Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: Pavel on June 10, 2017, 06:50:31 pm
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Quick question here - I am very happy so far with my alcohol stove, but am thinking of perhaps buying something like the whisperlight multi fuel stove. The reason for it would be simply for the ability to cook a lot longer without interrupting the process with re-filling every eight minutes or so.
I don't like the idea of carrying two fuel types along, especially ever since I mixed things up and took my coleman stove's fuel by mistake. That was quite the bonfire in my alcohol burner.
Is it possible then to burn alcohol in a multi-fuel stove? I know the caloric values are very different, but that is fine by me, I'm never in a rush. I don't see why it would not work, but I haven't seen alcohol advertised, leading to the mystery I hope one of you can solve for me. :)
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Is it possible then to burn alcohol in a multi-fuel stove?
In a word...no...at least to my knowledge. The issue seems to be the lower volatility of alcohol fuel failing to pressurize adequately in a multifuel stove (the opposite of your experience with white gas in the spirit stove[!]...you got very lucky on that one compared to What Could Have Been).
That said, my multifuel stoves (I have two Coleman Peak1/eXponent multifuels with different generator tubes for white gas/unleaded petrol and kerosene) might have that capability, but I don't need to test it. Better to instead toss in one of my beer-can spirit stoves and wire stands if I need a backup (and I sometimes do).
Don't forget -- and this was covered in part in a recent discussion of fuel vessels -- alcohol has different characteristics than petrol-based fuels and might not do the inside of your fuel-based stove any favors with continued use. I'm thinking in particular of the sealing o-rings.
Best,
Dan.
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. The reason for it would be simply for the ability to cook a lot longer without interrupting the process with re-filling every eight minutes or so.
Eight minutes? A full Trangia burner will burn for twice that at least.
You could convert it to external fuel feed https://youtu.be/eGsCZYFzi1s
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Thanks Dan, that makes sense. My trangia does however have a seal on it, perhaps it's silicone.
I've never actually timed it rualexander, but that guess seemed about right. I want to get more skilled with cooking on the road and am actually entertaining the thought of bringing a carbon steel frying pan along, or perhaps a small steel wok. Both require high heat and so perhaps alcohol is no longer the way for me. But for the sake of knowledge, perhaps I will do a burn test on alcohol as well as heat - soon. Would be good to know. It has always seemed a bit on the short side to me, however.
The one thing I miss on this forum is a dedicated cooking and eating, complete maybe with some recipes sub-forum. I wonder if there would be demand for that? Aside from learning how to eat better on the road, I soon hope to buy a desiccator and vacuum packer and start to prepare my ready to re-constitute meals, if I decide that I am actually as hopeless in any kitchen as I suspect I am. So much to learn.
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... for the sake of knowledge, perhaps I will do a burn test on alcohol...
Do beware: If a Trangia is repeatedly allowed to burn dry, it can ultimately result in cracks and leaks. I found this to my great dismay in testing a fleet of genuine and imitation Trangias to check time-to-boil and ultimate burn times.
The problem seemed to arise from vessel overheating in the last 30 seconds or so due to a lack of evaporative cooling; in other words, there was not enough liquid in the well to outgas and cool the upper portion of the burner to compensate for the hot flame as happens in normal operation. I used a non-contact thermometer to monitor operation and the rise in upper-level vessel temperature just before burnout was remarkable...followed by cracks appearing after repeated operation in that burn-to-empty state.
NB: It is often possible to resolder/solder shut cracks in compromised Trangias.
All the best,
Dan.
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Some older Optimus stoves (111 model) could run on alcohol, possibly some of the Primus stoves too. But needed a different jet plus had a separate sleeve that was added to reduce airflow into the combustion area.
The jet size is used to control the air to fuel ratio. The heavier fuels like kerosene have smaller jets than are used for fuels like Coleman fuel. For example, my Omnifuel has a jet that is size 28 (I have no clue what the unit is, perhaps it is hundredths of a mm?) while the Coleman fuel jet is size 37 and an even larger jet at 45 for butane.
Alcohol has a larger jet than for Coleman fuel or kerosene for those few stoves that were designed to burn all three fuels because it needed more fuel to air ratio than the other fuels. (Exception, Optimus says that the Nova does not need a jet change, they claim it works well on Coleman fuel and kerosene but that stove works poorly on kerosene in my opinion.)
Also, some plastics degrade when in contact with alcohols, so if you put alcohol in a stove that had any O rings or other parts that were not safe for alcohol, you could have a real problem. So, don't try it on a stove that was not designed for that fuel. For example in the mid 80s in Minnesota, they started adding ethanol to gasoline and within a month my pickup truck gas tank was leaking and one of my carburetor jets dissolved.
