Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: moodymac on January 15, 2014, 07:44:01 PM
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I have determined that the Club Tour is the bike for me. My first choice was the Raven Tour. However, how I have managed to turn a 1299 pound bike into almost 2000 pds is scary. Sorry for the pound thing but I don't appear to have its' symbol on my laptop.
The bike will be used as an all rounder, with touring being most in mind. No around the world stuff :( but perhaps some extensive (a few months at most) touring of U.S. and Canada (Mexico?). It will be my only bike. Mostly tarmac some dirt and a few trails.
The below list contains items, cost and some comments/questions. Feel free to comment on any items you wish, and don't worry about my feelings as I am seeking solid information. I will have to live (and probably die) with this bike.
Club Tour MK4 1299 pounds
Comfort Bar 0
Front Fork (#6 Super Tour, V Brake) 0
30 speed 26-36-48, 11-36 cassette 0
(a 24-36-44 seems more appropriate for my 65 years, however
I am not sure they will do this?)
Spokes (extra) 5
36 hole Hope rear disk hub 137
(the reviews I read on the Shimano hubs scared me)
36 hole Hope front hub 60
36 hole DT Swiss TK 540 rims 73
(think I heard a discouraging word from Andre about the Mavic
rims)
Dureme 700x35 tires 50
SKS P45 mudguards 0
Straight bar Rapid Fire Shifter specs. 0
(will this fit a comfort bar?)
Front V and rear mechanical disk brakes 71
San Marcos Rolls saddle 25
Pedals 50
Front and rear Thorn carriers 150
(thinking overly strong for my use, but better than maybe just
right)
Bottle cages (3) 21
Total 1941 pounds
Minus VAT 1552
Price U.S. 2539 dollars (a new roof)
Dan, if you read this any info on shipping cost to US would be greatly appreciated.
Tom
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Dan, if you read this any info on shipping cost to US would be greatly appreciated.
Hi Tom!
I'll be in touch soon with specifics. The press of business has me tied-up today, but will get to you. If I forget, please PM me.
First suggestion: When buying, if possible use a credit card that does not have conversion fees for foreign currencies. That can save as much as USD$76-$85 alone. A quick call to the customer service number on the reverse of your card will result in answers for your card.
Meantime, this thread related to my order of Sherpa should help: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3694.msg15739#msg15739 I would suggest *not* prepaying the total in advance as I chose to do to lock-in a price at a time of currency volatility. Do the deposit thing and then pay the balance when done. Nothing "bad" happened with my prepay, I just think the conventional approach is better.
Sounds like a wonderful spec overall for your new bike, and should prove a lovely bike for your needs. It will make a classic tourer with which I think you'll be very happy. Umm...let's see, real quick....oh! Before I bought Sherpa, I bought a Thorn Low-Loader front rack and fitted it to my Miyata 1000LT, a touring bike with 700C wheels. The results were stellar; very happy. It gave me confidence in the bike to come, figuring if the rack was that good, Thorn's bikes had to be everything everyone said they were. Thorn's back rack proved superb for my needs as well, and in my tests was more rigid than my Surly Nice Rack (Rear) and a later Tubus Logo Evo, thanks in part to the 6mm mount adapters on the Nomad, but the rack itself still worked nicely and was very rigid while briefly mounted on Sherpa before moving on to the Nomad.
More later,
Dan.
P.S. Sorry for the pound thing but I don't appear to have its' symbol on my laptop.
For a Windows PC, go here: Start> All Programs> Accessories> System Tools> Character Map. Fifth page, third row from the bottom you'll find ?. € lives there as well, and you'll have a ready source of ammo 'cos there's plenty of bullets (•).
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Thanks Dan,
Will be leaving Canada for Texas tomorrow, if I have not heard from you after arrival, will PM.
Tom
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Hi Tom!
'Found the particulars much more quickly than I thought, so here they are. From: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3694.msg18181#msg18181 I paid for my bike in full when I placed my order, to lock-in the price against fluctuations in the exchange rate (the US congress was deadlocked over a budget-funding bill at the time and the dollar was falling against the pound). In retrospect, I would not do this again. With the options selected and the exchange rate at the time, my Sherpa and shipping totaled USD$2,610.83. Of that, shipping accounted for USD$627 at the exchange rate in effect then. The foreign transaction fee added USD$78.32. The Tuffnells Customs Duty Invoice totaled USD$139.73, including a USD$15 handling service fee for TNT to clear and confirm the shipment with US Customs and another USD$15 whose code I cannot determine. So, for those who are curious, it cost USD$845.05 beyond the base price of the bike to get it to my front door. Total for everything, Sherpa delivered and with all debts settled was USD$2828.88.
