Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Muppets Threads! (And Anything Else) => Topic started by: Danneaux on August 05, 2013, 05:40:35 PM
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Hi All!
Recent discussions of belt drives and my own dabbling into clipless pedal systems has me wondering...
Are new bicycle frame and component designs really better than older, traditional ones? Or, in day-to-day use, do they wind up working or being about the same in practice despite all the advances?
Most Bicycle Problems have already been addressed in some way; it is a pretty refined device. In most cases, "new" designs are simply updates of previous designs -- more refined, better executed, more comprehensive -- rather than truly new solutions. The early French constructeurs, for example, had such things as threadless headsets and steerers with clamp-on stems, and Roger Durham's Bullseye cranks predate Shimano's HollowTech 2-piece cranks by several decades. For something really nifty from days gone by, see: http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/components/resilion-story.html
Some newer iterations really do work better than earlier generations. For example, Rohloff, Nexus, and Alfine internally-geared hubs are surely an advancement over the venerable Sturmey-Archer 3-sp and 5-sp IGH in terms of overall range...though old S-A hubs still seem to last forever.
When I got Sherpa, then the Nomad, I wanted a bicycle for the next 20 years. Accordingly, it made sense to embrace the new and go for what is currently standard, bringing my latest baseline forward a good 25 years from my most recently purchased new bike. I even opted for a disc-ready Rohloff to help future-proof the bike, and the Medium frame will accept comfort, straight, or trekking handlebars and still provide a proper fit if I ever decide to change from drop 'bars. I love it! Everything works very well and just as it should. I could not be happier and have the expedition bicycle of my dreams, ideal for my needs.
I have a frame of reference for all this. Looking at the rest of my bicycle collection, I'm mostly stuck in the past:
• Lugged steel frames with standard road tube diameters vs TiG'd-oversized ('89 tandem, previously-owned Sherpa, current Nomad)
• Full-sized diamond-style frames vs compact designs with sloping top tube (Sherpa, Nomad)
• Threaded steerers vs threadless (Sherpa, Nomad)
• Quill stems vs clamp-on (Sherpa, Nomad)
• Internal, square-taper bottom brackets/cranksets vs external/outboard (Sherpa, Nomad)
• Friction-shifted 5- and 6-speed freewheels vs indexed derailleurs and cassette hubs (1989-era Shimano Deore on the '89 Miyata 1000LT -- and it has a friction option)
• Polished aluminum rims vs anodized/powdercoated rims with machined sidewalls (Sherpa, Nomad, Alex Adventurer rims on Miyata)
• Cantilevers or brazed-on centerpulls or nutted normal-reach sidepull calipers vs v-brakes (Nomad)
• Brooks all-leather or Avocet Touring II leather-over-foam-over nylon base vs plastic or cloth over foam over nylon
• Randonneur or compact drop handlebars vs deep-drop anatomic drops or straight or comfort or trekking 'bars
• Quill or platform pedals with toe clips and straps vs SPDs (Nomad)
• Cage-cleating leather racing shoes with laces vs SPDs made of plastic with velcro and ratchet closures
• Full-sized, frame-fit pumps vs compact pumps attached to bottle cages
• "Nothing" or a stay-mounted kickstand (2) vs Click-Stand (Nomad)
• Incandescent-tungsten lighting vs LED (Nomad)
• Bottom-bracket or bottle dynamos vs dynohub (Nomad)
• Homemade panniers or Kirtland TourPacks with hooks and springs vs Ortlieb Packer Plus bags with locking hooks
...and so on.
The thing is, I'm happy with *all* my bicycles and enjoy riding them equally. All have dyno lighting, a wide range of easily-accessed easily-shifted gearing, are supremely comfortable and fit well, have good brakes, and handle nicely. The parts seem to last forever. I enjoy my old bikes just as much as the new Nomad, but in different ways, since it addresses a core (full-on expedition touring) need unmet by my other bikes. My favorite rando bike has the same gearing as the Nomad with all the intermediate steps the same, 13- vs 14-sp. The only difference is I dropped the top gear and added two useful lower ones on the Nomad. In use, I shift at the same points and ride in the same gears. I've traded 2 levers and easy-shifting half-step derailleur gearing for 1 knob and even easier-shifting IGH.
So! For discussion...
