Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Member's Gallery => Topic started by: frog on June 08, 2006, 08:38:07 PM
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Announcing the birth of a new Raven Tour. Rider and bike are doing well (though Mrs frog is having a case of the 'tuts and rolling eyes' which I hope she'll get over soon . . .
http://uk.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/b8200694/album?.dir=/3344re2&.src=ph
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looks good.
What size is that? It looks as stretched out as mine.
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Hi PH,
Frame is a 587L. I must admit I'm really taken with it. You know how some things just look 'right'.
The set up of the bike is fantasticly accurate for me. Apart from straightening the steering it was ready to go. I took a cm off the saddle height because it look really tall against my other bike but I'd forgot to take into account the amount of travel the suspension seat post would have with my weight. I'll be putting the cm back later today [:I].
It's years since I rode a straight bar cycle for any distance and the open arms posture takes some getting used too, as does the more upright stance. It's just a question of stengthening the right muscles over the next few months and all will be fine. Used it for the commute on Friday and only an extra 2 mins on the each way times. I'm up and down the gears seeking the most beneficial gear along the route, I must be changing literally hundreds of times more per trip that I did with derailleurs - but it's so easier to do!
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That is the same size as mine, I thought I recognised the amount of air between front wheel and downtube. My commute time also went up when I first got it, never as much as the hour a week I was saving on cleaning and maintenance. It soon came down to about the same time once I got used to it. It's surprising how much a gearing system changes the way you ride. I was out on my derailleur bike today, for the first time in ages, I kept getting caught out on hills and Junctions. It felt fast but the ave speed on the computer is almost the same as when I did the same route on the Raven.
Those bits of time you lose with a derailleur changing gear, waiting for an appropriate time to change and changing ahead of junctions soon adds up.
my bike (http://"http://static.flickr.com/5/4622611_8e33a9fdf0.jpg?v=0")
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I must admit I'm really impressed with your bike. You posted a pic of it on C+ a couple of weeks ago and I very nearly went for the red rather than green.
Had my first experience of the 'Rohloff Moment' this morning. Oldish bloke overtook me quite slowly staring intently at the rear wheel and you can see the question forming in his head. 'Just where are the cogs?'. He managed to straighten up just before he hit the curb [:D].
I'll have to think up a suitable reply if the question every gets answered. Something like: 'It's a bit like a woman, all the really interesting bits are inside - and it takes practice to get the most out it them.' Or. 'How many gear does it have? Well, to be honest I can't really remember was it 10 or was it 14. Feeling lucky punk?'
I'm having quite a bit of success with a HRM to control my weight, and therefore my BP, so there has to be a certain amount of anticipation/lag in timing the gear changes. This was a nightmare with derailleurs because once the HR had started to rise it was almost impossible to spin at a rate which would allow it to stabilise before it went ballistic. Once I had ridden for about 3 hours any increase in output would sent it miles above a rate which was any value to me in the way of exercise.
Because the gears are so close together, and there is much more in the lower end, I'm looking at a lower average HR for the trip and a smaller max. The ability to try intermediate changes, albeit for a few crank cycles, lessens the output and makes the HR increase easier to control. This mornings ride was over a course I usually get over to within +/- two minutes on a 36 mile course. HR varies accordingly to state of health and weather but I can predict the max and average to within +/- 5pm. Today I was almost 15 bpm under the average and 16 under the usual peak, all for an extra 5 mins on the bike. These are figures I can get very used too indeed!!! [:D]
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Of course this all sounds very smug-which you are. BUT........how about Drop bars which real riders use? No, I do not mean with dafty little side bar rotational controls. I mean real drop bars with good controls. Oh! And real gears that you can select. Not one by one heavy old rear hub gears. I own at least two Thorn bikes....................
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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John, show a bit of mercy please! You must be a close relative of a colleague I have at work who is currently training for a trip to the Alps to try to beat his best time up one of the tour climbs. He saw my Raven for the first time today and there was no holding back.
'I tried to follow you up the lane this morning but kept falling off as you were going so slow.'
'Like the tyres - reminds me of my first bike when I was five with the balloon tyres.'
'I thought John Deere tractors had yellow wheels.'
'Flat bars! Flat bars! God help me if any of my friends see me talking to you. Can you walk a few paces behind me and try to hang your head in shame as if you mean it!'
'Carbon bar-ends! You have to be joking! Just how much weight do you think you've saved?'