Remember, these figures were based on the price of Sherpa at the time (2010), and on the relative currency valuations at time of payment as well. The figures won't be the same today, but this should give you a guide.
Be sure to keep all receipts and take screen shots for anything you order online so if there is a problem with Customs you can show what you expected to pay. I'm sure all will go well. I sweat bullets awaiting the bike. It went through four carriers in all, as I recall, finally showing up via UPS at the front door. Thorn/SJS Cycles has nothing to do with the carrier handoffs; this was the result of delivery agreements between the original shipper and delivery at my location in the US' Pacific Northwest.
Hope this helps. Exciting days, for sure, and all good wishes your way. Shout out if there's anything we can do to help.
All the best,
Dan.
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Tom,
Another opinion (I seem to be full of them but so is everyone else, so weigh as you wish for your own needs): As for gearing, I ran 44/32/22 and 12-36 (9-sp at the time) on Sherpa and was very happy with it. Spared my frangible knees on loaded climbs and the high was more than enough for me given I spin and that makes up for low gears speedwise.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi there Tom,
The Club Tour has a lot of good reviews on this Forum -- nice bike, and enjoy!
A couple of notes:
The £ thing: On my Mac, it's Option + 3
On ratios: 30 speed 26-36-48, 11-36 cassette (a 24-36-44 seems more appropriate for my 65 years...)
We're of a similar age and on my current touring bike I have a 24-36-48 front triple, mated to a 12 - 36 cogset at the rear via a 9-spd chain. Both F & R derailleurs are Deore. I use 700c wheels, and have been running 700 x 32 Vittoria Randonneur Pro (foldable) tires. This setup gives me a lowest gear-inch ratio of 18.3, which I find is pretty much OK, but there have been a few occasions where I would have liked a lower cog. (E.g., climbing a grade in the 14-15% range on a loaded bike.) So, on my Thorn Raven-with-Rohloff now a-building, I will use a 38 x 17 setup, giving me a couple of gears below the 18.3 on my current bike.
Following Dan's reference to his 22-32-44, suggest you consider a 24T small chainring, or even a 22T, depending on the hills you expect to meet and/or loads you expect to carry. (To use a specific example: The Gaspé Peninsula in Quebec is a wonderful spot for cycling. I would enjoy it much more with a 22T small ring than with a 24T or a 26T, however.) I find that the 36T is *very* useful. When I ride unloaded, I usually spend about 90% of my time on that ring, and loaded, maybe 20%, depending of course on the terrain. With my current setup, my base gear is the 6th or 7th cog (unloaded) or the 5th cog loaded. So, if it were my bike, I'd use a 36T middle ring rather than the 32T or even a 34. When my bike is loaded, BTW, I rarely if ever use the big 48T ring.
Suggest also you use higher-end Shimano derailleurs than the standard Deore, perhaps XTs.
Hope this is helpful, Tom, and good luck! Safe journey back to Texas.
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Thanks Dan,
I found it...£££ ;D.
I think I will go for the 22 inner ring and contemplate the middle one more. I got a lot out of the post you referenced. Especially the one inferring you could buy in the States due to the choices. I liked your answer because that is the way I feel regarding the people on this forum and at Thorn. I also got the feeling that U.S. builders still incorporate too much racing paraphernalia and ideas into their touring schemes. Any more ideas, feel free.
Tom
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Straight bar Rapid Fire Shifter specs. 0
(will this fit a comfort bar?)
Hi Tom
On my old bike I used Rapid Fire Shifters on an NC-17 Trekking Pro Bar:
http://www.nc-17.de/en/products/handlebars/trek-bar-pro-en/ (http://www.nc-17.de/en/products/handlebars/trek-bar-pro-en/)
It looks very similar to a Thorn Comfort Bar so would expect them to fit ok.
Another option regarding the complete bike would be to buy the frame and build it yourself from components sourced closer to home. You'd be in control of the complete spec that way and possibly save money.
For what it's worth; I built up my CT with DT Swiss TK540's ( made by Dave Hunt at DCR) 36H Rear and 32H Front, these were paired with XT Hubs and Sapim Race spokes with Sapim Strong on the drive side, early days yet but so far I'm more than happy with them.
