Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Wheels, Tyres and Brakes => Topic started by: sdg_77 on August 15, 2013, 07:33:58 AM
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All - hopefully one someone can point me in the right direction here ...
I built my first set of wheels this week and have been out for a short test ride ~21km. The wheels seem to be ok, no creaking or tinkling noises and no brake rubbing, what I don't know is how long I should wait before deciding the wheels are a success.
I built them as a spare or winter set for the 'Sunday Morning' bikes, 700C, Tiagra hubs, Mavic Open Sport rims and plain gauge DT spokes (mostly from SJSC) The rear wheel is 36 spokes 3 cross and the front 32 spokes 3 cross.
I followed Roger Musson's book and they seemed to go together well enough, the truing and dishing was not as difficult as I expected, I had to spend more time on getting the spokes up to a reasonable tension - if you like the time between 'built up loose' and 'ready for truing'. I didn't go to to the expense of a tension gauge but my spokes are comparable to a set of good wheels I have in my commuter
Yesterday I put both wheels in the bike and rode round a 21km loop over some average local roads and cyclepaths. Plenty of road-path transitions and a few sections of rough tarmac. When I arrived home I put the new wheels back into the truing stand and they look to be ok - and comparing them to the original wheels from the bike they are equally true.
So - is it reasonable to assume these new wheels are finished?
Other info which might be relevant:
I'm neither particularly light or heavy ~77kg
or particularly fast
The rim/nipples/spoke threads were all lubricated with 3-in-1 before assembly
There were several sessions of 'spoke squeezing' as the builds progressed
The wheels I used for comparison are ~15 years old and were built up by the LBS from similar quality components
My Sherpa wheels feel distinctly tighter than the new ones
The Sunday Morning bikes are Cannondale Synapses
thanks
sdg.
edit - trying to add a photo ....
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2815/9575040641_d46436e67a.jpg)
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Nice work! That is a task I have yet to attempt. A couple months ago I got my Mom's 40 yr old bike back on the road. The spokes were all loose so I tightened them up. I just used the fenders as my gauge.
Maybe you will want a few more intermediate test rides before you launch yourself across the Gobi desert with 200 lb of supplies, but those wheels sound fully and properly cooked to me, for whatever that amateur assessment is worth!
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Hi well done,
The hardiest part of wheel building is Not the Dishing or the Truing! BUt the tensioning of your wheels!
The best Wheels have 100% = tension on all your spokes (yes there is more tension on one side of your rear wheel)
So if you would like to build your wheels better then your LBS the best way is to use a tension gauge tool! Park Tools make a have well priced one which works very well. If you play Music and have a good ear then you can get very close with the sound of the ping of your spokes.
It is far better to have 100% = Tension and almost True! Then 100% True and Not = Tension.
The next wheels you build use some better oil then 3 in 1. like some Phil Wood, Rohloff, or one of the good spokes lubes that are made for the job.
I do not lube/oil my nipple's but use Loctite 222 on all my wheel builds and only lube the heads of my spokes nipples..
Happy Riding
Pete 8)
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Jim - thanks - if you have sorted out old wheels a new build probably won't be as difficult. I removed and then replaced a couple of spokes from a cheap wheel salvaged from my daughter's old MTB as a practice and found that more difficult than starting afresh with new quality components.
I'd recommend the Roger Musson book if you want to have a go yourself, good diagrams and plain English explanations.
Peter - thanks - I'll have a look for those lubricants for next time. Good to know the part I found most difficult is the right one ;-) I tried using a home made nipple driver but ended up with the spokes too tight at first, had to back them all off and go for three threads showing and then go one turn, half a turn, quarter turn at a time on each spoke. I think I might not have enough 'point' on the driver and/or went for the next size down in spokes. Having said that - there was plenty of thread engaged once I had finished so the spoke lengths can't be too far off.
I am the world's worst guitar player but the spokes don't sound too far out to me - at least they are all in the same octave ;-)
We'll be in new Zealand (South Island) in October for a 30th wedding anniversary trip, hoping to hire a couple of bikes and get a few rides in.
