Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: hedwards on November 13, 2016, 05:19:52 pm
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I've just swopped my threaded sprocket for the new splined type. I'm now running a 42 x 19 which gives me a very low bottom gear range. Whilst on a SE Asian tour I will want to swop the sprocket for one which will give me a higher range.
Has any one done this? What tools will be needed? Is it a risky manoeuvre as spares would be difficult if things went wrong?
Any advice would be useful.
Thanks
Harvey
[Harvey, I changed the title of your post to make it more searchable in the future and to avoid apparent duplication with other, related threads. As the new Rohloff splined sprockets gain a user base, questions are beginning to arise about their fitment and compatibility. Posts such as yours -- and the answers that follow -- will likely become a valuable resource for others who follow. Welcome to the Thorn Cycling Forum. Best, Dan.]
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I've not done this yet on my new splined sprocket but in theory you just remove the lock ring. I'd attack with a small screwdriver but I'm sure someone will be here with better advice. I'd guess in moving to a smaller sprocket you will have to adjust your chain length, probably by shortening it by a link.
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I have never done it and have threaded sprocket.
But I have switched back and forth between two chainring sizes, a 44 for use around home and a 36 for touring and for mountain biking with my Nomad. I set up the chain so that it works with one quick link on the 36T chainring, but if I switch to the 44T I have to add four chain links (three regular links and a second quick link). And I have to adjust the eccentric to readjust the chain tension. It is not a change that I want to make often, but I can probably add or remove the links and re-adjust the eccentric in less than 20 minutes.
In my case, I added 8 teeth to the chainring to upsize from 36 to 44, that meant adding four chain links. If you remove only a few teeth from 19 down to 17 or something like that you might be able to do it without adjusting the number of chain links.
I have not changed the splined cog on a Rohloff, but I have changed them over the years on a Sturmey Archer 3 speed hub. If it is a similar chore, it is not a big deal. But if the circlip goes flying, you do not want it in your eye and you do not want it to get lost.
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Still running the old Sturmey Archer 3 and 5 speeds on some family bikes.
If the Rohloff splined sprocket works like the Sturmey Archer circlip and sprocket, prise the retaining circlip off the hub while the wheel is still in the dropouts.
Then the circlip can't fly away.
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Murphy's Law would seem to require carrying a spare circlip or two.
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Murphy's Law would seem to require carrying a spare circlip or two.
If it was me, I would not bother with spares. The idea to leave it in the frame is a really good idea. If indoors, they are easier to find.
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It's the circlip that worries me in removing the sprocket. It appears that they are not sold separately, only with the carrier.
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The 'circlip' would be a necessary spare part on a long tour with the splined setup. Harvey, the same sprocket removal tool Rohloff Part 8501 is required to remove the threaded sprocket and fit the spliced sprocket (and big spanner and chain whip of course).
I am running a Thorn Raven Tour with 38 tooth Thorn chainring, and a 16 tooth standard screw on Rohloff sprocket.
I welcome this post as I have recently been looking at the feasibility of retrofitting the new splined sprocket at some point in the future. I still have a spare standard 16 tooth sprocket so it may be a while!
My main question about changing to a splined sprocket setup is that I understand that the chain line will change from 54mm to 58mm.
Does this mean I would need to swap my Shimano 68mm x 110mm bottom bracket for a longer bottom bracket or can the new chain line be accommodated using only spacers and chainring bolts?
This is an important question for me as I am considering purchasing a new bottom bracket as my current Shimano UN-52 is getting on a bit.
What do you think folks?
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StuntPilot Rohloff have brought out an "S" (S= slimmer I guess) version of their splined carrier which gives same, or very similar, chainline as the screw on sprockets.
I have the S version ready to swap over but haven't got around to it as yet, I need to make a few changes at the same time.
Martinf, on this thread
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11609.60
posted this link to the S version.
https://www.rosebikes.com/article/rohloff-s-adapter-for-splined-carrier/aid:2668410
I got my S version from SJS but had to ring them as it wasn't listed on their site.
