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Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: Templogin on November 24, 2016, 10:53:47 am

Title: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on November 24, 2016, 10:53:47 am: After fighting to get out on the Thorn in some hideous weather, and being too old/fat to do the daily commute to work by bike, 17 miles each way, I decided that the time had come to supplement the eXp with an e-bike. This would at least give me some help, which could actually improve my fitness by taking on conditions that I wouldn't be able to hack unassisted. I was keen on a Brompton for the folding ability, but Brompton rules mean that their dealer network are not allowed to ship them, and the customer has to come into the shop to pick up the bike and get a safety lecture - a folding bike being somewhat close to rocket-science obviously! I am a 12 hour ferry ride from the nearest Brompton dealer so I took my £3,000 budget and two years of indecision elsewhere.

In the end I bought an ARCC converted Moulton TSR8. I have already got 3 Moultons: a TSR30, an APB 21 (Land Rover edition) and a mark 2 F-frame. I have mixed feelings about the small wheel format, fast accelerating they might be, but I spend more time trying to maintain momentum, so the large wheels of the Thorn are far more beneficial for me. The TSR frames are separable, rather than folding, so basically a real faff to take apart, consisting of making sure that the bike is in the right gear, splitting cables at the splitters, removing a pivot bolt and wresting the frame apart. It certainly has nothing on the S&S coupling that the lucky ones have on their Thorns, but the thin lattice tubed frame of the Moulton would preclude S&S fittings.

Is there anything good about this bike? Well, yes. The motor is in the front wheel, which takes the strain off the hub, but more interesting is that the electricity is delivered from Bosch batteries that are more commonly used in lawnmowers and strimmers etc. Supposedly good for 30 miles depending on so many different factors, but surprisingly excluding the alignment of the planets, I am expecting considerably less, so have bought 2 batteries to give me a more reasonable range.

The plan is to start with a fairly high assistance level and then gradually lower it, but only on days that the eXp would be unsuitable due to the conditions. Even if the e-bike only uses a third of the effort in the first place, it will improve my fitness by getting me out on the bike, and will mean that I never have to sit on the turbo trainer again - a loathsome experience at best.

The eXp will still be my touring bike. You can tour on a Moulton, I have done it, but it is unable to carry the weight that the eXp can, and camping is less comfortable without the chandeliers.

Andy
Shetland
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: bobs on November 24, 2016, 12:27:36 pm: When you see the amount of E bikes in German and Austria it's the way to go if you need assistance.

Bob
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: bobs on November 24, 2016, 12:32:27 pm: My first choice would be a Raise Muller

Delite GX rohloff
Ultimate riding pleasure in the mountains: extremely robust Rohloff 14-speed hub gear, enormous ratio range, static shifting possible, Fat MTB Tires, Shimano Deore XT disc brakes
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Danneaux on November 24, 2016, 04:16:22 pm: All congratulations, Andy, on your new fitness plan and all best wishes too.

So often, all one needs is a little boost at the start of a new fitness regimen, and your strategy seems a sound one to me.

You'll be getting out and about on the bike and there's little better than that. You still have the eXp waiting in the wings for that Someday tour.

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on November 24, 2016, 09:01:44 pm: Thanks a lot folks. I am sure that I will off touring somewhere next year on the eXp. I might even get further than Scotland!

Andy
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: energyman on November 25, 2016, 06:11:16 pm: I bought an e-bike step through, not that I need an "assistance" bike but because I didn't want to have to buy it as a "distress" purchase in the future.
6 months on I have discovered (and this was confirmed by a friend with an electric recumbent today) that all it does is help one up hills and push ones average speed up by about 3mph. It also lets me do longer distances. I still seem to get a workout. So I'm pleased with it. I do get a bit of ribbing but who cares ?
It's a great means of transport and it will keep me cycling. But I still like my RST the best !
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on November 25, 2016, 06:13:25 pm: Yes, my eXp will always be my best bike!