• Do you find yourself using "new technology" components about about the same way as you did the old? (Yes from me) Or, do you push them to their limits using them to their full capacity? (Also me, but I do that with the old stuff too, using it to the limits)
• Do you have a favorite "new" component design you find clearly superior in your use? (Ooh! I vote for the derailleur chain quick-link here! I also really like Shimano's Shadow series single-pivot rear mechs. The Nomad's sloping top tube came in handy hundreds of times on my last logging-road test-tour...dynohubs and charging systems and interrupter brake levers...and so on; Nomad's setup just as I like)
• Do you have a favorite "old" you cling to out of sentimentality, continued usefulness, or because it does a superior job? (Thinking...)
'Love to hear your thoughts. I'm guessing this might touch a chord with Jawine, who has just finished a lovely build of a 1980s road bike in the style of the day, complete with tubular tires.
Best,
Dan. (...who just likes good, reliable, well-designed stuff that lasts in use)
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Dan,
I started my cycling with a Raleigh Sturmey Archer 3 speed straight handlebar bike in the late 1950s.
It was a great bike to start with and I took it to bits many times and reassembled it with no bits left over!
That taught me a lot.
I did my first tour on it at the age of twelve.
But into modern times here is my list of what I think is now better,
• SPD clipless pedals and shoes/sandals you can walk in.
• Cranks which do not use a cotter pin!
• Cartridge bottom brackets.
• LED lights front and rear.
• Rechargeable batteries, remember the old zinc/carbon ones?
• Brake blocks which work in the wet.
• Pumps with a pivoting handle for comfort in use.
• Multitools - appeal to the engineer in me.
• Luggage systems from various sources, Carradice & Revelate are 2 which I use.
• Tyres which have improved beyond belief.
• Handlebar grips which offer support such as the Ergon family.
• Bike computers, my original odometer was mechanical.
• My Brompton is a folding bike which is truly transportable when folded and still rides well.
My favourite 'old' is a Karrimor Uplift, fantastic with a B17 and a Tourer Longflap saddlebag.
Julian.
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Excellent list, Julian, and I'm in 100% agreement.
Man!
Carbon-zinc batteries? Yes, I remember them for the yellow light they helped incandescent bulbs produce, short lifespan, and the clouds of white corrosion left behind when they leaked.
Tires? Oh, boy! I remember some old "Carlton" and Wolber tires that turned all crumbly and the sidewalls would begin to split. Missing from my list above is something I rarely think about but would be lost without -- rims with hooked edges to capture the tire bead and prevent blowoff at anything above 65psi/4.4bar.
<nods> ...And having to hand-file the taper on replacement cotters, made of such mild steel the threaded portion would often twist off far below the rated minimum torque when installing.
LEDs! 'Nuff said. Superior in ways we could never have dreamed.
Pumps. Agreed, not only pivoting handles, but barrels made of something more durable than styrene (like my old Silca Imperos), and with thumb-lock heads (unlike my Campagnolo push-on/hammer-off compressed rubber doughnut heads).
Cartridge-bearing anything, so components can be made as-new with a simple and inexpensive bearing swap, beating the pants off the days when even high-quality hubs were made with unsorceable replacement cones (on this side of the Pond, anyway).
Bromptons! My own Folder I'm brazing is a full-sus sort of Brompton-meets-Bike Friday with 406mm wheels, an homage to the Brompton's terrifically good basic design but with several twists and a very different hinge design and made from thinner-walled tubing.
What a great list, Julian. Oh! My first "geared" bike was a Schwinn Sting-Ray at age 8. It had an S-A 3-sp as well. Fond memories there. I still have one in a fully-restored 1970 Motobecane/Astra U-frame Folder hanging in my garage.
All the best,
Dan. (...who is beginning to think *now* might be the Good Old Days)
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Hey Dan, *now* is the only day the rest are all an illusion. (Zen!)
Lucky for us it's a good'un.
One thing I really appreciated was the cassette hub. No more broken Campag spindles. However I miss the super positive but light shifting of a Super record mech, Simplex retrofriction lever and Maillard six speed block.
LEDs and hub generators have transformed things above all else for me.
From the past it took me years to discover traditional Carradice saddlebags and Brooks saddles. I grew up with nylon and plastic but having learnt (learning still) how to use the old stuff, it's just like coming home.
Happy day (it's the only one we truly have)
Ian
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Hey Dan, *now* is the only day the rest are all an illusion. (Zen!)
Lucky for us it's a good'un....Happy day (it's the only one we truly have)
So, so true, Ian, and precious beyond measure.
All the best,
Dan. (...who also had those lovely retro-friction Simplex gear levers with the organic, jewel-like shape -- wow!)
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Hi All,
Here is my "Better than Old".
