Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: in4 on May 01, 2016, 08:40:31 am
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I was doing a little reading about rohloff hubs and flange support rings ( as one does on a Saturday evening!) and wondered if rohloff owners here had chosen to use them, particuarly when heading off into rough country with a heavy load.
http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/flange-support-rings/index.html
I picked up on the subject over at http://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=104463&start=30
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I have never heard of these before. If I was aware of them when I bought my hub in late winter/early spring 2013, I might have bought them. But, now I do not know if I would bother if I had a reason to lace up a new rim. Since my hub does not appear to have needed them yet, maybe I have nothing to worry about?
I do not have a spoke tension gauge. After I built up my wheel, I had a friend that volunteers time at a bicycle charity use a spoke tension gauge on it so I could get the spoke tension right. I do not know if checking spoke tension is a critical factor or not, but I thought it made sense to do since I could get the tension checked without cost.
I expect to load up my Nomad for touring, but I probably will put less stress on it than the typical tandem user. I also have a 36 spoke wheel, not 32, that might help a small amount.
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Jobst Brandt was of the opinion that the tension matters a great deal, and Sheldon Brown liked the tension to be even. The makers of my exceptionally tight and longlasting wheels provide a printout of the tension on every spoke with every wheel.
I also received a private letter from a German engineer who said that a) having 28in rims rather than 26in makes a difference because the spokes are a useful fraction longer, and b) that Sapim's Poleax nipples make a big difference in enabling wheels with all spokes tensioned to within 1% of every other spoke, without sacrificing any other desirable characteristic like roundness and hub centering both vertically and horizontally.
He also said, though, that possibly the biggest factor was that my exceptionally good wheels started on hefty Exal rims custom-drilled to take a Rohloff gearbox and so were born with the straightest spoke run possible.
On the subject of more spokes than 32 or 36 for Rohloff wheels, it is possible to drill the flanges for any application in a pattern Chalo Colina developed. He's a huge guy, whose dream was to get his weight down to 350 pounds, so he thought a 48 spoke wheel would be about right. Being a Boeing toolmaker (i.e. a boss machinist) no doubt helped. You can get the same job done by Aaron Goss of Aaron's Bike Repair in Seattle for $40 who had Chalo consulting the first time around according to his notes at http://www.rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.shtml Also some chatter on The Lazy Rando at https://thelazyrando.wordpress.com/2010/03/17/48-hole-rohloff/#comments.
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I always thought that area looked a bit thin/weak.
Why not just make the hub a slightly larger diameter and we all have a stronger hub.
An extra 2mm per side (4mm diameter) surely wouldn't matter to the overall weight.
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I'm reawakening this old thread because I was looking at the hub support rings on the Rohloff website https://www.rohloff.de/en/products/speedhub/flange-support-rings/index.html the other day and found that Rohloff have increased the size of the flange on the hub-cap side.
Also: https://www.rohloff.de/fileadmin/rohloffde/produkte/speedhub/zubehoer/8523_8524_Flanschring_Rings_for_Flange_de_en_nl_fr_2015.pdf
It's interesting that they have done this but I wonder why it's only on the hub-cap side.
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I was unaware that they increased the flange diameter on one side, you would only do that if there was a reason to do that. Perhaps that side was a bit weaker with the drilling and taping for the eight or nine hub cap screws?
Since the optional reinforcing rings are also made from Aluminum instead of steel, I can't imagine that they add that much extra strength to the flange.
I had a heavy load on my Nomad in Iceland, it worked just fine. But I did have one confusing issue. In the photo you can see one spoke has a big dent in it. Not sure how that happened, but I am guessing that the front wheel threw a rock into the rear wheel while I was riding and that rock landed between the frame and spoke. WHile that sounds like an unlikely occurrence, that is the only thing that I could think of to cause that on that particular day. The last 5 or 10 miles I had noticed the rear brake rubbing in one spot on the wheel but it was late and I wanted to keep going that day. The spoke was quite loose when I took the photo the next day. I suspected that the spoke or nipple threads had given out, but fortunately I could true up the wheel with a spoke wrench and did not have to replace the spoke and nipple. I used straight gauge spokes in my wheel because I could not find a source of the double butted spokes I wanted to use. If I was ever going to have a flange failure, I would have expected it to happen at that time considering the force necessary to bend that spoke that way.
