Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: energyman on August 01, 2014, 04:23:01 PM
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In three days I have been asked that question three times. The finger pointing towards the black Rohloff gear hub.
I'm going to get a Tee Shirt printed with the answer.
(I feel a lot better now. It's been a hot day and I'm tired.)
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nah keep them guessing ;D ;D
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I've seen more e-bikes here in Austria than elsewhere. There are even public charging stations for them.
I tell ya, I'm beginning to lust after one myself, if only to have a prayer of keeping up with the octogenarians that blast past me going uphill.
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I tell ya, I'm beginning to lust after one myself, if only to have a prayer of keeping up with the octogenarians that blast past me going uphill.
You've come to the right place. We know all about combining electric motors with Rohloff gearboxes.
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I've seen more e-bikes here in Austria than elsewhere. There are even public charging stations for them.
I tell ya, I'm beginning to lust after one myself, if only to have a prayer of keeping up with the octogenarians that blast past me going uphill.
Dan!
Do not dare to even mention these abortions......
If anyone needs power buy a real moped and pay road tax and insurance.
Please do not help the purveyors of these horrible things. I am pretty poorly but would sooner die (or at least give up) than ride one of these monstrosities!
Cycles are for cycling not Electrifying.
By the way Dan, I hope that your trip is going to plan. I have not had much chance (as you know) to keep up, on here.
All the best, even to power riders,
John
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Dan!
Do not dare to even mention these abortions......
If anyone needs power buy a real moped and pay road tax and insurance.
Please do not help the purveyors of these horrible things. I am pretty poorly but would sooner die (or at least give up) than ride one of these monstrosities!
Cycles are for cycling not Electrifying.
By the way Dan, I hope that your trip is going to plan. I have not had much chance (as you know) to keep up, on here.
All the best, even to power riders,
John
John, that may be your view but many would not agree with you, one being Brian Robinson, the first British rider to finish the Tour de France in 1955 and the first to win a stage in 1958. He uses one now, In a TV interview during the 2014 Tour de France he said "I am not proud that I need one but I am very happy to use it as it means I can still enjoy cycling, which without assistance I would not be able to do."
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the only gripe i have about electric bikes is.
i don't own one mores the pity ;D ;D
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Doing the grocery shopping the other day--volume & frequency cranked up significantly with our family from Oz here the last month--and at the bike stand I chatted with a young woman who I first thought was on a touring bike. Turned out to be a pedelec (I didn't note the brand), a Euro-trekking-style set up with a variable electric assist, the motor in the rear hub (about 6" in diameter). She uses her bike for a daily round-trip commute of 50 kms, about an hour in each direction -- & reckons that without the assist, she'd be doing at least another half-hour or more, or maybe not cycle-commuting at all.
The amount of assist can be pre-set via a small computer. and is triggered by the torque the rider exerts on the pedals. The battery is tucked under the rear rack, about 16" L x 4" W x 2" high. Looked like a pretty good set-up to me -- she was very pleased with it, and one more cycling commuter for 8 - 9 months of the year is One Less Car.
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Doing the grocery shopping the other day--volume & frequency cranked up significantly with our family from Oz here the last month--and at the bike stand I chatted with a young woman who I first thought was on a touring bike. Turned out to be a pedelec (I didn't note the brand), a Euro-trekking-style set up with a variable electric assist, the motor in the rear hub (about 6" in diameter). She uses her bike for a daily round-trip commute of 50 kms, about an hour in each direction -- & reckons that without the assist, she'd be doing at least another half-hour or more, or maybe not cycle-commuting at all.
The amount of assist can be pre-set via a small computer. and is triggered by the torque the rider exerts on the pedals. The battery is tucked under the rear rack, about 16" L x 4" W x 2" high. Looked like a pretty good set-up to me -- she was very pleased with it, and one more cycling commuter for 8 - 9 months of the year is One Less Car.
It is NOT however, a bicycle anymore.
It is now a moped.
John
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It is NOT however, a bicycle anymore.
It is now a moped.
John
:(
That really depends on which definition is used!
bi/cycle = two/wheel
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It is NOT however, a bicycle anymore.
It is now a moped.
John
Oh for goodness sake .... you've made this point on more than one occasion - once is enough surely? It's not really helping to be continually reminded of it.
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2>4 whatever equation achieves it, especially if x= -1 car ;)
I got asked if mine was electric once because the low gearing and sweet steering allowed a smoothly dignified and tight u turn on an uneven and loose surfaced layby. It must be the bike 'cos I'm no circus performer.
