Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Philly69 on April 28, 2020, 06:51:29 pm
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I purchased a large frame Kevin Sayles 2nd hand Thorn EXP last year for £120 including postage. It comes with the original drop handlebars and it's a Prototype model from around 2000. I was informed by the seller that it belonged to the now sadly deceased Audax cyclist David Lewis http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/david-lewis
David mentions in the website link, buying 2 Exp's: "I had bought two Expedition Touring bikes from Thorn Cycles, took them to Sri Lanka with me and Anne & I undertook a three week bike tour of as much as the island as was accessible at that time." A strange coincidence is that my mate bought Anne's Exp off her. What are the chances of that??
Anyway, the bike needs a bit of TLC. I'm planning on keeping the frame paint job as is and just sanding down the flaky paint/rust spots and repainting with enamel paint. I want to replace the handlebars with straight one's which will mean changing the brake levers, grips and shifters. Any recommendations here?
I've already removed the BB which had a lot of play in it. I'll keep the XT crankset + derailleurs although I'll probably upgrade the jockey wheels and chainrings and get a new chain and cassette.
I'm debating whether to replace the forks with originals as the one's on it at the moments aren't original. Judging by the fact that there's a Mavic 317 on the front instead of the Sunrim Rhyno it came with originally, I suspect the bike has been in a crash. I've checked the head tube and there doesn't seem to be any damage to the welds.
I'll keep the SKS mudguards which are in OK condition except for a bit of a crack on the rear one.
The idea is to keep the bike looking a bit tatty so as to deter thieves, as I already own a mint condition Thorn Raven Tour. Any thoughts on this little project welcome.
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That's nice, and a great history. I rode the start of an Audax with Dave, maybe as much as three miles before I was well and truly dropped and didn't see that group again. Though I also benefited from some of those he organised from Newport.
Re the forks - I'd see how it rides. as a prototype you might not get exact replacement anyway. The aesthetics of a unicrown do let it down IMO, though as you're not going for showroom condition it might not be important.
My preferences for controls - It'd use Deore V brakes and levers, they don't break the bank and they work faultless. For shifters, if the bar ends are functioning OK, I'd get the J-Tek converters to use on flat bars, about £30 . Though I recently had a cheap hack bike with the cheapest of Shimano trigger shifters and they worked fine.
When I've converted bikes from drops to flat, I've gone for a slightly longer stem, this compensates for the shorter top tube, as you'll know Thorn frames come long and short depending on the intended bars.
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When I've converted bikes from drops to flat, I've gone for a slightly longer stem, this compensates for the shorter top tube, as you'll know Thorn frames come long and short depending on the intended bars.
Yes.
Although so far (this may change as I get older) I have generally done this the other way - converting from flat to drops with a shorter stem.
Usually quite a lot shorter if the bike was comfortable for me with flat bars. Unless you already know your target riding position, an adjustable stem can be useful.
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A KS frame for £120 is a real bargain !
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That is one lovely frame / cycle you got there Phil. I am a big fan of the gloss/matte silver finish (plated/anodized silver) for bicycle parts such as rims, stem, spacers, headset cups, seat-post, handlebars, crank arms etc as opposed to the anodized black alternative. I think they bring a highlight to any frame colour but especially high contrast like your black frame. Since all those parts of yours are already silver then I would finish the flat bar conversion with a gloss silver handlebar and matching seat-post. Although I prefer, my bike came with such parts black from the factory; a niggle but doesn't warrant changing them so I just put up with.
On the other hand, shiny silver parts do reflect the sun and stand out so might be something to consider if your aim is to use her often, lock up in high street locations and feel overall more confident she won't be a target. I suppose it will also depend on your daily business for her, example going to the cinema, locking outside and then coming back from the feature film to your ride home sort of situation. I admit I fall into this category where I feel the need to keep an eye on my bike at all times even during a short pit-stop. I think it comes to a point where one doesn't ride his/her beloved bicycle as often as the bicycle deserves. Safe to say that I should teach myself better to let go of the fear of losing. 'Lock up at your best, if she goes, she goes.'