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Yes mickeg,
Looking at the damage on that spoke it's unusual, as you say; it must have taken quite some force to kink it like that. Did you renew the spoke after the tour or has it stayed true since.
Perhaps they did find that side to be weaker, that would seem to be the obvious reason, though from the few photos of flange damage available on the net, the damage seems to be fairly evenly distributed between the two flanges.
I'm sure Rohloff have their reasons, I was just curious after noticing the change.
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Yes mickeg,
Looking at the damage on that spoke it's unusual, as you say; it must have taken quite some force to kink it like that. Did you renew the spoke after the tour or has it stayed true since.
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I have just left it the way it is. Upon tightening the spoke to true the wheel, the spoke mostly straightened out. I have not really worried about it since.
I carry my spare spokes in the seatpost, so spares are always with the bike. If I had a failure near home I would just ride it home but if I was on a trip somewhere I would have the spokes handy if needed.
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Bizarre. One of my rear spokes looked like that too. I've also been to Iceland, maybe that's the problem! I rode with it with that kink it in for months and it didn't seem to develop into anything more.
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Does anyone know of a link which shows a red Rohloff Speedhub with the flange support rings fitted, I ask as the rings only seem to come in black.
Whilst I was looking online for an example of a red hub with rings I came across this: http://freshwrx.co/rohloff-speedhub-500-14/rohloff-speedhub-500-14-the-main-drawback-to-this-technology-is-that-it-expensive-by-way-we-have-a-super-nice-gearing-calculator-will-help-you-figure-out-cena/ I wonder how long the hub flanges will last on this stangely laced wheel.
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Hi,
Just to add my 2p.
- Aftermarket slip fit rings only come in black.
- The factory/service centre fit rings come in 2 colours Black and Silver, service centres like us can fit either they are heated up in a controlled way and they dropped onto a cold hub which causes them to shrink.
- All new hubs come with black rings regardless of colour, silver is only an option on silver hubs and has to be specified by the OEM.
- Its NEVER worth un-building a wheel to fit them, simply fit them the next time you rebuild the wheel as each time they are re-built your weakening the flange (another reason to go CSS if using rim brakes)
- There is no evidence they add to the strength of the flange, all they do is enable you to finish your tour or get to a service centre as they ring will hold the broken pieces to together.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
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- Its NEVER worth un-building a wheel to fit them, simply fit them the next time you rebuild the wheel ...
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I added the rings to my Rohloff yesterday. I decided to write up a post on that and wrote my first draft for a post yesterday. Did that before Dave posted his comment above that says adding the rings is never worth doing if you are not already rebuilding the wheel.
Maybe it was not necessary, but my confidence level is higher now that I have done it. And I am again thinking of taking my Nomad off to far off places.
If months from now you landed at this thread from a search, in addition to this thread there was also some discussion of the rings at this other thread:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13162.0
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I built up my Nomad Rohloff wheel in late winter/early spring 2013 before the rings were available. I bought the 36 spoke version hub for additional wheel strength.
Initially I did not plan to add the rings, but when I learned that Rohloff increased the flange diameter on one side after my hub was built AND later learned that Rohloff now includes the rings with new hubs, that is two independent actions that they have taken to strengthen the hub flange. There must be a reason that they did that, which made me a bit nervous before I wander off to far off places again. And then when I saw that they say the rings "... must be fitted to all older SPEEDHUB units when the wheel is next re-laced ..." a few months ago, I decided to add the rings the next time I changed the rear tire.
I suspected that I could add the rings easy enough by just loosening and removing the nipples from the nine spokes on each side (eight if you have a 32 spoke wheel), sliding the reinforcing ring on, and reassembling the wheel. Plan was to do that one side at a time. That meant truing up the wheel twice, once after each ring was added. That way my spoke tension is reasonably close to the way it was before, because the other 27 spokes were not adjusted in the process. It was quick, took very little time.
I assumed the rings would fit on tightly, possibly needing some force considering that I still had nine spokes under tension on the hub shell flange. But sliding the rings on was easier than expected. I did the drive side first, it fell into place quite easily. The non-drive side, I had to push the ring onto the shell flange, but finger pressure was adequate, no tools were needed to push the ring onto the flange.