Ignore the ribbing, you'll be overtaking them on the hills soon enough!
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: John Saxby on November 25, 2016, 06:54:13 pm: Good on yer, Andy, the future is now. Look forward to your reports.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on November 25, 2016, 07:01:28 pm: That will have to be on another site. It's a long review, from the intial thought processes to purchase, to waiting the lead time, to delivery. Respecting that this is a Thorn site, and SJS' only mentions in my review are as suppliers of the pedals and Ergon grips, £77 part of a £3,300 sale.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Danneaux on November 25, 2016, 08:35:07 pm: Quote
That will have to be on another site. It's a long review, from the intial thought processes to purchase, to waiting the lead time, to delivery. Respecting that this is a Thorn site, and SJS' only mentions in my review are as suppliers of the pedals and Ergon grips, £77 part of a £3,300 sale.
Super, Andy, and all good on ya. Just post an offsite link and you'll be fine. ;)

All the best,

Dan.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on December 13, 2016, 02:46:01 pm: The loooong and rambling report is here. No pictures though due to iPad problems, which will be sorted this weekend

http://www.pedelecs.co.uk/forum/threads/arcc-moulton-and-the-process-of-getting-there-long.26238/

Andy
Shetland
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: jags on December 13, 2016, 04:41:19 pm: the bikes of the future is most certainly ebikes they will get faster longer battery life simple charging 8) 8)
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: leftpoole on December 14, 2016, 09:52:58 am: Hello,
I have serious Heart issues alongside other medical needs.
I would rather give up cycling than be seen on a electrical bike!!!!!
My opinion only of course, but cycling is for cycling.
John
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on December 14, 2016, 10:13:09 am: Each to their own, but I am thoroughly enjoying it and wish that I had done it earlier. I am now riding in conditions where I wouldn't normally, and it can still be as much as a work out as I want it to, the assistance cutting out at 15.8 mph on mine. I am also commuting to work, something that normally takes 4 hours return, probably beyond a reasonable commute for most 56 year olds, especially those that are my shape.

To those who suggest that it is cheating I would ask them, do you use your car to go shopping? Surely that's cheating. You could walk home carrying all those bags.

One interesting thing to note is that there appears to be very few cyclists on the road at this time of year, only two that I see regularly, and they ride everyday, seemingly no matter what. I am glad to be one of them. It's doing my health no end of good. It might even save me from a heart condition.

Andy
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: leftpoole on December 14, 2016, 10:19:08 am: Hello,
I suffer Heart failure and Spinal stenosis.
A real small sized motorcycle would be my choice.
I watched a Charity 'cycle ride' last year. 30 or more were riding electrically assisted cycles! Riding a bicycle?
Shetland has windy terrain and so I can see your point of view, but please, do not look upon it as the norm. Those batteries have contents which kill. Contents which are from the ground. Not really environmentally friendly at all.
John
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on December 14, 2016, 10:29:04 am: I am not suggesting that it is the norm. It is what suits me, what will improve my fitness and reduce my burden on health providers. I don't have a car. This bike and a trailer have replaced that. This morning there was a >40mph headwind so I took the bus.

If you should buy your motorcycle it will be fuelled by polluting stuff from the ground that kills people.

Andy
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: leftpoole on December 14, 2016, 11:05:13 am: Quote from: Templogin on December 14, 2016, 10:29:04 am
I am not suggesting that it is the norm. It is what suits me, what will improve my fitness and reduce my burden on health providers. I don't have a car. This bike and a trailer have replaced that. This morning there was a >40mph headwind so I took the bus.

If you should buy your motorcycle it will be fuelled by polluting stuff from the ground that kills people.

Andy
Ah but at least its not a compromise. Its a real moped which is what E bikes are in correct terms.
John
PS I use the Bus a great deal.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: alfie1952 on December 14, 2016, 01:25:02 pm: Hi Andy,

Well done on your purchase, and it's grand that it's getting you out and about. Also that it's not a total replacement for your cracking exp. I remember your last tour that was posted here , did you ever get your hat back ?...... Stay safe.

Alfie
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: alfie1952 on December 14, 2016, 01:27:05 pm: 😡😡 must have tried posting reply twice.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on December 14, 2016, 01:52:51 pm: No, I was just about getting over that hat, like a long lost relative, and you had to mention it ;)
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: alfie1952 on December 14, 2016, 02:34:11 pm: ::) Sorry !
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: jags on December 14, 2016, 03:10:46 pm: i lost a hat once :'(
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Bill C on February 24, 2017, 04:15:58 am: hi Andy
i tried to read about your new ebike but only got to page 5, did you buy that new smart phone in the end? you do know you can use them for lot's of other things besides just being a phone, and you could condense and rationalise all your must have gizmos into one super gizmo, lol
how you didn't rip d8veh a new one i'll never know, or did you lose it in the end? ill summon up the will power to read the rest of it later

