Thorn Cycles Forum

Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: geocycle on September 05, 2020, 01:27:41 pm

Title: Oil change therapy
Post by: geocycle on September 05, 2020, 01:27:41 pm
September, so time for the annual oil change.  I find this a really satisfying job with little risk attached that it could become a major task. This must be the 14th annual change I’ve made since getting the hub in 2006. Rather than spin the wheel with the cleaning oil I’ve found a short hill where I can engage gears 3 and 5 To swash around the mix. One change this year, I swapped my normal Earl Grey for Yorkshire Tea during the 15 min drainage. I’ve just finished my Rohloff oil which I bought as part of a forum group purchase Many years back when only litre sizes were available. Given that I’ll likely be still riding the hub in another 14 years, I’d best get some more ordered.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on September 05, 2020, 01:52:35 pm
I’ve just finished my Rohloff oil which I bought as part of a forum group purchase Many years back when only litre sizes were available. Given that I’ll likely be still riding the hub in another 14 years, I’d best get some more ordered.
I'm just finishing my split litre from about the same time, I kept 500ml, I've used more flushing fluid than gear oil, so that's gone first. 
In the intervening years, Rohloff seem to have caught on to people splitting what were sold as workshop tins, and now sell in 250ml quantities, cleverly priced to be substantially dearer per ml than the big bottles, but not quite substantial enough to bother with the hassle of splitting... The new oil looks considerably different to the grey stuff we've been using, though the SJS photos show different oils depending on the quantity, I have no doubt that whatever they're selling will be fine.  I haven't decided which quantity to buy yet, my Rohloff collection has grown to three, but I can't imagine I'll be doing the same mileage in another 15 years.
I'm tempted to start using the method in the "Living with a Rohloff" brochure - double flush, add 25ml oil, mix, drain most of it out again.  But that obviously uses twice as much flush as oil and I haven't seen them sold other than together(Though I haven't looked hard)  I'm also tempted to do them all every January, maybe the same weekend, save having to remember which is due when, though the most used bike might need an extra one mid year. 
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on September 05, 2020, 03:12:45 pm
One change this year, I swapped my normal Earl Grey for Yorkshire Tea during the 15 min drainage.
Never mind the oil permutations, I'm more concerned about your change of tea.
I'm a confirmed Earl Grey man myself.
I always get a perfect oil change with that brew.
Yorkshire sounds a bit risqué.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: geocycle on September 05, 2020, 04:09:48 pm
Yes Matt, I am braced for reduced performance for the next 12 months due to the tea faux pas... worrying times!
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on September 05, 2020, 06:08:22 pm
Earl Grey with extra lime and honey was a famous energy drink* among pioneer cyclists. A long time ago I saw an ancient advertisement of a bicycle with odd-diameter wheels which had a boiler on a cantilever frame over the rear wheel so that tea could be made instantly at any stop. (A dangerous contraption, I would've thought.) Or maybe the tea was already in it, say Red Bush Tea, the soldier's comfort, which is stewed rather than infused.

*For the enlightenment of the younger members, you pour the tea into the cyclist, like a can of Red Bull, not the Rohloff.

PS I was saving up this vivid memory for a game of True or False next April, if the Chinese Pandemic lasts that long, but since it was obviously an engineering reality (or at least the drawing had all kinds of details of interest to engineers), I'll fledge it here.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Pavel on September 05, 2020, 06:22:20 pm
What are the fine points in regards to the differences between the Earl Gray and Yorkshire teas?

Myself, I’ve not noticed a second drain plug for tea of any sort on my Rohloff. I know I really should read the instructions, but then forum members always save the day. I’m due for a change soon as well.

For better performance, is it milk in first?
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: geocycle on September 05, 2020, 07:19:33 pm
Sorry for the in-joke Pavel. It stems from Thorn’s Oil change video which suggests drinking tea while waiting for the oil to drain. Yorkshire Tea is a good work day blend whereas Earl Grey with essence of bergamot is a little more refined.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Danneaux on September 05, 2020, 08:37:15 pm
Quote
A long time ago I saw an ancient advertisement of a bicycle with odd-diameter wheels which had a boiler on a cantilever frame over the rear wheel so that tea could be made instantly at any stop.
GB_vintage_lightweight_cycles on Instagram has photos of a nifty on-bike tea-brewing kit based around a No. 96 Primus stove.

See: https://www.instagram.com/p/CEuMJSCFUBk/

Surely something similar could be adapted to a Thorn Rohloff-equipped bike to ensure proper tea brews and oil changes while on the road? ;)

Best,

Dan.