'If you sit anymore upright people will start throwing dog biscuits at you.'
In my defence I did give an awful lot of thought to having drops but the perpetual taking the hand off and changing gear takes me back 30 years to my old Styr Puch road bike with the changer on the stem. No, I think if you want to embrace a new technology then you have to do it with both hands. I see this as the future of cycling, at least for me and lots of people like me.
I like the bikes - good engineering is a work of art!
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[bNo worries! At least you have a sense of humour? I apprecioate the Thorn bikes obviously as I own 2 at present (was 3). I admit the comfort is great. The design is great. The cost is GRET! The only worry is that I may end up all alone without--a---ROHLOFF....Rohloff = 'No real character'....b)
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july][/b]
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Hi John,
(quotes:)
Drop bars which real riders use
Rohloff = 'No real character'
You seam to like real things John. So here is a REAL character - Heinz Stücke (http://"http://www.bikechina.com/ct-heinzstucke1z.html"). The worlds most travelled man (by bicycle).
I guess you are going to have educate my Stücke though - he uses a FLAT handlebar and a HUB gear no less! Poor guy, you would think that after travelling around the world 10 times by bicycle he would know a thing or two but no, he is complete ignorant of what is real.
I am with you John, I am sure you know best. We shouldn't have to put up with non-real cyclists should we, especially as they make up 9/10 of the entire cyclist in the UK. Get rid of the lot I say. There will be far more room on the cycle paths for one. (Esp. as we won’t be using them either, real cyclists don’t use them.)
Stutho
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I am very interested in the effect that a Raven Sport Tour has had on my wife. Never in a million years did I expect a 400k four day tour when shae bought it in March but this is what has happened. If you just want to ride a pretty sorted touring machine then this is what you get.
I can't imagine not riding a fixed, riding a racing machine fast, riding a bike 'off road' but my wife can't see any reason whatsoever to do the above so Thorns are as they say here in the north east, 'lush'.
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Hi John,
quote:
how about Drop bars which real riders use?
John lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance [:D]
I did get my own back on my colleague when I found out that one of the 'hills' he's been training on for the Alps was Ivinghoe Beacon. My comment of 'Surely, the ramp onto the car ferry at Dover is a steeper and longer climb than that?' drew blood.
Despite his entrenched addiction to carbon and speed he did, very grudgingly, admit to a mutual friend in an e-mail that the Raven is a really nice bike and 'looks the business'. As we're the same height and build I'm waiting for the day when he asks for a test ride around the works yard. I don't think I'll have to wait long. [;)]
Still in the light-hearted vein John, have you had a go on a bike with a Rohloff hub? I thought I was a dyed in the wool drop bars and derailleur man as well. The test ride I had at the London Bike Show in 2004 made me really look again at what was on offer. Two years later, 12,000 miles, 3 cassettes, 4 chains, 2 triple chainsets on the junk heap I started to wonder just what I was spending my money on - and was I getting a decent return on it?
As you can see from hsps1, the Raven, and Rohloff, bring out some unexpected qualties in people you thought you knew very well [:D]
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Hello all above,
It was intended very light heartedly and seems to have been taken that way---more or less!!
Anyhow in response, I have ridden Rohloff equiped bike. I have seen a number at SJSC showroom. I have a real feeling that the system is good. I suspect one day I may even own a suitably fitted bike.
BUT!!!! Its heavy in one place only (the bike) and thats the rear end which carries all or most of the luggage load. It does not feel the same as a conventional system of course. I like drop bars. I admit that riding with upright or straight bars has advantages at many times. Problem I have with it all, is tradition. I suspect that I am starting to get old (56 next month!!!! Urg!!!!!!!!!).
Anyhow all in all this has been a good read.
Bye for now, I am out today for a nice ride on..........my Thorn Audax 853.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Don't worry, john28july - I've coped with 7 months of being 56, it's not so bad. I got a new bike for my last birthday - it's called a Club Tour. It doesn't come in the 'Stealth' colour scheme, but as far as the Thorn Forums are concerned, it seems invisible! Perhaps everything was said about it years ago.
Max
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Hello,
Club Tour? Its a very good value bike, and its a Thorn! I think pictures posted would be a good idea if possible.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Hi John,
You make an extremely good point about where the weight on a bike goes. I think the basicly accepted truth is if you want to reduce weight then take it away from any rotating bodies first as there the most benefit is gained - feel free to correct anyone [:D]
While the claim that the Rohloff hub weighs no more than the usual derailleur components is true it has to be said the derailleur bits and pieces aren't in the rotating weight equation - again, feel free to correct anyone.
