Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: jags on February 21, 2017, 01:23:59 pm
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whats the best way of reproofing a rain jacket ,
is there a simple spray i can buy that works.
thanks
anto
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Anto, you could try Nikwax TX direct.
Bob
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cheers Bob i'll look for that so ;)
thanks
anto.
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Depends on the construction of the original jacket.
TX Direct is good for temporarily reinstating the DWR (durable water repellency) on waterproof breathable jackets like Goretex, but it only lasts for a few outings in wet weather before the jacket material starts 'wetting out' again.
The actual 'waterproofness' of the jacket is dependent on the original material, e.g. Goretex membrane, etc.
All, wash-in or spray-on products are at best a temporary performance booster.
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Ah it's nothing special just a nylon job but it fits me well enough and i like it .
i bought a storm proof jacket from corriene dennis few back ,good enough jacket keeps the rain out but has a crap collor desperate pockets and it's heavy :'(
my own jacket is a Poray 5000 agu of holland .
anto
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Careful with Nik Wax products. I washed a bright yellow Night Vision waterproof jacket and the waterproofing rubber (?) lining became unstuck and just pealed off. Made a nice wind proof jacket after that before it went to the charity shop.
Pre Gortex days though.
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Ditto what the other pedal pals say about Nikwax.
I found, on a Goretex mountain jacket, that what actually makes the thing waterproof is washing it in the washing machine and chucking it in the dryer to bring up the nap of the nylon on the outside. It's that nap that keeps the drops of water away from the weave, where it can get through.
Goretex itself is a thin layer on the inside which doesn't make it waterproof, only breathable, so the quality of the waterproofing depends on the shell.
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so should i just buy a new waterproof jacket then. :'(
anto.
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so should i just buy a new waterproof jacket then. :'(
anto.
nope, you should get a carradice poncho, you'll never go back to a rain jacket after using a duxback
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so should i just buy a new waterproof jacket then. :'(
anto.
Wash it, put it in the dryer, brush up the nap, and see.
Re Bill's suggestion of a Carradice Duxback: I'm not enamored of cycling cloaks. I have a Dutch one, which is supposed to be the best. It keeps your shoulders dry but... It's awkward in traffic and your legs get wet under it from your wheels splashing water. Also, in any kind of a side wind, it interacts lethally with traffic. Never wear it on my bike after it nearly blew me under a truck. Good for hillwalking though.
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Goretex itself is a thin layer on the inside which doesn't make it waterproof, only breathable, so the quality of the waterproofing depends on the shell.
Goretex tends to be a sandwiched laminate between an outer and inner fabric, but also sometimes a two layer with the Goretex membrane on the inside.
It is the Goretex membrane which is waterproof, and breathable.
But the condition of the outer fabric has a large effect on the breathability, if it can wet out then the garment can't breathe effectively.
Tumble drying and treatments like TX Direct help prevent wetting out and hence improve breathability.
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This forum is a terrible time sink😊 I googled the Carradice Duxback. That led me to this website that, in addition to offering a brief Duxback review also offered great insights into cycling in Malawi and skirt garters, yep, skirt garters. Enjoy.
http://www.thebikeinmylife.com/northern-malawi-not-to-be-missed-by-luke-cape/
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Andre
i love my carradice capes, all in i have 3 (4th on way), one i lent to my son in law it's a standing joke that i'll never pry it off him
I just picked up a "new with tags" super size one off ebay for the princely sum of £29 plus £3.20 post should be here sometime this week
you need to drop a couple of gears going into a headwind but i can ride into town when it's chucking it down and still be able to roll a fag as my hands are that dry, plus you don't get all sweaty
Re legs getting wet i even have a set of carradice spats :o never worn them though ;D but only because i use flat pedals they are more for cleat users, i didn't want to wreck them on my spikes
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man i'd never get away wearing a cape i'd look like a clown ;D ;D
to small and fat not a good sight.
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man i'd never get away wearing a cape i'd look like a clown ;D ;D
to small and fat not a good sight.
must admit looks aren't in a capes favour,
i always break the ice with people that look at me strangly by saying "i know i look like a tw@, but I'm a dry tw@" ;)
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I commuted and toured with a rain cape with detachable hood (and knee-length gaiters) for about 5 years.
While it did keep me remarkably dry from rain, I found some drawbacks in my own use, enough to tip the scales toward a jacket, rain pants, and shoe covers (booties):
• The cape stretched relatively tightly across my back and shoulders, and so I "sweated out" inside the cape at that point.