(photo attached below courtesy of the link above)
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on September 06, 2020, 04:28:04 am
Surely something similar could be adapted to a Thorn Rohloff-equipped bike to ensure proper tea brews and oil changes while on the road? ;)


Did you read the accompanying text on Instagram? There's a whole cluster of these lunatics egging each other on. There's even special hardware (Terry clips*) for attaching the Primus stove to the top tube between one's legs. No, thank you! I'll pass. That contraption is a bomb waiting to go off, right next to the family jewels. Gives a whole new meaning to "taking one for the team".

That'll teach me to believe that any particular lunacy, just because it is ancient, has passed.

*The British value their eccentrics, who are all called Terry. Their patron saint is Heath Robinson.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: martinf on September 06, 2020, 07:40:25 am
Did you read the accompanying text on Instagram? There's a whole cluster of these lunatics egging each other on. There's even special hardware (Terry clips*) for attaching the Primus stove to the top tube between one's legs. No, thank you! I'll pass. That contraption is a bomb waiting to go off, right next to the family jewels. Gives a whole new meaning to "taking one for the team".

That'll teach me to believe that any particular lunacy, just because it is ancient, has passed.

If the stove is really ancient (like my old one) it will probably run on paraffin. Which isn't explosive, but the stove needs priming with methylated spirits (or another alcohol). These two fuels have their own problems - UK paraffin and meths both stink, so are best carried outside the luggage bags. I can understand the idea of fixing the stove to the frame.

When I used my paraffin stove for cycle camping it went in a rear pocket on one pânnier, which I only used for the stove and meths, or for tools when not carrying the stove. The paraffin went in an aluminium bottle in a bottle holder under the down tube, a position I don't like to use for drinking water as a bottle here tends to pick up road muck. There are lots of industrial pig farms here in Brittany, so road muck can be quite smelly at times and might pose a risk of microbial infection.

I now have another Swedish product, a Trangia. This runs on alcohol and is much simpler, no pumping needed, and only one fuel. French "alcool à brûler" is easier to find in small quantities than the local equivalent of paraffin and doesn't generally have a nasty smell.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: WorldTourer on September 06, 2020, 12:24:31 pm
It is odd to read here about UK paraffin stinking. As far as “white gas” goes, is the UK stuff of much lower purity than Coleman fuel, Primus Powerfuel, or the brand of bencina blanca that cyclists rely on in Chile (the one with the atom logo on it)?

None of those really stink; they have a nice, clean smell and can indeed be used as a cleaning product. When using those fuels, if I just leave my MSR pump and stove in the open air for 20 minutes after disassembly, the fuel evaporates entirely and absolutely no smell remains. So, I just pack my pump and stove in a pannier with everything else.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on September 06, 2020, 01:50:01 pm
It is odd to read here about UK paraffin stinking. As far as “white gas” goes, is the UK stuff of much lower purity than Coleman fuel, Primus Powerfuel, or the brand of bencina blanca that cyclists rely on in Chile (the one with the atom logo on it)?

Paraffin is kerosene rather than white gas, the latter being a refined petrol.  The safety of paraffin is that the vapour at normal temperature and pressure isn't flammable.
EDIT - Guide here
https://cyclocamping.com/blog/2015/08/06/understand-the-different-fuels-for-camping-stoves/
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: martinf on September 06, 2020, 02:53:42 pm
When using those fuels, if I just leave my MSR pump and stove in the open air for 20 minutes after disassembly, the fuel evaporates entirely and absolutely no smell remains. So, I just pack my pump and stove in a pannier with everything else.

I had an MSR stove for a while, but I found it even more fiddly to use than my old Optimus, which is why I went for the Trangia instead. But the multifuel capability of an MSR is probably worthwhile for long-distance touring, especially out of Europe. 

When I did have the MSR I used a tip found on Internet :
- I cut the bottom third off a suitably-sized clear plastic mineral water bottle and used this as a cap, sliding it over the MSR pump, which I left installed on the fuel bottle. The fuel bottle was then carried on the bike in a bottle cage under the down tube. The cap protected the pump from road muck and minor knocks. 
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: steve216c on September 30, 2020, 08:24:51 am
You can't get Rohloff oil in 1 liter bottles any more? SJS seem to have UK stock available for GBP 120

There are several German stores who also stock it and appear to ship outside of Germany. Just search for Rohloff 8406 on google.

Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on September 30, 2020, 11:35:09 am
You can't get Rohloff oil in 1 liter bottles any more?
I don't think anyone has suggested that it isn't available.
But it used to be common for people to buy what was described as a workshop quantity and split it between two or more users.  After all, with one hub and an annual 15ml change, 1litre  would last 60 years! Even at 25ml it would last 40 years. 
The point I was making earlier is that the price difference per ml between the newer 250ml size and the 1lt is still substantial, but not really enough to go to the hassle of buying the larger and splitting.
Of course the correct answer is to buy more hubs ;)
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: steve216c on September 30, 2020, 07:06:16 pm
My bad. I misread the original post that back in the early days only 1 liter bottles were available as 1 liter bottles were no longer available

Must have been the Tetley tea steaming up my reading glasses.

