Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Rohloff Internal Hub Gears => Topic started by: Fred A-M on June 26, 2013, 11:03:52 PM
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After 8 years of near faultless riding with the RST - the first signs of a problem on the commute home this evening. Thankfully the forum is on hand hopefully to save the day..... :-)
Basically the shifter (hopefully not the Rohloff itself) seems to be jamming, particularly when shifting upwards (ie between gears 14 - 1 direction). Easier when shifting down but definite signs of resistance in inverse direction. Seems significantly harder to shift when stationary!
It could be that there's rust in the shifter cables as I have to leave the bike outside regularly for the first time in its history in a secure area at work. I ordered some replacements years ago but looks such an operation replacing that I put it off. Overdue an oil change by about 6 months (low mileage as been doing about 40 miles a week for last 9 months) so have ordered replacement oil. Hub probably has about 15,000 miles on it, hoping very much it's not the first sign of a need to change the internal wire.
I sense that with my hugely diminished mechanical skills (due to having to do virtually next to nil maintenance since becoming an RST owner) that I'm in for a bit of an ordeal!
Could anyone summarise possible shifting problems with the Rohloff or summarise a diagnosis routine that could help me narrow down the cause? Any pearls of wisdom & general pointers gratefully received.
Cheers
Fred
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Hi Fred!
So sorry to hear you're having troubles shifting...but they surely took a long time to arrive! That's encouraging in itself. My guess is a rough cable-housing near the shifter.
Rohloff's site has a link for trouble shooting here: http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/workshop/trouble_shooting/
...that in turn links to the manual. You'll want Chapter> Service And Repairs > Appendix > Troubleshooting
Troubleshooting starts on page 119. Download page is here: http://www.rohloff.de/en/service/downloads/documentation/index.html
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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My bet would be on the internal cable having frayed and now requires replacement https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAW6IOew0qE&list=PLA22F2D0EC3FCF239
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Hi Dan and Dave
Thanks both for your respective replies and intuitive guesses - which both suggest a cable problem. Dan, thanks for your RTFM pointer ;) and for putting it right under my nose with relevant page references! That will save some time as I'm uncertain as to the whereabouts of my hard copy!
I'll report back!
Cheers
Fred
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Can you disconnect the cables from the hub and then see how freely can you twist the shifter? I expect the hub can be shifted on its own, too. I have the external shift box on my Nomad so I am not sure just how the RST mechanism works.
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Egads! It's a veritable plague! My shifter is jamming now!
I're pretty sure it's the shifter or anyway very close to it. When I disconnect the EXT box the shifter still doesn't turn freely. I can force it to turn but it's like scraping somehow. There is no play at all so I don't think it's down at the EXT box.
I fear I may have to learn how to install new cables!
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Watching this video:
http://www.rohloff.de/en/technology/workshop/videos/twist_shifter_grip_replacement/index.html
Maybe somehow my grip is just sticking. I pulled off the O-ring. Now, how do I get that grip off? The video makes it look easy. Maybe I am getting to the problem!
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Ach! Double trouble! Trying to pull my grip off, the whole cable pull mechanism want to come along. I can see that inside the pulley the cable is totally frayed! Oh, I fear I am in for a bit of work!
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Is that by Bob Marley? ;)
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Well, it's a frayed cable, that much is clear! Already, though, the whole job is quite off the textbook track. SNAFU. Damn the torpedoes!
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/Nomad/IMG_1636_zps2bfa1b90.jpg)
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It's a miracle! But I seem to have 14 gears back, 13 nice clicks. Very happy to have those nice videos!
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That 200 mm cable measuring jig looked nifty so I made myself one out of a brass tube from the hardware store down the street. Enough things to worry about, which one is 1 and which one is 14, are the housing ends properly seated up at the shifter... so making the measurement more fool proof seemed like a good investment of $2.50 and 10 minutes. Yeah the hardware store is right by the bike shop so I could get the tube on the way back from getting the shifting cables.
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It's a miracle! But I seem to have 14 gears back, 13 nice clicks.
Wonderful news, Jim, after some uncertain times there.
You've done really well -- sounds as if you're ready to go back on the road; really nice to have the experience under your belt for the future.
All the best,
Dan.
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- sounds as if you're ready to go back on the road;
Funny, I just took the Fearless Nomad out for maybe a quarter mile, just up the little road that the bike shop uses too for test rides. Just great fun to have a bike that works!
On my 20 mile ride this morning I noticed a little stiffness at one point in the shifting after just a mile or two. It starting getting worse it a sort of one step forward two steps back kind of way. By about mile 12 the shifting was just nasty. I could force it through most of the range so the riding wasn't bad, but the index was gone and so sometimes I would be a bit between gears so I worried about the hub.