When I get around I'll make some notes on how easy it is to swap the sprocket using the circlip on the splined carrier.
Edited: If people are interested I could measure my new S carrier's circlip? I would think that they are fiarly standard and could be bought from ebay/amazon etc.
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Harvey, if getting a spare circlip is a problem, and if you need or feel more comfortable having one, maybe it's worth revisiting the original idea of changing sprockets.
Your current 42 x 19 setup gives you a range of 16.0 gear-inches (low) to 57.5 (11th) to 84.3 (high), assuming a 26' wheel/tire measurement. Do you need a higher range -- will you be lightly loaded? riding on mostly flat terrain? relying on tailwinds? etc.
People have different needs and preferences, and I don't know yours. I manage just fine with a 36 x 17, which gives me these comparable gear-inch ratios: 15.4 - 55.1 - 80.8 These work very well for me -- I use the lowest gear only on steep hills when the bike is loaded. On flat or gentle terrain, I use the upper register almost exclusively, loaded or unloaded.
Offering this suggestion as a way of simplifying things -- hope it's useful.
Cheers, John
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Thanks. I suppose I will not really know until tested in the field. I intend to go to Northern Thailand and Laos where I have been before and know there are hills from hell!, but if I then go south the terrain becomes very flat. That would be when I would like to change the sprocket.
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Thanks Shipwright! I did not know that a 's' version existed. Thanks! That would solve the chain line issue, if the issue did exist with my current setup.
I agree John, I would not probably want to swap the sprocket on tour until it came to the time when I needed to reverse it due to wear on a long tour. Though I could see an easy swap ability being useful when moving between extremes of terrain, such as going from a mountainous region to a flat region on the same tour.
But then where is the fun in reversing the sprocket with the spliced version! Part of the fun was hunting for a chain whip and big wrench, meeting the locals who are intrigued with what you are up to, setting it all up then struggling, sweating and cursing until you got the sprocket to budge!
The 'How to change a Rohloff splined sprocket' video would be much less entertaining!
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The 'circlip' would be a necessary spare part on a long tour with the splined setup. ...
If you really think that the circlip is a necessary spare, it likely is a standard size that a well stocked machine parts store should have for sale. I am in USA, I do not know if our typical hardware store would have them, but I have seen some stores that have that kind of stuff in stock.
Does anyone have any measurements of it?
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My main question about changing to a splined sprocket setup is that I understand that the chain line will change from 54mm to 58mm.
Does this mean I would need to swap my Shimano 68mm x 110mm bottom bracket for a longer bottom bracket or can the new chain line be accommodated using only spacers and chainring bolts?
This is an important question for me as I am considering purchasing a new bottom bracket as my current Shimano UN-52 is getting on a bit.
What do you think folks?
I have an intentional chainline error of about 5mm. I did not want my Q Factor (width between pedals) to be much bigger on my Rohloff bike than on my derailleur bikes, thus I bought a spindle that was 10mm shorter than it should have been for a perfect chainline. I bought a spare thread on sprocket (before the thin splined version came out) because I did not want to have a chainline that is off by 9mm, but 5mm is not a problem in my opinion.
But if your chainline is spot on at this time, a few mm of chainline error is not really a problem. That said, the slim version might be best for you if you have a concern.
When you consider that the typical derailleur bike is almost always in operation with a chainline error of over 5mm, that suggests to me that a small error is not a problem.
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I've just measured the circlip and it's 36mm internally with a wire thickness of 2.5mm so externally 41mm.
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I've just measured the circlip and it's 36mm internally with a wire thickness of 2.5mm so externally 41mm.
Similar to the standard size for Sturmey Archer, many SRAM and Shimano Nexus 7, 8 and Alfine 8 hubs - these all use more or less the same circlip with an internal diameter of about 35 mm (if slightly undersized it will spring open enough to fit on the Rohloff). So it should be possible to find a spare in countries that have a tradition of using hub gears.