 :o
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on September 30, 2020, 09:49:22 pm
I usually tag on oil to any order I place with SJS.
For the previous two orders the small bottles have been out of stock. Fortunately, I have a small supply in stock myself.
Fingers crossed I don't have to go for the 1 litre sizes.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on October 01, 2020, 01:25:59 pm
Must have been the Tetley tea steaming up my reading glasses.

Only too right. Real men drink stewed Red Bush Tea with condensed milk from a tin.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: energyman on October 01, 2020, 04:12:07 pm
Must have been the Tetley tea steaming up my reading glasses.

Only too right. Real men drink stewed Red Bush Tea with condensed milk from a tin.

Don't wish to sound snobbish but I always use a mug or a cup.
The thought of Conni Onni with tea takes me way back to watchkeeping days.......
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: John Saxby on October 01, 2020, 07:03:41 pm
Condensed milk with tea is Yer Essential Restorative for me -- even today, our daughter says, "Reminds me of paddling and camping, Dad!"  Friends just roll their eyes when the subject is mentioned -- no accounting for taste, is there?

Speaking of which, I have to declare myself a heretic, Andre -- I never developed a taste for rooibos, tho' I'm very fond of honeybos.

OTOH, the best black tea I've ever had remains Tanganda--with condensed milk, of course--from the Vumba in Zimbabwe's Eastern Highlands. It's very hard to get these days, for all the reasons we know about, but a friend sent me half a kilo not long ago.  It's jealously guarded, handed out only to the handful of friends who've ever heard of it.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on October 01, 2020, 08:08:16 pm
I usually tag on oil to any order I place with SJS.
For the previous two orders the small bottles have been out of stock. Fortunately, I have a small supply in stock myself.
Fingers crossed I don't have to go for the 1 litre sizes.
I know in the grand scheme of things it can be considered a minor annual expense, still I couldn't bring myself to pay £250+ a litre for oil that's available for £90 or £60.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: steve216c on October 08, 2020, 08:22:07 am
Must have been the Tetley tea steaming up my reading glasses.

Only too right. Real men drink stewed Red Bush Tea with condensed milk from a tin.

 :o good tea needs no condensed milk. Or any milk. Germans love to drop condensed milk into their tea  :-\ (shudder!). Only good if you need to hide the full flavour of poor quality teas.  Same as 'Starbuck' type flavourings added to mask lower quality coffee.  A decent cuppa char or joe can be savoured if the quality is right without the need to dilute it with milk, flavourings or other temptations.

On the other hand- while I ponder what drink I'll savour during my oil change later this month, I wonder how my bike would enjoy the added flavour of Speedhub oil mixed with a drop of methylated spirits or a dash E10 unleaded added just for the fun of it?  ;D
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: leftpoole on October 08, 2020, 10:40:31 am
Condensed Milk! The stuff of nightmare reminders of childhood. Ugh horrible stuff.......
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: rafiki on October 08, 2020, 10:58:06 am
Lovely stuff! As a kid in the fifties I used to eat it by the spoonful. I don't drink tea but it's quite nice in coffee.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: John Saxby on October 08, 2020, 02:17:32 pm
C'mon you lot.  Everyone knows that it was condensed milk and bread and dripping that got the Brits through Their Darkest Hour.  (Not together, mind...)

Anecdotal-and-unassailable confirmation: A few years ago, I was sitting on a bench beside my camp on the Rideau Canal, cuppa tea'n'condensed milk in hand, when a 70-ish gent walked by and said hello.  He had a hint of a northern European accent--I was guessing Dutch. We chatted, and I asked him if he'd like some tea, apologizing that I had good black tea, but only some condensed milk. He said, "I love that stuff! It reminds me of my childhood." "Oh?" sez I, "how so?" He said, "I was born in Holland, and when I was about seven, just before the war, my family moved to the UK. Throughout the war, we had only condensed milk, and it's my overwhelming memory of that time, and a good one. Strange thing is, almost nobody uses condensed milk nowadays, and some people haven't even heard of it."

"Ah," sez I. ""Tis only a few connoisseurs that know this secret. Who'd ever have guessed, eh?"
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on October 08, 2020, 02:50:26 pm
I have nothing against Condensed Milk in its rightful place, which is neither in red bush or coffee, these should contain nothing else but water.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: rafiki on October 08, 2020, 04:37:55 pm
C'mon you lot.  Everyone knows that it was condensed milk and bread and dripping that got the Brits through Their Darkest Hour.  (Not together, mind...)