John
i still have no idea why you are so against ebikes, i'm not ready for one yet but when i am i'm going to pick Andre's brain and convert one of the thorns, tbh if it means i can keep up with the little old ladies i sometimes see whizzing through town i'll be well chuffed
as for you'd rather use the bus than have a bit of electrical assistance, your bus services must be a lot better than here
every time i have used the bus i end up sat next to 3 types of people the drunk/drug addict, the stinking of B.O fat bloke in jogging bottoms and usually some type of crazy bint screaming into her phone a running commentary of what stop we are at

also you say you'd ride a moped but not an ebike, a moped precludes you from using cycle trails or shared cycle/pedestrian paths, why would you be happy on a chicken chaser and not an ebike at least the ebike is a bike and you can cycle on it, mopeds can't be pedaled i know i've had a casal 50, a gilera 50, and a honda ss50, they met the law in as much as you could propel yourself by pedals but you couldn't actually get more than a few yards, last thing you'd want with a dodgy ticker is trying to pedal a moped

btw i know its a couple of month old thread but i ain't been about so am catching up
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Andre Jute on February 24, 2017, 05:17:05 am: I don't know how I missed this thread...

Congratulations, Andy. I agree about the health benefits; most of my doctors are cyclists. Like you, I don't own a car, and haven't since 1992 when I decided people who want to see me can come to me.

I would say, Bill, that if you make a conversion on a Thorn bike, you can get the best of both worlds, as readymade e-bikes of good quality can be a bit stodgy (at present) while you can build something quite exciting if you start with the right frame and motor kit. (But note the implications of the word kit. Most failed DIY projects fall down at the non-availability of some ten quid control component.) I've done it twice now and both results have been eminently satisfactory because I plotted the easiest and safest path rather than the cheapest.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on February 24, 2017, 06:29:55 am: Hi Folks

I have had a cough since October and had to give up cycling just before Xmas as it became so bad that there was no way I could cycle if breathing was required at the same time! I am still at work but feeling miserable due to no cycling.

Still no smartphone! There are many reasons why one wouldn't suit me. I must admit that I worry about single points of failure, but if I had mentioned that in the post on the other forum I am sure that I would have been burnt at the stake!

It's funny what people get away with saying to me on the net. When I say anything there always seems to be someone who wants to do me down. In the latest incident there was a post on a forum here in Shetland from a woman bemoaning how bad women have it in life. I wrote a post in reply saying that it's not all fun being a bloke, retiring later, dying earlier, in industrial accidents the death rate is 95% men, men take on the worst jobs and die on the front lines of war. Women aren't troubled by these things.

A week later I had my usual catch-up meeting with my line manager who told me that there had been an unofficial complaint made against me, due to my post. Bearing in mind that when I wrote that post I was in my own time, on my own computer, and it had absolutely nothing to do with the job I do, I also never mentioned who my employer is. Needless to say I have booked a meeting with HR. It's amazing how free speech is being limited.

We nearly bought a replacement for the car, but in the end I just couldn't justify the never ending costs, so it's public transport for me at the moment, until the lungs get back to normal.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Andre Jute on February 24, 2017, 07:28:33 am: Man, I hope you're back on the bike soon. It would be just too awful to have to go back to the stress of a car in traffic.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Danneaux on February 24, 2017, 07:52:21 am: Quote
I have had a cough since October and had to give up cycling just before Xmas as it became so bad that there was no way I could cycle if breathing was required at the same time! I am still at work but feeling miserable due to no cycling.
Oh! I am sorry you're having to deal with this, Andy.

That's a long time for a severe cough -- so wearing! :(

All best wishes you'll soon be feeling better.

The idea of an e-bike/conversion for you sounds like a grand way to still get outside and enjoy cycling, albeit in a slightly different manner. I remember zipping along on a bike path in Austria with a full touring load when I was surprised to find an elderly lady pacing me at 28kmh. I did a double-take and she engaged me in conversation (a bit breathless on my end). Turned out she was 84, loved her e-Bike, and heartily recommended I get one "if you want to keep up"...before moving briskly past me. I have no idea if her model was "legal" or not, but it sure had speed in reserve, unlike my legs.

