Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Member's Gallery => Topic started by: Far-Oeuf on September 29, 2014, 06:32:07 PM
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Finally been out testing my fast-touring/light-camping setup, for autumn type weather in Europe. Heading towards the Alps (round the German/Luxembourg/Austria side) towards Slovenia, leaving this week. Hoping that the relatively mild weather continues, up in the mountains.
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2944/15393414375_f0c732105f_c.jpg)
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Oh Anto...take a look at this one! ;D
Very very nice, Doug.
Best,
Dan.
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class for sure but how you guys do it is a mystery to me ;D ;D
anto.
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Ummm...
Doug, where do you... put stuff?
I mean, I've heard of travelling light, but surely that's not all you're taking?
???
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yes indeed, this is it.
I've spent a while working on the 'sleeping system', about 2 years trying out various ways of staying dry, lightweight and comfortable (within reason). I'm now carrying a tent outer (Hilleberg Akto, urgghh, but another story), a 100% waterproof bivvy bag (Snugpak SF, about the size of a bag of sugar), and a sleeping bag (cheap Decathlon 7-degrees plus). Tent under the bars, bivvy bag in the bar-bag, sleeping bag in the tail pack. Mostly I'll bivvy, but on the wet nights (or if I end up in a campsite) I'll use the tent with the bivvy bag inside. Essentially the bivvy bag replaces the tent inner, and is more versatile as well as being smaller/lighter. I also carry a half-size 'sock like' mozzie net which slips over the top half of the sleeping bag. I try to do three nights wild-camping and one night in a hotel/hostel.
Under the saddle is a tool pack, plus a rear light attached. NBT2, chain links, chain tool, spoke wrench, punture repair kit, inner tube, multi-tool.
In the rear pack, along with the sleeping bag, are non-cycling shorts, thermal top, 2 x socks.
In the bar-bag, along with the bivvy-bag, are passport and credit cards, 'purse' for cash, 5" smartphone for GPS logging and digital needs, mini-tripod, head torch which doubles as bike front light, pen and notebook, knife, mozzie-net, and toothbrush/paste. A bunch of paper maps in the map-case. Also some space in the bar-bag for daily food (additional food storage in rear pocket of cycling jersey).
@jags, well.. Last trip to Norway, through the night, I had to get up every couple of hours and walk about to get feeling back in my feet. It was quite a bit below zero, and I was in the bivvy bag with a zero-plus sleeping bag. I wasn't sleeping because of the pain shooting through the feet, so no need for an alarm clock :) An extreme example possibly, but 'going light' is probably just an exercise in pushing the boundaries of what you are able to tolerate.
The big draw, for me, is climbing mountains at 'normal' pace, descending fast without under/over steering because of luggage, sitting drinking a coffee and looking at how little I need to survive/thrive on the mountain roads after riding thousands of kms to get there. But above all, maybe, the sheer distance a bicycle will allow you to cover, 100km per day, 200km, 300km? It's a bit like being able to do an Audax ride, taking in the Stelvio pass. And then the following day another one taking in the St Bernard. On a bike that feels responsive, that you can sprint with, that's basically the bike you wheel out your front door for a day-ride.
It's also quite possible that I am simply not good at remembering stuff, and taking so few things means I am less likely to leave stuff behind :)
EDIT: ooh, and a lock wrapped around the bar-bag mount.
cheers,
Doug
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really nice bike, but no stove or mug ? one question TEA? what do you do?
I can't even comprehend no cooking kit and no hot drinks :o
vargo triad weighs an ounce and Ti mug not much more
how do you cope with so little water and no steralisation methods to pick up more ?
My hat's off i doubt i could do/last an overnighter on that kit
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if you added a third bottle under the down tube you could carry a cooking system of sorts well nough to make coffee or tea soup.
DOUG your mental but in a super hero way,
there plenty of big mile eaters here on the forum but i don't think there's one that does the ultralight thing.Fair play man i guess im way past even trying something like that.
when i do eventually get my tent sorted my set up will be good i'll have all i need to keep me warm and dry and fed ::)
wow seriously dont know how you do it Respect Doug but yeah i reckon your a crazy man for sure. 8) 8)
Anto.
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cookers are a bug-bear of mine. you take a cooker and you also need to take some water (if wild-camping), you also need to take a cup, or a pan. and you're then into, "oh, I could cook a meal." so you have to carry food, and then spices and oils to make it taste remotely edible. and then you have to wash all that stuff up, and you need soap.