• I found it caused a lot of wind resistance, especially in headwinds but also in sidewinds.
• It made reaching for water bottles while underway a dodgy operation.
• I found it restricted movement of my handlebars at low speeds while negotiating tight turns at low speed (i.e. goat tracks).
Bill...do the Carradice capes address these problems, or are they still present but to a manageable degree?
I switched to a successive number of jackets, and have found them generally better, but each with their own drawbacks. I am still in search of the "perfect" jacket and have come closer with my Outdoor Research Revel jacket made of Pertex Quantum. Long-term use will tell, but short-term, it seems to be a reasonable compromise between "waterproof" and "breathable" -- thanks mostly to full-length two-way side zippers for ventilation. See: https://mountainequipment.com/product_detail.asp?id=1077&brand=Outdoor%20Research It has a hood which folds into the collar and can be worn comfortably over or under my helmet. I generally prefer a helmet cover while riding and prefer the hood folded away, but really like a hood for use in camp or while playing tourist when sightseeing on foot. A hood also adds warmth.
I can second all of Rual's comments on post-purchase waterproofing treatments and the various forms of Gore-Tex construction. Gore-Tex has not worked out so well for me longterm, thanks to the fabric eventually wetting out above the membrane once the DWR (durable waterproofing) wore off. At this point, the liquid water blocked the escape of water vapor, and I got as sweat-soaked as if the fabric had been coated with a skim of waterproof urethane rubber.
I always have a keen interest in rainwear and enjoy hearing what works for others because I'm always searching for the "next best thing". Riding 17-24 hours/day in sometimes constant downpours develops preferences very quickly!
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan
the regular sized duxback is fine for me on more upright bikes, I've bought the super size one to use with drops.
headwinds are always going to be a pain in a cape,
sidewinds i don't really have a problem with, but if i could improve sidewind performance it would be by sewing a few lead curtain weights to the bottom so that if and when the wind catches it it falls straight back down
i never really drink on the bike, i prefer to stop, i normally carry a stove and make Miles tea if i'm riding far, not a fan of water, and making tea means you get to enjoy your surroundings a bit more, well for me it does
every bike jacket i've used has ended up like being in a boil in the bag, and the rain always seems to run off and soak me privates, i don't mind being out in the cold, rain or wind but once me privates are soaked i'm going home ;)
if i could get a custom cape made about the only thing i'd alter on a duxback would be add some velcro on the outside on the shoulders and a pair of velcro straps inside so that you could roll the front up and keep it up when it stops raining rather than taking it on and off
one real benefit of the cape is when your off the bike camping, it's no problem slipping it on when going to campsite toilets,shop,bar also good for hunching over a stove if you don't have room in the tent to cook
i do wear a softshell jacket but if it rains i usually have to undo it to the waist as the cape stops virtually all the wind
if it's really cold then i'll put the cape on raining or not and just use it as a windbreak
like everyone else i thought they where bloody awful looking things but proof is in the pudding
atb Bill
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Goretex itself is a thin layer on the inside which doesn't make it waterproof, only breathable, so the quality of the waterproofing depends on the shell.
Goretex tends to be a sandwiched laminate between an outer and inner fabric, but also sometimes a two layer with the Goretex membrane on the inside.
It is the Goretex membrane which is waterproof, and breathable.
But the condition of the outer fabric has a large effect on the breathability, if it can wet out then the garment can't breathe effectively.
Tumble drying and treatments like TX Direct help prevent wetting out and hence improve breathability.
Thanks for the full explanation, Rual. A fellow I used to climb mountains with would tell newbies, "Best of all is to wear the gear and take note of how long before it wets through." I was up the highest mountain in Ireland when my Berghaus Goretex gave up the struggle and dumped the winter on my shoulders.
I must also say that the best rain jacket I ever had was a no-name sale-special in bright yellow sold for €15 by Dunne's Stores, a middle of the road department store in Ireland. I stopped wearing it only because the neck and cuffs over a period of twenty years became so blackened people were offering me a few bucks on the street, not because it was letting in water. No Goretex, no nothing, of course, and I popped ventilation holes under a flap that ran across the shoulders with a paper punch. I shoulda bought a dozen or so of those jackets for each of the fancy-smancy high-dollar name-jackets I've since bought and found unsatisfactory.