I think you're in for some enjoyable times (trolling solely human-powered cylclists, if nothing else! ;D )

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: rualexander on February 24, 2017, 08:10:08 am: Quote from: Andre Jute on February 24, 2017, 07:28:33 am
Man, I hope you're back on the bike soon. It would be just too awful to have to go back to the stress of a car in traffic.

In Shetland?!
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: alfie1952 on February 24, 2017, 10:21:42 am: Andy,
Hope you're feeling better soon and out and about on your bike again. Stay safe and try to keep smiling. :)
Regards Alfie
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: jags on February 24, 2017, 11:04:10 am: Andy that sounds terrible hope your better very soon :'( :'(

anto
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Andre Jute on February 24, 2017, 11:17:51 am: Quote from: rualexander on February 24, 2017, 08:10:08 am
Quote from: Andre Jute on February 24, 2017, 07:28:33 am
Man, I hope you're back on the bike soon. It would be just too awful to have to go back to the stress of a car in traffic.

In Shetland?!

Eh? In the narrow lanes where I ride, and I presume in Shetland too, a single tractor is a traffic hazard that may cause you to retrace your ride back uphill, and two tractors constitute a conundrum that can take an afternoon to sort out.

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/andre_jute_steepest_hill_in_west_cork%3F_2_800pxw_2017.jpg)

Mind you, at least this ditch is full of leaves, so it'll be a soft landing. On too many of the lanes the ditches, both sides, are full of icy, smelly, slurry runoff.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: martinf on February 24, 2017, 11:58:06 am: Big hub gears (Rohloff, Shimano), look rather like hub motors.

So quite often other cyclists I pass assume I am riding an e-bike.

Especially if they have a lightweight road bike.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on February 24, 2017, 12:09:41 pm: Thanks a lot for all the warm wishes guys. It is much appreciated. One of my colleagues is similarly afflicted and we make a good impression of a TB ward once we get going.

Yes, we have a similar road system here, although much of it is 2 lane there is plenty of single track, but with plenty of passing places, and the drivers are very accommodating to each other, rather than the cut and thrust of the south of England, especially in Sussex and Surrey. Being a bit of a comic, maybe in my own mind only, when visitors come here I usually take them to one of the villages that has a cafe, if we meet a couple of cars coming the other way at the same time I will complain that the roads are turning into motorways up here with all this traffic. It makes me smile every time! I am not sure that it does anything for them though.

There are few fertile areas here, so slurry run-off isn't an issue. The quality of the land is mostly poor and sheep graze in most areas, but in small flocks as there is not a great deal to sustain them, so extra feed is usually required.

What we do have is a rough chipped area at the side of most of the two-lane roads, which can be convenient to pull off onto in an emergency. I was once hit by a strong gust as I was riding the motorbike I then owned. It wasn't a day for riding really but I was being heroic (aka stupid). Had there had been a ditch instead there may have been a much worse outcome than the brown trouser moment as I bounced across the chippings at 60mph towards the horizontal road sign, supported by two vertical posts. Lesson learnt.

I worried that an eBike might be a one way trip, but when I was riding it my fitness was being massively improved as a I was using it in weather where I would have considered going out on a "normally aspirated" bike.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Pavel on February 24, 2017, 12:59:31 pm: I can see the virtues of the e-bikes, though it is not my choice. I consider them hybrid vehicles - not bicycles, but what difference does that make. The point is to enjoy life in whichever way one can find and getting outside in the fresh air, seeing the sights and nature, well that is fantastic. And as most of us are tinkerers, and e-bikes are a sort of new frontier, I'm sort of surprised that more of us have not ventured down that route (and easier UP that route) This seems like a natural fit for Danneaux, he'd have the optimum setup in no time, and probably with air conditioning! :D

what makes me think is a bit of an impediment to the e-bike, and the electric car as well, is that horrible lack of any kind of infrastructure for charging thins up. (I realize peddling charges, but plugging in and doing so easily would be a huge benefit imho) Here where I live there used to be experimental charging stations along hwy 95 for electric cars. They took them out after a few years, several years ago, because drivers complained that they were free to e-car motorists! What a nutty world of government we have. All hot air and lies.

But while e-bikes are not my preferred way, I think mostly because I like to ramble about without any fixed itinerary, making the e-bikes an ill fit, I think they are great. I'd love to see more write-ups about them and look forward to when your iPad is past it's problems to see some photos.

