Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: freddered on February 05, 2006, 12:57:30 AM
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Today I handed over £1345.99 to Adrian at SJSC for my new Thorn Raven Tour. I am expecting delivery in 2-3 weeks and I thought I'd record the ownership process from the start in case anyone else was considering buying one.
I've owned a British Eagle Touristique (700c, Reynolds 531ST Tourer) for about 19 years. I've added various bits over the years but it's basically simliar to a Dawes Galaxy (Drop Bars and STI levers). Until the advent of the Rohloff Ravens I was set on buying an XTC but, with 100 day money-back 'guarantee', it seems crazy not to try the Raven.
Internet browsing revealed many glowing reports about the Rohloff/Ravens with many "I'd never go back to Derailleur" comments. So I set off to Bridgewater with a wad of £20 notes.
Arrived at 08:45 on Saturday and was met by Adrian D. He guided me and my Touristique (brought for measurement purposes) through the Labrynth of passageways to the Showroom. SJSC premises uses some form of TARDIS technology I assume.
Note. I just realised that people from outside the UK may not know about TARDIS (Time And Relative Dimensions In Space)technology. Put briefly this is a fairly old technology that allows you to squeeze a large internal space/room inside a much smaller external space. It's been available in the UK since the 1960's (but only in Black and White). Try to think of a Telephone Kiosk on the outside and a Burger-King restaurant on the inside or, even better, George W Bush's small head on the outside and a vast, empty space on the inside.
I think once you choose to enter the showroom you will always leave with a much reduced bank balance, the bikes on show REALLY are as nice as you imagined. I had to restrain myself to buying just the one.
We measured my existing setup and sat on some showroom bikes to establish what size raven Frame was a good fit. We spent time changing Handlebar stems to establish reach and so on until I felt comfortable.
My first decision (and there are many, nice ones of course)was between the Tour and the Sport Tour. The main difference, it appears to me, is that the Tour has the potential to become a real Mule if required. Right now I don't need a bike capable of lugging a ton of luggage along unmetalled roads to Mongolia but the Raven Tour could be easily upgraded (Mainly Tyres and a steel Rack) to do so. The Sport Tour being slightly tighter geometry can not accomodate the same amount of Luggage (Pannier/Heel clearance) or 'extreme' Touring tyres (such as 2" Schwalbes). Therefore I chose the Raven Tour, albeit in a fairly lightweight, option package. I think it's fairly 'Future Proof'.
The next decision was between Drops and Flat bars. I really really wanted to stick with drop bars, I almost never go down to the drops but I like riding stretched out on the hoods and find the hoods the best grip for out-of-the-saddle climbing. However, the Rohloff shifter position for drops is always a poor compromise if you are used to STI levers. Maybe for those used to Bar-end or downtube shifters the accessory bar option may be even better than your existing set-up.
I have selected the standard swept 'Comfort Bar' with stubby Carbon Bar-Ends mounted 'inboard' to try and replicate my Brake Hoods and stubby Cane Creek Bar-Ends mounted 'Outboard' for climbing. They seemed like a good option during my 'fitting' but the proof of the pudding will be after days in the saddle.
The benefits of this Bar set-up are clear, you get convenient 'Grip Shift' gear changing and full V-Brake power at your fingertips. Remember, it's fairly easy to swap in a pair of Drops if that is the only issue.
I won't go into Frame sizes, gearing..etc as that is only relevant to me. I did however make a note of the Gear Ratios I use most and selected a chainring/sprocket set-up to match.
The most difficult decision of course was the colour (how pathetic, I know). I went thinking Blue and eventually went for Green.
I then went for a spin on a demo Sport Tour (just to check the Rohloff wasn't a big mistake). Obviously a ride round a flat park in freezing weather wasn't a full test but it convinced me to proceed. The hub whirrs exactly like a wind-up toy in 7th and I could feel it doing its stuff though my feet, it was however silent in 8th - 14th and had some faint noise (I mean really faint) in some gears below 7th. HOWEVER !!! Only 7th gear came close to the sound of the chain rubbing against my current front Derailleur mech when I've been caught out by a hill and not had time to perform a front & back change. I can't see anyone ever being caught out with a Rohloff in this way.
So that's it so far. The 'fitting' session was great and I never felt pushed to buy, all the options were explained and/or demonstrated on showroom stock, I got to ride a similar bike to the one I wanted and I get to send it back if I don't lke it after nearly 3 months trial. I don't see how it can go wrong really.