John, better to pedal a bit than not pedal at all surely? Do you not cut your nose off to spite your face?
Ian
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Oh for goodness sake .... you've made this point on more than one occasion - once is enough surely? It's not really helping to be continually reminded of it.
I apologise for repeating my feelings regarding electrified bikes which are mopeds by another name. I was not aware this was the Thorn moped Forum ;D
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It is NOT however, a bicycle anymore.
It is now a moped.
John
Clearly it is not a moped because the definitions and regulations that apply to mopeds do not apply to electric assist bicycles.
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It is NOT however, a bicycle anymore.
It is now a moped.
Hmm, 50kms in 1 hour equates to approximately 30mph which does sound like a moped type speed
and this would tend to mandate a license, a crash-helmet, insurance, vehicle excise duty, MOT, lights, indicators, etc
However, in the UK at least, if an electrically assisted bicycle meets the following rules https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules (https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules)
then it is not classed as a moped but is instead classed as an electrically assisted bicycle at least from the vehicle legal stand-point.
There is however still the interesting question about whether it is regarded as a true bicycle from the insurance perspective
because there are certainly insurance policies that cover bicycles but not electrically assisted bicycles.
Ian W.
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I apologise for repeating my feelings regarding electrified bikes which are mopeds by another name. I was not aware this was the Thorn moped Forum ;D
It's not a deaf people's forum either John ;) why do you always have to shout?
Think of them as bikes for people with cycling difficulties. Should be available on mobility allowance and encouraged. Get one before the bureaucrats spoil it 8)
Happy days one and all
Ian
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I bought one to get back into using a bike, its hilly round these parts!, Panasonic drive, no peddling no go, used it for a couple of years, before selling it for a Rohloff equipped bike, and yes I've had the its electric comment,
They certainly have there place, and if at some point in the future I find I can't manage on a normal bike then I wouldn't hesitate to get another,
Mark
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However, in the UK at least, if an electrically assisted bicycle meets the following rules https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules (https://www.gov.uk/electric-bike-rules)
then it is not classed as a moped but is instead classed as an electrically assisted bicycle at least from the vehicle legal stand-point.
Mmm. By these rules hardly any of the electric bikes that manufacturers and riders fondly call "pedelecs" actually qualify as legal. Check this:
the motor shouldn’t have a maximum power output of more than 200 watts if it’s a bicycle and 250 watts if it’s a tandem or tricycle
Most common motors, and certainly the most popular motor for conversions, the Bafang 8FUN QSWXK and its rear-wheel and less-well finished cousins which have the same high-torque gubbins, are rated 250W by the manufacturer, to fit the European pedelec spec, and seems to me (but what do I know, as I'll be happy to tell a judge should I be called as an expert to convict a cyclist caught for breaking these rules) to be very humbly rated.
My own opinion -- and note that I live elsewhere -- is that a British magistrate will probably accept that the European standard takes precedence. But I wonder if there isn't a precedential ruling already.
But that isn't actually the key consideration. The most important thing here, as Ian says, is the attitude of the insurance companies. I think they're very likely to take your premiums and then when you need a payout to argue that your 250W motor breaks the law, which excludes it under their policy.
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A little self-awareness can go a long way.
You are cordially invited to join Narcissists International on our ride to the Flattering Reflecting Pool this Saturday. ;D
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I'm a solipsist. If I go to narcissise you can come too Andre ;)
If you can admit human frailty and get a pedelec when the time comes you'll go a long way...
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If you can admit human frailty and get a pedelec when the time comes you'll go a long way...
I'll drink to this. I'm a frail human and I've got a motor on the way. I expect to go a long way (between battery charges)
ians
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If you can admit human frailty and get a pedelec when the time comes you'll go a long way...
Got mine. Am still cycling. I take the view that there is no need to be embarrassed about what keeps me alive.
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Chapeau and cheers to you both.
I came across this gem today: I live by 'life is a gradual release from ignorance' and the hardest part of that philosophy is just how 'gradual' that 'release' can be. True for me but you guys help.
Keep pedalling and enjoy the summer wine.
Ian
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thank you - and that's a nice philosophy.
I have two mantras, neither original;
1. you'll never run out of money, you'll only ever run out of time. From a mandolin owner in New York trying to sell a $3,000 instrument to a friend of mine. I use it when I need a new camera or bike part. This mantra, however useful, does not apply to my children who always seem to run out of money.
2. quitting is forever. From LA who did so much damage to cycling and did some good for cancer.