Yeah now I don't have to be quite so fearful of that particular service operation! Though I am surely in no hurry to do it again!
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In several details my bike, which is only from 2010, does not match the Rohloff videos. The Rohloff manual that came with my bike seems to match the details of my bike, i.e. is different than the videos. At the bottom of the title page of my manual appears "WS 2.13E 2008-02".
One Rohloff video shows the shifter rubber grip sliding off as a separate piece from the actual cable pulley. On my bike the rubber grip and the cable pulley are one piece.
The Rohloff video that shows how to route the cables through the shifter... it shows some pieces that slide out of the shifter and into which the cable housing ends fit. On my bike those interface parts are screwed in. When those parts are removed, you can turn the shifter and see where the cable ends fit into the pulley. That business in the video about turning between 6 and 7 doesn't seem to apply.
I just left the existing cable housings on my bike and replaced only the cables. I wonder how often these parts need to be replaced.
On pg 110 of my manual, under Repairs: 3. Changing the grip rubber, there is a POINTER:
"The shifter cables have to be removed from the twist shifter first before it is possible to replace the rubber grip. Before the shifter cables are removed, the ends that were clamped in the female connectors (internal gear mech) or the cable pulley (external gear mech) must be cut so that the frayed ends of these cables to not damage the nylon liners when being removed."
Ooops, I didn't see this in time! My ends weren't too frayed so I hope they didn't do much damage! But anyway this pointer is good evidence that putting in a new cable doesn't usually require new cable housings.
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Thanks Jim for your sensible suggestion to identify the point of friction - glad to see you resolved it one relatively short burst of productivity, graphically documented - we really went through the up and downs :) . Haven't brought myself to investigate closely as yet - a w/end job, no doubt more protracted, though doubtlessly due to mindset!
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Hi All!
Having read of Jim's recent troubles and Fred's upcoming service, I thought I'd share my travel version of Rohloff's recommended EX shifter cable-cutting guide tube. Cable replacement isn't too bad in the comfort of home, but it might not be so easy in field conditions. so it seems wise to carry a guide and spare cables while on an extended tour.
Mine is just a 200mm length of 1/8" tempered aluminum tubing from the hobby store (like Jim's brass), covered in red heat-shrink tubing for visibility to prevent loss and to avoid oxide transfer to my bags, capped with yellow vinyl thread protectors to protect my panniers from the sharp ends. I store it in the Rohloff oil change kit I take with me on-tour, including the Rohloff flushing oil, lubricating oil, syringe, siphon tube, and drain bolt in the kit's zip-top plastic bag. Of course, I take a small, very sharp pair of SunTour cable cutters with me so I can trim the new cables cleanly to length at the end of the guide tube.
I also take everything Andy Blance recommends carrying on the road in Living with a Rohloff: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf , pg.22. For my Nomad Mk2's EX shiftbox, this includes:
• 2, 2,5, 3, and 5mm chrome-vanadium allen keys on the multi-tool in my underseat bag.
• 8mm box spanner, also included on the Thorn eccentric BB tool also in my underseat bag
• Chain lubricant bottle in the underseat bag.
• Grease in my pannier tool bag.
• Tork TX20 key in my underseat bag...I went for a Torx bit; the end fits the 8mm socket on the Thorn BB tool.
• Oil change kit 8410 in my pannier tool bag.
• Sprocket tool 8501
• A section of extra chain
• No spare sprocket 'cos mine is still new, but it can be reversed using the Speocket tool 8501
• Spare spokes (inside the seat post)
• Complete (pair) of shifter cables
Of course, I take other tools as well, but these are Rohloff-specific.
Andy reminds readers (capitalized for emphasis)...ROHLOFF AND THORN PROVIDE EXCELLENT CUSTOMER CARE BUT WE BOTH CONSIDER IT IRRESPONSIBLE TO UNDERTAKE AN EXTENDED TOUR, WITHOUT APPROPRIATE TOOLS and/or CRITICAL SPARES.
Rohloff and Thorn will no longer provide free remote support to tourists who don't have [the recommended items for self-service on the road].
He adds...If one, or more, of the above items are required for a repair and have not been carried -- neither ROHLOFF nor THORN will be able to provide remote support -- unless the customer agrees to pay, by PayPal, for those necessary spares or tools. Be warned, carriage could be very expensive!