Over the next 19 years I am really hoping to love the bike (when I get used to the hub and flat bars) but if it doesn't end up offering much more than my current 19 year old bike then there is no point in keeping it and I won't. I would probably end up with an XTC in this case.
Watch this space for updates, opinions, photos and so on.
Fred
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Sounds good Fred, that's going to seem a long 2/3 weeks. What are the £250 worth of upgrades?
I bought mine over the phone, if I'd gone to Bridgewater I think I'd still be paying for it.
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Carbon Bar-Ends
Cane Creek Bar-Ends
Shimano Deore Brake Upgrade
Pedals (an upgrade from not having any)
Zefal Pump
Accessory Bar for Cycle Computer/GPS
Blackburn Rack
2x Bottle Cages
Black Anodised Rohloff finish.
Delivery Charge
I know from experience of my MTB that I can't do without Bar-Ends for any long rides, just too uncomfortable, so they were my only real luxury. The Black finish on the hub just seemed like a sensible long-term investment. The Deore Brake Upgrade was recommended on some Review and the rest is stuff I can't do without. It all adds up I guess but there's no point in going this far and then skimping (If there was a Ha'peth of Tar Upgrade then I would have gone for that also).
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They all look like sensible options to me. Have you used the Crane creek bar ends before? I like the look of them, but haven’t come across anyone that's used them.
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No, I haven't used Cane Creek bar-ends before. SJSC have a pair fitted to a loose pair of handlebars so you can feel what they are like when fitted but, without running around the showroom and pretending I was riding a bike , that's as near as I got.
I know my normal MTB Bar-Ends are great for climbing (even to the point of wheelying on extreme gradients) but the are useless for standing up in the pedals and climbing. They put your weight in-front of the handlebars and it feels very unstable. The Cane Creeks put your weight right at the end of the bars but with something to grab hold of. They felt right in the shop and I've read lots of good things about them for this very purpose. Will know for sure in a few weeks.
Will post updates on them here after I take delivery.
The next 3 weeks is going to really drag..I can feel it.
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Hello!
I sympathise with your bank balance and impatience, because I am awaiting postal deliveray of my mail ordered bike!
Peter
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Another good thing about the 'fitting' session was the availability of a selection of rims/tyre combinations. I'm sure you've all read about Sun Rhynos and Schwalbe Marathons being the heavyweight combination for extreme tourists, well you get the chance to hold that option and compare it to a lighter Mavic/Panaracer combo for example. Gives you a chance to appreciate the difference and, in my case, go for a lighter option. I'm sure a World Tourist would be just as excited by the heavyweight stuff though. I can't imagine breaking a Rhyno/Schwalbe wheel after holding one.
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Question (from email) and a reply:
==> QUESTION
I've just read your post on buying a Thorn Raven, it was very helpful thanks.
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> I'm also considering buying a Raven but can't decide between the Tour & Sport Tour models, so was interested in your approach of going for a Tour without the heavy weight options.
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> I had a quick spin on a Sport Tour before Christmas and found it to be pretty lively with surprisingly fast steering, but was unable to try the Tour because they didn't have a suitable test bike available. Unfortunately SJS are at the other end of the country from me so I can't easily pop back.
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> If you can spare the time, I'd be very grateful if you could answer the following questions to help me with my decision.
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> Did you get to ride a Tour as well as Sport Tour? How well do they compare?
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> What wheels & tyres did you go for?
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> Did you follow the SJS recommendation of having 'considerable standover clearance' on the frame? They suggested that the bike I rode (561L size) was about right for me (I'm 6' tall with average proportions) but it did seem like there was rather too much seat post showing.
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> Like you I don't intend carrying much weight, so the Sport Tour would probably suit me fine, but the Tour sounds much more versatile which is important at that price - can't justify two!
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> On the other hand I don't want to spend all that money and end up with a heavy bike that is OK but nothing special to ride.
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I didn't ride a Tour, just the Sport Tour.
I'm used to a fairly Long Lazy 700c Tourer and I don't need super quick handling although I wouldn't be bothered if I got it.
I went for Sun CR18 and Panaracer Hi Road 1.5" to keep things rolling quickly. (I use Hi Roads on my MTB and they transformed it).
The Cycling Reviews on the Thorn Pages are done on the Tour rather than the Sport Tour I think and they all say it's fairly nippy.
