Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: in4 on February 02, 2018, 07:40:14 pm
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I'm considering getting a bar bag for use whilst touring. I don't intend carrying bricks, small cattle or weighty tomes, just a phone, wallet, first aid kit etc. Reading around the topic there seems to be a debate about using one at all. Some say that a barbag interfers with steering, balance and that it can crowd out handlebar space. Others think they are great for carrying bits and bobs and for being a great map and snack holder.
If you're a barbag user which one do you use? Ortlieb, Vaude, Carradice?
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Ortlieb ultimate 6, great kit.
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Ian,
I carry largish/bulky but not heavy things in mine when possible so as to have minimal affect on handling. It is also my valuables repository so is never left on the bike and comes with me when I leave. It is stowed in the footbox/tail cone of my tent when I sleep. It also carries my electronics while they're being charged by my dybohub charger. Very handy that and waterproof as well.
I bought the Ortlieb Large HB bag because for about the extra weight of an aspirin tablet, I have another 1.5l of capacity, nice for stowing a wind shell or similar.
A real key to avoiding handling problems with a HB bag is minimizing weight carried in it, but almost as important is making sure the weight is carried as low as possible and as close as possible to the steering axis. This is where Thorn's Accessory T-bars are of such great use. They come in 55mm and 105mm forward extensions. I settled on the shorter for my needs 'cos the forward extension of the Ortlieb bracket made up the difference.
Hopefully helpful as another data point.
All the best,
Dan.
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Carradice super C for me.
Only has a 5ltr capacity, but that's enough for my pass through battery, valuables and some snacks - never stays on the bike always with me.
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I have an ortlieb ultimate 4. Works well with some caveats. If it’s not full things rattle inside, if it is full it makes the steering heavier and the front end can swing around alarmingly when parked. The heavy steering is not a big problem you just adjust. I don’t like the bracket that is pretty much permanently fixed to the bike. The cable that supports it isn’t easy to reuse often. I would probably switch to something that buckles onto the wall bars like a carradice but then it’s harder to take indoors with you and I like to use the map pocket on the ortlieb. So I’ve not found the perfect solution yet.
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Agree with everything Dan said for the use of a bar bag. For example, I carry spare sunglasses, but they have almost no weight, so they are as far forward in teh bag as practical away from steering axis, heavier stuff like granola bars or or electronics are in the back (stern) to be closer to the steering axis.
I have two bags that I often use, both are out of production and I modified both, so you are not going to find any like them. Made by Louis Garneau before I started modifying them.
I use the 55mm Thorn accessory bar on my Nomad (first photo).
On three other bikes I use a second stem to mount the bar bag lower and also to not consume valuable handlebar space (other photos, third photo note that I use an adjustable stem to get the mount even lower and closer to the steering axis).
You will notice the handling change with or without the bar bag, but it all depends on how much you put in it.
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i just leave my ortlieb barbag on all the time great bit of kit.holds as much as i want it to hold and never lets a drop of water in. ;)
anto.
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And what do I put in the bag, 1st photo.
The 2nd photo of teh above post did not show the Thorn Accessory bar very well, so added one more photo.
And if you use drop bars with brifters, consider your bar bag width and placement, see 3rd photo.
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Wow! Thank you all so much for posting your suggestions and experiences. I really appreciate reading about your choices of barbag and what you carry in them. I'm inclined to choose a larger type bag that is compartmentalised and has some sort of quick release system. I like the idea of being able to access a bag whilst on the move so a front to rear opener appeals. I'm also mindful of a barbag not impinging upon a front light system so Thorn's accessory bar might be a quite useful aid in this regard.
Thanks again.
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I like the idea of being able to access a bag whilst on the move so a front to rear opener appeals.
I have an Ortlieb 5, which opens from the rear. However the snaps which keep the lid closed are rather tight, so it is difficult to open or close the bag while riding. Maybe other people can manage it, but not me. It is easy to open/close while stopped.