I solved a similar dilemma, born of time and health problems in a different way. I bought a Kawasaki KLR adventure motorcycle. After surviving four cancers over a span of 28 years, I don't yet know if I have a heart condition, but it all seems to point that way. The cures have their down sides ( a long list) and now after struggling to start up a body I no longer recognize, and making horribly little progress, it was to give up on cycling and camping, get an e-bike or a motorcycle. Now I'm still planning grand routes to take using my favorite way of travel; the bicycle. Too many inspiring stories here and too many of you making amazing trips; to give up on those dreams just yet. But I've been trying to get fit since March, and can so far only walk for about five blocks before feeling out of air and like I've been struck by an instant flu. it's time to look at alternate adventuring options, just in case.

I've recently joined the Adventure-Cycling Associating and am about to buy their southern tier and underground railroad route maps and get back to being in the scenery and fresh air. I will probably travel on my KLR on my next trip. Perhaps all of them, from now on? Is that heresy? It feels wrong, but what the heck. :D I'll be that guy going really slowly and handing out cold gatorade to any cyclists, at the top of tall summits, that I see.

Come to think of it, as I type this in response to Templogin's post, perhaps I should investigate e-bikes better. any out there yet, which can do 40-50 miles and solar charge? Hmmm.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Templogin on February 24, 2017, 02:31:40 pm: Mmm, I often think of solar, but anything I can carry easily on a bike is likely to be underpowered in charging terms. I carry two batteries but am only getting about 20 miles out of them altogether. If i was less fat and more fit, requiring less assistance then I would get more distance. Bear in mind that my batteries are small. Solar opportunites are reduced by living at 60 degrees north. Technology continues to make huge strides though, and whilst I wouldn't consider my ebike for touring (as I camp in places without power being available), it's great for a 17 mile commute,

I used to have a Kawasaki KLR650 many years ago and you to ride to see my then girlfriend every other weekend. It was a 550 mile round trip to York, and a real strain on the butt by the end of each leg.

I am waiting in at the moment expecting a delivery of an ebike for my partner. She got fed up of being left behind by me on my whizzy ARCC Moulton.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Danneaux on February 24, 2017, 06:52:47 pm: Quote
what makes me think is a bit of an impediment to the e-bike, and the electric car as well, is that horrible lack of any kind of infrastructure for charging thins up. (I realize peddling charges, but plugging in and doing so easily would be a huge benefit imho)
Austria is there now, especially along the Danube, where there are convenient public e-bike charging stations at reasonable intervals as well as at cafes and guesthouses.

Remarkable! I saw similar facilities for charging USB-powered gadgets, along with free wifi. They've really embraced bicycle tourism there and this includes wholehearted support of e-bikes.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: bobs on February 24, 2017, 07:02:05 pm: Dan, it's the same all over Austria and Germany with a lot of accommodation also providing this service. They obviously see a market for it and the benefit of getting people outdoors. To say it's not really cycling is a bit silly really.

Bob
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Danneaux on February 24, 2017, 07:35:13 pm: Agreed, Bob.

I spoke with a couple from Sweden. The gentleman was very tall at 198cm and a very strong rider with a great deal of touring experience. His partner was a woman only 152cm, a weak/inexperienced rider and in somewhat poor health. For ages, they had wanted to tour together, and her new e-bike made it possible at last. He did have to change his style of touring to one that was largely lodging-based for recharging purposes, but overall it was working well for them. He carried a spare charged pile for her bike to allow greater flexibility in case they failed to make a charging point or simply wanted to camp in their tent on occasion. They were making a good distance each day. Her bike supplied on-demand (pedelec) rather than constant assistance, so on the flatter stretches or at a slower pace, she could economize her battery use.

Her bike was the quietest electrified bike I have seen to date -- virtually silent and very non-intrusive for those riding nearby.

They were a sweet-natured and pleasant couple; our chat was a highlight that day and I left feeling really heartened they were able to fulfill a mutual dream and travel together at last, despite wide variance in ability and physical fitness.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Bill C on February 24, 2017, 08:26:50 pm: Andy or any ebike user for that matter

how much drag/resistance is there if the power is off, is the bike still rideable without power?