Now, please bear with me and accept my fuzzy logic for what it worth, probably very little:
I see the future of cycling going down the Rohloff path for two very simple reasons - it's simple and it's reliable! Want to go faster but work a bit harder then click up. Want to make life a bit easier then click down.
To support this I put forward a sight we see probably everyday. The bike with derailleur gears that hasn't had a gear change since the week after it was bought. The 24 or 27 speed bike that only uses three of the gears. The novice who has got a couple of gear changes down pat for their route but anything else just scares them because of the funny noises. Look how indexed gears took off when we were all brought up on friction changers (I'm 54 by the way).
On a slightly different topic the war of words at work continues. My colleague said 'It's not a bike, it's an armchair!. Can you get a Laura Ashley cover for it?' Another 'friend' said it reminded him of a Bren Gun Carrier.
My Christmas Card list just gets shorter and shorter . . . [:D]
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quote:
Originally posted by john28july
BUT........how about Drop bars which real riders use? I mean real drop bars with good controls. Oh! And real gears that you can select.
www.pbase.com/john28july
Oh John, what a sorry story your website tells. All those bikes you've owned, all designed and built to be capable of lasting a lifetime. All much of a sameness, drop barred derailleur steelies. How many? I lost count, 7? 8? Far too many, what is it you're looking for and why have you found it so hard to find?
If I was to take bike choice advice or criticism, it would be from someone who'd demonstrated they'd got it right for themselves, you’re disqualified[;)]
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Regarding past ownership of bikes. Firstly I had all the bikes at more or less the same time! Too many bikes too little space to keep them and needed cash for other things. For example the Brompton had very little use. I love Thorn bikes and am keeping to them.
As to my giving advice? I was not aware advice was what I gave, but an opinion.
Regarding the Rohloff and the future. Yes I admit that my feeling is that a great number will go this way. Of course if Robin at SJSC were not to promote them so well I think it would be a different story. A bike shop (quite a good one) close to me has sold one Rohloff bike in 3 years! The( cost of course), plus +++++++++++++++++I think the simplicity is not what enthusiasts are looking for? I can only enthuse about the Rohloff as a great system, but its not for me, at least not at the present time.
No reasonable person would overlook the Rohloff but I prefer the weight spread around the bike.
All in all I suspect that one day I will own a Rohloff fitted bike, but only when my days of cycling are down to gentle pootling round the lanes. That would mean a Sturmey Archer 3 speed would suffice. Anyhow, all enjoy your Rohloff equiped machines. They are what you want. They are what you paid for.Have fun. Use that range of gears to advantage. Whilst I continue to 'put up' with the 'old ways'!
Best regards to all,
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Hi frog,
You are right about wanting to remove rotating mass first (because of the micro acceleration effect on every pedal stroke). Luckily the weight in the Rohloff is relatively close to the axle which diminishes the effect. That said I think everyone would like the Rohloff to be a bit lighter.
My second bike is a fully XT equipped Trek 7700FX (hybrid). With the odd upgrade this bike is sub 10kg and is very sporty with radial spokes etc. It is a VERY good bike definitely not to be confused with the cheap and nasty type of hybrid. If I compare the Trek to the Raven Sport I find the trek feels a whole lot quicker and is a LOT lighter but actually when I check the times on my 15 mile (hilly) circuit it is the Raven Sport that comes out (slightly) on top. Added to that that the Raven is more comfortable and is MUCH easier to maintain.
When I first got my Raven Sport I was expecting to continue riding the Trek half the time. In reality I cant remember the last time I was on the Trek.
Point I am trying to make is that weight is not everything. I am not sure it is even important any more.
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quote:
but only when my days of cycling are down to gentle pootling round the lanes.
Flippin' 'eck John! You've been spying on me!! [:I]
I've got to stand with John when it comes to his choice of bikes. Product, and type, loyalty only comes with prolonged good experience and it only takes a small hiccup to throw it out of the window. This only reinforces that Thorn, irrespective of model or drive train, is a bike to have and be proud of.