I look in on the world of the camp-cooking-folk, and I just see a world of pain ;-)
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No sleeping mat ???... no change of clothes :o :o. !
What do you do if you arrive soaked? Do you still have any friends after a week?? :D
I'm impressed, but it's too spartan for me.
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Truly, bivvying within tent. Fantastic left field thinking and experiment. I love it when people challenge the tyranny of commercial solutions. Chapeau!
For my 2p worth I reckon you could get all of that stuff in a Carradice camper longflap, leave the steering completely unencumbered, slightly reduce total bag weight, make packing easier and have a little bit of room for food. ;)
Igor here http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.co.uk/ is the master of minimalism.
Keep up the original work
Ian
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I have an array of Carradice bags, all tried and tested. I used the Nelson long flap (not on this bike), but found that at high speed (down Glenshee) the wind caused the bag to, sort of, wobble, which in turn caused the bike to start weaving. Quite scary at the time. Because the bag is only really secured in the centre, it leaves a lot of weight out at the sides that catches the wind.
I'd have used the Junior, but the Team Pro saddle has no bag loops. I'm aware you can buy after-market bag loops, and I might well try those out. But the roll-bag is by far the most secure (and waterproof) bag I've tried so far. By some margin.
I've also become utterly convinced that balancing the weight fore and aft is the way to go. I started playing around with the under-bar space years ago, and have even gone light-touring trips without anything on the rear and just the tent and bar-bag up front. I've no science or engineering evidence to give, but in terms of how the bike feels it's much better lightly loaded at the front (rather than lightly/fully loaded at the back).
Yes, I'm actually really pleased to have worked out that the Akto tent becomes pretty good once you remove the inner. Less than half the weight, and pack size. A decent privacy shelter (in campsites, for example), a decent rain cover, you can reach the vents (!), and I now have double the space inside. Quite a few people use a tarp with a bivvy bag, but they are less good than a tent outer. Particularly so if you're away for weeks at a time, a tarp really is an emergency type shelter (my opinion) that works in only a few weather conditions.
@Donerol, yes change of clothes is spare shorts and another top. so I do actually wash my cycling gear :)
@Bill C, bear in mind this is for Europe travel, so water sterilisation isn't an issue. In Hungary this summer I was going through a lot of water, in near forty degrees. So if I was going somewhere hot I'd add a third bottle (under the downtube). But there's normally civilisation of some sort with 50km, or 100km at worst. I fill up with water at pretty much every opportunity.
I've found that skipping the odd meal isn't really a problem, so long as overall my diet is good. Probably the least hospitable place to cycle, when you need constantly pick up food/water, is the Scottish Highlands on a Sunday!
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Garnish with luggage and season to taste :D
I find even the lightest loaded barbag spoils the steering for me on any of my Thorns. Far more so than direct mounted front panniers ???
Have you tried putting extra buckle holes in the Carradice mount straps so you can cinch the dowel right up close and tight to the saddle? Greatly reduces bag swing, as does using a large reusable tie wrap around the seat post in addition to or in place of the lower strap.
No loops on a Brooks! Sacrelige :(
Enjoy the ride, I even think the blue/red paint is ok. But it's only matt black for me.
Ian
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...so you have to carry food...
<snip>
I look in on the world of the camp-cooking-folk, and I just see a world of pain ;-)
Well Doug, I really admire your resourcefulness, but most of us need food to survive. :D
Maybe I'm too old and set in my ways, but I want enough comfort on tour to want to stay touring and enjoy myself. Yours is a particularly European-enabled way of touring, I grant you that!
Have a safe and enjoyable journey, and if you don't freeze to death, perhaps you can post some photos? ;D
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I'm not really looking to use Carradice stuff, the roll-bag is way better (for this purpose). though perhaps the roll-bag inside the Carradice bag...
just to be clear, I'm not on a sight-seeing tour, I'm testing out what it's like to rack up some big miles on consecutive days. the intention is to work up to a couple of 300km days, back to back, trying to understand if ultra-distance racing is something I really want to get into. comfort isn't a high priority, though I suspect a few beers when I get to Slovenia might be :-)
I discovered a brilliant book yesterday-ish called Mountain Higher. It's a book of climbs in Europe, with a little human history, cycling history, and all the technical stats on the climb. Inspired by early cycling pioneers, and the high passes that have featured in various bike races (TdF, Giro, etc), it's a great source for route planning; if mountains are your thing. Worth a look, if you're planning a trip next summer and want something a little off the beaten track (compared with the likes of the Stelvio).
cheers,
Doug
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just to be clear, I'm not on a sight-seeing tour, I'm testing out what it's like to rack up some big miles on consecutive days. the intention is to work up to a couple of 300km days, back to back,
Wow! Respect!!