Chris
(Can't get the quote option to work properly, sorry)
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Thanks John,
Will definitely look into the XT derailleurs. The brochure that Thorn has post is not the definitive one yet. So I have probably overlooked some things. Anything else you see, please mention.
Just to get to my house from any direction there is this hill. A long 8-9% grade and several shorter ones that are 12-20%. I am just lucky to be living on the only hill in town! The cassette's gearing is quite broad, I am going to have to give that middle chain ring some thought. I have a feeling that you are a much stronger cyclist than me. The Vittoria Randonneur tires have always peaked my interest and if Thorn sold them they would be my choice.
By the way, found your name in CGOAB just before retiring last night. Will have to dig around in there to see what you have written. From the occasional comments I have read on this forum, you must be quite an accomplished cyclist. Any other thoughts or opinions on my post would be greatly appreciated.
Tom
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Chris,
Thanks for the heads up on the Rapid Fire Shifter and Comfort bar.
While being fairly mechanically inclined, and having way too many tools (wife's opinion), I just don't have the time right now. I am on the road quite a bit now (have to pay for this bike!) and my honey do list is growing while I type. When I am running hard, the honey do list takes more time to do than I have at home. Hopefully this will slow down soon. In the meantime the bike can be delivered and all I will have to do is assemble it and listen to a few tsc, tsc's coming from my beautiful wife.
Like what you said about the DT Swiss rims. My thinking was with these, the Hope hub, and the rear disk brake that wheel should last a very long time.
Thanks again and let me know about the rims.
Tom
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Like what you said about the DT Swiss rims. My thinking was with these, the Hope hub, and the rear disk brake that wheel should last a very long time.
Hi Tom
I got a pair of wheels in 2013 with Hope hubs and DT Swiss rims, they are very strong and lightweight, I don't think you can go wrong with that combination.
The Hope hubs do make a ratchety noise when coasting which some people apparently don't like, personally I think it is the beautiful noise of quality.
Exciting times for you Tom, enjoy.
Jim
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Hi Jim,
Thanks for the info. I had heard about the noise. I am hard of hearing anyway! ;)
Love the avatar.
Tom
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Thanks, Tom, for your kind words. Not too sure how "accomplished" a cyclist I am, but I love life on 2 wheels & will endorse your judgment any day. :-)
Just to get to my house from any direction there is this hill. A long 8-9% grade and several shorter ones that are 12-20%. I am just lucky to be living on the only hill in town!
Wow -- lots of work there! The 22T small ring would certainly help with those, as well as the 36T low cog at the back.
As I read your list of specs, Tom, it seems well-considered, and there's good advice already on your thread. So, not sure I have much to add beside my comments on the ratios and the tires.
Perhaps an additional thought on the Vittorias: I've used the 700 x 32s for the past two-plus years (three summers) and like them a lot. If I were to continue using my current bike for loaded touring, I'd probably go with 700 x 35s or 37s, partly for more comfort on rough tarmac, and partly to deal with gravel roads.
Cheers,
J.
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Hi John,
Thanks again for the comments.
My thoughts on the 35s were due to local road conditions (concrete slab, poor asphalt, tar and chip, and even bricks). That and the nephew likes to ride dirt on occasion. I would have gone for 37s, however the pump fittings on the frame are too close to the tire to allow them and the pump. I first became interested in the Vittorias through a post be either Pete, or el padrone(?). Not only had he obtained great milage, he posted a photo of a fantastic screw protruding from one (and no flat!). They will be my second set of tires.
Tom
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36 hole DT Swiss TK 540 rims 73
(think I heard a discouraging word from Andre about the Mavic
rims)
On another forum I'm just now engaged in correspondence with James Stewart of Melbourne, who writes:
***
Speaking of wearing off at the first application of the brakes, I have
finally damaged one of my two Mavic OpenPro Ceramic rims. I suspect the
real damage occurred a few months ago when I had a minor altercation
with a car driver and his car, that left my front wheel a little
buckled, but I managed to true it up. Upon inspection on Saturday I
noticed a good crack and piece separating from around one of the spoke
holes.
I think this rim made up the rear wheel of a pair I bought some 12+
years ago. It's probably seen more abuse than the original front that
is now a part of my SP dynamo front wheel.
Needless to say, the ceramic braking surface is *still* just dandy. No
appreciable wear to speak of, after a good 100,000+km.