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If you have to buy a new jacket, Anto, here's one you may want to consider:
My current jacket is an Altura Nightvision, which works as a windbreak and also keeps me dry in showers, though it hasn't been tested in persistent heavy rain; it has an excellent reputation and has been in production for donkey's years. I bought the 50% more expensive one (the Evo) to get the breast pocket and the pit zips, but it turns out the pit zips are on the cheapest one as well, so I paid thirty bucks and change for one extra pocket... All the pockets are usefully deep enough and angled correctly to contain your gear. The clip-on hood is extra on either one, but I didn't bother with it because I wear a hat, thick or thin according to season, under my helmet. My pedalpal Philip has the cheaper Altura Nightvision jacket in orange, which color is not available on the premium Evo Nightvision I bought, and it is a better choice than the yellow I have, because the orange resists dirt better and, according to Julian, reds give better visibility at night. I've noticed that on gloomy winter days Philip is visible, like a beacon at sea, from a mile or more away. These jackets, which are in the sixty to hundred euro range for the two types (mine was €105 landed) are cheaply made: the angled reflective lettering on the sleeve of mine is already coming loose after 1500 or so kilometers; not good enough. Still, if you're going to buy the cheap one in orange for hacking about on busy roads, I recommend it; a spot of glue is cheap and easy to apply and none of the actual stitching has come undone, and the zips all work fine, and the jacket has a comfortable commuter cut for people sitting upright, and a decent tail for those leaning forward (long enough to catch on the bigger Brooks saddles but that's a lesser nuisance than a wet bum). Whether it will stand up to the rigours of a serious long-range multimonth tour is another matter. These jackets have a usefully bright coin cell-operated security blinky on the back, included in the price, but both Philip's and mine are lost already, so you may want to buy a couple of spares with your jacket.
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Many thanks for your kind and generous reply Bill; much appreciated.
I'll give the OR Pertex Shield jacket a thorough go and if it doesn't prove out, I'll give a Carradine rain cape a try for all the reasons you cite.
I know about "soaked privates" (!) and readily agree they are an ultimate failing of jackets alone. I'm trying a new pair of rain pants that are billed as the be-all, end-all (like everything else), so ultimate success will depend as much on them as the jacket. I hate getting as wet from sweat as I would from a drenching rainstorm...we'll see. It is supposed to rain heavily here all week, so lots of time for testing.
All the best,
Dan.
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I'm pretty sure that this has been discussed on here before, but one of my favourite shed activities is to mix up, in a wee bucket :
Three and a half parts low odour white spirit to,
One part clear silicone ( cheap as chips )
Mix and mix and mix ( warning: do Not use kitchen beater! )
Wash and dry offending item.
Then paint on to waterproof, thinly), and dry overnight. Test drive in shower indoors, then go daft waterproofing everything else that you spot. In my experience it restores the repellency of the outer surface and.....I think.....allows the goretex to breath through it, as I reckon the silicon layer is not uniform. I have managed a few mountains hillwalking and it certainly seems to work pretty well. Ultimately, goretex has a very finite life and has to be looked after extremely carefully; no stuffing of garment into rucksack or panniers if you can help it, rather hang up on a hanger when wet. Oh, and have fun, like I did, derubberizing the cake mixer if you ignored the warning.
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My favourite jacket is a Paramo. It can be reproofed no problem and is very breathable. The downside is that the tend to be heavy and a bit warm so best for cooler weather
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+1 for Paramo.
I have a Paramo Quito that I use for cycling, it isn't quite as streamlined as I'd like and is a little heavy but it is perfect from October-April. You can regulate your body temperature very effectively by using the pit zips which funnel cool air into your body. I don't wear a helmet and I find the hood really useful as for well as keeping out the rain it is great at keeping your head warm if there is a chilly wind. I also have an Velez Adventure Light Smock and an Alta ll that I use for my other passion walking. I've tried numerous brands in the past but find that Paramo is perfect for the British climate and the after sales service is excellent.
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do they sell those paramo jackets in aldi or lidl ;)
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do they sell those paramo jackets in aldi or lidl ;)
I wouldn't know about Paramo at Lidl, but I won't touch the Lidl cycling jackets again. I bought a couple at different times and they were badly thought out, without backing stiffeners in the flaps so that they always got caught in the zips and you needed two hands to operate the zip, useless for a cyclist. They went straight to the charity shop.