If the hurricane doesn't hit us on sunday I'll be out on the bike.
ians
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It's not a deaf people's forum either John ;) why do you always have to shout?
Think of them as bikes for people with cycling difficulties. Should be available on mobility allowance and encouraged. Get one before the bureaucrats spoil it 8)
Happy days one and all
Ian
Hello,
I am not shouting! I am emphasising but I am not an internet geek, freak or stickler for 'rules'.
I am merely a bystander in a Forum for voicing and asking opinions.
Please please please, read and enjoy.
I suffer dreadful health problems which take to Hospital weekly. I will never ride or promote electrified machines.
Generally (note meaning) these bikes are 'ridden' by people who should not be on the road.
Wobblers, people who are wanting to be seen as doing the correct thing, but making a mess of it. Believe it or not and it is true, I recently encountered 30 'cyclists' riding a 50 mile Charity ride being paid for being such brave soldiers riding such a long distance. This was in Christchurch, Dorset. 23 of them were on electrified bikes.
I think I am making 'my case'?
I have even encountered these things being ridden by power not pedal, along the pavement.
No no no, I do not like electrified by, and by the way I am actually shouting now!!!!!
I am not a believer in electrically powered vehicles, nor do I subscribe to wind power, my feeling is for tidal power.
John
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HI All!
I think this is one topic that will run the gamut from firm advocate to fervent detractor with plenty of fence sitters in between. It isn't too unlike the debate about whether road cycling is better than MTB or touring.
As for the Forum, I so wish we could all cycle to the real cafe for a real cuppa and good convo. Instead, we must do our best with this medium, where words stand alone unleavened by the twinkle of an eye or a bit of a grin while delivering the same message, sometimes with different impact.
We all get there in the end, each by our own way. What a colorless, boring world if all were the same!
All the best,
Dan. (...who is enjoying a cuppa dark espresso in a Hungarian cafe while lightning dances about outside. Work it just right and Danneaux gets an electric bike!)
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ha ha - enjoy your coffee and the remainder of your epic trip.
best
ians
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Dan. (...who is enjoying a cuppa dark espresso in a Hungarian cafe while lightning dances about outside. Work it just right and Danneaux gets an electric bike!)
Ian has it spot on: epic.
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Hi Ian, Andre!
Many thanks for the good wishes. It has been a big 'un. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8639.msg67105;topicseen#msg67105
All the best,
Dan. (...who has a little ways to go yet)
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Hi Ian, Andre!
Many thanks for the good wishes. It has been a big 'un. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8639.msg67105;topicseen#msg67105
All the best,
Dan. (...who has a little way to go yet)
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Danneaux gets an electric bike!
Sparkling? Crackling? I always liked Electric Blue on vehicles...
Safe journeys, Dan. Enjoy the coffee 'n' ambiance -- probably a few grades better than we'll see this side of the water for some time yet.
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There is a bike shop near a bike path that I frequently ride on that specializes in electric bikes. I rode on that bike trail today past that bike shop, somebody was on a bike that had a huge battery compartment. I started thinking from that what my response will be next time somebody asks if my bike is an electric bike ... ... Yup, and since I have a generator in my front hub, I do not even need to carry a battery to power the rear hub.
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I bought one to get back into using a bike, its hilly round these parts!, Panasonic drive, no peddling no go, used it for a couple of years, before selling it for a Rohloff equipped bike, and yes I've had the its electric comment,
They certainly have there place, and if at some point in the future I find I can't manage on a normal bike then I wouldn't hesitate to get another,
THIS ^^^
Is the key advantage of pedelecs/power-assisted bikes - the ability to introduce/re-introduce people to cycling, to overcome their fears of how 'hard it all is'. I have heard of numbers of folks who have comne back to cycling and are still active - even moving to a regular bike and even selling the pedelec later on. More people riding bikes (pedelecs included) has got to be a very good thing.
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I suffer dreadful health problems which take to Hospital weekly. I will never ride or promote electrified machines.
In the hospital...... Do you use an elevator or take the stairs ;) :D
Generally (note meaning) these bikes are 'ridden' by people who should not be on the road.
Wobblers, people who are wanting to be seen as doing the correct thing, but making a mess of it.
This a sad, sad way to condemn people who are trying to get out and ride.
I have even encountered these things being ridden by power not pedal, along the pavement.
European pedelecs cannot be ridden under power-assist without pedaling. Stop pedalling - the motor stops working. So we are talking about at least two different beasts - the power-assist that uses a throttle to tow you along,; and the pedelec with automatic torque-controlled throttle that assists your pedalling. The third type is the Chinese/Korean/USA/backyard jobbies that are over-powered and have little intention to be pedalled much at all
Note how it has pedals.... Oh yes, it is bicycle sir ;)
(http://www.evrdr.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/ecoped.jpg)
Just for a little fling!
