible that I can choose to leave the EBB where it is forever?
For a no fuss no faff philosophy, I would be happy just to put on a new chain when needed rather than mess about with retighening .
It’s probably easy enough to do , well I’ve read enough about folks experiences, and sometimes problems
It seems the nomad 3 EBB is a better system and it’s little things like that that would sway me to go with a nomad 3
As far as I can surmise, you would need to adjust the EBB simply to change a chain anyhow?
I think this question should have been posted tomorrow- April 1st ;D ;D ;D
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I lack the knowledge and experience but here’s what I think I’ve picked up from reading comments and what I like the sound of for a no fuss no faff life
Put on a chain with the factory lube, don’t add anything to it. Put on a chainglider , this should keep it well protected,maybe not completely but a high percentage. The chain should last on the factory line without having to do anything to it.
The chain doesn’t need to be tight, in fact rohloff prefer a slacker chain and perform just as well or better.
Use the chain until it starts falling off the sprocket/chainring, then that’s the time to buy a new chain
You might as well just put on a new sprocket along with the new chain and might also put on a new chain ring or flip it? (I’m guessing this wears the other side of the teeth)
Feel free to correct me where I’ve misunderstood or picked things up wrong 😑 🙃
Smiling at leftoooles April 1st comment 😁
* couple of thoughts in my mind are
1.Will the chain start banging/scraping around inside the gainglider once it’s gets slack/loose ?
2.How long will I get out of 1 chain/sprocket /chainring before having to renew all 3 with my no fuss philosophy?
3. Is taking off the sprocket hard? Does it in any way compromise the integrity of the rohloff? In other words, would it be better to just change the chain and leave the sprocket until it completely wears out?
4. What is chain flipping ? Is it turning it inside out so you are wearing fresh parts of the chain that haven’t been touched ? Link flipping the chainring ?
5. Would I really need to make an adjustment to a nomad 3 EBB if I’m just putting on a new chain ? As wouldn’t it be much tighter than the old one ? Why would you need to mess with it ?
6. Does replacing or flipping the chain /the sprocket /or the chainring require adjusting the EBB in any way ?
Thanks 😊
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Let’s say I buy a nomad 2 and it’s all set up perfect from Thorn
Is it possible that I can choose to leave the EBB where it is forever?
For a no fuss no faff philosophy, I would be happy just to put on a new chain when needed rather than mess about with retighening .
It’s probably easy enough to do , well I’ve read enough about folks experiences, and sometimes problems
It seems the nomad 3 EBB is a better system and it’s little things like that that would sway me to go with a nomad 3
The Nomad Mk 2 is superseded so if buying new you might be limited by the frame sizes that Thorns still have in stock. I doubt they’ll be replenishing sizes that are out of stock but you can check with them. If you’re lucky and they do have your size frame then the Rohloff hub should come fitted with the splined sprocket carrier. This upgrade makes it much easier, in fact a delight compared with the previous screw-on system, to remove the sprocket in order to replace or reverse it.
If you’re thinking of trying to buy a Mk 2 second hand then it might be worth knowing that from May 2016 (I think it was) Thorns Rohloff equipped bikes were fitted with hubs that had the splined sprocket carrier upgrade. However, You could wait a long time to find a second hand one that meets your requirements. The splined sprocket carrier is retro fittable to earlier hubs so if you did find an earlier Mk2 Nomad to your liking this upgrade could be done quite easily.
What I think I’m saying is that you might have no choice except to go for the Mk3 :)
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Thanks for the info .
Yeah, I’ve been looking at the leftover nomad 2’s for a while and think the sizes available might be too small or too large.
I am leaning towards the nomad 3. I like the look of the EBB more, and also the paint sounds like it will be more rust proof over time maybe ? With the ED coating .
Only thing is I don’t really like the colours . Or the logos. Maybe they can do a custom black for me? But if the bikes are all mass painted , would a custom paint job be as good ? Will get the same quality ? Hmm
So does the nomad 3 have splined sprocket thingy?