Now tending to think I should use the new wheels for this weekend's Sky Ride. I'm not leading so no great disaster if I have to call she who must be obeyed for a rescue.
regards
sdg.
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+1 to all in Pete's post, Steve; good stuff there. After carefully reading your post, I do wonder if the overall tension might be a smidge low. Do you have access to a tension meter?
Lacking one, you may wish to try the wheels on the Sky Ride and then recheck for trueness. The results of the check will tell you if tension was a bit low (needing some touch-up retruing) or if it is in the right range.
Well done! Congratulations on a nice, new set of handbuilt wheels!
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan - just had a 'spoke tapping' session in the garage.
For those old enough to remember think wheeltappers and shunters without the flat cap ....
The new wheels sound even with the drive side rear obviously tighter. Comparable to my old commuter with it's LBS wheels of a similar quality. Squeezing by hand they feel the same and are again comparable to the LBS wheels. So - I think longer test at the weekend is worth the risk.
Just for fun ... the old cheap MTB salvaged wheels sound all over the shop and at a much lower note than any of the others. The bladed aero spokes in the original wheels for my Synapse sound a much higher note than any of the other wheels, but they have rather fewer spokes.
Drifting away from the point ... there is a fairly 'interesting' hill on Sunday's route so I may put discretion before valour and take the Thorn instead.
The interesting hill is at around 11:08 in this brilliant old film ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP1KxPjh4RM
regards
sdg.
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...there is a fairly 'interesting' hill on Sunday's route
Yeah! :o I'll say!
I think I remember that scene from an old Frank Patterson sketch.
Very best of luck on the ride, Steve; looking forward to hearing how thing went.
All the best,
Dan.
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Oh Dear ... had another quick look at the new wheels before this morning's ride and found a couple of loose spokes in the non-drive side rear. So .... left the original wheels in the bike for the ride and have ordered a Park tension meter.
As I often used to say ... if it was easy where would the challenge be?
sdg.
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Hi Steve!
All encouragement your way -- you're already past several of the usual hurdles and with tension gauge in hand, you'll be well on the way to mastering that aspect as well. Correct tensioning without a gauge can be a tricky thing -- as it can with one (general caution for all users to Read the Instructions here: http://www.parktool.com/documents/127245b930147688032919c09d34bd52c3702f19.pdf ...and conversion table here: http://www.parktool.com/documents/e67c6090d7d95c23c6adf51afa2d34d8d5e32c5e.pdf )
I've built many wheels and formally taught the process to others in classes. I wish more people were brave enough to tackle building their own wheels. It is a great way to better understand what goes into a wheel, and the nicely laced result can still be tensioned and final-trued by the LBS at some savings.
You'll do fine, Steve. As I often used to say ... if it was easy where would the challenge be?
Exactly! And there's where the joy lives -- in a thorough job well done!
Best of luck on your ride.
All the best,
Dan. (...who thinks DIY is cheap tuition for the education)
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caCloMziaCk
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Dan, Jags, thanks. I'm intending to wait until the tension widget arrives and see how my 'all even by squeeze test' measures up in reality.
That video is one of the better ones, and pretty close to what I did, so hopefully I just need to even up the spoke tensions.
Love those Park instructions ... the Mavic rims are specified for 100 kgf which is reassuringly near to the middle of the Park figures in both the table and the instructions.
Rehetorical question, do people really need to be told how to calculate an average?
sdg.
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Rehetorical question, do people really need to be told how to calculate an average?
If you take all those who do and all those who don't and divide by two, then...yes.
At least in my experience.
:D
Best,
Dan. (...who is speaking experientially and not methodologically)
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Wonderful ... and my wife and son-in-law are both mathematics teachers!
sdg (a mere engineer)
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Short update ....