Another reason for opening on the rear is better protection from the rain. With a front-opening lid, it is possible that the wind could push the water into the bag.
I'm also mindful of a barbag not impinging upon a front light system so Thorn's accessory bar might be a quite useful aid in this regard.
If your bike is big enough, you can use a Thorn accessory bar to mount the bag above a crown-mounted light and below a bar-mounted light, if you want to use both types of lights. That's what I do. I'm 6'0" tall and have a 590L Nomad. The accessory bar is mounted at the lowest part of the steerer, just above the headset. My dyno-powered light is mounted on the fork crown, and I have battery-powered lights mounted on my handlebar. I use both kinds of lights because I commute in dark rainy weather and I want to be seen. The batteries for my bar lights are in the handlebar bag. Very convenient.
Another benefit of the accessory bar is that it acts as a clamp on the steerer, so that is possible to remove the handlebars without having the fork fall out of the headset. If you want to adjust your handlebar up or down by removing/adding spacers below the stem, you can do it easily. You can buy a locking headset spacer for this purpose (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/headsets/problem-solvers-locking-headset-spacer-for-1-18-inch-black), but an accessory bar works just as well.
- DaveS
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Ian,
Though I prefer Ortlieb HB bags myself (and their older Ultimate 5 over the later Ultimate 6 for both the snap-secured lid and map case design...the magnets and newer map case of the 6 have proven not as good for me in my use and I much prefer the Large size for each) in the interest of fairness, I should say there are many who prefer the Arkel line over Ortlieb or Carradice so it is well worthwhile to check them out also. Beyond that, Topeak and Axion have their adherents also so you should take a look at those brands before buying.
There's a number of desirable/beautiful handmade canvas-and-leather alternatives offered by Berthoud, Swift and others intended for the randonneur-touring market, but they are designed to be used with a decaleur (handlebar-stem mounted bracket of a specific type; the other half mounts to the bag) and pretty much have to sit atop a front platform rack. Still worth a look, however.
Some of these other bags are only waterproof if you fit a cover...and that can make access difficult while it is raining 'cos the cover must be removed first...and then stowed later, possibly while it is still damp.
Some additional data points: Ortliebs typically come with a sort of stiff foam internal divider. The 5-series was X-shaped and offered up to four divided compartments in the bottom of the bag The 6-series I also own has a divider that forms into a sort of W-shaped sine-wave making up to three compartments. The X-type can be purchased separately and used in other bags and for other applications For example, I have one fitted in my rack-top pack and it works great there. With any of the bags, it is wise to avoid the temptation of leaving the carry-straps attached while riding in case they could foul the front wheel with disastrous consequences. I ride with mine tucked inside the bag and all is well.
Best,
Dan.
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Ian,
If you decide to go the Ortlieb route, you might find it helpful to further organize the contents as I did, by using a couple of sacks closed with drawstrings:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg22707#msg22707
As with Ortlieb panniers, I found it more helpful to place the zippered pouch atop the contents than next to the wall of the bag. Eases access and convenience.
Best,
Dan.
[Edits for spelling and typos. Autocorrect on the phone and outdoors use roadside in sunlight I don't always notice the results aren't always pretty and so need cleanup later.]
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Here's my SuperC on my Nomad:
(https://app.box.com/shared/static/edg8w4xjugczayaw93h4dzisndsbhurs.jpg)
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The Super C are super duper.
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If you cram it full enough, you don't need any dividers.
Rain covers, yeah I have a rain cover for mine since my bags are not water proof. It is a hassle to use, but sometimes you have no choice. Mine is orange in the photo. It pretty much prevents you from using the bag.
If you get the Ortlieb, I think that there has been some discussion of alternate brackets for those bags. That might also be of interest if you want to mount the bag on more than one bike.
I have never seen a Carradry bag, I gave a tiny bit of thought to buying one but did not. That is one more option to contemplate if anyone has tried one.