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So does the nomad 3 have splined sprocket thingy?
Yes. This is a quote from Page 49 of Thorns current Touring Bike Bible
“Orders for ROHLOFF EQUIPPED bikes, which were taken after MAYDAY 2016, all have the new Rohloff splined sprockets - these are really easy to change.
The new splined sprocket carriers are retro–compatible and will fit every Rohloff hub ever made”.
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Use the chain until it starts falling off the sprocket/chainring, then that’s the time to buy a new chain
It works, except I think you're underestimating the mileage you'll get before the chain is too lose. I've needed to adjust chains in the first 1,000 miles, then sometimes not for another 3,000.
But you haven't answered the question why you'd want to, adjusting the chain with an EBB is simpler than replacing one. Plus it's not the sort of job you would suddenly need to do, so you can choose the time, then it takes a couple of minutes. I wouldn't know if a chainguilder complicates it, but waiting till the chain is falling off, means you have less choice in when to sort it out.
I ran a single speed bike without anything to tension the chain, worked out the magic gear with a half link included then removed that when the chain became slack, I did that for four years, though it was a pancake flat 4 mile commute. It wasn't difficult, I dropped the chain a couple of times, otherwise it was fine, but never ideal I wouldn't have chosen it.
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PH
sorry mate, I remembered that I had not actually answered your question and intended to get to it later.
It’s probably a mix of fear and ignorance and my no fuss personality . I have little experience with bikes and bike maintenance so a lot of it could be in my head. Just don’t fancy being in the middle of Africa and start having problems with my nomad 2 EBB after I attempt to adjust it for the first time !
I want to be prepared before I even get the bike to know in advance what I’m going to do and when. So would like to have a plan for maintenance, so I can can make everything as simple and fuss free as possible. I don’t care if it means it costs a bit more over the long term. I do try to be wise and sensible with money/value for money , but when it comes the bike it’s for fun and pleasure, I want a bike that just works and that I don’t have to mess about with (tooo much ), some self maintenance I don’t mind)
So In answer to your question, everything I’ve read on nomad 2 EBB maintenance doesn’t really fit into my goals, as I’ve read of many people complaining of issues. I think these issues can be overcome with simply advice like not over tightening the bolts etc, but it’s just an added stress in the back of my mind. I know I could probably get over this by owning and using one and realising “yeah, the guys on the forum were right, it’s not that big a deal” but at the moment I’d rather go with my gut
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Cheers UKTony
Good to know
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OK, it'll be your bike to do with as you please, but I think you're overthinking this one.
The older type with the setscrews was misunderstood by some, they adjusted it too often and instead of the screws making separate indents they joined together to form a grove, or the screw would fall into the adjacent indent, the answer is simply not to adjust it more than necessary.
The current clamp type doesn't care how often you adjust it, there are no indents, you slacken off two bolts, insert the supplied pin spanner and rotate it, then re-tighten the bolts. That's it, I absolutely guarantee I can do that quicker than you can change a chain. (Though I'm not accounting for the chainguilder with either job)
Both types can seize, like many other bike parts, a good coating of something once in a while and it's unlikely, if it does happen the clamp type is easier to free.
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ha, I laughed out loud there, yeah overthinking is my middle name 😁 sometimes to my benefit , other times to my paralysis
Part of my issue is ive been in a very bad financial situation for almost ten years, now some money comes along and I’ve got the opportunity to buy my dream bike which I never thought I would , so I want to get it right first time,( as I’m not sure il get the opportunity to do this again) do my homework throughly and buy the right bike with all the right choices . I suppose I always have Thorns return policy to lean on.
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If you are not sure how to adjust chain, get your local bike shop to do it. I bet the cost to adjust are lower than buying a new chain at very frequent intervals.