The Park Tension meter arrived yesterday and - Dan - you were right about the original build lacking tension. The front wheel was OK, mostly 20/21 on the deflection scale but the rear was barely 20 on the drive side and so ~15/16 on the non drive.
I left the front as it is and tightened all of the rear spokes by ~half a turn, found the dishing had gone a long way off and so decided to slacken all of the spokes off and start again, then decided I was not sure I hadn't mixed up the spokes in the original build and stripped the whole wheel for a start from scratch.
After much to and fro, definitely getting the spokes mixed up and a couple of false starts, the wheel is now rebuilt, runs true (ish) and the dishing is good.
Peter - I went for your approach of even tension over absolute true running.
Drive sides now 24/25 and the non drives 19/21. Pinched a couple of tubes getting the tyre back on, but both new wheels are back in the bike for a try-out tomorrow ;-)
Also had a run round my other wheels with the tension meter and they are not as evenly tensioned as the new wheels
Thanks for the advice and encouragement.
sdg.
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Thanks for the advice and encouargement.
You're more than welcome, Steve; I'm really proud of you for persevering, and the results are not just in the wheels, but in the education as well.
It might not seem like it now, but it really does get easier with time and practice, and --also in time -- one can get a very close approximation of the tension meter with "feel" and tone, helpful for field repairs when the proper tools are left at home.Peter - I went for your approach of even tension over absolute ture running.
This is a good choice between the two, and you can always even things up later if they're not too far out. I prefer to think of tensioning as "adding layers" of tension, truing each layer as I go, right from my first threading of the nipples. That way, the wheels are tensioned evenly *and* true as I go, which eases stress on the rims that can occur if tension varies widely throughout the wheel.
One thing to keep in mind...as tension increases, so does the tendency toward spoke windup -- the spoke will twist with the nipple rather than in it. As a result, radial and/or axial trueness will be affected and tension can be as well. The way I address it is to face the outside of the rim, looking toward the hub. I tension the nipple with a key in one hand as I lightly touch the spoke shaft with the fingers of the other. It is easy to feel the spoke windup and know how much to counter-turn the key to compensate -- say tighten 1/2 turn, back off 1/4, for example. When I taught wheelbuilding, I gave each student a Sharpie permanent marker and had them draw a line the length of the spoke so they could see the spoke windup. Made the concept easier to grasp and the marks came off with a dab of isopropyl alcohol on a paper tissue. For that matter, holding a marker against the sidewall as the wheel is spun highlights the high and low spots and sometimes makes it easier for newer wheelbuilders to see just where the wheel is out of true.
Good on ya! Can't wait to read the ride report.
All the best,
Dan. (...who will admit to the occasional lapse on initial lacing himself, as will anyone who's built a lot of wheels and is honest about it. The phone or doorbell rings and...where was I? ::))
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Well there's interesting, or possibly I'm just sad .....
I took the new wheels for a ride around the block, over some rough(ish) surfaces and up a couple of hills just to get a little load on them.
This afternoon I had something of a 'festival of spoke tension measuring' in the garage and found some of the results a bit of a surprise .... but no horror stories.
All of the wheels I measured are at least on the Park conversion chart and mostly in the middle or at the upper end of the tension range.
The Sherpa does not have the tightest spokes, those are in the dyno hub front wheel from the LBS.
The Sherpa's back wheel is the tightest of the rear wheels, this one has some variation in tensions, mostly confined to the non drive side spokes.
The least tensioned spokes are in the original wheels from the Synapse, these have broad bladed spokes, the non drive sides really are 'slack'. Despite that, the wheel runs true.
As you might expect, the wheels with the greatest dish show the most variation between sides
So, thanks again for the advice and encouragement, I'll try the new wheels properly this weekend.
regards
sdg.
For the keen the results are here:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/29736275/Wheel_Tensions.xlsx
Claud is my old 'sports bike' from the mid 80s with only the frame original, this is the bike with the LBS wheels which are the nearest to the ones I built.
Self Build is the new wheels
Erwin is my Sherpa
The Enterprise is my Synapse - which is the bike I'm using the new wheels with.