I also had a damaged spoke from a trip several years ago, you can see that in a photo above in this thread, also replaced that and the nipple while I had the rim tape off.
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First photo, I have already put the ring on the drive side, have removed the nipples from nine spokes on the non-drive side and am holding those spokes up out of the way so that I can drop the ring onto the non-drive side. The wheel is sitting on a plastic bucket as my work stand, the bucket supports the wheel flat from the spokes.
Second photo, photo was taken immediately after I pressed the ring into place on the non-drive side but the nine spokes without nipples are still loose without being attached to the rim yet, thus the spokes are not yet oriented correctly.
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I learned that Rohloff increased the flange diameter on one side after my hub was built
They have now reverted to equal sized flanges after evidence showed it didn't reduce the number of failures.
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Feel free to ask any other questions.
If I could take you up on that,:
My hub was rebuilt with all the spokes threaded through the flange in the same way, with all the spoke heads on the outside and 1x, which brings up several questions.
Firstly and purely out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this, was it experimental, did it have the desired effect and do you still do it? I've had no issues with it, thanks.
Then am I right in thinking this pattern should not be changed and that would exclude the addition on these rings*?
Lastly, I was thinking of having the rim changed, a vanity project as it has a heavier one than necessary** and I'm tempted to try tubeless, in light of your comment about it weakening the flange, am I better off forgetting that?
* I'm not overly fussed about having them, I've twice broken flanges and neither time has it resulted in any drama.
** It has a Sputnik from the days before it was converted to disc.
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Hi,
Just to add my 2p.
- Aftermarket slip fit rings only come in black.
- The factory/service centre fit rings come in 2 colours Black and Silver, service centres like us can fit either they are heated up in a controlled way and they dropped onto a cold hub which causes them to shrink.
- All new hubs come with black rings regardless of colour, silver is only an option on silver hubs and has to be specified by the OEM.
- Its NEVER worth un-building a wheel to fit them, simply fit them the next time you rebuild the wheel as each time they are re-built your weakening the flange (another reason to go CSS if using rim brakes)
- There is no evidence they add to the strength of the flange, all they do is enable you to finish your tour or get to a service centre as they ring will hold the broken pieces to together.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
Dave,
Thanks for the info on the aftermarket slip fit and factory/service centre thermal expansion shrink fit rings and the difference between the two. Do you have any pics of a red hub with rings fitted that you could post?
Feel free to ask any other questions.
My hub was rebuilt with all the spokes threaded through the flange in the same way, with all the spoke heads on the outside and 1x, which brings up several questions.
PH,
I've never seen - or at least, never noticed - a wheel laced like that. Is that wheel the 700C from your Mercury? From what you say, in your case all the spoke heads are on the outside, so though I don't know the reason for lacing in that fashion it is at least symmetrical side to side. What makes the wheel which I linked to even stranger, to me at least, is the fact that on one flange all the spoke heads are on the inside and on the other flange they're all on the outside. I'd also be interested to hear the reasoning behind it.
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If I could take you up on that,:
My hub was rebuilt with all the spokes threaded through the flange in the same way, with all the spoke heads on the outside and 1x, which brings up several questions.
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I can't speak for Dave, but if that hub was on a wheel that was smaller than 26 inch, that might be why it is one cross instead of two.
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My hub was rebuilt with all the spokes threaded through the flange in the same way, with all the spoke heads on the outside and 1x, which brings up several questions.
Firstly and purely out of curiosity, what's the reasoning behind this, was it experimental, did it have the desired effect and do you still do it? I've had no issues with it, thanks.
Then am I right in thinking this pattern should not be changed and that would exclude the addition on these rings*?
Lastly, I was thinking of having the rim changed, a vanity project as it has a heavier one than necessary** and I'm tempted to try tubeless, in light of your comment about it weakening the flange, am I better off forgetting that?
Yes we still do this now, it builds a strong wheel with low stress on the flange, if you look below its actually the path the spokes would follow if it was a smaller hub and 3x.
(http://i64.tinypic.com/34jdpuf.jpg)
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Thanks for that, the diagram makes sense of it, though the spokes all the same way is still unexplained.
