Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: mattwhitford on February 22, 2007, 01:42:10 pm
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Every now and then - maybe three times since my (10 months) clocking up 1,800 miles so far - my Rohloff speed hub 'slips'. It's like the chain has come off or something. It did it once when I specifically remember changing gear (accelerating through traffic), and another time whilst not changing gear. Not sure about the third time. I'd say the pedals do a 1/3 revolution before the mechanism re-engaging.
Anyone else experienced this?
Slightly concerned as soon I am off to cycle the Spitti valley, Sach pass and Manali-Leh highway for a coupla months.
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I experienced this 'slip' effect 3 times in the first 330 miles. It felt just like a new chain jumping on an old worn derailleur block. I also found changing up into 5, 10 and 12 could be a bit notchy - somewhat like going from 7 to 8.
I contacted SJSC for advice and they recommended 4 things to try :-
• checking/adjusting the play in the gear cables
• changing the oil, with 2 flushes
• adding mileage to run the hub in more
• change gear slower and with less pressure.
I have checked the cable adjustment, tried them tighter and slacker and think they are now set at optimum. I have changed the oil with just the one flush and intend to do another oil change at around 650 miles. I am cycling as much as the weather, increasing years and recurrent flu is allowing to increase the mileage. I am changing gear with a slower action and little pressure on the pedal, although I didn't think I was at all rough/hurried before.
I have had 1 more 'slip' since the oil change, but the change has got smoother into 5 and 12, into 10 can still be a bit notchy.
So I am seeing an improvement from following the SJSC advice. Given your mileage I can only suggest an oil change with maybe 2 flushes to clean out any particles which may be causing your 'slips'.
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Julk, thanks for your detailed response. At least this sort of thing doesn't sound uncommon (from SJS). It doesn't bother me, as long as it isn't a symptom of the one and only Rohloff in the history of Rohloff speed hubs to have an unmendable mechanical breakdown whilst in the middle of a trip-of-a-lifetime.
A question about oil change:
I was under the impression that one doesn't have to worry about the first oil change until 5,000k (3000miles)in, or one year from purchase. Do you think I should get SJS to do this first one for me, or, as the 'video' suggests, is it a piece of cake to DIY?
Matt
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Oil changes are VERY easy. If you know how use a screwdriver I am sure you won’t have a problem doing it yourself. Watch the video a couple of times to get the technique down.
You are correct an oil change is not 'required' until 3000 miles however several people have reported a benefit doing the first oil change after the run in period (1000miles).
Best of luck
Stuart
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Matt,
I agree with stutho's reply, and the oil change I did recently was made very easy by watching the video.
I suspect that in the thousands of units that Rohloff make there must be some variation in sizes/tolerances. The gears that tend towards a tighter initial fit will be less tolerant of run-in particles in the oil until they are fully run-in and these are the ones which benefit from an earlier oil change or two.
The oils needed work out quite expensive if you buy just enough for 1 oil change at a time. I started with the basic oil change kit and refill, but when I next need to change the oil I am going to 'invest' in the litre cans and reuse the plastic components.
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I get the slipping you talk about every few weeks (~150 km riding per week). It took a while to work it out but I finally realised I am occasionally over rotating the gear change leaving the hub in between gears. It seems to take about half a pedle revolution for my hand to relax its grip on the shifter and the hub to settle in to the correct gear. I have given up worrying about it now.
Peter Damm
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quote:
Originally posted by pdamm
I get the slipping you talk about every few weeks (~150 km riding per week). It took a while to work it out but I finally realised I am occasionally over rotating the gear change leaving the hub in between gears. It seems to take about half a pedle revolution for my hand to relax its grip on the shifter and the hub to settle in to the correct gear. I have given up worrying about it now.
Peter Damm
Try playing with the tension of the gear cables. I have poor grip in my fingers and have to slacken the cables right off to connect the bayonets, I then tend to over tighten them and get the same thing, slackening them off a bit totally cures it, but go to slack and it makes it worse!
quote:
The oils needed work out quite expensive if you buy just enough for 1 oil change at a time. I started with the basic oil change kit and refill, but when I next need to change the oil I am going to 'invest' in the litre cans and reuse the plastic components.