The rims might of possibly came from the Thorn factory of different brand to meet pricing with the tougher sun rim on the rear maybe to better withstand pannier bag weight or another possibility the front rim braking surface wore out so needing replacing down the line. Who knows...
Best of luck with the rebuild/restoration. Maybe I will see you out riding her in the near future, assuming the previous owner was Cardiff based you may be local-ish to my area, Cwmbran.
Kyle
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Wow PH, great that you started a Audax race with Dave and judging from his Blog I wouldn't be too worried of being "dropped." Re the forks, I've seen some Thorn Nomad forks from SJS that Robin Thorn assures me will fit so I think I'll go with those to improve the overall aesthetics.
Deore V brakes and levers could be the way to go as that's what the current Nomad comes with. The current one's are Suntour xc brakes that don't have glowing reviews. Is the Jtek ShiftMate the device to change gearing from barend to flat bars? I'm thinking Shimano trigger shifters may be a better solution. I'll see what the fit is like when I put the straight bars on which will determine whether to invest in a different stem.
martinf sounds interesting. I may look into that option.
energyman I think £120 aint bad considering it came with wheels, tyres, rear rack, mudguards and hopefullly servicable XT crankset and derailleurs.
Yes spoof it's not bad considering its a prototype built by Kevin Sayles and has the interesting history attached to it. Re the shiny bits, I prefer the black finish lol. I'll make do with the bits that are on it to keep costs down. I've priced up replacement forks and all the other gubbins and it still comes to around the £500 mark.
The rebuild/restoration should be fine as I've loads of time with the lockdown and I live on my own so no one to upset or upset me lol. I'm from Cardiff but now live in the Taff Bargoed valley which has been the perfect place to cycle with all the great National cycle Network Routes close by. I am now familiar with every valley and valley town in South Wales and one of my favourite rides is Treharris to Newport via the Sirhowy Valley route.
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Is the Jtek ShiftMate the device to change gearing from barend to flat bars? I'm thinking Shimano trigger shifters may be a better solution.
Same company (it might have some connection with SJS?) but an entirely different product, these are just brackets which allow you to move the bar end shifters onto straight bars
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/jtek-special-thumb-shifter-brackets-for-222-mm-bars-black/
I'd probably have gone for the correct fork as well, it's one thing thinking it wouldn't matter, but you still have to look at it every day and if it looks wrong it probably is.
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Thanks PH but I think I'll go with some new Shimano Shift levers as I think it will look better.
I've been looking at the Unicrown recently and it's a little distracting to say the least. I gave my frame measurements to Robin Thorn and he has told me which Thorn forks he thinks will fit. Should look good once it's all finished and I'll post some photos up once complete.
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Spoof wrote...
I am a big fan of the gloss/matte silver finish (plated/anodized silver) for bicycle parts such as rims, stem, spacers, headset cups, seat-post, handlebars, crank arms etc as opposed to the anodized black alternative. I think they bring a highlight to any frame colour but especially high contrast like your black frame. Since all those parts of yours are already silver then I would finish the flat bar conversion with a gloss silver handlebar and matching seat-post. Although I prefer, my bike came with such parts black from the factory; a niggle but doesn't warrant changing them so I just put up with.
Philly69 replied...
Re the shiny bits, I prefer the black finish lol. I'll make do with the bits that are on it to keep costs down.
Might a possible swap of some colored pieces make for mutual benefit? :D
What a wonderful project and history, Philly; looking forward to the finished resto.
All the best,
Dan.
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Same company (it might have some connection with SJS?) but an entirely different product, these are just brackets which allow you to move the bar end shifters onto straight bars
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/jtek-special-thumb-shifter-brackets-for-222-mm-bars-black/
Robin Thorn bought 'J Tek' some time ago and sells all the original and some new items through St John St Cycles.
John
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Thanks Dan, yes maybe I could change some bits, I'll see how the project develops.