I hear that there is only a Pound or two difference in weight between similarly equipped models. It's cheaper to lay off the Beer for a week or two if you are bothered by that.
I got a 537L (5'10") Standover is fine, more than my 700c and less than my MTB. Seemed fine.
The only reason I didn't get the Sport Tour (the extra 200 quid isn't really an issue on a potential bike for life) was the issue about carrying 'full-size' panniers. We tried some big Carradice Paniers on it and my heels caught on them (Size 9 feet). If it could carry big luggage I would have got one (as 1.75" tyres would have been plenty).
Since I don't carry big luggage right now it may seem like a crazy option but check out the Brochure for the EXP (not Raven), go to the very end and tell me you don't secretly like the look of the fully-loaded bike. I want that option available to me. Huge tyres, if I really want them, are also an option.
Anyway, ask them if you can return the Tour for a Sport Tour if you don't like it (& Vice Versa). They seem pretty good about that sort of thing.
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I talked to SJS yesterday and they have convinced me that a Sport Tour is likely to be able to cope with all of my needs, though I need to consider the pannier clearance issue you mention as I have size 11 feet.
They also say it would be OK to swap a Tour for a Sport Tour if I don't get on with it, so it looks like the Tour is a no risk option and is usefully cheaper as the Sport Tour stretches my budget somewhat.
Decisions...
Yes the fully loaded EXP looks good, sexy even but I'm quite happy to look at someone elses as I really don't fancy hauling that type of weight around.
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Me as well! money handed over, hours on the phone, I'm a long way from sjsc! my Raven Sport Tour is due to arrive next Friday, took me 5 months of research before deciding this is for me, the 100 days is a comfort, but i cant see me really taking them up on it, the red frame and black rohloff and Schmidt SON in black will still be captivating me this time next year.
Lets keep each other posted on our impressions/experiences? if i spend any time on a pc after the 24th.
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If I may add to your thread, freddered, I'd like to add my impression of buying a Thorn Raven. I went down to SJS Cycles last Saturday to try one out and discuss the options.
SJS Cycles is an odd place to visit. It occupies what looks to be two terraced houses, with a reception / small showroom containing a few bikes at the front. Not very impressive you might think.
When you ask about the Ravens, a chap comes through from the back and leads you through to the main showroom. To get there you go through what looks to be a dispatch area, then a bike building area, then a large warehouse stuffed to the ceiling with all sorts of weird and wonderful bike components, then out of the back and into another building, up a ramp, through another bike building area, into the Thorn showroom which had about 20 solos and tandems on display. This was all a little odd. TARDIS technology indeed. In fact the whole day was a bit surreal.
They have a small amount of bikes there to try out. From previous discussions with them, I knew that the Thorn Raven Tour would be the most suitable for me, mainly due to the lack of heel clearance with panniers on the Sport Tour. I had a go on the Raven Tour that they had available - there aren't any hills around the shop, but there is a small park behind the houses across the street and there are plenty of suburban roads to cycle around.
I spent about 20 minutes pootling about, trying out the Rohloff hub and various gear changes with it. As I wrote in the other thread, the Rohloff is a bit odd - especially the noise and feedback through the pedals. In some of the gears it feels a bit 'ratchety' or 'clicky', especially 5th and 7th. On the other hand, the gear changes are clean and easy (only one changer to think about), and I'm attracted by the ease of cleaning and maintenance of the hub over derailleur gears. Whilst 20 minutes on a bike that isn't specifically set up for you isn't really enough to decide on whether a bike is perfect, I was impressed enough with the hub and the handling / ride of the bike to commit to giving it a go. With the 100 day satisfaction guarantee, there isn't much that can go wrong really.
Once I'd decided that the Raven Tour was the bike for me (at least to trial for 100 days), there was then the small issue of deciding on all the options. This felt more like a chat about bike components in the pub than actually buying anything. There was absolutely no sales pressure, and Dan, the sales guy, seemed like the most unlikely salesman I've ever met. Having said that, he succeeded in getting me to part with just over 1600 quid. We worked our way through the options, some of which are on the standard form, and some of which were a bit more unusual.
For those interested, I ended up going for a green frame (I liked the understated look of this), ceramic rims, Panaracer Pasela TG tyres, a Schmidt hub (which I'm going to buy a Solidlights 1203D for), Thorn comfort bars with inboard bar-ends and Ergon grips, Terry Fly saddle, Blackburn rack, Pitlock skewers (as so much of the price is in the wheels / hubs, I'm trying to keep them attached to the bike for as long as possible), and various other bits and pieces.