Any blank cells are where reflectors make it difficult to get the meter onto a spoke.
I may carry on and measure the tensions in Gill's Sherpa and Synapse at some point.
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Hi Steve!
Now you know a primary reason why I build my own wheels -- high, even tension. Secondary reasons are to save on labor costs and the satisfaction and pleasure of doing something I enjoy myself. [Fingers crossed so I don't invoke the cousins of the Puncture Imps] I've yet to break a spoke on wheels I've built myself.
I was initially motivated by cost and some horrific results on wheels I commissioned or purchased. About all I can say positive about them is I later found it stupifying how far things could be off and still turn in reasonably tight circles laterally and radially. Though generally low in tension, machine-built wheels are at least laced in a consistent pattern and the spokes can be bedded and brought up to spec better than some incorrectly hand-built wheels -- or relaced and rebuilt from scratch with good results.
I contemplated this yesterday as I charged through traffic on my 43 year-old Raleigh Grand Sports, which sported the first wheels I built myself. I looked down and saw the galvanized Union spokes sold to me by a LBS as "stainless with a protective coating" -- yeah, right (can't believe the LBS clerk managed to keep a straight face on that one) -- but there were no alternatives available to me at the time when I needed the wheels very badly. The good news? They are still tensioned properly and run true lo these many years later.
All the best,
Dan.
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Well the wheels have reached the stage of 'stop now', they survived their whizz round the block and the tensions are even to within 2 divisions on the meter. Next up, Sunday's SkyRide Social. We have 8 signed up and possibly another 8 from the village cycle club, so if they fail I will have plenty of moral support, or possibly just embarrasment ;-)
Dan - your veteran steed beats mine by almost a couple of decades! I'm 90% sure I keep Claud for sentimental reasons only, like the memories of touring Orkney when our daughter was ~months old, that pretty much did for the orignal back wheel and started the cycle of replacements .....
sdg.
Last attempt at adding photos below ..... getting the valves to line up with the hub text and the rim labels was 'interesting' but I like the result.
edit ... I give up! they are here ... http://flic.kr/p/fF33yu
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2867/9630736932_8761771c33.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7374/9630737362_a82a3f153f.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7332/9630736440_e5aa464d46.jpg)
[Fixed photo links so they display properly -- Dan]
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My! What a nice-looking set of wheels, Steve, and a stunning garden setting to build them in! Pretty and serene enough to put one in the proper zenlike state for lacing and truing wheels.
Steve, wrt to label alignment... in the olden days, firms like Shimano and Campagnolo stamped or embossed their logos on their hubs, and they were consistently indexed. These days, hub logos are silkscreened or printed by the tampon method ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pad_printing ) and are not always perfectly indexed, so a wheelbuilder sometimes can't quite get the logo.to line up perfectly no matter how hard they try -- the logo is "clocked" a little bit ahead or behind the valve hole. Other times, the stars align and all comes out fine. For that matter, tire logos are not always printed opposite each other! Get one side aligned with the valve stem, and the the other can be "off". I try to align mine when the bike is viewed from the right, since the drivetrain side is what usually figures in photos. Nobody can see how far things are off on the other side!Dan - your veteran steed beats mine by almost a couple of decades!
<nods> The old Raleigh was the worst/only used bike buying mistake I made, purchased in a rainstorm when I had been awake 63 hours straight working on a big project -- I didn't see its flaws till the next day and just felt sick. I restored the thing, found the original components were so egregiously bad as to be unusable(any one remember plastic-bodied Simplex rear mechs where the spring-seats pulled out on their own?), then rebuilt it with quality early-'80s Japanese componentry. I'm not really sure why I keep it except it won't bring any money on resale, rides pretty well, is lightweight, great for bombing through traffic, and draws comment 'cos it looks factory-fresh after all these years.I keep Claud for sentimental reasons only, like the memories of touring Orkney when our daughter was ~months old
Bicycle Sentiment, Steve! I'm infused with it myself. I somehow bond with bicycles as the most personal of tools, then see them as mnemonics for remembering happy times, journeys, and memories, and can't bear to part with them.