Sugar sandwiches, too!
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on October 09, 2020, 02:13:16 am
You Knights of the Secret Handshake of the Condensed Milk Brotherhood of Long-range Bicycle Tourers should be careful how you proselytise. On a writer's chat group we were talking about the age-old battle between Good and Ev-- sorry, I mean Vegemite and Marmite. An American writer who'd never heard of either put in an order to Amazon to try Marmite and the next thing we heard Amazon was delivering USD90's worth of Marmite to her every month and she was eating it out of the bottle with a spoon, and wasn't keen at all to believe us when we explained that Marmite is intended to be spread thinly on bread or toast and covered by sliced banana.

Another oddie. I was listening on the radio to the manager of the British team of teenage stunt cyclists or mud pluggers, anyhow the fellows on the amazing little nimble bikes, being interviewed. He said that their instant energy food of choice was Fig Rolls, because they contain just the correct balance of sugar and starch, and fat correctly to schedule its release as energy. I knew something of this already: as a young rugby player at Stellenbosch under Danie Craven, by training a physiologist, we were fed a diet of steak and boiled potatoes (yech!); I had, all by myself, without knowing anything of the theory, arrived at Fig Rolls as my handlebar energy boost of choice.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on October 09, 2020, 05:15:08 pm
This is spooky.
Only yesterday I found out why Marmite is so named.
Those interested will be chatting to Mr.Google shortly.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on October 09, 2020, 08:03:12 pm
This is spooky.
Only yesterday I found out why Marmite is so named.
Those interested will be chatting to Mr.Google shortly.

From the Oxford Dictionary:
'a proper Marmite sitcom, which people are either utterly loving or totally despising' [.] 'There is a possibility that they'll become the Marmite of Manchester's music scene and half of the local audience will find them impossible to love.'
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: John Saxby on October 10, 2020, 04:44:11 pm
Quote
Marmite is intended to be spread thinly on bread or toast and covered by sliced banana

Ah -- this might explain why a friend from California whom I knew in Zambia years ago used to eat Marmite spread thinly on toast, then covered with peanut butter. (PB & bananas being a Thing, esp in the U.S.)
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Mike Ayling on October 11, 2020, 07:29:58 am
I thought the preferred snack was peanut butter and jelly (aka jam for a lot our members) in the land of the free and home of the brave.

Mike
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: JohnR on May 30, 2021, 09:53:20 pm
It's only 2,100 miles since the last oil change but the arrival of warmer weather prompted me to change the oil. It definitely flows better in warm weather and is more willing to be sucked out of the hub so not enough time to boil a kettle.

There's still plenty of fine metal in the oil (the bigger particles in the photo are contamination from the stick that I used to stir the oil before the photo). How many miles before the used oil looks more like oil and less like metal particle soup?
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on May 30, 2021, 10:40:36 pm
It's only 2,100 miles since the last oil change but the arrival of warmer weather prompted me to change the oil. It definitely flows better in warm weather and is more willing to be sucked out of the hub so not enough time to boil a kettle.

There's still plenty of fine metal in the oil (the bigger particles in the photo are contamination from the stick that I used to stir the oil before the photo). How many miles before the used oil looks more like oil and less like metal particle soup?

Interesting picture and info.
May I ask how many previous oil changes have been carried out and age of hub?

Best

Matt
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: JohnR on May 31, 2021, 08:42:04 am
Interesting picture and info.
May I ask how many previous oil changes have been carried out and age of hub?
This was the second oil change at 4446 miles. The first, in early December 2020, was at 2327 miles (bike bought new in July 2020). I suspect that the first change wasn't so good at flushing out the muck (although plenty came out) due to the oil being more viscous. I was originally expecting to get through to the spring before needing to change the oil but clocked up the miles faster than I expected.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on May 31, 2021, 11:01:14 am
I can't make the photo out, my oil just comes out black, my newest hub has had oil changes at about 1,000 and 3,000 miles, any metal particles were too small for the naked eye, mine anyway. 
Square cut gears do wear in, that's a good thing, rather than something to worry about. 
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: Andre Jute on May 31, 2021, 09:58:46 pm
I can't make the photo out, my oil just comes out black, my newest hub has had oil changes at about 1,000 and 3,000 miles, any metal particles were too small for the naked eye, mine anyway. 
Square cut gears do wear in, that's a good thing, rather than something to worry about.

Use a magnet (a fridge magnet does well) in the oil to attract the filings so you can see them, or rub some of the dirty oil between the fingers of one hand while with the fingers of other hand rubbing clean oil to feel the difference, which is iron filings.
Title: Re: Oil change therapy
Post by: PH on May 31, 2021, 10:31:07 pm
Here's what it says on the Rohloff website:
Quote
In the first 1000km use, the Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14 loses microscopic particles from all functioning components as part of the hubs last fine filing.