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I have a Paramo Quito. It works quite well for walking, it's good for short cycle rides in cool to cold weather, but even in winter if cycling all day in heavy rain I end up wet from sweat despite the venting zips. Wife has a heavier Paramo jacket she uses for walking and sometimes cycling, it works well for her but she doesn't sweat much. Paramo stuff doesn't work in the same way as Goretex and needs regular reproofing with a Nikwax product (IIRC TX direct). I also have a Paramo Bora fleece and Bora shell. This combination is supposed to be waterproof when used together, for me it works better than the Quito for cycling, especially in intermittent rain as I can remove the shell completely between showers for maximum ventilation.
The best rainwear I have found so far for long rides in cool to moderate temperatures and continuous heavy rain is a lightweight PU nylon cape I bought about 5 years ago. It's slightly shorter on the sides than my previous capes, so it catches side winds less. It had an integrated hood that I didn't like, so I cut this off and sewed in a hem which I fitted with a drawstring to close the top of the cape around my neck. I combine this with lightweight overtrousers (mine are Kamleika meant for fell-running) instead of the spats I used with my previous, more traditional capes, neoprene shoe covers, and a PU nylon helmet cover. I was wearing this combination on my very windy and rainy 50-odd km night ride last November and was surprised to arrive home reasonably dry.
The front of the cape is anchored with loops to the brake levers. I generally use the cape with drop handlebar bikes, but sometimes on bikes with other handlebars, which I find work less well with capes. The cape has a drawstring that hunches the back around the rear of the saddle, which protects the latter from rain but means care has to be taken when dismounting. This model of cape was only sold for a year or two, so I will probably try and make a copy when the PU coating fails. I used to make my own capes, they are very simple to sew and took me just over an hour to make up, though I'd take longer nowadays as I don't do much sewing.
I still have a Carradice Duxback cape that I bought several years ago, but have hardly ever used, as I found it much more cumbersome than a nylon cape. The Carradice cape also smells (I'd describe the odour as "wet dog", which I suppose makes a change from stinky cyclist) and leaves wax stains on clothing, so not an option for commuting in work attire. This wouldn't be an issue with most of my "proper" cycling gear, which generally picks up oil stains after a while. If anyone wants to try it, I'll hunt it and the associated spats out, and see if they're still usable, if I think they are OK then any taker can have them for the postage from France.
In warm weather rain, after half an hour or so I get wet from sweat whatever I do, so if the rain is heavy I just wear a lightweight Montane showerproof jacket, and, if I can be bothered, "Rain legs" - these are a sort of knee length overtrousers that have no seat and backs, they reduce the amount of rain getting at the crotch area. In warm conditions bare lower legs and Lycra shorts dry very quickly if the rain stops.
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Unfortunately you won't find Paramo in Lidl or Aldi.
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I still have a Carradice Duxback cape that I bought several years ago, but have hardly ever used, as I found it much more cumbersome than a nylon cape. The Carradice cape also smells (I'd describe the odour as "wet dog", which I suppose makes a change from stinky cyclist) and leaves wax stains on clothing, so not an option for commuting in work attire. This wouldn't be an issue with most of my "proper" cycling gear, which generally picks up oil stains after a while. If anyone wants to try it, I'll hunt it and the associated spats out, and see if they're still usable, if I think they are OK then any taker can have them for the postage from France.
if your serious :o
if you could get a price to post it to Dan, i'll stump up the postage, sure he'd like to try one
atb Bill
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I'm all ears, fellows! ;D
All the best,
Dan.
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Ultimately, goretex has a very finite life and has to be looked after extremely carefully; no stuffing of garment into rucksack or panniers if you can help it, rather hang up on a hanger when wet.
Goretex lasts for years and requires no significant care other than occasional washing and restoring the DWR outer fabric treatment.
Stuff it, roll it, whatever.
I have a 28 year old Goretex walking jacket (Berghaus Lightning), still perfectly useable, couple of small sections of seam tape have peeled off but thats about it.
Also a 12 year old Gore Bikewear cycling jacket, still fine, gets rolled up and unrolled regularly, sometimes I wish it would wear out so I could treat myself to a new one!
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if your serious :o
if you could get a price to post it to Dan, i'll stump up the postage, sure he'd like to try one
atb Bill
Just been to ferret it out - it is Carradice Duxback, looks to be still in good condition and still smells of wet dog despite being hung up in a wardrobe for several years.