But I reckon you are unlikely ever to need a spare so long as you take care when removing. I don't recall ever losing or breaking one in over 40 years of using and maintaining hub gears with this type of sprocket retainer. Rohloff would be even more unlikely, as less need to dismantle the hub for servicing.
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I think you need to measure the diameter of the groove in the carrier, not the ID of the circlip. The second link below suggests that a 36mm circlip has a 33mm ID.
This one looks a bit thinner. This is the USA Ebay site, shipping cost to UK on the UK Ebay site might be better.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pack-of-2-1400-36-External-Circlip-36mm-ID-36mm-Thickness-1-75mm-/201713701721
From China can be cheaper, but shipping can take a month. In USA, no customs duty for this but I do not know if that is an issue for UK delivery.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pcs-304-Stainless-Steel-External-Circlip-Retaining-Shaft-Snap-Rings-36mm-/311399714011
You might also try an automotive parts store.
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I'll measure and report back if helps anyone. Good time to do it's not been fitted and is therefore nice and clean! ;)
I was thinking about trying to replace the standard round wire type circlip with the type that has little lugs and holes in. That way you could use circlip pliers to remove and refit. The fly in the ointment seems to be the thickness as the lugged type appear to made of plate and are thinner, ranging from 1.5mm to 1.75mm. If the round wire type is a snug fit 2.5 then my plan might not work.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1400-36-External-Circlip-36mm-ID-36mm-Thickness-1-75mm-/201310120470?hash=item2edf04aa16:g:wxYAAOSwEeFVCAvc
Plier type might not so be so good when touring as its another tool to carry but non touring purposes it might be better/easier.
I always managed with my alfine and SA circlips but was never really tested with them by the roadside only in workshop conditions.
Edit: have measured and the inside of the splined carrier 36.6mm. Also noted that the width of the groove that the circlip sits in is 2mm. This makes me think that the lugged/pliers style might work for me.
Good luck and I hope my blathering has been helpful.
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I did not realize it is a round wire circlip.
I checked a 60s(?) vintage Sturmey Archer hub, the circlip while still on the hub is 38.5mm outside diameter. Maybe it would fit?
If it was me, I would not bother with a spare circlip anyway. I would just be very careful to not lose it. But I will be sticking with the thread on type for years to come, so I am not going to try to find any circlips.
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https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-spare-snapring-splined-sprocket-system-8539/
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Dave, can I ask your opinion please on using one of these, flat style circlips instead of the round wire type ?
Thanks
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From memory I think the round wire is important as it pushes against the sprocket to eliminate any sideways movement between the sprocket and rub ring.
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Dave, brilliant ta very much. I had thought as much as I noticed one side of the splined carrier was chamfered to accept the "round" of the wire and assumed the other side would press against the sprocket but didn't have a sprocket to hand to check.
Thanks
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So, when someone said you could not buy the circlip separate from the carrier, SJS will have them available.
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So, when someone said you could not buy the circlip separate from the carrier, SJS will have them available.
Yes I saw the post and checked with Rohloff and they sell them so we should have stock in a couple of weeks.
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For those interested I swapped my splined carrier to the short (S) version this afternoon and therefore had to remove the circlip and sprocket. It was very easy and only required a small screwdriver. It looks Rohloff have desinged the splined carrier so there's a recess, on the outer lip, to allow you get a blade under the circlip. The circlip didn't appear to be under a lot tension as I managed to put it back on with just my fingers, something I could never manage on my Alfine which IMO required octopuss like dexterity.
In summary this is not something I'd worry about whilst on the road.
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Thanks for this, Ship.
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Hi All!
Here are some closeup photos I took showing the Rohloff "Slim" sprocket carrier, snap-ring and cog that arrived in the mail from SJS Cycles yesterday. The slim version preserves a 55mm chainline.