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I have never seen a Carradry bag,
You should aspire to better company rather than the rabble I suspect you flock with. ;)
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Reading around the topic there seems to be a debate about using one at all. Some say that a barbag interfers with steering, balance and that it can crowd out handlebar space.
I've had 4 handlebar bags over the years, but never really liked them.
3 of them were small, the best of these for waterproofing and ease of access to contents was a small Carradice cotton duck fabric over a plastic shell. On this one I didn't like the mounting system, and the bag tended to bounce on rough surfaces. I have now converted it to use as minimalist luggage for my Brompton - on the proprietary Brompton bracket fixed to the head tube, so much lower and doesn't affect handling at all.
I had a small (less than 5 litres) commercially made bag that simply strapped to the handlebars (centre of stem and over the brake hoods). Used this for a few years, but it wasn't convenient for quick removal to take valuables with me when leaving the bike locked up.
I made myself a minimalist handlebar bag (about 3 litres) that straps with Velcro to the same 3 points (centre of stem and brake hoods). This is small enough not to make any handling difference, and removes fairly quickly, leaving no mounting hardware. I use this bag very occasionally on my lightweight derailleur bike when I need a little more space than is available in my Carradice saddlebag.
I also made myself a large handlebar bag, but quickly abandoned it as I didn't like the interference with access to the handlebars and the effect on steering when loaded. I converted this to a rear rack bag, but never used it much.
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To solve the problem of quickly removing valuables to take with me when parking the bike I have two methods:
- for day trips and other lightly-loaded riding I use a Carradice saddlebag with a quick release mount. Downside is that the mount is more or less permanently fixed to the Brooks saddle.
- when carrying more luggage I use a rucksack. Mostly a very light folding rucksack (about 15 litres), but sometimes a more substantial one, depending on whether I intend to walk far or just explore a town. The small rucksack generally goes into the top of one of my rear panniers, so protected from rain and easily accessed with the snaplock and drawcord closure on my Ortlieb Bikepacker panniers. Exceptionally, if I fill the pannier completely (food stop, etc.), I strap the rucksack on top of the rear rack. If I have more than 4 panniers (rare) I strap the extra luggage on top of the rear rack and the small rucksack goes in one of the front panniers.
If using a bigger rucksack, I just strap it over the rear panniers. I use bin liners inside to keep stuff dry.
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I'm a fan of bar bags, useful for all the reasons that others have mentioned.
I've got three Ortlieb bags, two ultimate 5's and one of indeterminate age. Other brands may have better internal organisation but the Ortliebs win on waterproofing and it doesn't take much ingenuity to customise the Ortlieb bags to suit whatever you're carrying. That's what I've done with the oldest of the three which serves to carry my equally ancient digital SLR. I guess that also answers the question about whether the weight affects the steering. It's a Fuji S3 Pro and weighs more than the bike.
Incidentally I much prefer the Rixen & Kaul Clickfix handlebar fittings. The support cable is just a simple length of plastic covered cable and, when it wears out, it can be replaced with a length of suitably sheathed redundant brake cable.
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Incidentally I much prefer the Rixen & Kaul Clickfix handlebar fittings. The support cable is just a simple length of plastic covered cable and, when it wears out, it can be replaced with a length of suitably sheathed redundant brake cable.
Good point.
If you change the setup and your cable no longer functions, I have often wrapped a bit of electrical tape around a bit of left over brake cable that I had cut off but not discarded yet. The electrical tape was to protect the stem finish where the cable pulls on it. I stopped discarding left over brake cable when I install a new cable because I have done this more than once.
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I have a caradry bag and find it superior to my former Ortlieb bar bag for two reasons. one is minor, and that is that i slightly prefer the super c clasps tp the snaps I had on my old Ortliebs. The other one is of no consequence if it does not bother someone, but it's "nails on the chalkboard" for me - the rounded bottom. Sure it saves steps in construction and the welding of seams thus being cheaper, but i want a flat bottom (on my bar bags) so things stay put and so the divider does not ride up, leaving small parts in thr middle underneath. Both the super C and Carra dry geat that righ as well as what shal likely be my next bag - the Arkels.
