Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Swislon on November 19, 2013, 03:23:02 PM
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Hi Forumers,
I sold my RST a few months back.
I am in the market for a bike that I can use in the winter months, light touring and mixed road rides with off road on Yorkshire's "green roads". What is often called "Roughstuff".
This could be 25 miles on road and 15 miles off road on bridleways, trails, forest tracks etc. Therefore not pure mountain biking.
I would like it to be reasonably sprightly on the road sections and for the winter rides which will most likely be all road.
I prefer 700c wheels as I am 6' 2 and think that 26" on a large frame look a little awkward. However I guess function should outweigh form.
It would also need reasonable mudguard clearance and no toe overlap.
The RST wheel base was too short for this kind of riding imo. OK for the odd ride off road but with short chainstays a little limiting.
Which Thorn model(s) do you think would fit the bill?
Best
Steve
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Hi Steve!
I don't think there is a model currently in Thorn's lineup that exactly fits all your needs (we're awaiting that Rohloff Twenty-Niner), but you can surely hit the mark with some models. It sounds as if you'd like to stay with a Rohloff/Raven model for low maintenance.
How 'bout a Raven? It would have many of the virtues of your late RST but with a longer wheelbase. A Nomad Mk2 seems a bit overkill for your intended needs, and the Nomad "X" is no longer available.
The Raven allows for mudguards and a wide variety of tires to best tune it for your needs. There would be no toe overlap. It is a versatile all-'rounder, and is available in a size that would fit and is in current production. I understand the aesthetics -- it took me awhile to adjust to the appearance of a 26in-wheeled tourer after riding 27in/700C for so long -- but yes, sometimes the results are beautiful in terms of how well they function. The 26in wheel will surely be strong and versatile, and so is the bike. There's a choice of handlebars and frames with short or long top tubes and a range of rims and tires. As Andy Blance says...You can focus the RAVEN towards being a load carrying machine, or you can focus it towards being a super-comfortable, sporty, light-weight, thoroughbred beastie for rough roads, by selecting the appropriate fork
Hard to imagine going far wrong with a Raven for your stated needs. Looking back, my Sherpa Mk2 excelled at just that sort of unladen usage, and its frame was similar to the current Raven's, though the changes in tube diameter Andy made when rationalizing sizes and greater choice in forks makes the Raven an even more versatile all-'rounder.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Thanks for your reply. The Raven is the one that sort of shouts to me as well if I go for another Rohloff!
Strangely enough I didn't try one out when I visited Thorn at the end of September. I was of very foucused on the Mercury but have decided to stay with derailleur
for my faster day rides (fast is a relative term !). However I did have a quick spin on one at the Cycle Show in 2012 and it was very comfortable especially with the 853 fork.
My current list is the Raven and a Spa Ti Tourer (700c 35mm tyres, 71 degree head angle). I should also probably wait to see what the new Thorn Club Tour is like as well.
Apart form the 26" (i know it's a bit vain) wheels the only thing that bothers me a little is the weight. The Raven like most Thorns are, what shall we say, built in a robust way.
Best
Steve
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Hi
A Yellow Nomad.
Pete...
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Although it is running 26 inch wheels the Sherpa is still a very capable bike and with the right wheelset can still be a quick bike but with the added benefit of its ability to take some seriously wide tyres. I am not convinced about the quality of some of these "low price" titanium frames compared to a high grade steel frame. Also running fat tyres can be quick on tarmac but still give some "suspension" on the roughstuff. If the Rohloff is not a necesatiy then it is a lower cost option
Andy
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There is still a mk2 Sherpa in a size right for you? at a very good price from SJS
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-sherpa-mk2-610s-gloss-red-expedition-touring-bike-new-prod31238/
You know you want it really
LOL
Andy
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+1 with Andy on the viability of the Sherpa if you don't specifically need the Rohloff drivetrain, Steve. They're a terrific value and a terrific all-'rounder. A Mk2 would do you well, or the later Mk3 has a frame identical in geometry and diameters to the Raven.