Andy and Thorn have done a great favor to tourists in publishing this list (which varies for bikes with the internal shifter); the Rohloff requires little maintenance, so it makes even more sense to carry the tools and parts needed to repair any unexpected problems as well as those needed to perform routine maintenance while away from home and regular supply chains. With touring season upon us, it is a good reminder to carry all you might need and so Thorn and/or Rohloff can help if needed.
Best,
Dan. (...whose motto is "Be Prepared")
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I cut a plastic drinking straw to 200mm.
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Thanks for that info on field servicing, Dan! My recent experience definitely got me thinking about how quickly my problem arose and what would I do out in the middle of nowhere. The whole cable replacement operation was a lot less painful than I had feared! Certainly being out in a snowstorm or something wouldn't help, but maybe by then I will have done it a few more times and it will be even easier.
Where do you carry the spare cables? Bring cable cutters along or pre-cut the cables? With pre-cut, those cut ends would need to be protected. I barely escaped disaster... I didn't get a cable end properly inserted on the first try into that little hole on the pulley, and one strand started to fray. I managed to coax it back into line and got the whole cable end cleanly inserted on the second try. Once those strands start getting their own ideas, things get out of hand so quickly!
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Here is an article that just appeared on tool kits:
http://sheldonbrown.com/on-road-repairs.html (http://sheldonbrown.com/on-road-repairs.html)
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I cut a plastic drinking straw to 200mm.
<nods> That should work nicely, Mickeg! After all, it is really just a measuring tool, and needn't be more robust than necessary. It is the 200mm figure that gets one close plus another mm or two, since the cutter jaws can't get exactly to the end -- that's where the adjusters take up a smidge of extra slack.
Jim, when carrying spare cables, I carry them in pairs and tightly coiled-woven. If you do this,do use care when opening them, as I managed to have an end swipe across my eye in 2011 when it came loose unexpectedly. I store them on edge in my tools and spares bag in my panniers, usually next to the cardboard card with the spare pump leather for my stove. They ride nicely and don't try to nibble holes through my bags,always a concern with lots of vibration on rough roads.
For day rides, once could always get by riding home in a single gear or manually changing using the BB tool, which I carry in my underseat bag (it has an 8mm socket cutout as well as the 15mm pedal wrench). For long tours, I try to weigh the inconvenience against the small amount of extra weight and always end up carrying my spares even though I rarely if ever use them, as the bike is always in good nick before I leave.
Since I haven't undone the original cables and am therefore not sure what length I'll need, I plan to cut a fresh set when needed. With a derailleur setup, it wasn't as critical to cut the ends to length, but in this case, I'll toss in my lightweight but very sharp SunTour cable cutters to do a clean job of it. As for the ends...I always take a small bottle of beta-cyanoacrylate "super glue" to keep the cut cable ends from fraying. Very hand for a number of things on-tour: broken fingernails, filling cuts in tires, attaching little bits and pieces that may vibrate off, and even as an emergency thread-locker (apply and let dry; the dried acrylic adds friction to the threads). Handy stuff.v
Looking forward to John Allen's next installment. Thanks, Jim!
Best,
Dan.
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Just to conclude, cable and housing swap out completed just now as I had no use for the RST last week. Was a predictably long job, primarily due to having to drive a few miles to get a Torx 20 driver - then a pause for the last hour of the TDF. All in all it probably took me around 4 hours as I realised I didn't have decent cable cutters - another sortie to local shops, needlessly (and fruitlessly) as it turned out. I worked around this by threading the cables through the barrel connectors (?) and taping the connectors so they didn't slip down whilst marking the length of the cable cut. Then cut with a pair of pliers, fraying predictably which meant I could have never threaded them through the barrel connectors cut as they were. All in all, less painful than fitting a pair of mudguards to the RST, probably the most laborious maintenance exercise I'd ever previously done.
All running smoothly though I fear I have managed to strip the allen key socket on one of the barrel connectors, so will need to buy a new set in case! Ultimately think the problem was caused by rusting of cable housing, as the originals had the plastic housing removed at point of the frame guides, and were rusting considerably.
I actually found the SJS clip below to be the most comprehensive guide to the whole process, which also circumvents the need to spend £20+ on a cable gizmo as per the original Rohloff. Thanks everyone for your help and advice.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKwpd2VSDP4
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Hi Fred!
Congratulations on a job well done, and thanks for the link to the video you found most helpful of the lot. This will help all who follow you.
As for the cutting (and fraying) of the cable, you have my sympathies. I've found the best means to avoid it is to use a pair of very sharp, v-jawed bypass cutters that approach the cable from four sides on cutting and do a very clean and neat job of it. My 1982-vintage SunTour cutters are lightweight enough to be my touring take-alongs, but too light for cutting housing. That task falls to my Felco cutters, which I think would cut cleanly through anything.