8)
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Wow! Respect!!
8)
I'll get back to you on that, in a few weeks :)
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and finally, the icing on the cake (which arrived just in time):
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3927/15413167995_8437b6b6d7_c.jpg)
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Yes!!!!
A lovely pair of Simplex retro-friction levers. Back in the day, a friend framed a spare set of his and mounted them in a shadowbox on his wall as Art. No argument from me, though their real beauty is in use, as intended.
Glad you got 'em, Doug.
All the best,
Dan.
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incredible to think these particular levers are thirty years old. a little indulgence, sure, but at Ł40 not breaking the bank for what are probably the finest (functionally) friction shifters ever made.
cheers,
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I have had these on my Mercian for about 25 years. At one stage I thought they were giving up but a quick dismantle and regrease and they were as good as new.
A couple of points to note if you haven't used them before.
1. The barrels are smaller diameter than some other levers, and I find they wear the cables more quickly, which break just behind the nipple.
2. These days the nipples on most commonly-sold cables are just too big to fit into the recess. They will still work fine but protrude above the lever, and can be a bit uncomfortable under the thumbs. If you find some that fit, stock up on them. Rohloff gear cables fit. You could always file down bigger nipples but it's a bit of a faff.
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You could always file down bigger nipples but it's a bit of a faff.
I've filed 'em! Yes, a bit of a faff, but then they look and fit right till next time. :D
Alternatively, I've overbored the bed-stop on a set to the owner's preference. Doesn't take much, and leaves the finish intact if you do it with care.
All the best,
Dan.
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why not just drill the hole bigger counter sink bit should work. ::)
anto
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Fibrax ('Science range') gear cables appear to fit perfectly.
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Fibrax ('Science range') gear cables appear to fit perfectly.
Yay! Best solution yet...and no mods necessary.
Best,
Dan.
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You lucky man Doug. I still hanker for the smooth yet positive gear selection these gave with a Super Record mech and a Maillard 6 speed block in '84. Never bettered for me.
Can you give some feedback on how they work with your 8 speed please. Particularly regarding the arc of travel required for the rear mech lever.
Some nice background on them here http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/retro-friction-part-one.html
I believe Jan Heine (Compass Bicycles) likes these and has expressed a hope that someone would remake them with a little more cable pull. I'm wishing really hard now!
Beautiful line drawing showing external beauty and internal elegance here (down the page) http://janheine.wordpress.com/2013/09/09/autumn-2013-bicycle-quarterly/
Enjoy
Ian
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I'll certainly report back, in a few weeks. I didn't transplant the 8-speed gearing onto the Club Tour yet, so I'm still on 10-speed. Will be interesting to see how these levers actually work out, so far so good (fully extended to reach the largest cog, but OK).
Experimentation is all part of the journey :)
cheers,
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Doug,
If cable travel proves to be a problem, you could always make and insert a simple leverage-changing bell crank midway in the cable run (as I did on a friend's bike) or install a TravelAgent-like pulley just before the rear mech.
These levers are certain worth the effort.
If you can get them to work as-is, so much the better. As long as you don't run out of travel, the smaller drum size will make it easier to engage each gear on the 10 - speed cassette...and it should work a treat on 8. The only problems I've had friction-shifting on 9-speed came from the narrow cog spacing and the difficulty in avoiding ovetshifts. Still, things came right in short order as I adjusted to the shorter throw. With the smaller barrels, these should be far easier.
Best,
Dan.
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triaesthete, good link/site. this is a good opinion also, I think : http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/simple-machines.html (http://bikeretrogrouch.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/simple-machines.html)
Dan, I think cable travel is fine. Well, I know it is. It just depends on if it feels ok to have the lever travel fully inline with the downtube, when at both extremes of travel (if that makes sense). certainly no technical fouling anywhere. we'll see, looking forward to living with it and seeing how I get on (as well as with the whole bike).
good help/suggestions all round though, thanks! :)
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Ian, great line drawing too! I'll include it here as an image, incase anyone misses the link
(http://janheine.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/simplex_retseck.jpg)
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Experimentation is definitely part of the fun :D But some of it has to be vicarious or it gets too expensive. I look forward to your report Doug.