Thanks John. Those brackets look good but I think some Shimano Shift levers would look better.
I seem to be spending lots of time researching on this forum and other's instead of actually working on my bikes. I have another Thorn bike which is a Raven Tour but fitting the Thorn Expedition Steel Rear Cycle Pannier Rack is upsetting me a bit as I've cut the steel stays with an angle grinder and the cut is a little rough to say the least. I'll either have to invest in a vice and dremel tool or maybe get a finer cutting wheel for a cleaner cut. Alternatively I could maybe take the stays to a mechanics/garage to get cut?
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Hello,
In respect to the Thorn rear rack mounting stays.They are indeed tough and can be difficult to cut.
The best and easiest method is a bench vice and a good blade in a Hacksaw. You seem from your writing not to have these? So I guess a local engineer willing to trim and bend?
Best regards,
John
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Hi,
I went out and bought some hacksaw blades but I’m missing a bench vice.
Seems a little 0TT for me to fork out for a bench vice just to cut the stays as I don’t think I’ll be needing a vice that often.
Best,
Phil
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I don’t think I’ll be needing a vice that often.
It's a bit of an investment, for sure. OTOH, I bought one about 30 years ago when I was restoring an old English ex-comp motorcycle. I used it a lot for that project, but continue to use regularly it for all sorts of domestic repairs, and for cutting and filing things like alloy bike racks, etc., etc.
If you do shell out for one, suggest you get one that can be easily rotated. And, two magnetic and slightly padded inserts for the jaws will protect easily marred metals, such as alloy.
Dremel tools are also very handy, but I rarely use mine now -- nowhere near as frequently as my vise.
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Thanks John. Your making the idea of a vice purchase all the more appealing. Any recommendations of brand/make?
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I used a hacksaw to cut, holding the stays in a bench vice. Then files to smooth and round off the cut edges. I also bent the stays to fit the mountings better, again using the bench vice and a large adjustable spanner.
If you have a bench (or old table or similar) one or two C-clamps might work as a substitute for the bench vise, or you could take the stays to a friend or acquaintance who has a bench vise.
But I second John's advice, my bench vice was one of the first tools I bought when I first set up home 40 years ago, it has been extremely useful for all kinds of things, not just bicycles.
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Hello,
Yes indeed a Record or similar brand bench vise costs not a great deal and over a short time will recoup its worth.
Best to all,
John
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'Kay, Phil, here you go:
Below, a photo of my Record 4" No. 3 vise, Made in England. (!!) It has a rotating base -- the long bolt head protruding from the base of the vise, immediately below the "Record" name, is one of two which fix or release the vise.
(Full disclosure: Having recommended a vise with rotating base, and indeed having purchased one, I have to confess I've never used this feature.)
Look at the slightly open jaws, and facing you, is one of my pair of magnetic work protectors. These items have a band of ~1/8" thick ribbed red dense-but-slightly-soft rubber which grips the work. The jaws of the vise are knurled -- OK for anything where it doesn't matter if the surface is marred, but not what you want for holding a steel or alloy bike rack.
What will you use vise and magnetic inserts for? Well, just last week I had to cut a couple of 2" sections of 3/4" x 3/4" angle alloy, and then drill each with 4 holes to accept wood screws. The two bits of angle alloy were fastened to two old but quite lovely kitchen-counter bar stools, whose legs and seats were flexing far too much.
I could not have done this repair without the item you are looking at. (Plus a good hacksaw and 3/8" electric drill, of course.)
Why would I repair two old wooden bar stools? Well, there's a story here that Andre will enjoy if he's reading this: We were leaving South Africa in 2006, after spending three years in Pretoria, where my wife was working at the Canadian High Commission. Not far from her office was a small woodworking operation, which advertised "Furniture Made from Antique Oregon Pine". I asked the owner where he got his wood. He said--get this--that his wood came from the ceilings and floors of old houses in Jo'burg and the wider Rand which were now being knocked down. They had been the first houses built in the area after the goldmines were established in the 1880s -- that is, in the 1890s. I also asked him about the "Oregon Pine", because I had noticed that the grain is more like a northern pine, denser than the southern pine grown in places like South Africa or Georgia and the Carolinas in the U.S. He said he thought it had come from Oregon. Could be--that pine in native to the Pacific NW of North America, though it seems a long way to ship it, across the Pacific & Indian Oceans... In any event, we bought four chairs and three cabinets, and they grace our kitchen, dining room, and living room. And my vise keeps 'em there.