I never loan my tools, but that goes in spades for my v-jaw bypass cable and housing cutters. I lost a beloved pair once when someone carelessly dropped them on a concrete floor and ruined the jaws. Even regrinding and re-tempering them didn't bring them back to the way they were.
After cutting my cables, I put a tiny drop of beta-cyanoacrylate super glue on the cut ends so they won't spread and fray. This seems to work very well for keeping the cable neat after cutting for easy threading and clamping -- so much so, I have often been able to re-use the same cable after removing it from its clamp for component service.
Hopefully, the task will be done for you for a very long time to come, since you also went the very wise route of replacing the obviously worn housings while you were at it. Good on ya! I'll bet the shifting feels truly like new!
In future, you can replace your stripped allen grub screws with headed allens and this may well ease cable detachments/attachments when it is cold and your hands are a bit numb. I believe our Freddered did that when he changed his in '08.
Thanks for the "rest of the story" and followup tips, Fred; nice job, aided by Le Tour coverage!
All the best,
Dan. (...who is mournful because now Lance is out, US OTA TV has so far only shown Stage Two -- and that's it :'( )
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Cheers Dan, appreciated. Yes, I will definitely invest in a pair of said cutters asap - I missed my opportunity to purchase on Sunday morning, not having watched the video in its entirety, or having given it any real thought other than having been fixated on resolving the Torx screwdriver shortage! Very handy tips also - I suspect my cables won't last another 8 years the way they got cut, but I'll be much better prepared next time around.
Never thought I'd see the words "mournful because Lance is out" in close juxtaposition :-) in one of your posts - very sorry to hear that the American public has been robbed of one of the greatest sporting spectacles of the world because of a career of doping - I'm sure another more worthwhile hero will emerge soon to restore the faith, and at least you have an idol of undoubted integrity as a more recent winner (Lemond) than the long-suffering French!
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Never thought I'd see the words "mournful because Lance is out" in close juxtaposition :-) in one of your posts
Only by accident and happenstance, Fred! This...person...has now cost me my over-the-air Tour coverage by inference and -- Man! -- that strikes home! I wish so much he would just.go.away. Reminds me of a buzzing fly at a picnic, no longer welcome at the table. Good to see some very able riders blowing up in the mountains this year as more proof they are undoped.
Back to cables and cutting same. Those cable-specific cutters bring just unbelievably good results effortlessly, making what had been a dreaded job into much more of a pleasure. When the strands are cut in a double-v jaw-set, they tend to crimp together at the ends instead of splaying and all the lost time and frustrating effort that would otherwise follow is avoided. They are worth it for that alone!
For those who have written to ask, my do-all pair of cable *and* casing cutters are these: http://www.amazon.com/Loos-Cableware-Felco-Cable-Cutter/dp/B0038YY3QC...with more about them here: http://www.felcostore.com/item/f-c7?referer=wirecablecutters The price varies wildly among vendors; here's one of the pricier ones: http://www.treefortbikes.com/product/333222376283/289/Felco-C7-Cable-Cutters.html
Park's and Pedro's are also very good and more widely available in bike shops. The Felcos are more often found online and in hardware stores, at least here in the States. You do have to start them "square" and squeeze smoothly and quickly or they can leave a tag end on the cut cable housing, but that caution applies to all similar cutters. I always grind or power-sand the ends of the housing square and flat after cutting.
My lightweight cable-only cutters (and end-cap crimpers) I take along on tours are the SunTours shown here: http://velobase.com/ViewTool.aspx?ID=934c5731-46b0-49e8-a7f9-3d48d31c0bf4&AbsPos=0 Sadly, no longer available since Maeda Ironworks-SunTour's demise. The reviewer is correct; keep them out of others' hands or they get bent backwards, breaking the spring. Same phenomenon that compels people to squeeze the brake levers of showroom bicycles.
All the best,
Dan. (...who is feeling the pangs of being Tour Deprived this year and would very much like to see a French winner someday soon; only fair!)
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Here's the link to those cutters (Dan got too many characters in there!)
http://www.amazon.com/Loos-Cableware-Felco-Cable-Cutter/dp/B0038YY3QC (http://www.amazon.com/Loos-Cableware-Felco-Cable-Cutter/dp/B0038YY3QC)
I used a nice pair of Park cutters that seemed to work well enough.
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Dan got too many characters in there!
Thanks, Jim! ;D
Best,
Dan. (...who has been recycling too many electrons and had some left over ;))