I did the same, except I worked out a litre would be more than a lifetimes worth, so I split it with others, keeping about 10 years worth. 250ml worked out about a fiver dearer than 25ml and that was after buying decent containers. I think it works out at around £2 per change, cheap enough to do on a whim. There was no shortage of people prepared to buy 250ml from me, I could easily have split another litre. The seals in the syringes won’t last forever, I’m sure there must be a choice of replacements, I can’t see why the pipe shouldn’t last.
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It seems poor marketing to only offer 50ml or 1 litre options. Like PH I was set to buy in bulk but realised that I could not justify the expense unless I was still riding furiously at age 106! Maybe we could encourage SJSC to make up some 250ml bottles, or we could organise something ourselves?
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I would buy 250ml.
Steve
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quote:
Originally posted by geocycle
It seems poor marketing to only offer 50ml or 1 litre options.
It's even worse than that, the small bottles are 25ml each, which seems neither here nor there when you consider the recommended fill is 15ml!
A litre of each costs £60, to buy the same quantity in 25ml bottles costs
wait for it
£479.60
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quote:
Originally posted by PH
quote:
Originally posted by geocycle
It seems poor marketing to only offer 50ml or 1 litre options.
It's even worse than that, the small bottles are 25ml each, which seems neither here nor there when you consider the recommended fill is 15ml!
A litre of each costs £60, to buy the same quantity in 25ml bottles costs
wait for it
£479.60
You're right! I misread the blurb that mentions the 50ml syringe as 50ml of fluids. 25ml is less than two changes - a useless amount [V].
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Thanks for all your advice, fellers. I am suitably reassured about the slipage I have been experiencing.
(Will be quite interesting to see what comes out with the dirty oil, with its first change.)
Regards oil, I would be happy to go in on the bulk purchase of oil, maybe buy 250ml (or 300).
It might be worth taking some oil for a few ml 'top up' after a flight. I noticed after I'd taken my bike (R Catalyst - dream machine) to Turkey last April, there was 'seepage' dribbling down the hub after being in the hold of the plane. Something to do with pressure perhaps?
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I've also experienced a few 'slips' on my hub which has done about 650 miles. I'm not too concerned as I've experienced the same thing on every type of internal gear hub I've ever used and it is nearly always due incorrect cable adjustment or in the case of the rohloff 'over shifting'.
With regard to the rohloff oil, you can buy the small bottles of oil & oil change kits for half the UK price from a german web site though you would need to be ordering other things as well to justify the postage. It might be a bit cheeky to post a link here but if anyone but if anyone wants it, send me a message.
I'd also be in for 250ml of oil if a bulk purchase can be arranged.
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Should have also said, I'd be quite happy to organise a bulk purchase.
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I'm in for 250ml goose. if you want to arrange.
Steve
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This subject has been covered previously and is actually mentioned in the Rohloff manual.
The context in which the makers say it might happen is at low temperatures, but the solution is basically the same: an oil change. Or in extreme cold (lower than likely to experienced in the UK) just using the cleaning oil as the lubrication oil as it's thinner.
It has happened to us and is in my opinion associated with colder temperatures. It seems to happen less or not at all in the summer.
Trying to change gear when pressing on too hard occsionally gives us a different event: the hub hangs in top gear until we ease off (when it goes into gear with a bang). Not too bad on the solo, but if the missus is a bit eager on the tandem it can be a bit nerve jangling, it feels like we should have broken something. But the hub does seem to be bombproof and we don't seem to have damaged one yet.
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Another thread dredge from me, I'm afraid.
I've been using the Rohloff for the past month, without incident. This last week, however, I've been riding my mtb on hillier and more varied, technical terrain and have had several mis-shifts. One appeared to be the well-documented 'pedal pressure between gears 7 & 8', which momentarily jumped the gears to no14 and then back to 7. The next was somewhere between 5 & 7, where I could still pedal, but the gears whirred noisily for about 5-10 seconds, before settling down. Last one was yesterday, when around gear 4-7 ( it's difficult to be sure, when you're concentrating on a steep hill ), I stood up for a moment and there was no engagement, so the crank slipped; thankfully without any pain involved, just a bit of a surprise.