Such a shame no other rim manufacturer has done it and Mavic stopped
doing it. If I could buy another pair of these rims I would in a heart
beat. I don't think Mavic's current Exalith coating is as good, from
what I've read, nor is it available on rims not built into Mavic wheels.
***
That's contrary evidence from a reliable, high mileage cyclist.
All the same, DT Swiss strike me as a safer choice, even if you never intend leaving the tarmac. Attitude and outlook are important determinants of engineering outcomes, and the Mavic outlook is too closely focused on racing for my liking. Remind me on a dull day, when your bike is built, to tell the story of a supposedly sybaritic Trek for the middle-aged hedonist I once bought, and how Trek's designer, because of the company ethos, bolloxed it from the beginning.
If you can fit wider mudguards, you should. 5mm overhang per side is marginal, even with properly shaped mudguards like the SKS P series. Also, some of those P series have a choice of lengths: make sure you get the longer one, not the short "sports" version. You'll understand why I seem to fixate on a couple of minor details when the first heavy rains fall. At our age you don't want to magnify the miseries of the wet by having water sprayed on your shins, and especially on your expensive drivetrain. Make sure the mudguards have SKS mud flaps, little worthless-appearing things, but they do direct the water downwards. Thorn may just fit them and sink the charge in the general price, or you may have to order them. They're customized to the P series, so getting them later will cost plenty in carriage and nuisance.
[I see in a message that crossed with this one that you've considered this already, but I'll leave it as general comment for others.] Also, is 35mm the widest tyre you can fit, or is it a compromise with some hoped-for "speed"? I am very impressed with the benefits of fitting the widest tyres your bike will take, since I switched to low pressure balloons a few years ago. You can always slim down too much bike and sell the surplus parts on, but building up not enough bike is more difficult and expensive.
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Thanks Andre (much needed advise),
and the Mavic outlook is too closely focused on racing for my liking
I remembered reading a side note in a post of yours stating (loosely) that Mavik rims and touring bike should not be mixed. Hence the DT Swiss, thanks.
Remind me on a dull day, when your bike is built, to tell the story of a supposedly sybaritic Trek for the middle-aged hedonist I once bought, and how Trek's designer, because of the company ethos, bolloxed it from the beginning.
I will hold you to that! But first I must get the dictionary out. Seems like I do that a lot when reading you. Again thanks.
If you can fit wider mudguards, you should
The P45 was the largest Thorn listed in their first draft catalog, I have made a note to question them about this. The largest tire that can be fitted is 700x40 and still fit mudguards. This is with Supreme like tread. I too like me and gear to stay dry and clean, I plan on installing the mud flaps that Dan and JimK are using.
[I see in a message that crossed with this one that you've considered this already, but I'll leave it as general comment for others.] Also, is 35mm the widest tyre you can fit, or is it a compromise with some hoped-for "speed"? I am very impressed with the benefits of fitting the widest tyres your bike will take, since I switched to low pressure balloons a few years ago. You can always slim down too much bike and sell the surplus parts on, but building up not enough bike is more difficult and expensive.
Comfort over speed is my thing! The thing with the 35s was the pump carrier fittings interfering with the pump with wider tires. I would carry the thing elsewhere for more comfort.
Something that I want to ask you in particular about: What do you think of the San Marco Rolls saddle? I have heard good things about them, but never sat on one. I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks. I considered getting a twice sprung Brooks that claims to be pre-broken, but have never heard of anyone using it.
http://www.brookssaddles.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+%26+trekking/Flyer+S+Aged/
Thanks again Andre,
Tom
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'Coupla things in your last note pop out at me, Tom, so here we go:
Comfort over speed is my thing!
Thudbuster LT (if vertical space allows) or Thudbuster ST (if vertical space is tight).I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks.
Unfortunately (for people like me) B.17 saddles have become markedly quicker to break-in these days. I miss the Old Days™ when they really did require breaking-in. I had one go uncomfortably soft for my preferences well within 300mi. In other words, breaking-in a B.17 is no longer the task it once was. This may -- or may not -- hold true for other Brooks models.
Yes, Buddy Flaps are marvelous.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
You must be reading my mind! I wanted to ask you if it would be better to buy and install the Thudbuster here or have it installed at Thorn.
Also, have read the entire article you kindly referenced regarding the purchasing and shipping of your Sherpa.
A couple of questions:
How did you manage to get a Sherpa for just about the same price as I am getting the entry level Club Tour for?
Do you think I am over building the bike?