Please let us know how you do on the Sunday SkyRide Social. My guess? It'll be that much sweeter for riding in wheels you built yourself!
All the best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan - we are having a photos sort out at home so if the 1987 Orkney holiday shots surface I'll scan and post the one of Rachel with the home made water/windproof dungarees, polystyrene helmet and fish and chips.
She must have liked the holiday as 20+ years later she went back for part of her university course.
sdg.
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wow nice built wheels fair play to you,bet your hooked now ;)
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Thanks Jags - yes hooked - looking for a next project/excuse.
Probably my son's girlfriend's bike, which is a long term loan from my wife ....
sdg.
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my next buy if ever i win the lottery is a nice shiny front wheel with son dynamo hub 36 spoke hand made of course..mind you the wheels i have on my Raleigh at the moment i bought from wiggle .
mavic 319 rims/deore hubs 9 speed rear,./sapin stainless spokes.machine made but finished by hand (if you could believe that) ::) and to be honest i can't complain they have been spot on running true sine the day i bought them.
but yeah must be great satisfaction riding a set of wheels that you built yourself knowing there perfect.
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Good News - the wheels survived our ~59km SkyRide this morning ;-)
http://app.strava.com/activities/79161005
Several new people too. So although the ride was not fast, seeing a 3 year old take a pack of raisins out of her dad's rucksac and pass them to her younger sister one the back of mum's bike was a delight ;-)
sdg.
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Hah my grandaughter always raids my snack barbag for raisins ;D ;D
great the wheels are doing what there supposed to be doing. 8)
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What a nice loop with lots of uppy-downies to keep things entertaining, Steve; thanks for sharing the map and ride elevation profile.
Thanks also for the new wheel ride-results -- yay!
All the best,
Dan. (...who thinks these will be first of many Steve-built wheels in your future)
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Now thinking of a 'strong' back wheel for the MTB to allow for 'junior's seat' ;-)
Sounds like a good excuse to try disc brakes too ......
sdg.
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Now thinking of...Sounds like a good excuse to try...
And so it goes; infected with the wheelbuilding bug! ;D
All the best,
Dan. (...who wishes everyone would give wheelbuilding a try)
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wishes everyone would give wheelbuilding a try
Seconded .... once I got going it was a great learning experience and getting home on Sunday having ridden my new wheels for the whole morning was very satisfying.
Forum members have the advantage of some quality advice & encouragement too ;-)
I can break anything*, so if I can manage it .... you can too.
sdg.
* re-furbished the swing arm on my old Suzuki trail bike without the bearing bushes .... interesting handling ;-)
* almost flooded my daughter's kitchen sorting out the washing machine plumbing
* mixed Radio 1 with Radio 4 ... on air.
grovelling apology to the boss the next day, he just collapsed laughing and said all good engineers have one such story, but only one.
* set up a monitoring system at work with all of the alarms filtered out
* more PC software debacles than I care to remember (possibly not my fault?)
* drilled a hole in a gas pipe - also in my daughter's house - decided to get a 'real' gas fitter in to repair that one ;-)
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well i have to say i haven't a bad pair of hand's but the head well thats another story ::)
now if only you made a video of that wheel build, (oh what fun we'd have).
yeah i like to see how these things are done reading it doesn't do it for me ::)
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if only you made a video of that wheel build
Jags - just realised there is a video of wheel lacing on the wheelpro www site, you do need a login to see it but I guess it is the same one as here on Vimeo ...
http://vimeo.com/11005316
Obviously ... I went at a rather slower pace and having put the first set of spokes through the wrong side of the hub flange I had a fine time figuring out why I couldn't get the 3rd set to reach the nipples ;-
sdg.
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good stuff some great videos on that site i have it on my favourates thanks.
jags.