Andy
how do you find the carry freedom?
i have a Bob yak, but have looked at the carry freedom with looong arm conversion, i have 2 15foot kayaks, started using them again last summer after years of not going out,
at the moment i have a converted bike dog trailer that i lash one of the kayaks to and walk the mile to the river
i have been on the look out for a decent bike kayak trailer since then, i have seen the carry freedom looong arm and it looks ideal, the beach and open sea is only about a 4/5 mile ride from my house so instead of just paddling up and down the river with the tide i could actually get out into ocean and get some fishing in and finally get to use the fish finder,
the only other trailers i have seen are all in America but they will cost a fortune by the time i buy one then pay import and the post office their slice

btw i have also seen some small 2 and 4 stroke outboards for kayaks spose thats cheating but i'll call it petrol assisted paddling 8)

for some reason firefox/android won't let me copy links but search youtube for "motorized kayak self made outriggers" by howard kang
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: RST Scout on February 24, 2017, 11:38:40 pm: When I get too old/infirmed to cycle I intend to add a motor to my RST. At the moment the weight of e-bikes put me off but at some point I will have to 'bite the bullet' if I want to keep cycling. I have been looking at Shimano's STEP system. Something to keep in mind and they will only improve. I admire anyone who loves their cycling and is prepared to carry on no matter what. You are all an inspiration.

Janet
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: jags on February 25, 2017, 12:08:25 am: i reckon the ebikes are going to slim down a lot in the coming years.
just look at the bikes some of the pro's were caught cheating on fantastic piece of engineering (can't believe i spelled that right) :o
anyway once they sort out the battery ,i can't wait to get my mitts on one .
sure i might as well dream here as in bed.which i'm now heading too .

anto.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Andre Jute on February 25, 2017, 03:09:02 am: Quote from: Bill C on February 24, 2017, 08:26:50 pm
how much drag/resistance is there if the power is off, is the bike still rideable without power?

On my electrified bike everything except the frame is hefty longlife gear. (The frame is specially drawn Columbus tubing and lugs and, believe it or not, is lighter than my workalike Gazelle and Trek ali frames.) So the central motor I have now didn't feel all that much heavier than the hefty bottom bracket it replaced, and front hub motor I had was not at perceptibly heavier than the SON dynohub it replaced. Neither item causes undue drag and, if you're using the bike solely as a pedal bike, you'll soon get used to their extra weight, same as when you add an extra bottle of water for touring away from home. That sort of level, soon accustomed to. Theoretically there should be some mechanical drag but I've never noticed it.

The battery is an entirely different story. It's heavy. Add the battery to the bike and you'll feel its weight on your arms as you tilt the bike to get on it. You'll also feel it as you break the bike away from standstill on the pedals unless you gear way down, which I don't normally do, gearing down only three stops from my normal do-everything gear of 11. Once you're up to speed, you don't feel it much. So you learn to break the bike away from standstill on the throttle and to let go once you can pedal comfortably, which in my case is about walking pace. My normal riding pace on the flat was only about 15kph (my pedal pals include ladies and gentlemen of a certain age, out for a social ride, and we talk as we ride), and it is the same with motor and battery, so the distance between walking pace and flat riding pace, through which the bike must be accelerated, is not huge. However, I live in very hilly terrain, and ride the lanes in the hilliest parts of it, because they're the safest (my town lies on main roads that are lethal, and that's putting it politely) but still all my rides average 15kph, precisely because of the motor. Besides the breakaway of a heavy, and often loaded (even on day trips I carry painting gear), bike, I use the motor to fill in near the tops of hills rather than gear down and slog it out with my blood pressure and heart rate rising dangerously. In fact, I regulate my effort by my heart rate and cut in the motor not at x speed but at x heart rate. I ride with my physician and he is impressed at how well I manage to regulate it, and perhaps more importantly, how fast my heart rate falls again at the top of the hill.

So, while either a hub or a central motor on well-equipped touring or commuter bike doesn't make enough mechanical drag to be noticeable, and will be either not at all or only slightly noticeable for weight, the battery simply by its weight is definitely a drag factor. It should be said that I always buy the highest capacity battery available for my motors, and weight is directly related to capacity (you can for instance power these motors with low capacity but lightweight Bosch rechargeable drill batteries -- quite a fad in America where weight weenies and offroad speed freaks intersect).