Now, to help you with rough-and-ready repairs, take a look at the nice flat surface of the moving body of the vise, just above the "Made in England" casting: I use this as an anvil to hammer flat anything that's fairly thin and needs to be, well, flattened. For this I have a very useful 2-lb bench sledge hammer.
Good luck, eh?
Cheers, John
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I asked the owner where he got his wood. He said--get this--that his wood came from the ceilings and floors of old houses in Jo'burg and the wider Rand which were now being knocked down. They had been the first houses built in the area after the goldmines were established in the 1880s -- that is, in the 1890s. I also asked him about the "Oregon Pine", because I had noticed that the grain is more like a northern pine, denser than the southern pine grown in places like South Africa or Georgia and the Carolinas in the U.S. He said he thought it had come from Oregon.
John, in the Australian goldrush in the 1850s pre-fab housing was a common thing and flat pack dwellings were shipped to Oz from all over the British Empire but also from the US. The British houses were frequently made from tin and iron components - products of the industrial revolution. The US houses were made of west coast timbers and (I think) either shipped as preassembled walls etc, or simply as pre-cut and labeled timber planks. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the later South African gold rush followed a similar pattern and used the same supply chains.
Syd
Edit: Just found a nice story on gold rush kit homes here: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-05-03/tiny-kit-homes-helped-solve-melbourne-gold-rush-housing-crisis/9680898
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Thanks, Syd -- hugely interesting detail of early globalisation! The imperatives of gold generate all sorts of innovation, eh? Good to know that the three Melbourne dwellings have been preserved.
I had thought that I might have been looking, not at west-coast pine, but pine from the Ottawa Valley or New Brunswick. Both of those sources are relatively close to SA, and the Ottawa Valley was past its peak, but still producing a lot of timber. I expect that the knowledge of the supply chains from the mid-19th century would have survived, as you say, and the west-coast pine was still there.
The house we live in in Ottawa was built in 1907, originally a frame (timber) house, later covered with brick. It's quite modest, but there's a lot of BC fir in its interior construction. That lumber is highly prized today because it's comparatively scarce. A friend who's a builder reckons that whoever built our house probably bought a load cheap from BC.
A nice detail in our SA furniture is the old rectangular nailholes, all filled as part of the reclamation process, but still visible.
Cheers, John
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I purchased a large Kevin Sayles 2nd hand Thorn EXP frame last year for £120 including postage. It comes with the original drop handlebars and it's a Prototype model from around 2000. I was informed by the seller that it belonged to the now sadly deceased Audax cyclist David Lewis http://www.ukcyclist.co.uk/david-lewis
David mentions in the website link, buying 2 Exp's: "I had bought two Expedition Touring bikes from Thorn Cycles, took them to Sri Lanka with me and Anne & I undertook a three week bike tour of as much as the island as was accessible at that time." A strange coincidence is that my mate bought Anne's Exp off her. What are the chances of that??
Anyway, the bike needs a bit of TLC. I'm planning on keeping the frame paint job as is and just sanding down the flaky paint/rust spots and repainting with enamel paint. I want to replace the handlebars with straight one's which will mean changing the brake levers, grips and shifters. Any recommendations here?
I've already removed the BB which had a lot of play in it. I'll keep the XT crankset + derailleurs although I'll probably upgrade the jockey wheels and chainrings and get a new chain and cassette.
I'm debating whether to replace the forks with originals as the one's on it at the moments aren't original. Judging by the fact that there's a Mavic 317 on the front instead of the Sunrim Rhyno it came with originally, I suspect the bike has been in a crash. I've checked the head tube and there doesn't seem to be any damage to the welds.