The nice thing about Rohloff gears is that they are low maintenance compared to constant tweaking of derailleur gears. Most jobs are well documented on YouTube either by Rohloff or by enthusiasts. I have learned a lot via helpful suggestions from this forum and following YouTube tutorials, and although I have had to learn a few new skills, it is satisfying to self educate and self empower yourself and get to know your bike more intimately in doing so.
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What is the order of wear ? Or In other words , what will wear out first before it needs replaced between the chain, sprocket and chainring ?
How many miles/km will you get out of each of these? Impossible question to answer probably but just a ball park figure is fine . Like “ 5 chains for every side of a sprocket , so 10 chains per sprocket “
It maybe doesn’t work like that but just trying to keep it simple for my brain to grasp
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Thanks Steve
I think one of my main concerns is being caught out with bike problems if I’m in a remote country and no access to bike shops etc. Or quite far away from the nearest one
Yeah, I should really learn
I had the idea of buying all the parts for a new nomad and paying a bike shop the teach my how to build or co-build (or at least watch the process ) it so I can be more intamitely familiar with how it all works
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What is the order of wear ? Or In other words , what will wear out first before it needs replaced between the chain, sprocket and chainring ?
Somewhere in the Thorn literature is the advice to change all three at the same time, not everyone agrees and I'm sure we've done this one ;)
I don't think I've ever got less than 5,000 miles, a few times over 10,000 and never made it to 15,000.
I've just looked at my maintenance log, yes I am that sad, on my most used bike the chain is coming up to 4,000 miles and has been adjusted once at around 1,200. It's wiped and oiled when it needs it, but it never gets a proper clean. None of the components are even beginning to look worn.
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PH
I just read some of your old comments on an old thread , and i am combining them with your recent comments here and that’s given me a much better picture of what I was trying to understand, Thankyou 👍 👍
You said that you hope to get a good 10,000 ish miles out of a chain , and that you don’t bother to measure for wear, but that you change the chain When you run out of adjustment or the sprocket looks worn
So I now see what you mean by needing to adjust the EBB occasionally over the timeline of those 10,000 ish miles
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PH
so what would happen if you never tightened the chain via the EBB over the course of those 10,000 miles ?
Again, I think I read somewhere that’s it’s ok or even a good thing to have a loose chain on a rohloff ?
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PH
so what would happen if you never tightened the chain via the EBB over the course of those 10,000 miles ?
Again, I think I read somewhere that’s it’s ok or even a good thing to have a loose chain on a rohloff ?
Yes it's best to run it slack, but obviously not so slack as it's falling off. If you start with it fairly tight it won't get to 2,000 miles without adjustment, if you don't adjust it, it'll fall off. If you start with it running fairly slack, it won't get to 1,000 miles. These are just estimates of course, lots of variables, not least the make and model of chain. Neither will you be able to precisely judge when it's slack enough to fall off, well not without more hassle than adjusting.
If EBB's were a problem, people wouldn't use them. There's lots of alternatives for tensioning a chain, I never have to adjust the chain on my folder with a Rohloff tensioner and I have a bike with horizontal dropouts which are simple enough, IMO the EBB is still the best and the clamp design the best EBB.
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PH
good info and insight , ok that’s all very helpful, Gives me a bit more confidence now.
So the chain is basically always moving (stretching/wearing) through a set of safe parameters where it will function properly . Not too tight so that it effects the wheel and bearings ? And not too loose so that it falls off.
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Fear not! Adjusting the EBB is one of the easier bike maintenance tasks: Slightly slacken the clamp bolts; carefully rotate the EBB slightly; check chain tension; more rotation if needed, otherwise tighten the clamp bolts. My Mercury came with a pin spanner but I had previously found with another bike that the EBB can be rotated by putting the end of a suitably sized long Allen key into one of the EBB holes and then pushing it round with the crank. It's advised that the EBB should be rotated such that the thin part of the EBB shell is at the top. See the Thorn Bike Owner's Manual http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf .
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Yes it's best to run it slack, but obviously not so slack as it's falling off. If you start with it fairly tight it won't get to 2,000 miles without adjustment, if you don't adjust it, it'll fall off. If you start with it running fairly slack, it won't get to 1,000 miles. These are just estimates of course, lots of variables, not least the make and model of chain. Neither will you be able to precisely judge when it's slack enough to fall off, well not without more hassle than adjusting.
I reckon a chain will probably last more than 2,000 miles without adjustment under a Chainglider. And a Chainglider might make it possible to run it slacker without it falling off.
For low chain maintenance without a Chainglider another alternative should be the KMC Rohloff extra thick sprocket combined with the KMC chainring and their e101 EPT chain, guaranteed for 10,000 km. I think there is another manufacturer with a specific long-lasting chain.
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Fear not! Adjusting the EBB is one of the easier bike maintenance tasks: Slightly slacken the clamp bolts; carefully rotate the EBB slightly; check chain tension; more rotation if needed, otherwise tighten the clamp bolts. My Mercury came with a pin spanner but I had previously found with another bike that the EBB can be rotated by putting the end of a suitably sized long Allen key into one of the EBB holes and then pushing it round with the crank. It's advised that the EBB should be rotated such that the thin part of the EBB shell is at the top. See the Thorn Bike Owner's Manual http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornBikeOwnerManual2Web.pdf .
NOTE this version of the owners manual does not use illustrations of the latest 2 bolt friction type EBB as fitted to the Mk3 Nomad and the latest iteration of the Mercury. The advice for these and the previous 4 bolt mini EBB on the Mercury is that the EBB should be rotated such that the thin part (not the thick part) is at the bottom. This is the opposite to the screw type EBB fitted to the Mk 2 Nomad and Ravens.
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Apologies I must correct myself. According to “living with a Rohloff hub” with the latest two bolt friction type EBB the thick part should be kept towards the bottom. I’d assumed that as it was a friction type similar to the mini EBB on the earlier Mercury the need to keep the thin part at the bottom would be the same.
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Apologies I must correct myself. According to “living with a Rohloff hub” with the latest two bolt friction type EBB the thick part should be kept towards the bottom. I’d assumed that as it was a friction type similar to the mini EBB on the earlier Mercury the need to keep the thin part at the bottom would be the same.
Good find! Page 43 of the Living with a Rohloff hub http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf is more recent than the Owner's Manual.
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Thanks guys , that has been a great help , definitely feeling like I could tackle it when the time comes . The pictures are good too . Visual learner and all that jazz 🙂
Couple things- on how tight to tighten these EBB bolts once you’ve untightened them , spun the EBB and tights the chain - I don’t know nuTTin bout Newton thingys or spanner’s/wrench’s ... but I’d be willing to buy/learn
But would it be possible just to retighten exactly the same amount of turns that I loosened to get it back to a similar place ? As In “ tight , 1, 2, 3, 4, and 3/4 turns lefty Lucy, so il do the exact same in the righty righty direction “
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The other thing is, I haven’t read I don’t think how to tighten your chain , or in other words , how do you know your chain is tight enough and not too tight once you have rotated the EBB a little to take up the slack ?
Cheers guys
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How to visualise the required torque? Think of a Newton (about 1/10 kg) as being a moderately small apple. 5Nm is thus the torque provided by hanging 5 of those apples on a lever 1m long or 25 apples pushing on a 20cm long spanner. That's not a big force and, in the context of the EBB, the objective is to ensure that the EBB can't rotate when the bicycle is used. It's prudent to tighten anything up using the tools which you will be carrying around so you can be more certain of undoing something when the need arises. If worried about things working loose then a drop of low strength loctite on the threads can be used.
The desirable range of chain tension is shown on page 12 of the owner's manual. However, as long as the chain isn't so slack that it jumps off when you cycle over a bump then it's OK. Thorn bikes are set up with a good chainline which should help reduce the risk of the chain jumping off.