(https://www.eta.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/stealth.jpg)
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Topic locked by Dan for now, as little new ground is being covered and things are degenerating to a more personal level. After a week or so, I'll open things up again provided there are some fresh perspectives. Meanwhile, two maxims come to mind:
1) When at loggerheads, sometimes one has to agree to disagree.
2) A man (person) convinced again their will...remains unconvinced still.
The electrified bicycle debate has its analog in platform vs. clipless pedals, drop handlebars vs. straight, kickstand vs. Click- Stands vs. gravity, derailleur drivetrains vs. Rohloff, etc.
Plainly, these things are vital for some while others wouldn't even consider them. The real beauty of cycling is how it allows us each and all to get there in our own way, as proven just today on a long climb up from a ferry slip in Serbia. The pleasant fellow I spoke to on the short voyage was from Belgrade and on his first tour, using a city bike. I'm a reasonably accomplished cyclo-tourist in good condition with a deep mileage base riding top level purpose built equipment...and I don't mind saying Milos smoked me up the hill. What a talented climber! I really admire his natural ability and was so impressed. Just goes to show (to twist a phrase by Mark Twain): "You can't tell by looking how far a frog can jump!". True, that. Same holds true with how we all approach cycling. Thankfully, there's no one right way
Topic comes back open in a week.
All the best,
Dan.
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All unlocked. Let's try this again. :)
Rather than going down the "electric bikes are good/evil" route, let's focus more on how they work, the kind available, advancements in the technology, shortcomings, and how to keep the batteries charged on tour...that sort of thing so we can advance the topic and not get caught in a loop as before.
Plainly, these things aren't for everyone, but there loud of good technology to discuss as well as the practical means for implementation and installation as well as use.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hmm, 50kms in 1 hour equates to approximately 30mph which does sound like a moped type speed
and this would tend to mandate a license, a crash-helmet, insurance, vehicle excise duty, MOT, lights, indicators, etc
Just chipping in to point out that the original quote was "She uses her bike for a daily round-trip commute of 50 kms, about an hour in each direction", i.e. 25k or 15mph.
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Lots of mythology around these pedelecs, it seems ... I'm going to say Goodbye To All That & sign off for two months, leaving for Berlin this afternoon, then cycling in Denmark next week with our daughter, followed by a couple of weeks tout seul in Sweden and Germany--sure to be some e-bike sightings there, and well-mannered debate (!) Then a month of family holiday in Turkey. Back in mid-October, just in time for the autumn foliage/November rains :-( and to see what resolution we have on the e-question. Safe riding all.
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Have a great time!
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All the best to you, John. Safe wishes for fun and happy travels. Looking forward to hearing all about it on your return.
Dan.
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All unlocked. Let's try this again. :)
Rather than going down the "electric bikes are good/evil" route, let's focus more on how they work, the kind available, advancements in the technology, shortcomings, and how to keep the batteries charged on tour...that sort of thing so we can advance the topic and not get caught on a loop as before.
Plainly, these things aren't for everyone, but there loud of good technology to discuss as well as the practical means for implementation and installation as well as use.
All the best,
Dan.
As always the voice of reason speaks.
I was interested to hear Brian Robinson (first Brit to win a stage if the TDF) admit to riding an electric bike up the hills of Yorkshire at the age of 83. I'd like to ride an electric bike up the hills of Yorkshire when I'm 83. Or older. Younger would do as well.
I was sorry to hear he was knocked off by a car though.
When my electric Sherpa is finished (still waiting on the motor) I'll post details if it's of interest.
All the best Dan and hope you're still enjoying the coffee wherever you are right now.
ian
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Thanks so much for the good wishes, Ian. I'm currently 100m from the dark waters of the Black Sea here in Constanta, Romania, having made too-good time with some days close on a couple - hundred kilometers. Now I'm done with my planned tour... and left with three weeks before my flight.
Hmm. Maybe time for a little mountain work in the Carpathians, or a visit to Bram's castle?
I'll leave here in the morning. Constanta has been a bit anticlimactic and even disappointing after the largely rural nature of the greater Eurovelo6.
I...did fine on the hills marked as 9%-10% grades, but wouldn't have minded the occasional boost with my full touring load as they topped and occasionally doubled that.