Tune it with tires or swap in a Thudbuster ST (or an LT of clearance allows) and you're set.
The derailleur Thorns are fantastic bikes.
Best,
Dan.
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Sterling.
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The mercury has clearance for fat tyres and a good choice of disc brakes for off road, just not sure about the frame strength.
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Hi Steve
this is exactly the sort of exploratory day riding I have moved towards because the Rohloff Thorns with the more flexible/resilient lighter gauge tubing (eg RST and Sterling, with 858 tube wall thickness rather than 959) are so well suited to it. The 26 inch wheels also allow room for much greater mudguard clearances without toe overlap and they give more saddlebag clearance to boot.
Can you explain more about RST stay length and wheelbase being a limiting factor?
Honesty, I don't think rough stuff would break a Mercury as it will (I think) have passed euro stress tests that are now quite stringent. I'd be more worried about wheel strength.
I've had a Sherpa as well and found it too harsh rigid and unyielding for this sort of unloaded but rough dayriding use. But it is VERY strong and begs for a payload.
I keep wondering how a 650b and Rohloff converted FrankenThorn Audax (poor man's Mercury but more flexible) would work for this sort of use......
And I would love one of these new fangled 853 forks to replace the Mount Tura and make the Sterling even plusher off road without adding any high maintenance requirements...
Happy day dreams
Ian
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Hi All,
A Raven with 700c wheels would probably be perfect. (or even 650B... just saying)
I had a good long look at the Sherpa Andy and looks great but still 26" wheels.
The Mercury is expensive, probably another £800 to £1000 more than the Raven. If it had longer chainstays which would help the stability on the off road sections and luggage carrying (big feet and the RST could only take quite small panniers) then it may have been a contender. I am sure it would be strong enough even with lightweight wheels. Longerwheel base adds to the comfort factor and off road downhill stability.
The Raven (or Sherpa Mk3), Rohloff (or derailleur) I feel are the only Thorn possibilities at the moment. I think the Rohloff would be better off road where changing gear is so much more forgiving. That leaves me with the Raven but can I live with 26" wheels again?
Obviously I haven't answered that yet or I would have ordered one! Cycling shouldn't be this difficult.................
All the best
Steve
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A Raven with 700c wheels would probably be perfect. (or even 650B... just saying)
Hi Steve!
If 650b would do...you could like do-it-yourself and lace on a pair. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3893.0
I found the brake boss placement on both my Sherpa Mk2 and Nomad Mk2 would allow pads to nicely meet-up with 650B wheels, and overall diameter with 650x38b tires is within 1mm of my 26x2.0in Schwalbe Duremes. In other words, the rims are larger, but the tires are smaller, so the outside diameter is essentially the same and the brake pads would reach fine on my two examples.
But, except for the aesthetics of seeing larger wheels, you'd end up in the same place except for running narrower tires at the same diameter. However, checking my clearances carefully, I *think* you could safely go to 650x42B Grand Bois Hetres and still run mudguards and have stay clearances, but I can't guarantee it; you'd be wise to check the frame you intend to use.
That said, you'd probably be better off with a true balloon-bike 26in tire application instead, but that gets you back to the aesthetics of smaller-diameter wheels.Cycling shouldn't be this difficult....
:D Oh, it's the challenge, Steve; where would we be if it was all easy? ;D
Best,
Dan.
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What about the Club Tour? It already seems to have everything you want. It broke the time record for the Pan American Highway (over 14,000 miles, 22,500 k). Some of that was dirt road and off road. That, and being fully loaded and unsupported at the time.
Tom
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Steve
I have a Raven Tour 2009 (26 inch wheels) and this summer part of my tour took me across the 'Roughstuff'. Here is the particular day's GPS track.
http://connect.garmin.com/activity/385534524
Terrible weather, gritty tracks and puddles and with a 36 kg load. No problem. A great bike for those conditions and very comfortable. The current Raven Tour is I believe a bit lighter but would still suit the conditions well for light touring in these conditions!