The shipping cost were shocking. I was stupidly thinking 3 or 400 dollars. And did not think of import fees at all!
I did not consider the Raven Tour due to the Rholoff cost being over half the cost of the bike. To learn the shipping and customs fees are almost half the cost of the bike is not good. This is going to be a very hard sell to the wife and take a little longer than I wanted (more funds needed now). But, I going to give it a go.
Your insight always valued, thanks,
Tom
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Got to get down to Medicine Hat, AB for an early pick up of a load now going to Lafayette, La. Have to be there the morning of the 20Th, so I wont be on line until then.
Will answer any question that come my way. Will read all comments (much valued and needed).
Till then,
Tom
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Hi again Tom,
A few more thoughts on costs for your bike. Re-reading the thread, I understand that you have not yet purchased the bike. If not, then let me suggest the following from my recent experience with a Rohloff & Raven:
1) Work through the bike you want, i.e., a Club Tour with your specs;
2) Then, get a pro-forma invoice from Thorn, for the built-up bike plus shipping to Tx. Thorn's price will exclude the UK's 20% sales tax (VAT). Then,
3) Check US Customs for the duty on the built-up bike, and add any local taxes such as sales tax. This should give you the whole price. (Use a conservative exchange rate -- credit-card companies always charge a 2 - 3 % above the listed foreign-exchange rates.)
I did this for a complete Raven + Rohloff, and found that the combination of shipping costs, the depreciation of the Cdn $ against the £, and 13% import duty on complete bikes, plus another 13% sales tax on the cost of the bike + duty, was prohibitive.
(I had some other reservations, too -- wanted to do the final sizing of my bike here, and wanted to get the same nice VO Grand Cru handlebars which I now use, but which SJSC doesn't sell.)
So, I did what Thorn buyers/riders in Australia & NZ often do: Buy the frameset & forks from Thorn, and the Rohloff & SON hubs from German suppliers; source other components here or in the US, and have my LBS do the build. Going this route, I paid much less for shipping; no import duty; and (hard to believe!) reduced sales tax here, because the gvt chose not to levy sales tax on some small shipments. Also, the German hubs were much cheaper when purchased through online suppliers in Deutschland. I chose to go this route because I have confidence in my LBS -- they sell their own frame for an IGH, for example, and often install Shimano or rohloff hubs. (I didn't buy their frame because it's not available with 26" wheels.)
When all is said and done, my made-there-built-up-here Raven will cost me about C$4,000. Had I bought the same bike complete from Thorn, the price would have been more than C$5500, close to custom-bike territory. (Maybe closer to $6000, because the C$ has lost 15% against the £ since last March.)
So, I'd suggest taking your same Club Tour specs, and:
1) cost out the purchase of a frameset and forks, plus any special items you can get only at SJSC;
2) get a pro-forma invoice for those items, plus shipping (my shipment of frameset, forks, and some spares, for example, came to £73 -- about C$120 at the time)
3) get an estimate of any duty on these bike parts -- in Canada, there is 0% duty on parts, some distance from the 13% for a full bike, or 6.5% for built-up wheels
4) get an estimate of remaining parts, plus build-up labour, from a bike shop you trust.
One has to do the arithmetic on these ventures -- I was very surprised by the difference between my two estimates. (The two big influences, the 13% import duty, and the 15% depreciation of the C$, came into play from April 2013 onwards.)
Hope this is helpful, Tom.
J.
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How did you manage to get a Sherpa for just about the same price as I am getting the entry level Club Tour for?
Hi Tom! There are several factors in all this. First, I purchased Sherpa in Summer 2011, when prices were lower. Also, the exchange rates were a bit different as well. Component costs were a little less as well.
One of the big differences in cost is I went for basic Deore spec on the derailleurs, crankset, hub (rear, SON28 Klassik for the front) and brakes, with the high-value deal Thorn offers on the B.17 by kindly passing on its OEM supplier discount to buyers of complete bikes.
I have always found Shimano's mid-level offerings to be a terrific value and I was not disappointed in my choice except for the external BB bearings, which are a known problem due to the design and materials and sealing. I was pleased enough with my choices on Sherpa to duplicate them as much as possible on the Nomad (laying-in a Phil Wood BB for when the original went bad, which it did). The standard Deore kit also meant a lower theft profile 'cos it lacked the cachet of XT or XTR even if it had much of the functionality. I also had good luck with the double-pivot and single-pivot "Shadow"-series Deore rear derailleurs working smoothly and reliably for my needs.