1st = Suspension Forks
1st = Rohloff Speedhub
3rd Specialized Body Geometry Saddles
4th Tubeless Tyres
5th Salsa "2 Bend" Handlebars in 23 degrees :-* my arm's love me again :o
(http://cdn.mos.bikeradar.com/images/bikes-and-gear/components/bottom-bracket/1364917802539-dipfai6paado-670-75.jpg)
6th Enduro Bearing XD-15 BB (because of being the 1st to go back to Angular Contact design bottom bracket with 3/16? balls) like Old Old BB's
Here is a short video http://youtu.be/K0LWoEaaMRU (http://youtu.be/K0LWoEaaMRU)
Well that is me for how my top five plus a little old that this come back :)
Pete 8)
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Better:
Modern handlebars with ergonomic shapes
Saddles with cutsouts
SPDs are straps are slow at lights
Dynohubs, bottle dynamos are awful drags and slip
And per Le Manfriend
Modern headsets, apparently old ones can seize. He knows, he's done up many a rustbucket.
Bit of a bind for me on the BBs. Old ones are tricky to adjust, but servicable, seem to last. New ones is a use and dump affair. Same with wheel hubs old Campagnolo Record seems to go forever and 3 days if properly serviced.
Same for STIs they're handy and if you race yes, if not, down/bar end shifters are cheap as chips and really easy to setup and compatible with everything.
RE frames I am old school I don't like alu cos it's ugly. Big welds, big tubes...why??? Would I race straight to Crabon Fibre
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NEW BETTER THAN OLD
Sealed bearings. The modern bike couldn't exist without them.
Balloon tyres. Not new but brilliantly brought back from dead and buried and apparently rretrievably obsolete.
Anti-intrusion bands in tyres, making the best of them virtually puncture-proof.
The internal gear hub, with the Rohloff as the best of them.
The Hebie Chainglider, so much superior to those ugly, clanking Dutch full enclosures both aesthetically and practically.
The biggest disc brakes of them all, the Magura rim hydraulics.
Stainless steel bicycle spokes.
LED lamps.
Lithium-xxx batteries in so many on-bike devices, and for powering electriified bikes.
Alu rims.
OLD BETTER THAN NEW
Lugs. Welding is ugly.
And NEW MUCH WORSE THAN OLD
USB is the dumbest idea for an on-bike or anywhere-outdoor electrical connector I ever heard of. Where did those idiots who're pushing this abomination buy their mailorder engineering degrees from?
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USB is the dumbest idea for an on-bike or anywhere-outdoor electrical connector I ever heard of. Where did those idiots who're pushing this abomination get their mailorder engineering degrees from?
Agreed. It was an attempt to accommodate an existing standard and all the gadgets made to work with it, a standard developed for *indoor* use.
In this respect, BUMM did it "better" with their weatherized plugs and screw-cover connectors on the e-Werk, placing the weather-vulnerable USB connector remotely under cover in the handlebar bag.
Good list of "betters", Andre!
Best,
Dan. (...who is stitching up a weather-cap for his Tout Terrain The Plug2+)
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Aluminium rims better than steel for braking efficiency.
V brakes are magnificent particularly when using the Andrada CSS coated with the matching pads, using these who needs disc brakes?
Long frame pumps, I have four Zefal HPX of various sizes on my bikes. Pity that Zefal no longer make these.
Square taper cranks instead of cotter pins, they were mongrels to remove and instal properly.
Modern bike lights, both dynamo and battery.
Tyre technology has improved over the years.
Rohloff much better than deraileur gears for touring bike applications.
SPD better than toeclips.
YMMV
Mike
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Every thing is much better these days except for one thing.
TRAFFIC .
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Every thing is much better these days except for one thing.
TRAFFIC .
DRIVERS aren't much chop either.
Andre Jute
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Anybody want to guess when the first Eccentric Bottom Bracket went into production...?
(the more things change, the more they stay the same as the French say)
;D
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1989 ::)
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Uhhhhhguessing...perhaps the late 1800s? Must've coincided with the introduction of the Safety bicycle, as there would have been no need with a high-wheeler or draisienne (no chain).
Best,
Dan.
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1912 is earliest I could find, but they maybe have come earlier.
Bottom bracket gearing is also the "new best thing" but it's from early 1900s...
Me, ow, non cotterred cranks are definitely better...I've seen Le Manfriend break a few tools on them...
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Oh! Cottered cranks! Hateful things in my book. Always a fuss to file the pin faces to match the taper on the spindle, then knocking them out again at the next service is no fun, either. Always stuck fast and then the threads got deformed even if one used care to leave the nuts on the threads.
Scarred me for life, I tell you!
All hail the cotterless square-taper three-piece crank!
Best,
Dan. (...who is just shaking off bad memories and will be okay again in a few minutes)