I'll keep the SKS mudguards which are in OK condition except for a bit of a crack on the rear one.
The idea is to keep the bike looking a bit tatty so as to deter thieves, as I already own a mint condition Thorn Raven Tour. Any thoughts on this little project welcome.
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So here is my upgraded Thorn Exp. As the original paintwork had failed around the chain stays and rear wheel drop outs I decided to have the frame shotblasted and powder coated in the original black colour.
It may have been nice to have restored it with original parts but I think they would've been hard to source considering the bike was produced over 20 years ago in 2000. As it was designed as an expedition tourer I thought I'd remain faithful to this and decided to upgrade a lot of components after reading Tom’s Expedition Bike blog on https://tomsbiketrip.com/how-to-build-the-ultimate-round-the-world-expedition-touring-bike/
Here is most of the original kit list that came with the bike (certain parts were too worn to see what they were originally):
Headset: Orbit xlII Headset Threadless headset
Stem: FSA Stem
Shifters: Shimano Bar End Shifters
Wheels: The rear wheel is a Sun Rhyno on Shimano Deore XT Hb-m750 32 Hole Hub
The front wheel is a Mavic 317 on Shimano Deore XT Hb-m750 32 Hole Hub
Crankset: Shimano Deore Crankset
Cassette: Shimano 8 Speed
Derailleurs: Shimano XT Front
Shimano XT Rear
Rear Rack: Blackburn
Mudguards: SKS Chromoplastic Mudguards 55mm
Saddle: Velo Plush seat
Brakes: Suntour XC Brakes
Forks: Unicrown
Here is the kit list/what I had done in my upgrade:
Original Kevin Sayles built frame Sandblasted, powder coated and Bottom Bracket retap
Headset: FSA Headset Orbit XLII
Stem: FSA Stem (kept the original but may upgrade to a longer/adjustable stem)
Shifters: Shimano Bar End Shifters on Jtek Special Thumb Shifter Brackets
Wheels: The rear wheel is a Sun Rhyno on Shimano Deore XT Hb-m750 32 Hole Hub
The front wheel is a Mavic 317 on Shimano Deore XT Hb-m750 32 Hole Hub (kept original’s but both have slight buckle so will get them trued)
Tyres: Schwalbe Marathon Mondial x 2
Inner tubes: Schwalbe SV13 Presta Tube X 2
Crankset: Shimano FC-M361, 170-175mm, 22-32-42T Chainset
Pedals: Shimano PD-A530 Sport Dual-Sided Pedal
Cassette: Cassette Shimano Acera HG41 8 Speed
Chain: KMC X8 8 Speed
Derailleurs: Shimano XT Front (kept original)
Shimano Alivio T4000 Long Cage Rear
Rear Rack: Will buy a Tubus logo rear rack
Mudguards: SKS Chromoplastic Mudguards 55mm (new replacement as old one's were damaged)
Saddle: Velo Plush seat
Brakes: Suntour XC Brakes (ordered new replacements for £4.99 a set from SJS Cycles and work great)
Tektro Power Hanger required for front brakes which are reversed on the Thorn Mk2 Forks
Forks: 26 inch Thorn Nomad Mk2 Steel Fork
New Gear + Brake cables
Bottom Bracket: Shimano BBUN55 Square Taper
Brake Levers: Shimano Deore T610 Trekking V-Brake Levers
Handlebar: M Part Flat Bar 25.4 mm
Grips: Ergon Gp3 Comfort Grips
Saddle: Brooks B17 Saddle
Kickstand: Pletscher Multi Zoom Rear Kickstand (yet to fit but may buy Click stand instead)
The whole project came to just shy of £700 which aint bad for an original Kevin Sayles frame with (mostly) new components. I've taken it for a ride it feels solid and dependable and a lot nippier than my Rohloff equipped Thorn Raven Tour. There are few things to iron out. Both wheels need truing as there's a slight buckle in both. I will replace the stem for one with a steeper angle for a more upright riding position similar to what I have on my Thorn Raven. The front brake needs tweaking as it's a bit of a skill to get the Tektro cable hanger and Suntour XC brakes to work smoothly. All in all a lovely project to work on and hopefully I will be taking it on some tours as soon as COVID restrictions allow.