Thorn's basic spec results in a proven and serviceable complete bicycle of good value.
I also went for the basic build in Sherpa. I had the front Thorn Low-Loader Mk V racks I'd used on the Miyata, and I moved the Surly Nice Rack (Rear) over as well, so no rack costs compared to your spec. I supplied my own preferred bottle cages (Minoura nylon) rather than the Profile cages Andy Blance likes. V-brakes front and rear saved over the cost of a rear caliper/disc combo (unavailable on the Mk2 Sherpa). The only off-list option I went for was the M:Part carbon chainstay protector, which I liked very much but requires a zip-tie to secure as well as the adhesive. As I was advised, any items bought off-spec are at regular SJS Cycles' prices. I think this is fair, 'cos these items are pulled from regular stock and do not carry the same OEM builder "package" prices as the options offered on the Thorn build sheet. I think you could shave ?437/$715 off the cost of your spec by going more basic (wheels, tires, saddle, brakes) and so offset the shipping costs while keeping the whole-bike warranty. You'd still have a corker of a bike, but would it be still your Dream Bike? Only you can answer that. Replacing parts through attrition would allow you to get there eventually, but at higher cost.
As John has answered very nicely while I have been typing this between work calls -- be sure to spec the prices on *everything* before making your decision. I used the same approach I do when shopping on eBay: Base price + shipping + other costs = item cost = buy /or/ not.
Buying a Thorn from offshore is always going to be more expensive than it would be for a UK resident, thanks to shipping, customs, and credit card conversion fees (depending on card used) -- and being on the wrong side of the current exchange rate. There is no opportunity to try the bike and return it, as there would be for a domestic (UK) buyer, and there are no test-rides or look-sees possible. Offsetting that is a great depth of user experience that is overwhelmingly positive, a helpful and pleasant user forum ("buy a bike, get a community for free!"), and the knowledge that Thorn really does stand behind their products, unlike many other makers who find a way 'round warranty coverage. Every once in awhile a flaw of some sort will enter *any* manufacturing process, and when it is an expensive item, the maker's willingness to honor their word is Gold. Thorn surely came through for me, confirming the rightness of my purchasing decision.
Contrast that to a friend who has had problems with three custom-built frames in a row made by various respected builders, resulting in whole-bike purchases costing around USD$8,000 each. One was made with the wrong fork; the maker sent her a replacement pulled from another bike and painted to match so poorly the old color shows through in places. Another was made with so little chainstay clearance, she cannot use the chain on the smallest cassette cog without sawing into the 'stay. The third bike does not have the specified geometry. She has decided to keep all three and learn to accommodate their shortcomings.
There's another important thing that separates Thorn bikes from others in a very positive way: Designer Andy Blance actually rides and tours, and has done so for many years. He designs what he rides and rides what he designs, and has a personal investment in making things Work. as mentioned in an earlier thread referenced above, I had a choice of brands and builders locally, but found nothing that suited my needs as well as Thorn, and in the end I'm glad I made the decision to go with them, but it was a stretch for me financially. I buy new bicycles when there is a gap in meeting my needs (expedition tourer in this case), but carefully selecting quality machines means they also last a long time, and I still have and regularly ride some purchased decades ago. I viewed a Thorn as a long-term investment, intending to keep mine for the next 20 years. Yes, they're "worth it". Though the cost can be dear, it can be a long-term investment.
Good topic, with the same questions many of us face in contemplating a purchase. Be sure to check every listing in Thorn's FAQ as well; it is very complete in answering a number of questions for new buyers: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/faq.html The Downlads page has a copy of the owner's manual and warranty, rack fitting instructions, and more: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/downloads.html
All the best,
Dan.
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There's another important thing that separates Thorn bikes from others in a very positive way: Designer Andy Balance actually rides and tours, and has done so for many years. He designs what he rides and rides what he designs, and has a personal investment in making things Work.
Dan, this is 100% exactly the reason I went for the Nomad MK2 way down here in New Zealand.
I did what Thorn buyers/riders in Australia & NZ often do: Buy the frameset & forks from Thorn, and the Rohloff & SON hubs from German suppliers
Here's another vote for John Saxby's suggestion - did exactly the same myself recently and have ended up with an excellent Thorn bicycle here in New Zealand.
Tony
NZ
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Something that I want to ask you in particular about: What do you think of the San Marco Rolls saddle? I have heard good things about them, but never sat on one.