BUT it has arms, so it is a cycling jacket rather than the cape I thought it was, so not the same thing as you have Bill, and therefore not what Dan was after.
On the same coathanger there is a matching zip-on hood (which I remember) AND matching overtrousers (I'd completely forgotten about them), all made out of the same waxed cotton material. I'm fairly sure there were matching spats as well, but they must be in the garage somewhere, so I'll look for them in the morning.
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mine arent that smelly, bit of a waxy smell about them but that's part n parcel of the Duxback experience ;)
when i was a lad 17/18 i bought a Belstaff Tourmaster/trialmaster my dad went mental at the price and the fact it smelt so bad, it wasn't allowed in the house i had to hang it in the shed when i got home from work,it was a really good jacket, no idea what became off it though
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BUT it has arms, so it is a cycling jacket rather than the cape I thought it was, so not the same thing as you have Bill, and therefore not what Dan was after.
True, but the thoughtful gestures are much appreciated anyway. Many thanks for keeping me in mind, Martin and Bill! :)
I'll have to pass for now, as I have a jacket and pants I need to trial in the rain remaining this week. I got some photos of me in them, but astride my old rando bike instead of the Nomad, so I'll need to retake them before posting.
Heavy snow fell on the hills around town last night and early today, so despite signs of Spring, it has yet to fully arrive.
All the best,
Dan.
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Martin's the one making the generous offer not me, he could of listed but offered it up on here as a freebie 8)
the post should be less than most sites charge in subscriptions so i'll have paid my site due's up to date ;)
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Been hunting in the garage, found the spats, plus a helmet cover and foot covers that I had also completey forgotten about.
I'm very unlikely to use all this Carradice Duxback stuff, it all seems to be OK, so I'm still willing to offer it on the forum for the price of postage.
I think its best I start a new thread in the "Bike Bits / Accessories For Sale" section, then list and photograph each item.
Size of all the items is either Large or very Large (a loose fit on me), so sorry Jags, no use to you.
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Ultimately, goretex has a very finite life and has to be looked after extremely carefully; no stuffing of garment into rucksack or panniers if you can help it, rather hang up on a hanger when wet.
Goretex lasts for years and requires no significant care other than occasional washing and restoring the DWR outer fabric treatment.
Stuff it, roll it, whatever.
You are quite right. My mistake, I meant to say 'Goretex garments.' ( The rougher the treatment, the quicker the DWR seems to break down, eventually not being possible to reactivate.)
I have a 25+ year old Berghaus cagoule that is, like your garment , still not bad, but with peeling tapes, I wouldn't trust it in a Scottish mountain winter.
Keep dry and enjoy yer auld claes!
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Ah, jeez, guys, I was hoping to find The Answer here... I was pinning my hopes on Paramo Quito (I think it was -- have to check the specs) but maybe the Holy Grail isn't to be found there, either. My problem is how to manage cool-damp-drizzly weather, which I've found leaves me sweaty & cold inside, wet outside. My MEC Derecho jacket handles serious outside precip quite well, and has good vents, but is bulky to store and doesn't work very well at all in cool-damp-drizzly weather. Would like to sort this one out before embarking on a tour of Brittany-Wessex-Ireland-Scotland, lest I develop Bad Vibes about my ancestors' neighbourhood.
Prefer to find a technical foolproof fix here, rather than adjusting my expectations...or maybe it's just a matter of finding a warm dry pub each night?
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here u go john
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/2092598742/merino-tech-20-the-minimal-and-360-hoodie?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=37&utm_content=1920
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Thanks, Anto. Worth a look-and-ponder, for sure, me being a dyed-in-the-wool merino guy ;-)
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If anyone's interested I finally got around to posting my Carradice raingear in the "Bike Bits / Accessories For Sale" section.
Available for the cost of postage from France, but I may be slow in replying at this time of year.
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I've given up on several water resistant synthetic jackets. I use them until fairly soon they start to get me wet, and then I just enjoy that soaked feeling or get rid of them. I am in a hot muggy part of the country and don't deal much with cold wet.
Then I discovered Carradice and the sheer brilliance of hundred year old technology made by a peoples who know "wet".
I'd re-proof that Jacket by going to the Carradice website and going to the "Rainwear" section. Too bad that they have stopped making the pants and Jacket. Was it a modern casualty of the "ultra-light" gram counters who love things that don't last? :(