Everything was ok for the next couple of hours and I detected no odd noises or bad gear changes on the way home, but being of a rather anxious nature ( generally leading me to buy 'bombproof' equipment ), I'm slightly concerned of what damage might occur within the hub under these circumstances?
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https://www.bike24.com/p227597.html
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An oil change already? It's had no more than 200 miles on it so far :-\
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Another thread dredge from me, I'm afraid.
I've been using the Rohloff for the past month, without incident. This last week, however, I've been riding my mtb on hillier and more varied, technical terrain and have had several mis-shifts. One appeared to be the well-documented 'pedal pressure between gears 7 & 8', which momentarily jumped the gears to no14 and then back to 7. The next was somewhere between 5 & 7, where I could still pedal, but the gears whirred noisily for about 5-10 seconds, before settling down. Last one was yesterday, when around gear 4-7 ( it's difficult to be sure, when you're concentrating on a steep hill ), I stood up for a moment and there was no engagement, so the crank slipped; thankfully without any pain involved, just a bit of a surprise.
Everything was ok for the next couple of hours and I detected no odd noises or bad gear changes on the way home, but being of a rather anxious nature ( generally leading me to buy 'bombproof' equipment ), I'm slightly concerned of what damage might occur within the hub under these circumstances?
Hi Pete, I recall some similar symptoms shortly after beginning riding with the rohloff. I put it down to my poor gear change technique. I think you probably need to take a bit more weight off the drive when changing. This is now second nature but I must have had it half a dozen times in the early years. I even had that worry-some whirring once but with no long lasting effect. Your usage on technical offroad is probably the hardest to get the change right and one where I might expect to get it wrong on occasion. From what you say I doubt you've done any damage.
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Sounds a bit like an issue I had in the very hilly northern Thailand - a 'slurring' of gear changes which got worse and more frequent over a period of days. Sometimes the gears would engage with a hefty 'clunk' after the slur. It was solved by removing the wheel and solidly whacking the axle-ends with the sole of my shoe. Rohloff recommend using a rubber mallet, but hey, I improvised. In Rohloff speak I think it's called 'detensioning the bearings'. Worked for me.
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I once had a skipping Rohloff hub during my trip in India. It had a resemblance to the skipping of a new chain over a worn out sprocket.
I had the advice of hitting the axle with a rubber hammer too. And also to change the oil.
Both didn't help.
During my trip more and more gears of the Rohloff began to fail, and I had to finish my trip with only 6 working gears.
Once home I sent the hub back to Rohloff, and they sent it back repaired free of charge. On the note accompanying it was written the hub was "calibrated".
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Thanks all for the replies.
Well, an hour's pootle along the canal path this morning and I couldn't hear any weird noises ( maybe gear seven's usual slight whirring ). I'm assuming any broken teeth in there would make an awful racket?
Will put it down to over-eager gear changing on technical terrain and learn to adapt.
One other thing though, how important is the cable tension? I moved the barrel adjusters by 2mm, as recommended by the Rohloff video, but have just noticed today that one of them had been wound back in. Perhaps a slack cable was causing a slight mis-shift?
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Do you have internal gear mech? Then there shouldn't be any tension on the cables at all. You should be able to move the shifter about 2 mm without any resistance.
For the external gear mech it is less critical, since there is the box in between.
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I have the external mech and there is slight play in the shifter, which I believe to be normal.
The 2mm barrel adjustment was mentioned at 4:00 min into this setup video, so I thought it best to follow that.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9_ha9__3VLg
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I was referring to the 2 mm for the internal gear mech, see 2:54 of this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GSsp4wJp_E&t=2m54s).
For external gear mech it isn't that crucial as far as I know.