Richard
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Hi Steve!
If 650b would do...you could like do-it-yourself and lace on a pair. See: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3893.0
I found the brake boss placement on both my Sherpa Mk2 and Nomad Mk2 would allow pads to nicely meet-up with 650B wheels, and overall diameter with 650x38b tires is within 1mm of my 26x2.0in Schwalbe Duremes. In other words, the rims are larger, but the tires are smaller, so the outside diameter is essentially the same and the brake pads would reach fine on my two examples.
But, except for the aesthetics of seeing larger wheels, you'd end up in the same place except for running narrower tires at the same diameter. However, checking my clearances carefully, I *think* you could safely go to 650x42B Grand Bois Hetres and still run mudguards and have stay clearances, but I can't guarantee it; you'd be wise to check the frame you intend to use.
That said, you'd probably be better off with a true balloon-bike 26in tire application instead, but that gets you back to the aesthetics of smaller-diameter wheels. :D Oh, it's the challenge, Steve; where would we be if it was all easy? ;D
Best,
Dan.
I think this is a serious option for larger size Raven frames. I agree that they do look gawky even if function is brilliant. If you are not going around the world then some of the advantages are not there. I doubt it would change the handling very much.
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Hi All,
A Raven with 700c wheels would probably be perfect. (or even 650B... just saying)
I had a good long look at the Sherpa Andy and looks great but still 26" wheels.
The Mercury is expensive, probably another £800 to £1000 more than the Raven. If it had longer chainstays which would help the stability on the off road sections and luggage carrying (big feet and the RST could only take quite small panniers) then it may have been a contender. I am sure it would be strong enough even with lightweight wheels. Longerwheel base adds to the comfort factor and off road downhill stability.
The Raven (or Sherpa Mk3), Rohloff (or derailleur) I feel are the only Thorn possibilities at the moment. I think the Rohloff would be better off road where changing gear is so much more forgiving. That leaves me with the Raven but can I live with 26" wheels again?
Obviously I haven't answered that yet or I would have ordered one! Cycling shouldn't be this difficult.................
All the best
Steve
I agree about a 700c raven, it would sell well. The mercury really interested me but is very expensive for a bike that arguably has some limitations in its range of uses. I'd not want to do rough stuff on a £3.5k bike or use it as a commuter. I know it is designed as an audax or fast tourer and looks fabulous, but personally I'm not convinced this is the best use of a rolhoff. Whereas a 29er raven or something a tad lighter at a third less would be a serious proposition.
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Gosh Dan, there is enough reading on your link to keep me busy for hours!
A balloon bike 26", maybe, I quite like that idea. I also like the idea of of the potential of 650B.
Plenty to think about. Thanks guys.
Cheers
Steve
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Hi all,
The Sherpa is now catching my eye (thanks Andybg!).
How did those of you find riding it unloaded? Most of my rides will be just with a saddlebag for a while.
triaesthete says his was "rigid and unyielding….."
Any other views?
Best
Steve
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My size 610S Sherpa is very 'rigid and unyielding' too, but I guess it is meant to be in order to cope with full touring loads, loaded up it feels more comfortable.
2" tyres run at lowish pressures help to mitigate the stiffness unloaded.
Personally I wonder if it would be better if Thorn had just used standard oversize tubing on the largest size Sherpas instead of the extra oversize tubing that they do use.
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Hi Steve!
I found my Mk2 Sherpa to be very nice for regular 200km rides unladen or laden up to about 10kg. Keep in mind, it was built with conical tubing and tubing diameters have been generally reduced with the Mk3 version, making it a better all-'rounder to ride unladen.