Equally valid is his observation that each system has it's 'niche market.' Just take a look at the banter I've been getting in the past week. Personally, I don't think hub gears will make a spectacular break out of their niche until a well publicised event (TdF etc) has either a team using them - and does well, or an outright winner. In the meantime derailleur will rule the roost by popularity and saturation. Robin's approach is opening doors everywhere but their hinges aren't all that well oiled. From my own experience of the Thorn stand at the two cycle shows I've been too has been buried in people from the second the doors opened while so called market leaders just across the aisle are bored out of their skulls watching. [:)]
Many thanks stutho for the explanation. I'm very much one for blathering 'accepted wisdom' without having a clue where it came from so I'll go to bed that bit smarter tonight - makes a change I can tell you![:D]
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Derailleur will rule the Tour de France because it's more efficient (in weight and transmission loss). As soon as it offers competetive advantage they will use it.
If I had a team of people cleaning and adjusting my bike every time I finished a ride I would probably have not got the Rohloff either. Also my wife has refused to follow me in the car everywhere carrying a complete set of spare parts (and occasionally leaning out of the window to oil my chain, adjust gears and so on).
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Thanks freddered, I'd completely forgot about the level of support the competitors get during the classics.
I wonder if a rear wheel change on a Rohloff will ever reach the same speed as the mechanics do their changes on the Le Tour?
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[/Hello all!
Well after all this time and loads of thinking, guess what?
Guess what?
Yes go on you are nearly there.
Got it?
I have-well nearly!
I have a Raven Tour frameset arriving today, then its Thorn Brevet virtually brand new to be sold to finance the....Rohloff kit.
So, all in all I will be on a Raven Tour by the end of the year. I will report more as and when.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july Take a look!]
Hi John,
quote:
how about Drop bars which real riders use?
John lights blue touch paper and retires to a safe distance [:D]
I did get my own back on my colleague when I found out that one of the 'hills' he's been training on for the Alps was Ivinghoe Beacon. My comment of 'Surely, the ramp onto the car ferry at Dover is a steeper and longer climb than that?' drew blood.
Despite his entrenched addiction to carbon and speed he did, very grudgingly, admit to a mutual friend in an e-mail that the Raven is a really nice bike and 'looks the business'. As we're the same height and build I'm waiting for the day when he asks for a test ride around the works yard. I don't think I'll have to wait long. [;)]
Still in the light-hearted vein John, have you had a go on a bike with a Rohloff hub? I thought I was a dyed in the wool drop bars and derailleur man as well. The test ride I had at the London Bike Show in 2004 made me really look again at what was on offer. Two years later, 12,000 miles, 3 cassettes, 4 chains, 2 triple chainsets on the junk heap I started to wonder just what I was spending my money on - and was I getting a decent return on it?
As you can see from hsps1, the Raven, and Rohloff, bring out some unexpected qualties in people you thought you knew very well [:D]
[/quote]
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DID I READ THAT RIGHT? Congratulations John, I wish you every success with your new Raven. What will be the spec. ?
PS Whats the story on the Thorn Brevet? - Too similar to your audax?
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quote:
Originally posted by stutho
DID I READ THAT RIGHT? Congratulations John, I wish you every success with your new Raven. What will be the spec. ?
PS Whats the story on the Thorn Brevet? - Too similar to your audax?
Hello,
Well I decided that a Raven Tour was too good to not have! I simply sold the Brevet to fund towards the Raven Tour. I really do hope that I get along with it! Following all the wonderful comments about these bikes I simply gave in.
I am going for MTB style bars as I could not stand the drop bar gearshifter arrangement. I have always ridden drop bars so this is going to be an eye opener I think. Should get the bike up and running next week or so. Will keep information coming.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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quote:
Originally posted by stutho
DID I READ THAT RIGHT? Congratulations John, I wish you every success with your new Raven. What will be the spec. ?
PS Whats the story on the Thorn Brevet? - Too similar to your audax?
Hello,
Its here. Ive ridden it about 2 miles. First impresions? Weird! The only time I can hear anything is when in 7th gear. The rest of the time, utter silince. Its really strange not riding with drop bars but I have to get out at the weekend to become accustomed.........
Will list a link to pictures over the weekend too.
Specification.
Rear wheel Mavic with Rohloff. Front wheel Mavic with Shimano Ultegra hub Dynamo running Lumotec front lamp. Saddle Brooks B17 Black. Seatpost Carbon fibre. Brakes only Tektro until funds allow upgrade to parralell XT or whatever. Mudguards SKS. Bottle cages Minoura black. Crankset Thorn expensive item 42 tooth. Rear rack Thorn Expedition with front lo riders the lightweight mid loaders from Thorn. Stubby bar ends.