I've however stopped using my Carra dry handlebar bag because it takes too much fiddling to close, The new style clasps just don't work for me but worse, one has to stretch the top over the sides to close the bag after opening and it's fiddly, often needing two hands. And then the wheel flops. This is all a bit of deal for me because I'm in the old, long established and unwise habit of reaching into my bag, getting my camera out, taking a few shots and putting it back - while on the go. One of the reasons I want a bike that handles "less lively". You may be thinking I'm fussy. You are right. I have ta get the details just so or Zen eludes me. Zen and a out of time connection with the natural world is why I those shimano spd's on in the first place. :)
Oh and I too think the Clickfix system is kind of great, but am always looking at the over engineered Arkels website, just the same.
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I've had a Vaude Aqua Box* for around 10 years, before that an Ortlieb (Replaced after crash damage, I don't think you could wear these things out!) Quality wise I don't think there's anything between them. I'd have gone for another Ortlieb but the design had changed and I didn't like the curved top. Otherwise the two bags are very similar, similar enough for the Ortlieb camera insert to fit the Vaude. I leave that insert in all the time whether I'm carrying camera stuff or not, it reduces my tendency to carry too much, stops stuff rattling around and of course adds some cushioning to valuables. The Vaude's lid pulls down easily and is a fairly snug fit, when I close it while cycling I don't bother with the press studs. The Ortlieb's map case is better than the Vaude's, (Probably better than any other) I notice it's now an expensive addition, mine came with the bag. The one included with the Vaude is OK, has always kept the rain off, but isn't submersible like the Ortlieb. Since I've been using GPS it doesn't get much use.
As mentioned above, the Ortlieb bag fits the Klick-fix bracket, but this doesn't work the other way round. I also have a small R&K bar bag so it's useful to have a common bracket. Several other makes including Carradice use the same one.
Handling - Yes any weight re-distribution is going to have an effect on handling, but don't overestimate it, even a stuffed bar bag will probably be placing less weight forward than a change in hand position - from flats to hoods on a drop bar or grips to bar ends on flats - (I'm now wondering how to set up a test to demonstrate this...) I don't always use the bag and after several months of not, the first time feels odd, but it doesn't take many miles to forget about it. The handlebar flopping when off the bike is an annoyance, but something you learn to anticipate.
I've recently changed bikes and haven't yet fitted the bag, haven't yet used it to tour, like others I dislike the aesthetics of the bracket with no bag on it. I have been looking at alternatives, the popularity of bike packing has led to a whole lot of other choices, I've been considering a top tub bag, but haven't seen one with the easy attachment of a bar bag.
EDIT - * I've noticed there's now another version of this bag, nothing like mine...
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Just to throw another choice into the mix, I have an Arkel bag. To me, the mounting system looks much more elegant, for want of a better word, than the Ortlieb. Being all aluminum (yes I know Canadians and Americans spell and pronounce it differently than everyone else in the world), it is probably stronger than the Rixen Kaul mount, however, in the real world, either will last a long, long time. The main compartment is completely waterproof by way of a liner. The outer pockets are not. There are no dividers, it's just a large empty compartment. A waterproof cover is available, at extra cost of course, to make everything waterproof.
A quick glance at the Arkel UK website, and SJS, show it to be about the same price as a higher end Ortlieb. The biggest Ortlieb bag i noticed on the SJS site was 8.5 litres. Arkel come in 7.5 or 10 litres.
As others have noted, it does make the steering heavier. If I go for a ride without it, the bike feels livelier to start, but I quickly adapt either way.
Hope this helps more than it adds to the dilemma.
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A friend of mine has Arkel panniers and handlebar bag in red color. The red fades very badly in the sun.
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A friend of mine has Arkel panniers and handlebar bag in red color. The red fades very badly in the sun.