The few stoves that would run on alcohol were quite heavy, so I think you would be better off not trying to find one for bike touring. I have an Optimus 111T which can use alcohol but I do not have the alcohol parts for it, I only use coleman fuel in it. But I recently bought the kerosene jet for it, so I might dabble with that. Kerosene is much cheaper than Coleman fuel in my area.
The photos are my 111T running on Coleman fuel.
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This place is an incredible wealth of information. I take it that such a nice stove as this shown 111T is not manufactured any more? It just has an old time quality look to it.
I don't like the idea of the volatility of gas, and also white gas, but kerosene seems like a nice sort of fuel.
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This place is an incredible wealth of information. I take it that such a nice stove as this shown 111T is not manufactured any more? It just has an old time quality look to it.
I don't like the idea of the volatility of gas, and also white gas, but kerosene seems like a nice sort of fuel.
I have no idea how long ago the 111T was taken out of production. I bought mine used, I think I paid about $100 USD. It might have been former military in Scandinavia. I bought a new 111B in the early 70s, the T came along after that. I do not think the T was ever sold retail in USA, I think anyone that has one got it used from a military surplus dealer. A lot of the Ts came with an O ring pump instead of a leather pump washer, I think I paid about $20 for a leather conversion.
This whole discussion started with you proposing the International version of the Whisperlight. That stove can run on kerosene, but keep in mind that kerosene does not readily evaporate. Thus, if you get it on stove parts or on the outside of your fuel bottle, it is still there hours later. I usually have carried my fuel bottle in a bike waterbottle cage if it had kerosene in it, but coleman fuel evaporates so quickly that I carry those fuel bottles in the panniers. Some people prime their kerosene stoves with other more volatile fuels. When I have used kerosene, I usually had a bottle of coleman fuel to prime the stove. When I did my Pacific Coast tour, my touring partner brought his International Whisperlight and he primed it with kerosene.
A gallon of coleman fuel usually costs me about ... ... ... , I just checked REI and they only sell the quart (~liter) size now (Crown brand, not Coleman) and they charge $7 USD for a quart. But I can buy kerosene at the farm supply store (I have a kerosene labeled fuel can) at the dispenser for less than $5 USD per gallon. That is what tempts me to use kerosene more.
Kerosene in my stoves usually leaves a blackened bottom on my cooking pots, but I don't worry about that.
I probably use more kerosene for cleaning really dirty bike chains than I use for cooking.
I have heard that some people have very good luck mixing fuel, about one part coleman fuel and three parts kerosene, I have not tried that but I think that might make my stoves less sooty.
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Pavel, I've used MSR multi-fuel stoves since the early 1980s, and still have my original G/K as well as a 20-year-old Dragonfly.
These things burn just about anything that will burn. (I've used diesel, aviation fuel, benzene, variants of gasoline [which terrified me] kerosene, and on a "what'll it do?" sort of dare, peanut oil. I seem to remember using alcohol at some point, in Southern Africa, but that was long ago, and maybe I was jumbling up stoves, eras, etc., etc. See below, however, on gasoline with ethanol.)
All things considered, Coleman fuel/white gas seems to be the best all-around. Kerosene requires priming with some other kind of fuel, but it is stable, and it's widely available around the world. BUT it can be of extremely variable quality, and if it's dirty, it can easily clog your jet, even if you have a shaker jet like the Dragonfly, or if you're a dab hand with the tiny wire jet-poker-thingy. It's also very stinky if you get it in your clothes, if that sort of thing matters to you, or to your nearest and dearest.
Visiting & then living in Zimbabwe in the 1980s, I did find that burning gasoline with 30% ethanol corrodes rubber or neoprene O-rings, so don't go to those kind of mixtures. (It also wrecked the neoprene tip of the carbuettor needle on my Toyota Corona, a problem fixable only by a brilliant back-streets shop in Harare, which put a wee dab of stainless steel on the tip of the needle, a permanent fix for $30.)