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After a three hour mtb ride yesterday, there was no slippage or any disconcerting noises, so I'm fairly confident that nothing's grinding away in there :)
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My Hub has had this slipping issue twice. Once at 10000 miles and again at 24000. Back to Germany both times and came back sorted. The first time they just included a note saying "Your hub is working perfectly now - have fun!" The last time they included a note that said they had serviced it and replaced a bit (can't remember what). Both times no charge so can't complain.
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I've not been off the forum for a while but still looking in on this interesting thread.
Hello from Shkoder, Albania! Wonderful place! 3700km so far from near Edinburgh. Some comments on day-in-day out Rohloff use over the last 9 weeks (used in temp range 5 Deg C to 38 Deg C) ...
I agree with the gear 7 to 8 slippage, it has happened about 4 times in that distance. I found a quick gear change up and down and back to gear 8 instantly got rid of the problem. After it happened a couple of times, with the whirring thing etc., I made small adjustments to the cable tensions (I have the internal gear version on my 2009 Raven Tour). It makes all the difference.
My method of resolution was to set the gear to 8, and ensure that it aligned exactly with the centre of the gear 8 indicator on the shifter. Also adjusting it so that gear 7 and 9 clicked in with about 2mm of gear shifter play. Then select gear 14 and ensure it was as close as possible to the centre of the gear marking on the shifter. Repeat with the gear 1 position. Then back to gear 8 to ensure again it was in the gear 8 centre position on the shifter. Repeat with fine adjustments until you get 'the feel' that it is good. You are looking for a non-sluggish clean click between gears.
Its a bit of a black art but after many km, it seems to make sense. I did this twice on this trip and everything re. Rohloff is working well.
There have been a couple of odd clunks, in gear 4 or 5 that resolved themselves immediately. All in all, the Rohloff is a well behaved beast, and a beast that is so far remaining well behaved. I have over 12000km total on the hub now and gets better and better with age (distance) like a fine wine.
I had some major drips of oil from the hub at one stage which stopped after a couple of days, but I don't worry about that! It will be a well deserved oil change on my return home. Best not to worry as I get the feeling that the Rohloff will continue to perform albeit with a few rare hiccups!
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i had this slipping too about 10 times in 2000kms. horrible crunching and grinding. rohloff swapped out the internals (found no problem) but it still persists, theres no rhyme or reason to it, but common when im applying more torque like going uphill. ive often suspected incorrect shifting. i thought maybe it was the brake bands™ . i think it has something to do with the chain, as I have noticed a correlation with other chain issues.
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Rohloff hub gear all seasons oil and cleaning oil are available on Ebay and from German dealers in the expensive small single-service kits, 250cc and 1 liter packages. The 250cc size seems to me the most economical compromise between having to live to 130 to use a liter of each and spending nearly 500 quid by buying the tiny service kits.
On Julian's point about unevenly distributed and intermittent rough gear changes, improving with mileage, it isn't surprising that the odd Rohloff should need more running in than the average Rohloff hub. The Rohloff is a low unit number series production item of considerably complicated engineering -- with a good deal of hand fitting inside. That's why Rohloff is so very keen on that first service, and the service schedule, and also why SJS, and Rohloff lore, suggest doing the first service a bit earlier, to get the bits of metal knocked off the teeth out of the box.
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hi Andre, whats this service entail? when?
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hi Andre, whats this service entail? when?
I hope it just means the oil change.
Mike
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Yep time and time again I see there's not much point in changing the oil sooner than 5k. Rohloff changed my oil and the internals and still crunching.
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Is there a bit of slack in your cables, Andrew? Sometimes, too-tight cables can lead to crunching and slipping....
Best,
Dan.
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I'm talking about the standard 3000m/5000km/1 year (whichever comes first) oil change. This is a change in which the cleaning oil is used to flush out the gearbox, after which the box is filled with all-seasons oil. The reason for making two oil changes (instead of the one required by your warranty and the handbook) in the first year is that any tiny bits knocked off the gears should be flushed out -- and worried owners should be given a confidence boost. Whether either is essential is a matter of opinion. (I'm an economist and a psychologist, so I'm keen on abracadabra because I've seen it work all my life, but I'll understand if riders who've practiced engineering all their lives are more cautious.)