Compared to my more conventional touring bikes, I found the ride generally good provided I didn't pound too much air into the 26x2.0 Schwalbe Duremes when riding unladen. Unladen, F/R pressures of 29/34psi (2-2.3bar) were just about right for my 78kg/172lb. The bike worked particularly well for mixed use -- say, a ride with 75% pavement and 25% single-track. The ride would have been livelier with lighter rims and tires, say something like Rigida Grizzly's and 1.6in road slicks, but I found even my Andras loped along nicely once up to speed.
If I had it now, I might have fit a Thudbuster ST or LT to it, but it would not have been so necessary as on the Nomad, which has a more robust frame (intended for massive loads, as I sometimes carry) and transmits road shocks more harshly when ridden unladen on really rough surfaces. The seatpost made up the difference for me on the Nomad and the bike is fine pretty much anywhere and anyhow I'd care to ride it.
Steve, this bit (cribbed from a post I made in my Nomad gallery: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg48907#msg48907 ) might be helpful in evaluating the ride of a Sherpa: There is reason to have more than one Thorn. They are exceptionally versatile bikes, but still each one excels for a given purpose. If you choose one at each extreme -- say a Nomad and an Audax -- then you'll have two versatile bikes that contrast greatly and really put the spark in riding; no boredom when you can switch from one to another and really feel the difference. Handy topics for those considering multiple Thorns are here:
Audax or Sherpa: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=6607.0
Sherpa or Club Tour: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4669.0
Sherpa or Nomad: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=5581.msg30381#msg30381
A little chart I made showing how Sherpa and the Nomad compare to my rando bike in carrying capacity, comfort, and feel:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4713.msg23329#msg23329
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan,
Once again thanks for all the links and reading material.
I shall now consume with relish.
Best
Steve
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I have no idea which version size 610S Sherpa I have, I bought the frame and fork used. But I found it to handle a 60 pound load very nicely. Have used for a couple of week long tours on gravel with 2.0 width (50mm) Dureme in front and Extreme in rear tires and one 500 mile tour that was predominantly on pavement with 1.5 width (40mm) plain Marathon tires. I also have ridden it extensively unladen and it rode very nicely. Since I usually have 2.0 or 2.25 width tires on it while at home, most of the riding is on gravel since I instead use a 700c bike with narrower tires for most of my pavement riding.
That said, if I only had one bike instead of half a dozen, I think I would pick my Sherpa.
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The decision is made after a discussion with Andy Blance.....
The new Club Tour!
A few weeks to wait though before the frames land.
Thanks for all replies and I may have a few more questions relating to spec but i'll start another thread.
Steve
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ok spill the beans why did you choose the club tour what was it that andy said to make you settle on the clubtour.
just dead curious. ;)
jags.
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Hi Jags
700c wheels
35mm tyres
853 fork
rear disc brake (V brake and cantis still an option)
gunmetal imron finish
derailleur gears
geometry similar to Mercury but longer chainstays
All the things I wanted in my next bike.
It must be Christmas!!
Plus it's a Thorn!
Steve
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yip steve that would do it alright i'm still drooling about the lovely blue audax :'(
fair plat i hope you get it on the road very shortly great bikes thorn thats for sure.
keep it clean. ;)
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Hi Steve
Congratulations on the decision!
The RST got a good summer of use up until recently when back problems stopped me getting on any bike. But hopefully I shall be back on it soon. As the anaethetist was sending me under on Monday he said 'Think of something nice..' and what should flash up in my mind before everything went blank…. the RST riding through the Surrey Hills… A pleasant start to any op!
Gareth
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Wonderful preview of things to come, Steve; thanks and congratulations -- can't wait to see it, and love the color!
Man, Gareth -- hope you'll be feeling better soonest! Perhaps a sus-seatpost might help when you feel well enough to get back on the RST?
Best,
Dan.
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Sorry to hear you've got back issues Gareth and I wish you a speedy recovery.
I'm am really pleased you've been enjoying the RST. Your photos did make me wonder if I'd made the right decision!
My wife is really enjoying hers so much I can't get her to go on the tandem anymore!
Hey Dan, a very happy Thanksgiving!!!
Steve