I've never sat on one either, but there's bound to be someone here who has one, or at least ridden on someone else's. The Rolls was mentioned approvingly in the Saddles thread not too long ago.
I really don't like the idea of breaking in a Brooks. I considered getting a twice sprung Brooks that claims to be pre-broken, but have never heard of anyone using it.
http://www.brookssaddles.com/catalogue-and-shop/saddles/touring+%26+trekking/Flyer+S+Aged/
I ride the B73, which is a B66 with a helical spring at each corner instead of just the back corners. I chose it because the B73 has the reputation of being the most comfortable Brooks saddle for upright riders (short of the super-comfortable but super-heavy B190) and being the most comfortable straight out of the box bar none. On the downside some say the front spring causes it to be not as directionally stable as the B66; rubbish, that spring is too hard to sway even under my 200 pounds. When new I soaked my B73 in neatsfoot oil for 20m for two reasons: to soak in protection against rain to the depth of light scratches, and to color the honey of the leather a custom tan that nobody else has. That isn't enough time in the neatsfoot to soften it, as some feared. Once or twice a year I rub the saddle over lightly with Brooks' own goop, called Proofide. I keep it from getting wet by covering it with a Brooks waxed cover when I leave it and rain is expected. The B73 didn't need breaking in, and after over 10,000km has only been tensioned perhaps three times, so I think if were to need break-in, it would have broken in by now. In any event, what you really want to know is, how painful was my first ride and my first six months with the Brooks B73. The short answer is, not at all. I sat on that Brooks, my butt bonded with it, and I will fight to keep it. You might also be interested to know that the highly regarded gel saddles I had before were all harder than the Brooks was straight out of the box. I fully concur with Dan's experience, except that where he moans about "too little break-in", I would say, "Choose the right Brooks, get zero break-in, enjoy the ride."
If you're going to spend San Marco Rolls money, I would suggest that you try a Brooks of at least the B66 width first. After my experience with the B73, I wouldn't buy a pre-aged saddle. I don't think the pre-aging is necessary, and it may compromise the longevity of the saddle.
If you plan to go Dan's route, with the Thudbuster, buy the least-sprung Brooks you can find in the right width (and check the vertical space your particular bike very carefully indeed -- probably be smart and a cost saving to buy the Thudbuster Stateside). None of the B17's, beloved of the roadie/fast touring/drop handle crowd, are suitable for riders who expect to stay seated most or all of the time* and in an upright position at that. I also suspect that the B17, because it is narrower, has to be made of stiffer/harder leather, which accounts for it's reputation for needing substantial break-in.
So, to summarize, for a cyclist over 50, interested in comfort, specifying a bike on which he will sit upright or semi-upright, I would suggest a Brooks of B66 width or wider, preferably sprung, and not the pre-aged because you might love the standard Brooks out of the box, and if you don't you can gimmick it right with by soaking it in your choice of oil (including motor oil, often used before a Brooks saddle became a "luxury saddle", an item of veneration). My personal Brooks comfort fave is the B73 but it comes with a weight penalty (still, it weighs less than a plainer Brooks plus a Thudbuster).
* My Utopia Kranich, known as the Rolls-Royce of Circumnagivators, a tourer with a 170kg rating, for instance is specifically designed for the cyclist never to rise out of the saddle except for a slight post (a momentary lift out of the saddle) over really bad potholes. It is one of the thoroughly thought-out corollaries of a bike designed from the ground up around Big Apple tyres and the Rohloff gearbox (the first 100 Rohloff boxes were bought by Utopia). It works.
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Opinions on saddles are sooooo subjective that I'm reluctant to comment but here goes:
I have 3 Brooks B17(N) saddles and 2 San Marco Rolls.
The Brooks is more comfortable after about 6 hours but on rides shorter than that there is very little in it.
My newest Brooks was broken in after relatively few kilometres and I have since punched some holes in the sides and laced it to restore some firmness and support. It is very comfortable as a result of that.
My oldest one, bought in 2006 is still comfortable and I've not had to adjust it at all.
The Rolls is great value and requires almost no maintenance other than keeping it clean.
I bought my Club Tour online and picked it up at SJS then brought it back to Australia as checked baggage at no extra air fare. It's almost worth investigating that option rather than paying for shipping. You get to see/feel/ride the bike and (in Australia, anyway) avoid paying import duty because you're just bringing your used bike home. (and you get the VAT refunded about a month after you arrive.)