Neither the central nor the hub motor offers any appreciable aero drag at speed to over 50kph downhill, but then I didn't expect them to, as I had relevant experience from the time when I set my own personal (truck assisted) ton-up record on a newly resurfaced downhill lane -- on a fully equipped Gazelle Toulouse (a Dutch vakansiefiets, which is a sort of extra-luxurious fast tourer or commuter, see photo at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGgazelletoulouse.html ) on which the only alterations I made for the speed trial was to inflate the tyres to the permitted max, raise the seat, and drop the bars and swivel them almost vertical on the toollessly adjustable stem to give me a flat back as if on drops, and loosen the front disc caliper so it didn't cause me a high speed face plant. No perceptible aero drag from the dynohub, which is pretty much the same size as a decent front motor from 8FUN/Bafang; if you were to push me, I'd say the chain cover made more aero drag than a bare chain or certainly a Hebie Chainglider would have, and certainly more than the dynohub which is after all mostly behind the tyre.

All of that said, drag, either weight or aero, is the wrong question while you're cycling in civilization (and you won't be riding an ebike away from electrical points, so civilization is the only reference). There may be some weight drag but it is irrelevant unless you ride stupidly out of your battery's range because as long as you have battery current the motor compensates for the battery's weight, and aero drag is negligible. Your questions would be better aimed at battery weight, distance achievable, battery life-cycles (the battery is the most expensive and heaviest item on your bike, and the one with the shortest life), and battery placing for best roadholding and handling. Also, you should regard not only the battery but the motor as consumable items (I burned out a quality hub motor at about 3500km -- maybe it was underspecified for the job, though it seemed plenty strong enough in use), though hub motors either bare or wired into rims are cheap (it's controls and the battery that make the full kit expensive) and central motors will eventually be cheaper than now.

I have a really good 14.5Ah battery, which I charge after every ride, even just to the shops and back, and my rides are generally 10-15 miles. The battery, used only to fill in, has never once refused to deliver all the current I asked of it. It generally arrives home still about three quarters full with all the green lights still lit (this isn't a tip about buying a smaller battery -- the rate of delivery of current, C, is related to the battery size and state of charge, so you should as a first principle buy the biggest battery available, regardless of your needs). I reckon my battery would carry me on the flat at 15kph without pedaling for 40-50km, but I haven't tried it, among other reasons because the only piece of flat road here is dangerous and short so that i would have to cross it many times to knock up 50km, and anyway it isn't an electric motorbike but a pedal bike with electrical assistance for the steepest hills. At a commuting speed of say 25kph the drain would be disproportionately greater.

BTW, the problems that happen with batteries (unexplained sudden total discharge, anyone? -- it happens to my iPhone and iPad sometimes, though mercifully never yet to my bike battery) means that you must have a transmission with a low range suited to hauling a dead battery home from wherever you are. That means that you can't do without the Rohloff box, even though at first glance it may seem you don't need as big a range with a motor as with leg power only. Furthermore, while a front hub motor will probably be safe with a Nexus or Alfine hub gearbox, a central motor will sooner or later rip apart anything but a Rohloff or (perhaps, I haven't tried it) a NuVinci HGB. Or with a front hub motor you can safely choose derailleurs. With a rear hub motor, a topology now past its sell-by date, you're forced to have derailleurs. In all cases the gear spread should be considered in view of the sort of elevations over which you may be lugging home a dead battery. Never happened to me, and when it does I'll call my driver to come get me and the bike and the dead battery, but then I'm hardly ever more than an hour or two from home, which can't be said for probably the majority of adventurous cyclists here.
Title: Re: The e-Bike Time of Life
Post by: Bill C on February 25, 2017, 01:34:57 pm: cheers Andre
i could handle the extra bit of weight as i have to do all my shopping by bike so some excess weight is normal to me, i didn't know if the motor caused a lot of drag, i'd want an ebike that just helps when i need it, and still leaves the bike as useable/viable when just pedalling
like you I live in a hilly area , i can ride up most but some are killers,
i'm in no hurry to go out and buy/try one and reckon the longer i can leave it the better they will get
but i know when i'm older living here is going to be a strain on my cycling unless i just limit myself to easy rides

i have no intentions of going back to a car after all these years,as the government/police/councils just use motorists as a cash cow these days

perhaps i should keep my eyes out for a Pashley Picador, nice size rear basket for a battery and some shopping,
atleast if my balance go's i won't fall off >:( ........ an E-picador, Oi John (leftpool) whats your take on that for an idea? ;)