I've found the Dragonfly to be dead reliable and very efficient--an 800 ml bottle would do me for a full 5-day canoe trip, with some left over. (That was enough for two cooked meals a day, and several cups of tea each day.) The simmer control is wonderful; it also calms down the noise of the stove. (Then again, I've always assumed that the noise of the Dragonfly, full-on, and even more the G/K, which is essentially a compact, ground-mounted blowtorch, keeps the bears away.) The only downside for me is that it's bulky and heavy, compared to the Trangia (but not to other multi-fuels I've used). OTOH, on my canoe trips where there ain't no cafés/diners and such like, my meals are much better than the basic one-pot affairs I make with my Trangia when I'm bike-touring. The latter are OK, but because I usually go touring where I can find a café at least once a day, the Trangia meals are really a backup. If I were bike-touring in remote country, I'd probably use the Dragonfly, and economize on weight and volume somewhere else in my gear.
Hope that's helpful,
Cheers, John
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One more consideration, if you are getting on an airplane (especially in USA) the airport security personnel can be very nervous about camp stoves if they can smell any fuel. It is common (according to comments on the internet) to have camp stoves confiscated by TSA (the USA airline security agency). No stove fuel of any kind can go on an airplane.
I brought a Optimus Nova to Iceland, but cleaning the fuel bottle before I got on each flight to and from with soap to the point that there was no odor was a lot of work. I found that the stove canisters that have a butane/isobutane/propane mix were readily available. If I get on an airplane with my camping gear again, I plan to just buy those fuel canisters upon arrival.
I have heard that the closer you get to France, the more likely you are to find the canisters that do not have the threaded valve that you thread your stove onto. Rest of world uses the canisters that have the threaded fitting that MSR, Snow Peak, Primus and most other stove brands work with. I saw both types of cannisters in Iceland on the free shelves at some of the campgrounds, I took a photo (attached) to show the difference. The canister on the left is unthreaded, will not work with most stoves. I think that some Primus stoves will work on both kinds of canisters. But other than that I think only Gaz makes the stoves that go on the unthreaded canisters.
If I flew to Europe, I would just bring a canister stove that threads on to the canister, and if I was close to France I would assume that I would have to buy the other kind of canister stove while I was there.
I have heard of canister stoves also being confiscated by TSA, but I am not sure if that was in a carry on or checked luggage. I had my Optimus Nova in my carry bag, TSA took it out to inspect it and they concluded that the saw tooth pattern on the pot supports were not sharp enough to be a weapon, so they let me keep my stove. After that I decided I will always put my stove in my checked baggage.
But, for bike touring where I am not getting on airplanes, I prefer liquid fuel stoves.
There are also the puncture type canisters, but I do not think a stove has been manufactured for decades that uses those. I still have a few such canisters, I bought several a couple years ago at a garage sale for very little cost because I still have an old Bluet stove that will use them.
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Those travel tips are things I would never have thought of. Now that you've mentioned it mickeg, I do recall reading something once about how if there is the smell of fuel then it can not go on the plane and neither will the post office here in the US ship it.
I spent a good bit of time yesterday looking at various sites and doing re-search on multi-fuel stoves. So far I think I'd want one that is multi-fuel and for sure one that simmers. I didn't realize that many designs don't allow easy low heat. So I've got a lot to digest and learn about.
I've had a long standing bias against canister stoves, though I don't know why. Somehow here in the US I feel that it could be difficult to find replacements at an affordable price, but I have no idea if I'm right on that score. And of course they are so easy to use that I may have nothing to fiddle with, optimise and complain about. It almost feels unmanly - like staying at the Hilton. Can't have that. :)
On top of my own desires to improve my abilities to feed myself on the road, my teen daughter has recently expressed a desire to start doing a bit of camping again. What a relief, I was worried she would turn into a completely modern person and forget the joy of outdoor adventuring. I'm pretty sure that for her, manly is not required, and so I'm going to expand my research into propane powered stoves as well.
I'm grateful for all this info.
John, despite my intentions otherwise, i too find that the Trangia has been mostly backup to restaurants and for boiling water for coffee in the mornings. That's been the case in the Summer heat and humidity which I've travelled in thus far. It's so hot that I can't even look at a plate of poorly cooked hot food. Mexican restaurants it has mostly been instead. Cheap, air-conditioned, and staffed by cooks who actually know more than how to pour boiling water onto grits or oatmeal. I even once had the heretical thought that I should just leave the stove behind. But that would be like letting go of a security blanket and long held beliefs about self-suficiency. So I'm going to go in the opposite direction here. Besides, the tour that is most likely to happen for me is the Southern Tier, or a good portion of it, and that will be in September through to about November. I hope that helps my appetite and thus my budget.
But from reading these posts by you all who are more experienced than I, I can see one trend developing. Just like with bicycles, it would seem that one stove only, is never optimal enough. The N+1 factor seems to be in play, I as grasshopper now see. :D
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The propane canisters are very heavy, propane is stored a very high pressure. The butane/isobutane/propane mix stoves that I referenced use much lighter canisters, there is not much weight of metal left when empty.