All in all a satisfactory build.
Must ride all day all night 24 /7 until I get used to MTB style bars.
Feedback very welcome but I must admit my misgivings about noise from the hub were totally unfounded!!!!
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Good Luck with the new bike John. A very brave decision to go for MTB bars. Interestingly when I got my Raven Sport I switched to drops after riding flat bars for years!
When you decide to upgrade the brakes you might want to consider Avid Ultimate. They are Mega $$$ but are very good - better than parallel push IMHO.
stutho
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(http://ct.pbase.com/g6/13/97613/2/69240974.geIeXd33.jpg)
Good Luck with the new bike John. A very brave decision to go for MTB bars. Interestingly when I got my Raven Sport I switched to drops after riding flat bars for years!
When you decide to upgrade the brakes you might want to consider Avid Ultimate. They are Mega $$$ but are very good - better than parallel push IMHO.
stutho
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I specced mine (Raven Tour)with flat bars originally. I couldn't get on with them and swapped frame to one suited to Drops.
If you ride on top of the Drop bars then shifter(on accessory bar) is very convenient. If you ride on the brake hoods then it's less so.
It's not many years since my shifters were either side of the downtube so it's a definite improvement over that.
Overall though I don't notice it any more. Most importantly (for me) I can climb better out of the saddle with drop bars and I can stretch out over the hoods more to keep a lower profile into the wind.
Anyway, you have 100 days to see how you get on.
Agree with the unearthly silence in most gears. Most prevalent over potholes when there is a total absence of any chain-slap or rattling.
In my opinion this is why it seems, incorrectly, slower than a rattling derailleur bike.
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Hello,
I do not have 100 days 'grace' as the bike was my own build from purchased frameset. I had much of the build parts so 'just' had to buy rear hub and associated parts.I could fit drop bars as I got the short top tube version, but cant really see me getting on with the shifter attached to the stem. I like to ride on the brake hoods.
Anyhow no rides today (Saturday) as I am unwell, and its raining a lot too!
John
www.pbase.com/john28july
quote:
Originally posted by freddered
I specced mine (Raven Tour)with flat bars originally. I couldn't get on with them and swapped frame to one suited to Drops.
If you ride on top of the Drop bars then shifter(on accessory bar) is very convenient. If you ride on the brake hoods then it's less so.
It's not many years since my shifters were either side of the downtube so it's a definite improvement over that.
Overall though I don't notice it any more. Most importantly (for me) I can climb better out of the saddle with drop bars and I can stretch out over the hoods more to keep a lower profile into the wind.
Anyway, you have 100 days to see how you get on.
Agree with the unearthly silence in most gears. Most prevalent over potholes when there is a total absence of any chain-slap or rattling.
In my opinion this is why it seems, incorrectly, slower than a rattling derailleur bike.
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(http://ct.pbase.com/g6/13/97613/2/69289825.AKgnhJ6p.jpg)
Eagle eyed will notice that whilst I mentioned in the General Forum that I was getting the bike fitted with a Shimano Dynamo hub, its not in the picture! However it will be soon.
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Sunday 29th October 2006. First proper ride on the Thorn Raven Tour. 30 miles.
Comments. I think I will be able to adapt/accomodate the MTB style bars once I get another pair with a slightly different shape. The gears I will also get used to quite easily. The silience, now thats a real surprise. Having read many comments on the Rohloff I was expecting loads of noise, but what I have is a unatural silience in all except 7 and 6 gears. I can honestly see why SJSC have no worry offering a 100 day trial period. I think it most unlikely that many are returned!
I think it will be a good camping/tourer and maybe the Nomad will be replaced with something???
John.
www.pbase.com/john28july
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Rohloff Noise. I think that this has always being an over publicised problem. I also think that maybe the production process has improved so new hubs are less noisy than those of 5 years ago. My hub is from 2003 (only one year in a Thorn) and although not noisy it is also not silent. It has seen about 6000 miles over which time it has got quieter. However 5,7,12,14 are still noticeable. The other gears are as quite or better than a derailleur. One bonus is that I know when I am in 7th gear and know to back of a bit before changing to 8th.
It might be all in my head but the noise doesn’t decrease linearly with time but rather decreases in random step changes (especially after an oil change).
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If Buck Rogers had been (will be?) a Postman in the 25th Century he'd ride that. Looks good.