There is a little bit of lash when the sprocket is mounted on the carrier alone, but it is not apparent when the snap ring is fitted. The snap-ring went on easily with only light to moderate finger pressure and the photos show the little recess where you can insert a flat-bladed screwdriver to prise it off again. There is a gap in the snap-ring itself, so I took care to position the end of the ring over the recess for easier removal in the future. The sprocket carrier came with one snap-ring, the cog none. I ordered two more snap-rings to take with me on tour so I would have them on hand in case I dropped one in tall grass, roadside, at night in the rain with hail starting to fall. There, that should cover most contingencies. I think an emergency substitute could be field crafted from fence wire or perhaps a suitable coathanger -- possibly a cable tie or windings of twine. Really, it doesn't look too hard to bodge an emergency substitute, but I'm glad to carry spares.
Hebie Chainglider owners can see the different outer profile on the sprocket carrier, where the Chainglider would ride on a screw-on sprocket.
Best,
Dan.
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...A couple more photos I took showing the cog mounted on the carrier with the snap-ring in place.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks for posting. I have a spare threaded one, won't need a splined one for many years but it is useful to see what the new ones are like.
No holes drilled in the sprocket to lighten it, that must add at least two grams, maybe even three grams of weight.
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No holes drilled in the sprocket to lighten it, that must add at least two grams, maybe even three grams of weight.
Yes, but removes a hard-to-clean area for clean-bike fanatics like me. ??? It seems dust and dirt mixed with oil and caught in the lightening holes. :P
Compensations. I'll have to live with the greater weight. ::) ;D
All the best,
Dan.
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I don't run a Rohloff, Dan, but if I did, those photos and comments would be very helpful. Thanks from us all, hubbers and multicoggers alike.
Lewis
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You also have the extra weight of the extra 2 clips to consider also. ;D
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You also have the extra weight of the extra 2 clips to consider also.
Agony! All that atop my usual 26.5l of water on desert crossings!
:o ;) ;D
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Thanks from us all, hubbers and multicoggers alike.
Thanks for the kind words, Lewis. :) Hopefully helpful to those contemplating the changeover from threaded to splined.
All the best,
Dan.
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G'day Dan,
My splined carrier and 18T cog arrived this morning via DHL nice and promptly from my German order to here in Aussie.
Locally there is one but shop it turns out who has the Rohloff tool, but unfortunately having had a prior disagreement, I'm going to have to open the wallet, wipe off the cobwebs once the bats have exited and pull the notes with blinking queens blinded by sunlight after so long etc. etc and order the Rohloff sprocket tool for the one off job of replacing my cog.
I wish I'd fore-saw the lack of sprocket tool and ordered it when I did the 18T and carrier.
I'm hopeful combined with my 34T chainring gear, the 18T will lessen the ache in my ageing knees.
When I'd rung said LBS, not initially realising I'd dealt with them before, there was talk of possible seal replacement needing doing as well as talk of them able to provide oils etc etc.
It was all the talk of their add ons which made me look a little harder at who I was potentially dealing with and determining that I'd rather fork out for the tool, even for a once only job (damn it).
I've only done an oil change a month ago and feel no rush to jump into another one having done little riding of late.
If I buy the removal tool myself and remove the cog, which there is u-tube videos showing how, should I expect oil to start leaking everywhere?
Is seal replacement likely to be needed for this job? Do you know which ones and can point me in the direction of some part numbers?
I figured if it was the torque of the sprocket or new carrier that held the seal in place, draining the oil prior to attempting the job might help the state of my garage floor, but I've as yet found little mention online about needing seal replacement.
I did spot varies seals on the sjscycles site but am a little in the dark about which ones might succumb to my ministrations of original 16T removal.
I've had no seal leaks to date.
I thought from my initial Rohloff site perusal all I'd require was s bit of grease for the carrier threads and sprocket channels.
What was the methodology of your replacement and was there any oil issues?
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No seals etc required, crack old sprocket off with a chain whip while holding the driver still with the tool, quick wipe of the seal with a lint free cloth soaked in eco friendly degreaser, then spin splined carrier on with the sprocket already clipped on, before setting off stamp on the pedal to tighten the sprocket fully.
One side note with 99% of setups its far better to retrofit the slim rather than the standard carrier.
Dave
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Dave beat me to it, Rif; all agreed. :)
All the beat,
Dan.