You are correct that canisters are quite expensive, I only buy them on sale and since I mostly use liquid fuel, I rarely need to buy canisters. I think it has been over eight years since I bought a canister.
If you decide to go the canister route, the canister stoves heat much slower when the canister is over half done because the fuel in the canister cools as it is used and also because of Raoult's law, which I assure you, you do not want to know anything about. BUT, canisters when nearly empty can produce a good amount of heat if you put the canister in a pan of water, only about 8 to 10 mm water depth is needed, that water keeps the fuel warmer. I have done this with my pot lid which was pretty shallow but was deep enough for adequte water depth to keep the fuel warm.
There are lots of good multi-fuel liquid fuel stoves out there. I like the Primus Omnifuel. The Omnifuel that is sold today looks quite different from mine, so I have no idea if the new ones are as good as mine is. MSR stoves also get high marks but I get nervous about a plastic pump so I chose Primus or Optimus. Optimus says that you can run the Nova on kerosene, but my Nova had very yellow flames with that fuel so I would not call the Nova a multi-fuel stove and I only use it with Coleman fuel.
On my Florida trip this past February, I brought one canister stove with one and a half canisters (one was half empty) and a liquid fuel stove. For large amounts of heat like pasta noodles, etc., we used the liquid fuel stove. But if I only wanted enough water for a cup of coffee I just fired up the canister stove to get the job done faster. Also canister stoves simmer much better as a general rule.
Good luck with your decisions. If I think of anything else, I will add that, but that is unlikely.
Attached photo is one of my pasta meals in Iceland, one stove but I moved the two pots back and forth every minute or two to keep them both warm.
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If I flew to Europe, I would just bring a canister stove that threads on to the canister...
So true, George. That's what I did: Brought a stove burner-head used ithreaded iso-butane cartridges and brought an empty Trangia burner, combining the two with a folding windscreen and my Mini-Trangia 28T cookset. Thanks to AndyBG's knowledge of a sports shop in Veliko Tarnovo, I bought one large and one small cannister of Optimus iso-butane. It wrked great and was my primary fuel. Secondarily, I found I could burn Everclear/vodka/rakia/Šljivovica/Śliwowica/Slivovitza/Schlivowitz, or Slivovitsa (homemade distilled monshine) in the Trangia well enough to get by when needed. Some mixes amounted to the heat output of a tea light, while others worked remarkably well.
I washed out the Trangia burner with rubbing alcohol before my flight to remove any trace of odor from the moonshine. No problems, but in both Paris-Orly and in Los Angeles, I saw large tables piled high with confiscated camp stoves that apparently did not pass muster and smelled of fuel.
At home (US) I rarely use cannister/cartridge stoves because of the need to pack out spent cartridges. Yes, they can be punctured for recycling later, but are still difficult to crush smaller in the field for compact transport once spent.
Best,
Dan.
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I found I could burn Everclear/vodka/rakia/Šljivovica/Śliwowica/Slivovitza/Schlivowitz, or Slivovitsa (homemade distilled monshine) in the Trangia well enough to get by when needed. Some mixes amounted to the heat output of a tea light, while others worked remarkably well.
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What a waste of a valuable resource. That is almost criminal behavior. Even if you do not partake, there are those of us that would be happy to dispose of that fuel for you in a more productive manner.
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I washed out the Trangia burner with rubbing alcohol before my flight to remove any trace of odor from the moonshine. No problems, but in both Paris-Orly and in Los Angeles, I saw large tables piled high with confiscated camp stoves that apparently did not pass muster and smelled of fuel.
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Thanks for pointing that out, I thought it was mostly a problem with TSA in USA, but if the French are also inspecting luggage that closely, that probably is universal.
I have three Optimus Nova stoves, so I chose the Nova to bring to Iceland, as if I lost a stove I would not notice the loss of a Nova that much. I also brought a canister type stove as a backup in case I lost the Nova to TSA. But since I found canisters on free shelves at a couple campgrounds, about half the fuel I used in Iceland was the butane/isobutane mix that I obtained for free from campers that left their half full canisters for others to use when they flew home.
The caution of TSA and other security personnel is overly zealous in my opinion. The human nose can smell petroleum compounds in air at a few parts per million (ppm), easily at less than 10 ppm. But the lower explosive limit of gasoline is about 1.4 percent, or about 14,000 ppm. Thus the smell test is a very poor test of actual danger. But, they are in a job where you won't get into trouble if you are too careful and too overly zealous, so the result is a lot of campers lose their stoves.