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JohnR
Oh yeah, I remember Isaac and his Apple now
Yeah , I hear folk say it doesn’t take much to tighten the EBB bolts sufficiently
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I find one chain ring does two sprockets, each can be reversed. I use a chain for each side of a sprocket. Perhaps 5000 miles per chain, 10,000 per sprocket, 20,000 per chain ring. Everyone is different though depending on use.
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I can't comment on the Mk III, I have the Mk II.
As noted above by others, the eccentric bolts press a small depression into the aluminum eccentric. And you should avoid creating too many new depressions or you can end up with a groove and then the eccentric can slip, or at least that is my understanding.
Someone commented years ago that he put his bike upside down, removed one eccentric bolt so he could look inside at the depression, then loosened the other bolt and when he tightened his chain, he could see how far the depression moved as he adjusted it. I thought that was a really good idea, so that is what I always do now.
I wait for my chain to get quite loose before I tighten the chain. The bolts are a fine thread 10mm. When the depression that was centered in the hole before I adjust the eccentric gets to the edge of the hole, that depression has moved roughly 4 to 5 mm. That is far enough, I then tighten the bolts. If however I can't tighten it that far because the chain gets too tight, I reset the eccentric to where it was before I started and just ride the bike until the chain gets more slack.
I do not use a torque wrench, but if you are not mechanically minded, you could ask SJS for a torque level and use a torque wrench.
After eight years I now have lots of little depressions in my eccentric evenly spaced at about 4 to 5mm apart, no longer need to make new depressions.
On one occasion one of the 10mm screws came loose. It did not fall out, but next time I ordered something from SJS I ordered a spare. I also use a couple rubber bands wrapped around the two bolts so that they can't easily turn by themselves to make sure that if one was too loose, it could not fall out. See photo.
This procedure of flipping the bike upside down may take a bit longer to do, but I find that being able to look at where the depressions in the eccentric are when I adjust it to be an added benefit.
If however you got the Mk III, there are no depressions, the eccentric is infinitely adjustable. Other than that, since I have not used that eccentric, I can't comment further.
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A Nomad Mk II is a very heavy bike. Do you really need a bike with that much weight capacity? If not, you may decide that you would have been happier with a lighter weight bike.
Chainglider, I do not use one but those that use them are quite happy with them.
I have worn out several chains, but am still on original chainring and sprocket, I have flipped the sprocket to the other side, my sprocket is the old threaded style, not splined.
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I find one chain ring does two sprockets, each can be reversed. I use a chain for each side of a sprocket. Perhaps 5000 miles per chain, 10,000 per sprocket, 20,000 per chain ring. Everyone is different though depending on use.
This is pretty much the same as my experience with a Mk2 Nomad running a 40/17 T setup using the KMC X1 chain. I also clean the chain regularly roughly, monthly depending on amount of use, using one of these gadgets,
https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bike-maintenance/bike-cleaning/bikehut-chain-cleaning-kit-164289.html
I would add that this is not riding on heavily loaded touring/expeditions. I don’t know if the cleaning extends the life of the components but it feels good afterwards and the chain looks sparkly 🙂
I’ve recently fitted the successor to the KMC X1 - the KMC e1 EPT which has KMC durability rating if 4 out of 5 stars. Don’t know what that means but we shall see. I keep it simple. I don’t go in for all the wear saving wheezes I’ve read on the forum, like rotating chains etc because I cba.
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Brilliant, that’s was all really good info and detail
It all makes sense to me now and I’ve got a good grasp of what to anticipate as far as eccentrics, chains /sprockets and chainrings go and a rough timeframe for longevity of parts.
One thought I had was , what are these parts made of and do they effects longevity? Example , I’m guessing a stainless steel part being harder would last longer , but wear out other parts quicker ?
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Brilliant, that’s was all really good info and detail
It all makes sense to me now and I’ve got a good grasp of what to anticipate as far as eccentrics, chains /sprockets and chainrings go and a rough timeframe for longevity of parts.
One thought I had was , what are these parts made of and do they effects longevity? Example , I’m guessing a stainless steel part being harder would last longer , but wear out other parts quicker ?