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Have to say the splined sprocket is a breeze to flip over, so much easier than the threaded type. It will be really easy to use both sides. I have the standard carrier which seems ok, although the slim version would have been perfect had it been available last summer.
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No seals etc required, crack old sprocket off with a chain whip while holding the driver still with the tool, quick wipe of the seal with a lint free cloth soaked in eco friendly degreaser, then spin splined carrier on with the sprocket already clipped on, before setting off stamp on the pedal to tighten the sprocket fully.
One side note with 99% of setups its far better to retrofit the slim rather than the standard carrier.
Dave
The likelihood of the current seals remaining fine is good news indeed Dave - thank you.
This makes me feel more confident about tackling the job myself although its a shame about having to buy the tool for a once off.
Too, the fortnights wait it takes to receive anything hereabouts.
Short of hearing its unlikely to work on my setup, its a little late in the day for me to be considering the slimmer carrier, having already had the standard one arrive this morning.
An already expensive postage, coupled with added insurance to return it to Germany in hope of a swap would also add 2 to three weeks to sorting this out in that the company would want one to arrive before sending the other creating a wait in the order of a month to five or even 6 weeks depending how things went.
Granted the post to Germany at this time of year would be unlikely to be held up due to weather but still..... a month is a month longer than I wanted to be rolling with lowered gearing.
Also what exactly does the slimmer carrier do to the chainline?
I'd sort of figured moving my Surly Ogre's front Thorn reversible front chainring on Thorn cranks, from the middle position to the outer would eat up most of the chainline difference?
I don't have a link currently for the Thorn cranks but the outer ring position are the same "spider"(?) 110 bcd as they currently enjoy though in the inner middle position.
Whoops I do: https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/cranks/140-thorn-11074-pcd-triple-solo-alloy-crankset-silver/?geoc=AU
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC05607_zpsbcc21fc6.jpg)
(http://i1198.photobucket.com/albums/aa450/rif_raf13/DSC05606_zps9d8ff99d.jpg)
What might some of the issues your aware of be? I'm open minded enough to make an order I guess as I can take a loss and attempt to sell locally the original one.
Its the time factor that gives me pause as I was hoping to get away for a trip on my bike next week due to have a few weeks up my sleeve.
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rifraf, pm me with your address and I will loan you my rohloff sprocket tool.
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rifraf, pm me with your address and I will loan you my rohloff sprocket tool.
Very kind offer Geocycle.
Apologies for whingeing and expressing my frustrations of the day.
Had you been local I'd have wandered around with an offering of a couple of 6 packs of your favourite poison or similar and wheel in hand.
No I'll not take the Michael and take advantage of your generous offer leaving your tool at the mercy of the security of the postal services vagaries, despite it being ever so tempting.
Rather I'll shut up and bite the bullet and make an order tonight to who ever I can judge to have the swiftest shipping with a tracking number.
I'm sure I'll be able to get some money back offering to sell it via my local forum or eBay or something when the jobs complete.
I really appreciate your offer and trust - thank you.
I've had a negative experience with the only close shop to sport a tool which has seen me vow never to return or I'd have had the job done today.
I'd foolishly not anticipated how few Rohloffs were around and thus LBS workshops catering to them.
Hopefully Dave might come back and tell me more about the slim carrier to help me decide on further emptying the purse on one or anything else I might not have thought of.
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What about contacting Rohloff Australia?
PureSports Pty Ltd
6 Cheshire Grove
ELANORA Qld 4221
Mobile: +61 (0)452-339289
Tel.: +61 (0)7-55339289
www.rohloff-au.com (http://www.rohloff-au.com)
Also this bike shop in Melbourne ...
https://stkildacycles.com.au/parts-accessories/rohloff-inc-hubs-spare-parts.html
Perhaps you could borrow a Rohloff sprocket tool and exchange for the slim carrier if you need/want to?