When I flew with my liquid fuel stove, I also packed my fuel bottle, my stove burner head, and the pump unit separately. My thinking was that if the inspectors saw only a pump or only a burner head, they were less likely to confiscate it. Bottles are cheap, I would not get too upset if I lost just the fuel bottle. But I was thinking if all three were packed together, that the odds of losing all three at once would be increased. The bottle, I packed it with no lid. But considering the time it took to clean it, next time I will just bring a canister stove and avoid the hassle.
While writing this, I was reminded of a website that I found (again) with a quick google search, this is worth reviewing if anyone wants to travel with a stove:
https://thesummitregister.com/flying-with-a-camping-stove/
And I wrapped my fuel bottle with this.
https://thesummitregister.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/TSA-Travel-Document-Backpacking-Stoves.pdf
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What a waste of a valuable resource. That is almost criminal behavior. Even if you do not partake, there are those of us that would be happy to dispose of that fuel for you in a more productive manner.
;D ;D ;D Ah, put it down to the sins of a non-drinker. ;)
All the best,
Dan.
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I have heard of canister stoves also being confiscated by TSA, but I am not sure if that was in a carry on or checked luggage.
Oh! One last thing...I left my partially full fuel cartridges along with other things in my Bucharest airport hotel just before I flew out, taking care to let the desk manager know there were free items to distribute as she saw fit; I gave her a list and bagged everything with a note written in English and Romanian so there could be no doubt (and so the very honest maid staff would not get into trouble). She kept my older helmet for her husband who commuted through city traffic - much better and safer than none at all. My pedals went to one of the kitchen staff who had been riding with a carriage bolt through the crank eye, the stove cartridges went to someone for their little portable barbecue at home, and the canned/packaged food and toiletries were evenly distributed.
Leaving these things ensured I would make my weight limit -- I did, by 1kg! -- to avoid overage charges on the return flight. Also, the exchange rate was such these were valued and valuable items for the hotel staff, far from trash or discards. I was delighted they could make use of them as I was loathe to discard something that might be helpful. The best form of recycling.
Best,
Dan.
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Leaving these things ensured I would make my weight limit -- I did, by 1kg!
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I was delighted they could make use of them as I was loathe to discard something that might be helpful. The best form of recycling.
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A luggage scale is the travelers best friend.
I wore my helmet onto the plane on each flight, as I did not want to risk it being damaged in my luggage. One airline employee commented that the planes were pretty safe these days.
Two people (I assume two people) left two half full bottles of extremely good whiskey on a free shelf at the campground in Reykjavik before they left. I made sure that it was put to very good use too. Would hate to see that go to waste. But it was hard work indeed to make sure that it was all properly recycled.
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A washed out Trangia bottle and burner can't be any more of a danger on a plane than all those bottles of booze in the catering trolleys, overhead lockers, and in passengers' luggage.
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I used to smoke the occasional cigar and had what's called a bullet cutter. It is a 38 caliber bullet where the casing has been separated and acts as a holder attached to a keychain, and the bullet is a silvered bullet shaped end, with a round cutter, which when closed inserts inside the brass case.
I heard that even when separated and shown to be what is pretty obviously not a real bullet - the TSA bunch take it.
What I want to know is what happens to all those expensive items? Do they hold a monthly "bargain-bin" sale? Or do they get some cigars and go camping?
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- the TSA bunch take it.
What I want to know is what happens to all those expensive items? Do they hold a monthly "bargain-bin" sale? Or do they get some cigars and go camping?
I have heard that the stuff is auctioned off in lots. Not sure if there is sorting, where you would bid on a crate of pocket knives vs a pallet of wines & spirits or if it is totally unsorted.
I am quite sure that TSA employees cannot keep any of it.
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What I want to know is what happens to all those expensive items? Do they hold a monthly "bargain-bin" sale? Or do they get some cigars and go camping?
Interesting article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/the-weird-afterlife-of-banned-tsa-items/2015/01/22/129fc192-9768-11e4-aabd-d0b93ff613d5_story.html?utm_term=.a4daa6a481a8
I have bought several Swiss Army Knifes on eBay that eventually filtered through the process. Very inexpensive, but ultimately the low price reflected the poor quality and condition of the examples. No matter; in my case, I wanted a couple of utility knives for the shop and garden...the kind you use to scrape mud out of boot lugs., etc. For USD$2 each, I couldn't complain.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi all,
I bought this one : https://www.aventurenordique.com/omnifuel-primus.html?utm_source=googleshopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt9rW_e7_2AIVqbztCh2HNQV7EAQYAyABEgJPyPD_BwE
And in France i prefer to use "essence c" or "gaz" because it's cleaner ..