Cheers,
pj
pj
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Hi Tom
Try this currency converter for real time exchange rates. http://www.oanda.com/currency/converter/ It also allows you to factor in card exchange charges. (Nearly always 3%). It also shows the last 90 days exchange rate graph which helps to time a purchase.
When I buy stuff from Germany the figures I get on Oanda are within a penny or two of what actually comes out of the bank.
I would support the buy here build there philosophy expounded above. It even works handsomely for me living in the UK! If you build the bike yourself you'll know how to mend it on tour.
I would also second Dan (and Andre in other threads!!) on the Deore spec. argument. Deore really is made up to a standard with considerable economies of scale. Everything above this is gold plating/consumerism gone wild. I speak as a recovering addict..... The only part in Thorn basic specs that I don't like is the seatpin with it's notchy adjustment.
+1 on the Brooks are softer than they used to be. If you like a hard one these days you need to buy the B17 Champion Special....tapping it is like knocking on wood, the other tops have no resonance at all.
My 2 cents. But if you get Thorn frame the rest is just detail.
Happy days
Ian
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I would also second Dan (and Andre in other threads!!) on the Deore spec. argument. Deore really is made up to a standard with considerable economies of scale. Everything above this is gold plating/consumerism gone wild.
Ha! I actually wrote a post for this thread saying, "Any component that costs more than Deore has to justify its inclusion," but scrapped it as perhaps not to the point for Tom, specifying the bike of a lifetime, and with high carriage charges being the real sticking point rather than deluxe components.
I like the suggestion of minimizing carriage charges and import duties, and the overall cost, by buying only a frame, with perhaps a bottom bracket and headset already fitted, after which the rest is a meccano job any competent cyclist can manage with a modest toolkit by simply taking his time to do every job right before moving on to the next. I don't think Tom needs to pay his LBS for more than a final roadworthiness check, or perhaps final adjustment of his derailleurs. But this sort of thing needs, as John Saxby says, to be very carefully calculated, including all costs specified (not just "and ten per cent for postage") if it is not to go wrong. I've done this exercise several times and each time the multiple postage charges between Germany and Ireland made it a dicey proposition, so that I bought the complete bike instead and replaced components I didn't want later. However, in Tom's case there may be a considerable advantage as components are so much cheaper in the States and carriage charges are low or often nil.
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Carriage or components, it's all cash Tom has to pay out! Moreso if there are % import duties on invoice total.
In my mitigation for the specification charge m'lud, 'e did say 'e 'ad 'eard bad fings about Deore 'ubs and was going to raid a Lancashire boutique instead. I was made aware of the forum case law and your zeal for this area of retail reform by my QC yer 'onour.
I've always thought of LBS "roadworthiness checks" as a euphemism for "I'm ducking the responsibility for my handiwork." I wonder what LBSs think of this proposition?
(Educated voice);What? we take on and underwrite all liability for all the visible and invisible 3rd party work and component choice/compatibility and get almost no commercial return,
OR
(Villain voice like Bob 'oskins); Blimey! What a mug. Bounce it on the floor and stick back on anything that falls off and bill the geezer fifty quid....
OR
(Terry Thomas voice):We need a caveat! The vehicle was roadworthy "at the time of the test" therefore our liability stretches just past the front door...
Dodgy days
Ian
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I keep thinking about all the replies Tom will have stacked-up on his return the morning of the 20th. :D
Best,
Dan.
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Offsetting that is a great depth of user experience that is overwhelmingly positive, a helpful and pleasant user forum ("buy a bike, get a community for free!"), and the knowledge that Thorn really does stand behind their products
Had to peek. I am running just a little behind due to minor paper glitch in border crossing so will get back in detail later. A most profound statement (above quote) that kept coming back to me when I was thinking that I would have to settle for a Surly (nice bike, but not up to Thorn standards, and certainly not a forum with the caliper of people found here). Quickly reading through: You people have found ways to save me one heck of a lot of money, and allowed me to get what I really want. It is amazing what several great minds can do compared to one rather dull one! What I thought might not be wisely doable, now seems to be the thing to do.
Can't say thanks enough,
Tom
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US customs duty is 5.5% on a bike with 700c wheels, and 11% on a bike with 26" wheels. I believe frames are dutied at 3.9%.
When I bought my Nomad Mk2, customs worked out to be ~$600USD and shipping $400USD. If I were doing it again, I'd buy the frame from Thorn, along with anything not locally available, such as the Thorn racks, and have it built up by a local shop.