Also, if you have the external klickbox, while you're changing the gearbox oil is a good time to put fresh grease in the klickbox, which is theoretically but wastefully supposed to get new grease every 500km.
The best advice I can give the new Rohloff owner is: Don't worry so much about small stuff. You need to be superman to break a Rohloff box. Ride it and enjoy, in full confidence that it will outlive you -- and your grandchildren will still ride grandpa's bike. The great Chalo Colina, a famed Boeing toolmaker, who knows a thing or two about mechanisms under stress (he weighs north of 350 pounds, so he starts testing where other designers' nightmares end), has several Rohloff gearboxes. He told me, "A Shimano Nexus/Alfine hub gearbox will lie down and die before you run in a Rohloff box." (Paraphrased from memory.) I didn't believe him. Then I broke two Shimano gearboxes at a mileage where my Rohloff wasn't yet run in...
Remember this too: the Rohloff wasn't designed as a luxury, smooth, quiet touring bike gearbox. It's a piece of agricultural equipment designed to survive constant high-stress offroad racing, mud plugging, even beach racing, because that's the sort of riding Bernd Rohloff did. In fact, I (and many others here, as you can discover by reading passim) expected the Rohloff to be constantly louder than it actually is. Mine is, for practical purposes, silent now that it is run in (it still gets smoother but at nearly 10k it must surely be run in -- this could get ridiculous!). Unless you hear constant loud crunching, there is most likely nothing wrong with your gearbox.
Relax, ride and enjoy.
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thanks Andre, very reassuring!
2 oil changes sounds good.
i suppose the thing that got me worried was every other rohloff owner i spoke to (before coming here) telling me "what? no, thats never happened to me! tell rohloff" and then rohloff recalling my unit. there was nothing wrong with my internals, there is nothing wrong with the current one, yet it still crunches. i suspect its something to do with the chain.
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Is there a bit of slack in your cables, Andrew? Sometimes, too-tight cables can lead to crunching and slipping....
Best,
Dan.
Ive been told theyre ok Dan, they can be loosened by the cable adjusters on the external mech, correct?
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Yep, should be okay. Just hoping for a quick and easy answer to your dilemma, Andrew.
Sure hope it resolves soon!
All the best,
Dan.
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cheers Dan, worth checking that again, but stu stabik and the local rohloff apparatchik werent interested in this
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The SPEEDHUB does not require any special care to be taken during the break-in period (the first 1000km) like old car engines because the internal gears do not wear in as such, the component surfaces are merely slightly polished through use. The components are all chemically de-burred by Rohloffs subcontractors before being built into hubs back at the factory. The mating surfaces of these components could be polished prior to being used but that would increase the cost of the product to astronomical levels. Market research showed the majority of customers would rather spend the 1000km or so breaking-in the hub themselves then spend the extra money to have this process completed in the factory.
Because we are not talking about larger abrasive particles floating in the oil, the initial oil change does not need to be completed early. If this was necessary, I would guess that Rohloff would have stated this as necessary for warranty cover and to earn an extra few quid in revenue. They didn't/don't so no need to panic.
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Remember this too: the Rohloff wasn't designed as a luxury, smooth, quiet touring bike gearbox. It's a piece of agricultural equipment designed to survive constant high-stress offroad racing, mud plugging, even beach racing, because that's the sort of riding Bernd Rohloff did.
This is interesting, Andre.
Can you recommend somewhere I can read up on the history - development of the Rohloff?
Thanks
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Can you recommend somewhere I can read up on the history - development of the Rohloff?
Matt,
Barbara Rohloff's _Rohloff Stories_ makes a very good read. See:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/books-publications-dvds/rohloff-stories-book-by-barbara-rohloff/?geoc=US
Be sure you get the English edition and not the one written in default German.
I've enjoyed reading and re-reading mine from time to time. Tells much of what you would like to know, plus many stories of the gearbox in use 'round the world.
Best,
Dan.