Dan I wonder if making them with a bigger drum would spoil them as it would give the rear mech spring more leverage against the clutch spring requiring it to be stiifer? It would reduce the radius of the cable bend and extend cable life though. Interesting thought I'd never had that the small drum increases lever throw per shift and therefore gear separation!! (Despite this being the corollary of insufficient cable pull,duh!).
Thanks again for yet another thought provoking post.
Happy shifting
Ian
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The best way I can describe the Simplex shifters is as if they were made with precision marshmallow. So, so soft and smooth, and yet very precise feedback which means very few problem shifts. Brilliant.
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"Precision marshmallow" Brilliant ;D Fuzzy indexing!?
What are you going to hang them on instead of the CT?
Ian
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A Disc Trucker, with my existing Long Haul Trucker (non disc) forks.
Me and the Club Tour just wafted past the Where Eagles Dare castle, south of Salzburg in Austria. It's now a blazing hot afternoon and I think this is where the CT is in its element. A great riding day in the mountains.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5616/15535384752_a8d499b2ea.jpg)
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The effect on rims (front v-brake, rear disc) after 1000km:
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5612/15386630559_0f83fa596b.jpg)
Climbing Mangart in Slovenia, the countries highest paved road (about 2000m). Follow it up with the ride over Vriši?.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/15379082567_ce3053e17f.jpg)
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Briliant bikes were made for this sort of thing 8)
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Now trying out a Surly Trucker front fork, early signs are that it's much improved fast-descending on non-smooth UK roads.
(https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5608/15593735389_418d04ff37.jpg)
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Thong Haul Clucker.
That will annoy someone ;)
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;D ;D ;D not me .
jags
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...That will annoy someone
Yes, terribly, Ian. I was drinking a glass of milk at the time and now have to clean and dry my keyboard.
;D
All the best,
Dan. (...who loves malapropisms almost as much as he loves puns)
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gonna have to check wiki for that one dan ??? ;D
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Surly you jest. He keeps forking out on that bike.
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to be fair, I'm simply trying out a heavier duty fork which happens to be made by Surly (I don't have a standard Thorn fork) :). The 853 Thorn fork was great with about 5kg load on the front bars, but for my riding is a bit jittery unloaded.
One thing I've learnt is that there's how a bike 'feels' and how a bike actually 'is'. A bike may feel faster, lighter, etc, but that does not necessarily mean it is faster, lighter, etc. And, further, it simply does not matter whether the bike actually is faster, lighter, etc, what's important is that it feels faster, lighter, etc. Might sound convoluted, but I'm convinced.
Incidentally, the bars dropped 3cm with the fork change, and the axle to fork crown difference was +1cm. So the bars have gone down 2cm. Fork weight has probably increased by 800g. I would love to know how much more leg muscle is required to push along an extra 800g?
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Doug,
It sounds to me as if you've changed the effective trail of the bike by substituting a fork of different rake and reach/height.
This little treatise on trail, both geometric and pneumatic, might help explain what's going on handlingwise as a result of your fork swap: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4245.0
Of course, the Mk2 Sherpa in my example is a much different bike from your Audax Mk3, but the principles are the same.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Yes, for sure. With the longer axle to crown (Surly fork 390mm, Thorn fork 378mm) the head tube angle will be slightly more relaxed. From your link, perhaps the effect of this should be to move the handling a little way along the scale further into neutral territory. I may try and work out the numbers over the weekend.
I've just ridden a few of passes in the Alps, and the handling was brilliant (Thorn 853 fork). I was up in the 60-70kph range quite often, and not the slightest handling problem/poor sensation. But when unloaded and, say, riding over some rough-ish ripple in the tarmac, if I look behind (for traffic) then I'd find the bike exhibits similar symptoms to those you describe in the high-trail section. When thinking about how I ride this bike, I'm now aware that changes of direction over less-than-smooth tarmac are something I have been avoiding; I ride over it then turn.
That there is a difference between loaded and unloaded indicates to me, in troubleshooting mode, that this (how the bike feels to me) isn't caused/fixed by a geometry change. I wanted to test my theory that stronger forks work better for me, as this was something that came up in my first impression of the bike. If, as a result, the geometry becomes more neutral, that's a bonus for me, as I prefer stability over feeling-fast through a manufactured 'lively' geometry. I get why people like 'lively' handling, but I actually go faster if I have more predictable handling (as I also do on motorbikes).
Your linked post is very interesting, I'll try and ingest it over the next few days. For the sake of completeness it would be good to test a stnadard Thorn fork, but as triasthete says, I've forked out enough already... :)
cheers,
Doug