My estimates were based on a rohloff sprocket which I think is steel and a thorn aluminium chain ring. You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
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My estimates were based on a rohloff sprocket which I think is steel and a thorn aluminium chain ring. You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
Snap! And no chain glider for me!
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My estimates were based on a rohloff sprocket which I think is steel and a thorn aluminium chain ring. You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
Snap! And no chain glider for me!
Any reason for no Chainglider? I know they don't fit all sprocket/ cog combinations.
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Any reason for no Chainglider?
The Chainglider has certain flaws that many people find intolerable (discussed on this forum on various occasions). Even SJS Cycles has warned against them when you say you want to order one.
The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
Could it have been that your Surly ring was never supposed to be round? After all, oval chainrings are a thing.
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Matt
Glad you brought it up as I wanted to revisit this topic 👍
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Matt
Glad you brought it up as I wanted to revisit this topic 👍
Nice to find out I've been doing it wrong for 6 years and extending my chain life by X%.
Always something new to learn in life.
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My estimates were based on a rohloff sprocket which I think is steel and a thorn aluminium chain ring. You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
Snap! And no chain glider for me!
Any reason for no Chainglider? I know they don't fit all sprocket/ cog combinations.
I,ve never investigated chaingliders and don’t have a view on them. I mentioned it simply to point out in answer to our larioncall’s original question about mileage from transmission components, that the mileage I obtain is without a chain glider. My initial thought about them is that I don’t particularly want another piece of kit on the bike to fiddle about with eg if I have to remove a wheel for any reason, and it could just be just something else to go wrong.
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My estimates were based on a rohloff sprocket which I think is steel and a thorn aluminium chain ring. You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
Snap! And no chain glider for me!
Any reason for no Chainglider? I know they don't fit all sprocket/ cog combinations.
I,ve never investigated chaingliders and don’t have a view on them. I mentioned it simply to point out in answer to our larioncall’s original question about mileage from transmission components, that the mileage I obtain is without a chain glider. My initial thought about them is that I don’t particularly want another piece of kit on the bike to fiddle about with eg if I have to remove a wheel for any reason, and it could just be just something else to go wrong.
Fairy Nuff.
My Chainglider pops on and off within 5 mins.
I don't really notice it, other than to see all of the crud on it, rather than my chain.
In 6+ years, it's never gone 'wrong'.
Yes, it's not 100% water tight. But I'll take 90% .
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You can use Surly steel chain rings. The surly should last longer but I wasn’t impressed with the QC on the one I bought as it wasn’t vey round and led to tight spots in the chain.
I have not used the Surly chainring, can't comment on that as a brand. But I can say that crank arm bolt holes and chainring bolt holes often give a bit more room than absolutely necessary. Thus, often the chainring might not be perfectly concentric with the bottom bracket when you tighten up the bolts. In my case I have found that the extra slop in the holes makes the difference. It only takes a slight deviation of perfectly concentric spacing to give you a noticeable tight spot on the chain.
I change chainrings more often than most because I tour with a smaller chainring than I use for riding around home. And I have found that it works best if I put in the bolts and only slightly tighten them so that I can shift the chainring slightly by hand and check to make sure that the chain is reasonably evenly tight for the complete revolution of the crankset, I backpedal by hand for several crank revolutions to try to get the chain as evenly tight as possible before a final tightening of the chainring bolts.
My parts may be more imprecise than most, I bought very low budget crankset and chainrings, more expensive ones might have better precision.
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Re the Surly chain ring. Mick is correct about the spacing and play in the mounting holes. Whereas the replacement thorn rings are counter sunk and just slot into place first time, no end of faffing with the Surly would do it. It did work but with noticeable tight parts in the chain rotation. So either the ring was not round, the mounting holes not perfect or just too much play in the holes. I would have put up with it to keep the chain glider but when I switched frames to a raven sport the glider wouldn’t fit as neatly as on the raven tour.