On the other hand obroad, i'll use what i find .. Can you write to me a list of the different fuels, from the cleanest to the dirtiest please ?
As well, as all multifuels stove, they are noisy and i would like to find a silencer like this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf4by9LC7EA
The problem from France it's a bit expensive (50-60 euros).. does anyone know a good deal ?
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Hi all,
I bought this one : https://www.aventurenordique.com/omnifuel-primus.html?utm_source=googleshopping&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIt9rW_e7_2AIVqbztCh2HNQV7EAQYAyABEgJPyPD_BwE
And in France i prefer to use "essence c" or "gaz" because it's cleaner ..
On the other hand obroad, i'll use what i find .. Can you write to me a list of the different fuels, from the cleanest to the dirtiest please ?
As well, as all multifuels stove, they are noisy and i would like to find a silencer like this one : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf4by9LC7EA
The problem from France it's a bit expensive (50-60 euros).. does anyone know a good deal ?
I have the first generation of the Omnifuel. Basically the same as you have but some parts were re-designed.
Cleanest to dirtiest, I assume you mean from the perspective of leaving soot on your pots or on the stove.
The fuel that we call kerosene in USA is likely the dirtiest. Primus says that stove can also burn jet fuel and diesel fuel. Maybe it can burn diesel number 1 which is similar to kerosene, but diesel number 2 is a terrible fuel in that stove. I do not remember which jet fuels were closest to kerosene, but one of them is, maybe jet A? Some fuel stations (or maybe most?) that sell diesel just sell a single diesel fuel that they call diesel but do not distinguish between 1 and 2, that often is mostly diesel 2 in summer. I would avoid that.
Medium, I would say is Coleman fuel. I am referring to that by brand name, there are other comparable brands too.
Cleanest in that stove would be the butane or isobutane mixtures that come in a fuel canister. These fuels are in gas form at above freezing temperatures. But these fuels cost much more. I tried this fuel in the Omnifuel once just to see how it worked, but if I am using that fuel I carry a much lighter smaller stove that is designed for that fuel only.
I often burn a mix of Coleman fuel and kerosene, about one part Coleman and two or three parts kerosene, but I carry a small bottle of Coleman fuel and use that to preheat the generator in the stove. I use the kerosene jet for that fuel mix. I find that the mix just seems to work better than pure kerosene.
The quiet burners can be difficult to simmer with as you can get an underburn in some quiet type burners. I have some old Phoebus stoves that I have not used for decades that had quiet burners that were very susceptible to an underburn - that is where the flame is inside the stove instead of where it should be. One of my photos above showed my 111T with a quiet burner, that also occasionally has an underburn.
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Can you write to me a list of the different fuels, from the cleanest to the dirtiest please ?
Julien,
Your request sent me digging through my links on the topic. The most useful ones to answer your question are here:
http://zenstoves.net/Fuels.htm
https://thesummitregister.com/liquid-fuel-stoves-101-choosing-the-right-fuel-for-your-liquid-fuel-stove/
http://www.gooutdoors.co.uk/expert-advice/guide-to-fuel-and-gas
"Dirty" can refer to the deposits left on your pot as well as environmental implications. For example, empty cartridges must be packed out and (generally, there are exceptions) cannot be refilled else they result in trash left in pristine areas and still represent lost resources.
As a tangential but potentially useful aside...
• For ultralight cooking, I use Esbit chemical tablets in either a folding titanium pot stand/tablet holder:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002AQET2C/ref=asc_df_B002AQET2C5354189/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B002AQET2C&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167119746601&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=9642454398623081769&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033029&hvtargid=pla-306560132871 )
...or in a little cookset dedicated to tablet use:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001UERXOQ/ref=asc_df_B001UERXOQ5354189/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B001UERXOQ&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167119746601&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=10596403413877306084&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033029&hvtargid=pla-79168394486
...I also have the Bluet version, which I prefer because it incorporates a small shutter to regulate the airflow and can extend the life of the tablet fuel.
These tablet stoves all burn silently.