I recall reading, but can't remember where, that Rohloff thought 1X was the best option but didn't think wheel builders would do it and recommending 2X was a better way to make sure they weren't built 3X.
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..., the diagram makes sense of it, though the spokes all the same way is still unexplained.
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I can't speak for whomever did the work, but they might have been thinking that putting all spokes with the heads on the outside would mean that it had the same effect of putting the flanges a few mm closer to each other, making the spoke angle closer to perpendicular at the rim?
I never saw any hubs laced with all the heads on the outside until a few years ago when I occasionally saw a front wheel laced in a radial (zero cross) pattern.
The slip on rings that I added to my hub slide on from the outside, there is a thin flange on each ring that keeps the rings from going too far. The rings are held in place by having spokes on the outside (heads on the inside of the hub shell flange) that hold them onto the hub shell. If all spokes were laced with the heads on the outside, there would be nothing holding the rings on, thus they could fall off.
I am clueless on why the red shells are different than the non-red ones.
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Hi,
Just to add my 2p.
- Aftermarket slip fit rings only come in black.
- The factory/service centre fit rings come in 2 colours Black and Silver, service centres like us can fit either they are heated up in a controlled way and they dropped onto a cold hub which causes them to shrink.
- All new hubs come with black rings regardless of colour, silver is only an option on silver hubs and has to be specified by the OEM.
- Its NEVER worth un-building a wheel to fit them, simply fit them the next time you rebuild the wheel as each time they are re-built your weakening the flange (another reason to go CSS if using rim brakes)
- There is no evidence they add to the strength of the flange, all they do is enable you to finish your tour or get to a service centre as they ring will hold the broken pieces to together.
Feel free to ask any other questions.
Hello Dave,
Could you tell me, please. How much would it add to the cost off a wheel build to have the factory/service centre thermal expansion/shrink fit rings added to my Rohloff during a re-rim/build?
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Hi.
What type of material is used for these flange support rings?
Maybe would be better to make such rings with cnc machine with titanium or with other high quality material, that the inner diameter will fit tightly and perfect too.
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Hello Dave,
Could you tell me, please. How much would it add to the cost off a wheel build to have the factory/service centre thermal expansion/shrink fit rings added to my Rohloff during a re-rim/build?
£9.99 each ring.
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I assumed the rings would fit on tightly, possibly needing some force considering that I still had nine spokes under tension on the hub shell flange. But sliding the rings on was easier than expected. I did the drive side first, it fell into place quite easily. The non-drive side, I had to push the ring onto the shell flange, but finger pressure was adequate, no tools were needed to push the ring onto the flange.
I'm resurrecting this because today I fitted the support rings onto a hub which is going to be rebuilt with a 584 rim instead of a 622 rim. I was a little worried by the comments suggesting that the rings needed to be heated but my experience was the same as that reported by @mickeg: The rings can be pushed into place using fingers and thumbs and the flange on each ring stops them from going too far. I did the non-drive side first and the ring fitted into place easily but snugly. I then did the drive side and that was a much tighter fit and I'm wondering if the hub flange is slightly enlarged through use (but only about 6,500 miles of use and no heavy loads). The attached photo shows some wear on the flange adjacent to the flange holes on the drive side. I didn't notice anything similar on the other flange.
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I was a little worried by the comments suggesting that the rings needed to be heated
I don't know why you'd have thought that, back a few posts on this thread:
- Aftermarket slip fit rings only come in black.
- The factory/service centre fit rings come in 2 colours Black and Silver, service centres like us can fit either they are heated up in a controlled way and they dropped onto a cold hub which causes them to shrink.
How are you re-building? I'm not sure whether it's better to try and get a close match, or stay away from previous wear so the spoke is against fresh metal. I did the latter on my Airnimal 24" wheel, even though it puts the oil screw in an awkward place. Either way, I'd be tempted to smooth the burrs before starting.
What's the project?
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The wheel rebuild is for my Elan Rohloff (which is now an Elan Ti Rohloff for greater comfort). The wheels from the donor bike used 622 rims but I've decided after over 3k miles that slightly smaller wheels would be beneficial. The two main reasons are (i) with optimum saddle to pedal spacing I struggle to get more than a toe on the ground when stopped and (ii) there will be more space between saddle and rear mudguard for baggage.