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I've got the slim sprocket carrier installed on my Nomad. I just took off the old sprocket, greased the carrier, and screwed it in. Been using it now for around two weeks without issue. My Rohloff is just a couple of months old and even then the old sprocket was a nightmare to remove. I did consider the non-slim carrier but didn't like the idea of my chain being closer to the seat stay due to the increased chain line. Probably would not have been an issue but I also didn't want to buy a different bottom bracket either to accommodate the new chain line.
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I'll bite the bullet and make an order tonight to who ever I can judge to have the swiftest shipping with a tracking number
Rif, I can send you my sprocket tool from The Great White North, and you can return it to my son in SE Queensland (Gold Coast), if that's easier. Wd take about 2 weeks from Canada to wherever you are in Oz.
(Jaysus, Mary an' Joseph, it's rainin' sprocket tools! Who'd'a thunk it?)
Cheers, John
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Thanks for all the kind offers folks.
Its a matter of timing that I've failed to account for.
I've some time up my sleeve for a few weeks tour that would be more productively spent than sitting by my front window awaiting an order.
I'm going to stick with my plan to do a tour whilst I've the few weeks off.
I'll make do with my current original 16T threaded cog for the trip.
I thought I'd planned it well enough to have upgraded to a lower gear inch by ordering the carrier and 18T splined cog (sprocket).
I hadn't allowed for a dearth of Rohloff removal tools locally.
If I put leaving off for any longer winter will be too well set in with its accompanying rains to go with the cold.
I'm a fair weather rider.
I'll make do and order the tool upon my return rather than putting off leaving any later in the season.
Thank you all, I do appreciate the suggestions and offers of loans. I humbly decline.
For those wondering about those Queensland and Victoria outlets mentioned, for my location, purchase and shipping from the EU or UK can be generally faster and more cost effective in this situation.
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Hi Rif!
Could you get the gearing you need in the short term (for your upcoming tour) simply by swapping to a smaller chainring and shortening the chain?
No need to mess with the sprocket, and a quicker path to the lower gearing you desire. All could be made right in the fullness of time after your return.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi Rif!
Could you get the gearing you need in the short term (for your upcoming tour) simply by swapping to a smaller chainring and shortening the chain?
No need to mess with the sprocket, and a quicker path to the lower gearing you desire. All could be made right in the fullness of time after your return.
All the best,
Dan.
Hi Dan,
I sent you a PM earlier but when I now look in my sent box, its not there.
Can you check your inbox for me?
I don't need a reply to it yet but would like to know if I need to rewrite it.
Disappointing if its gone into the ether as it was longwinded.
Regarding the chainring, I'm already maxed out on minimum teeth, sporting a 34T currently having quickly removed the original 38T that came with the cranks pictured above.
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I sent you a PM earlier but when I now look in my sent box, its not there.
Can you check your inbox for me?
Hi Rif!
Sure, good news is it's there! No need to re-write. I have it in my PM queue as well as a relayed copy via email (my belt-and-braces approach). Cue the collective <whew!> for I've had the same experience. :o ??? :-\ :'( I have now taken to writing my PMs in Notepad or a similar text editor so I can just cut-and-paste. Saves time recreating in case there's a hiccup in the machine. It seems to be a connection issue with between local ISPs and the server. My browsers do not save a copy in their cache when the connection is reset. Disappointing.
I'm swamped at the moment but will answer soonest, probably in a shorter fashion than I'd prefer due to time. Nothing bad, just a lot of Real Life™ matters to deal with and they're all coming at once. The latest? I seem to have become a Committee of One tapped to fix a policy matter in the little coastal village where I have my tiny vacation cabin. I volunteered by standing still while everyone else took a step back. ;)
I have a large PM and email volume so I'll reply soon's I can, but it may be several days. If you don't hear back, please send me a tickler. :)
All the best,
Dan.
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Thats a relief Dan.
Drop it down to low priority as its merely something I've been meaning to get around to asking you.
Its for a long term plan and even then only conceptual at this stage.
I simply got a fright when it appeared to have vanished without trace from my end - lol.
Right tis nearly 2am here so I'm off to the land of nod.
Cheers