That would have me looking down at the bag as I pedal along, smiling as the memory of past trips float back. Signs of much intended use are a big positive, sort of like a well worn in pair of faded Levi's just look more comfortable. Ortliebs don't fade - the plastic is cold german efficiency. Where's the soul?
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I have an Ortlieb Ultimate 6 compact bag on my Audax - it's narrow enough, just, to fit between the STI washing lines. On my Raven Tour I have room for a Carradice Super C. Both are mounted on R&K brackets.
I prefer the Super C as it has side pockets for bits and pieces, a good map holder, and opens away from the rider so that it is easier to get into, but it is too wide for the Audax.
I find a bar bag very convenient for keeping wallet, phone, small camera and nibbles. It's not enough weight to affect the steering, though of course the front wheel flops when I'm off the bike.
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I do not understand what you meant by STI washing lines. Did you mean how the Shimano cables come straight out the side to where you wanted to put your bar bag?
If so, that friend of mine with his faded Arkel red bag was using V brake noodles to change the direction of the cables. I cropped the photo out of a much bigger photo, so it is not a great photo, but it shows what I mean. You can also see how faded his red bar bag is.
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Yes, that is one faded red bag. I have a black one, and yellow panniers, neither of which are showing signs of fading. Glad i didn't get red.
I'll note that the Arkel also opens away from the rider, which to me looks more convenient than the Ortlieb system.
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I do not understand what you meant by STI washing lines. Did you mean how the Shimano cables come straight out the side to where you wanted to put your bar bag?
Yes, that's what I mean. I've heard about the noodle trick but can't work out how to do it with the noodles I have. I can see the principle from your picture but it is too fuzzy to show how the cable housing fits into the noodle at the 'far' end (i.e. not the lever end).
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I can't figure out why it would not fit ok using the V brake noodles.
On the first page of this thread, I posted several photos. The first photo is of my Nomad handlebar bag mounting and handlebars, I have a HubBub adapter to place my Rohloff shifter on the end of my handlebar. I did not want the cables to extend straight towards my headtube, so I also used V brake noodles for my Rohloff cables. You could refer to that photo to see what I mean. My only mistake was not buying black painted noodles.
You would need some new inner cables, so it would take some time to set it up. Or, use your current rear as your new front so you only need one new cable, but need to re-install both.
The friend of mine that is in the photo, he also installed some in-line cable adjusters so he can adjust his cable while riding. I do not recall if on that bike if he has cable adjusters on the downtube, I think he does not.
That faded Arkel bag, at the time of the photo it had done several short tours plus one cross-USA trip of 70 plus days, so it had seen a lot of sun. My black Louis Garneau bags in my photos on page one of this thread are not as black as they used to be, but are still a lot closer to black than they are to gray. Regarding the discussion of bag lid closures (snaps, magnets, etc.) my bags have a zipper. I find it easy to open with one hand but usually very difficult to close the zipper with one hand.
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which rear bags are those?
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I purchased the Ortlieb Ultimate 6 L Plus a couple of years ago and have found it a great size and completely waterproof in the most torrential of downpours.
Also, it has a couple of mesh side pockets and does open away from the rider, unlike the compact version in the picture above. It has a nifty magnetic closure system using magnets which works well. Comes with a lock and key which I have found comforting when nipping into a shop for a couple of minutes but usually I take the handlebar bag everywhere with me.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/luggage/ortlieb-ultimate-6-l-plus-bar-bag-granite-back-85-litre/
This latest Ortlieb bag is a big improvement on previous models so worth considering too.
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I've recently changed bikes and haven't yet fitted the bag, haven't yet used it to tour, like others I dislike the aesthetics of the bracket with no bag on it.
Well, having now done a short tour without it, it's going straight back on, sod the aesthetics ;)
I really missed it, I took less photos because of the faff of stopping and getting the camera out, plus missed somewhere handy for snacks. I don't know what I was thinking leaving it off...