• For lightweight but short-term cooking needs (<1 week), I use one of a number or spirit/alcohol stoves I own, with matching pot holders and cookware. These also burn silently. I like my Mini-Trangia burner/cookset: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LN7HUC/ref=asc_df_B000LN7HUC5354189/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B000LN7HUC&linkCode=df0&hvadid=238327576703&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=273948494915117293&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033029&hvtargid=pla-392794280090 One I have can be converted between spirit burner and tablet fuels: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B001UEL76Q/ref=asc_df_B001UEL76Q5354189/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B001UEL76Q&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167119746601&hvpos=1o2&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15859745897234702761&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033029&hvtargid=pla-84153121286
I have a whole variety of stands to use with Trangia and Trangia-like spirit burners. Some incorporate windscreens. One is a cross-piece that drops onto the top and is both lightweight and remarkably stable while I use rocks to provide wind protection. Some of my spirit burners I made from drinks cans and they work well but cannot self-store fuel.
A useful link comparing tablets to alcohol spirits: https://backpackinglight.com/forums/topic/70526/
• For a hotter burn and greatest convenience (and because alcohol stoves are banned by the Forest Service in fire season in some of the areas I travel in summer), I used one of several cartridge stoves I own. I use iso-butane cartridges for a little better cold-weather performance on the mountain passes I must cross between the Valley where I love and the deserts on the other side. These burn not silently but very quietly. I have several cartridge stoves but the ones I return to most often are the cheap "orange box" (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4637.msg22737#msg22737 ) stoves from eBay that include a piezoelectric sparker. They have proven reliable and good value for me but I wish they had three pot supports instead of four (for better leveling). I use a snap-on support to give the cartridge a wider, more stable base.
• I have largely abandoned my stoves that use white gas only and are equipped with burner plates (i.e. my Optimus 8R, which also has a very small tank, no pump, and requires priming though it does have a self-cleaning orifice needle). These are very noisy, a bit like a blowtorch, and are very poor to use if you are in a stealth camp.
• For longer trips (>1 week), I take my multi-fuel stove with a full tank and -- on longer trips -- a spare 1l fuel bottle as well. I have a couple of Coleman Peak 1/eXponent [sic] Multi-fuel stoves. Here is a listing on Amazon, though the often sell for <USD$50 on eBay: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0009VC7QK/ref=asc_df_B0009VC7QK5354190/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=395033&creativeASIN=B0009VC7QK&linkCode=df0&hvadid=194838933099&hvpos=1o4&hvnetw=g&hvrand=7958120814722940247&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9033029&hvtargid=pla-313972873574 For me in my use, they have proven reliable and trouble-free and have a large fuel tank in the bottom of the one-piece design (no separate fuel bottle), a good built-in windscreen and three stable feet, one of which is adjustable to level,a reliable built-in pump, and a burner that can be set to simmer. With a change of generator tube, the stove can burn white gas/naptha, kerosene/jet fuel, or unleaded petrol (which I generally use in the Great Basin as refills with Coleman fuel/white gas/naptha can be very scarce and hard to find...only one small can in all of Cedarville California at the hardware store, none on Adel or Burns Oregon or Denio Nevada when I went through last and stopped at Bobby Putney's store there). The stove packs in two square aluminum boxes that can double as pots, but I use them for storage as they have rounded corners that won't damage my bags or contents. This stove is the heaviest empty or fueled but becomes the lightest-weight option on longer trips due to several factors: 1) Fuel capacity (large tanks so I don't generally have to carry a spare fuel bottle), 2) excellent fuel economy, and 3) greater heat density/hotter BTU output: It burns so hot it heats food quickly and can be turned off sooner than the other stoves, so less fuel is used. It is pretty quiet and uses a burner similar to the "quiet" one shown in the YouTube video linked earlier in this thread. On "simmer" it is as quiet as my cartridge stoves.
Keep in mind, my use is primarily in remote areas of the American West where I am rarely near sources of replacement fuel and so must pack my own. In Europe, it was very different and I adjusted accordingly, depending primarily on a cartridge stove and secondarily on a spirit stove (Mini-Trangia kit). I also had to make sure the stoves I brought would pass airline standards. I passed tables in Paris and Los Angeles holding many confiscated stoves and I did not want mine to be one of them.
So, to summarize: My lightest stoves are great for shorter trips but become heavier (due to extra carried fuel and lower heat output) the longer I carry/use them. My heaviest stoves become the lightest when used over longer periods. In-between, size, weight, and convenience make the selection. For day trips and overnighters, I take whatever I wish but generally gravitate to tablets, spirits (alcohol) or cartridge fuels. The less efficient stoves are the quietest, the more efficient ones are a bit noisier but nothing like the old plate burners I used in the past.