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Well done! Looks like it was a very satisfying project.
I’ll look out for it when situation permits more “Carrying on up the Valleys”. Our full group’s last ride was a week before lockdown #1 - a 44 mile loop starting and finishing at Fourteen Locks via Caerphilly and Pontypridd, lunching at the Glantaff Inn and returning via Treharris and the Sirhowy Valley. Just hoping that the Glantaff Inn will survive the pandemic and get back in business before too long.
T.
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Beautiful !!
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Thanks chaps. Yes it was a joy to build it up from scratch. Great for touring/Sustrans routes. Your route sounds great. Which cycling club are you in Tony?
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Nice bike, Philly! Super value for 700 quid, too! Fingers crossed for touring in the not-too-distant future.
Cheers, John
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Hi Philly69,
I seem have bought pretty much the same bike as you did; with the same aesthetic problem i.e. the 'wrong' fork (see images attached). How did it pan out in your renovation? (Ignore my question - I've found my way now LOL!)
Paul
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Philly, contributions to my thread asking for help identifying my bike persuade me that your original fork was, well, original (even if I do still think the Nomad style is nicer).
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Philly, contributions to my thread asking for help identifying my bike persuade me that your original fork was, well, original (even if I do still think the Nomad style is nicer).
No, Philly's fork wasn't original, the unicrown design wasn't used on these bikes.
Make no mistake, it is a quality fork on your new bike.
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Philly, contributions to my thread asking for help identifying my bike persuade me that your original fork was, well, original (even if I do still think the Nomad style is nicer).
No, Philly's fork wasn't original, the unicrown design wasn't used on these bikes.
Make no mistake, it is a quality fork on your new bike.
Seconded!
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Ah, the penny's dropped! We're talking about 3 different types of fork not two!
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All going well I will be getting one of these exp’s and considering getting it powder coated and upgrading some or all of the components
Wondering where to get the frame repainted? I’m hearing/reading it’s better to get someone that specialises in painting bike frames
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All going well I will be getting one of these exp’s and considering getting it powder coated and upgrading some or all of the components
My advice would be to get a lot of miles on it before spending any money you don't have to.
Investing in a bike as a long term project is often a good idea, the opposite is true if you decide it isn't the one.
It's an easy trap to fall into - I have two bikes that I don't really need and don't often ride, though they're both superb bikes, if I were to sell them it would be at a considerable loss compared to their value before I spent the money.
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All going well I will be getting one of these exp’s and considering getting it powder coated and upgrading some or all of the components
My advice would be to get a lot of miles on it before spending any money you don't have to.
Investing in a bike as a long term project is often a good idea, the opposite is true if you decide it isn't the one.
It's an easy trap to fall into - I have two bikes that I don't really need and don't often ride, though they're both superb bikes, if I were to sell them it would be at a considerable loss compared to their value before I spent the money.
That makes sense yeah.
I thought the same things, maybe just ride it for a while first and see how it feels.
I might even like the drop bars , who knows!
One thin hmmm I’d like to deal with straight away is rust . Apparently all the tubes and stays are sealed or something (with the exception of the seat tube) so they will never rust from the inside .
But the top tube has a hole ? Drain plug thingy under the bottom bracket ) to let out any condensation/moisture
The owner of the bike showed me some video and pointed out areas of rust . There seemed to be some superficial rust down into the seat tube . The seat post was well oiled tho. I don’t know how I would deal with that 🤔
A new paint job would be nice too. I had a look on Argos racing cycles (£200+) and another couple of places . There was one you had mentioned sending your bike to get powder coated . I found them but as you mentioned they didn’t have much of a web presence . I hear you can get powder coated for less than £100 from some places ?