By the way, Austria -- whose government has seen the economic rewards of embracing bicycle tourism on the EV6 and rewarded it with the best infrastructure -- can boast of ebike charging stations. Lots of people were riding ebike there, though the vast majority were locals instead of tourists. Seems to me a community infrastructure of public and work - supported charging stations might go far toward increasing the practical use of pedelecs for journeys beyond local.
On my outward/westward journey, I met a Swiss couple going the other way. He had sold two Rohloff-equipped bikes in favor of a Pinion with belt drive In a custom frame and seemed happy with it. He offered a test ride but tbe bicycle was dangerously too large for me to safely handle. He was a big guy, close to two meters tall. His much smaller wife said she wanted to accompany him but lacked the physical strength, so she was riding a pedelec which she recharged at reach night's lodging. It was the on-demand type which provided assistance only if she was pedaling.
In this way, two physically mismatched riders could enjoy the same ride... together. She carried a spare, pre-charged battery just in case, which seemed a wise move to me. "After all", she told me, "it allows us to double our distance if we wish or if the first lodging has no vacancy". She carried the spare battery in a dry sack atop her rear rack and said she took care to avoid getting the contacts wet on either battery.
She estimated she actually used the pedaling - assist about half the time, depending on factors such as hills or if her husband was setting a fast pace. She said the assist allowed her to keep a fast enough pace to beat some rain clouds on several occasions.
I'm not very familiar with this realm, but her bike appeared to be designed as a pedelec from the beginning, rather than a conversion. It also sported a control for selecting the amount of assist, which seemed useful. She said on flat roads she would often lock it out entirely or dial up just enough assist to take the edge off headwinds, which she found exhausting when using muscle power alone.
In this case, equipping the less accomplished rider with a pedelec opened up a whole world of companionable cycling and adventure for this married couple. Both agreed it had opened a new dimension of shared activities.
I'd surely be interested in details of your conversion, Ian.
All the best,
Dan. (...whose interest in the topic stems in part from a childhood spent racing electric slot cars...and rewinding the motors for greater speed)
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Safe journey home, Dan, after your splendid Euro-tour -- look forward to photos and text (had problems opening your blog, dunno why.)
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NY Times (a major newspaper in USA) had an article yesterday on electric bikes in Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/business/e-bike-sales-are-surging-in-europe.html?_r=0
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NY Times (a major newspaper in USA) had an article yesterday on electric bikes in Europe.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/business/e-bike-sales-are-surging-in-europe.html?_r=0
I attended an electric vehicle festival sponsored by our local university last weekend, helping a friend who is just opening a shop. He will offer several brands across a broad price range, from expensive but delectable Dutch-made Gazelles to agricultural and utilitarian Chinese-made EzeBikes.
One of his distributors is a young American chap, who was telling me that, on a recent trip to NYC, "e-bikes were everywhere". This, despite they're being illegal (as a bicycle).
My view is that this technology is a game-changer in transport, and will revolutionise commuting and traffic infrastructure, especially in Australia, where bicycle-specific infrastructure is coming from a relatively low base. This has to be a good thing for all of us treadlers, so I say "Bring it on!"
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Now there is a bike with a solid looking centre stand. ;)
Sorry messing about with the snipping tool I just found on windows 7 :-[
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Another take on the pedelec - Sinner Mango Sport Blue Edition
http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/index.php?threads/mango-sport-blue-edition-m-pedelec-antrieb.39125/
(Site is in German)
(http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/index.php?attachments/dsci0157-jpg.69471/)
(http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/index.php?attachments/dsci0168-jpg.69476/)
(http://www.velomobilforum.de/forum/index.php?attachments/dsci0174-jpg.69478/)
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Aw Pete...biggest Hebie Chainglider I've ever seen.
;)
All the best,
Dan.
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...
My view is that this technology is a game-changer in transport, and will revolutionise commuting and traffic infrastructure, especially in Australia, where bicycle-specific infrastructure is coming from a relatively low base. This has to be a good thing for all of us treadlers, so I say "Bring it on!"
Where I live I do not think electric bikes will be a game changer. Only part of the year is it reliable for commuting.
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(https://static-ssl.businessinsider.com/image/53f4e9bc69beddde1ef7d189-960/why%20buy%20an%20e-bike%20electric%20bicycle.jpg)
E-bike sales are booming in Europe (http://www.businessinsider.com.au/ebike-sales-booming-in-europe-2014-8) and it's not because of hoons or the cancelled-licence drunks, but people often new to cycling, getting a bit older, facing a more hilly/longer distance commute, or just a bit less confident/competitive.