I have at times seriously considered a small forge-stove such as the Sierra/Zip stove:
http://www.zzstove.com/sierra.html
These burn wood, pine cones, and twigs found along the way and burn hot due to a small electric fan powered by a AA cell battery I could recharge with my dynohub, making me truly independent from commercial fuels. I have so far been put off by the packed size, weight, price, and most of all, the smell and soot associated with their use. In waterproof bags, it would not take long for the smell of wood smoke to permeate everything. For these reasons I've held off so far, but I can feel the desire for one taking hold again as I contemplate the next touring season. I may make one of my own using a couple of nested cans and a PC cooling fan.
I have found n+1 works as well for stoves as for bikes.
Best,
Dan.
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Thank you for your answers .. i will study this :)
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Thank you for your answers .. i will study this :)
I just looked at your profile, it says you are in France. I have never been there, but I have heard that the most common butane type of canisters in France are the ones that are not threaded. But your Omnifuel would only work on the threaded ones. On the first page of this thread I had a photo of two butane canisters, one is threaded and one is not. There are also the older puncture type canisters, but the adapter to convert those to a threaded type of stove is quite rare and possibly no longer made.
So, I think you will be using only liquid fuels in your new stove. I think you will be happiest with Coleman fuel or a similar type of fuel. There probably are You Tube videos that show how to prime a liquid fuel stove and possibly videos that show your particular stove.
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mickeg - these adapters are still available. There are two types, one for the self-sealing gas canister and one for the puncture style gas canister.
Its true that in France the un-threaded self sealing or older puncture style are readily available but not the threaded ones.
For the self-sealing gas cartridges ...
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/stove-accessories-c132/edelrid-valve-cartridge-adaptor-p454
and for the older puncture style ones ...
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/stove-accessories-c132/edelrid-puncture-cartridge-adaptor-p390
I have the first one, and it works well. Would have to be careful with the puncture style adapter case it got knocked but reports are that it works well.
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Yes it is correct, specially in France we use canister for our stoves "campingaz" since a long time ..
I bought too the first adaptor for 20 euros, it is a bit heavy, maybe a little heavier than a compact gaz stove.
However, of course you can find threaded canisters but only in specialty stores, in contrary to "campingaz" canisters, where you can buy them almost everywhere
Otherwise, i use "essence c or f " (i think you call them "white gaz" in usa..) rather than Coleman or Primus fuel because it's cheaper and they are similar about their cleanliness..
On the other hand, i don't know if "Coleman fuel" is as dangerous (explosive) than "white gaz" or less explosive ..which can be more reassuring to use.
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I often burn a mix of Coleman fuel and kerosene, about one part Coleman and two or three parts kerosene, but I carry a small bottle of Coleman fuel and use that to preheat the generator in the stove. I use the kerosene jet for that fuel mix. I find that the mix just seems to work better than pure kerosene.
It is a good idea but it requires to be organized :)
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...
and for the older puncture style ones ...
https://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/equipment-c3/stoves-c12/stove-accessories-c132/edelrid-puncture-cartridge-adaptor-p390
I have the first one, and it works well. Would have to be careful with the puncture style adapter case it got knocked but reports are that it works well.
I have the one for the puncture type canisters. WOrks quite well. In the photo I have an old Primus Powercook on the adapter, two spare canisters next to it. (Poor photo, I cropped that from another photo.) Mine is teh only one I have ever seen, bought it so long ago I was sure that they were now an antique. It does sit rather tall, but most canister type stoves do.
I have the old Bluet stove that fit on those canisters and the blue plastic stand for it, but could not find it for that trip so I brought the adapter and a different stove instead.
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Yes it is correct, specially in France we use canister for our stoves "campingaz" since a long time ..
I bought too the first adaptor for 20 euros, it is a bit heavy, maybe a little heavier than a compact gaz stove.
However, of course you can find threaded canisters but only in specialty stores, in contrary to "campingaz" canisters, where you can buy them almost everywhere
Otherwise, i use "essence c or f " (i think you call them "white gaz" in usa..) rather than Coleman or Primus fuel because it's cheaper and they are similar about their cleanliness..
On the other hand, i don't know if "Coleman fuel" is as dangerous (explosive) than "white gaz" or less explosive ..which can be more reassuring to use.
Some people use the term white gas as a synonym to Coleman fuel. The fuel that you bought probably is the same or very similar to Coleman fuel.
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We don't sell this canisters anymore in France ..
Almost canisters have valves .. so the first adaptor will be adequate.