As I said above, it was all a bit surreal, partly due to the odd shop layout, partly because of the lack of conventional salesmanship, and partly as it's the first time I've bought a bike and not left with it on the day. The down side is that they said it would take a couple of weeks to build it up and deliver it. But I got a phone call yesterday to say that it's being delivered on Monday.
I'll let you all know how it goes when it arrives.
Cheers.
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My eight-day-old Raven sport-tour, with top of the range drive & brake sets and all the anti-theft devices I could think of, is tremendous : very quick, comfortable, secure, light to carry. Everything works well in heavy rain, but I haven't yet had the opportunity to try it on snow or ice. Even the Brooks B17 saddle (which I think is one of their most humble models) is becoming bearable! I now happily take longer commuting routes, merely for the pleasure.
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It arrived !!
1) It looks lovely. Dark Green, very understated.
2) It's lighter than I imagined, a bit heavier at the back than 'normal' maybe but nothing noticeable. I really don't understand the quest to save a pound or two on a bike of this type.
3) It handles like a dream. Maybe it's the flat bars (I am used to drops), the 1.5" tyres (I am used to 700x28), the twin-plate forks (they look the business) or the whole combination but I was cornering much faster and diving into them a lot more. Very reassuring ride.
4) Gears 8 and above are silent, combined with the lack of chain-slap over pot-holes and the 'fat' tyres means it's like a magic carpet ride. I can see why people cross continents on them. It's all very relaxing compared to my 700c Tourer (which I always thought was a relaxed ride). Freewheeling is VERY noisy, I hope this will get quieter as the ratchet/pawl wears in, it's much more irritating than any noise generated by pedalling the hub.
5) Gear 7 is noisy, no secret there. I can also feel it vibrating/whirring through my SPDs. No way can this amount of noise and vibration be efficient, I think I may just avoid 7th (there are many gears I don't use on my derailleur of course). 1st Gear is 18" !!! Even my old MTB doesn't go this low. I dread arriving at the hill that forces me into 1st. (My 1st on Tourer is 27". That's 4th gear on the Thorn !!! I've never had to get off and push but it's been very close and I've zig-zagged up a few hills before now). I tried 1st gear on the flat and it's sub-walking pace, more of a balancing act. Maybe when I'm loaded up with camping gear it will come into it's own. It's fair to say it has low gears. 14th gear is 95" which I think will top out fairly easily downhill. This doesn't bother me too much. If it does then I'll get a bigger chainring and trade 1st gear for a higher top end. Going up steep hills hurts more than going down them so we'll see.
6) I did 14 miles and my legs are aching a lot more than they should, I suspect the saddle position/height and bar position is wrong for me. I'll spend next few days getting that set right. I rode it straight out of the box virtually, too excited to set it up.
7) V-Brakes actually stop me unlike the things on my tourer. I used to think ahead like the Captain of an Oil-Tanker.
8) Twist-Grip is not my favourite method of shifting but this is a good example of it. Nice Grip and very light action. I had a tendency to shift 2 gears at a time but this is my first hour on the bike (remember there are 14 gears availabe in half a turn of your wrist). You should always try to remember how forgiving you are of derailleur. If it was the other way around (Derailleur replacing Rohloff) and you were told that the order of your gears was 2 clicks up on the right and 1 click down on the left (ease off a bit while it engages and be prepared for the chain to fall off and get wedged behind the crank every so often, plus the rattle of chain against cage in some gears and DON'T use the 'forbidden' combinations) you would think it was a bad joke.
I'll know for sure this time next week as I will fit my computer, set bike up correctly and go out round a known circuit.
Verdict so far - Quality Item, quality feel. Relaxed continent crosser ? No doubt about it.
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Hi Freddered,
I'm glad that your Raven has arrived and that it is living up to expectations. Let us know how you find it once you have got it properly setup.
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quote:
Originally posted by freddered
I'll know for sure this time next week as I will fit my computer, set bike up correctly and go out round a known circuit.
Sounds good so far, we want the photos[;)]
It took me a while to get the best out of the gearing, it does require you to think different, or maybe not to think so much. Changing down well before junctions and getting into the right gear at the bottom of a long hill are ingrained. No longer having to think ahead and always being in the right gear more than compensates for that slight loss of efficiency in the lower range (if it exists). Just watch out when you ride a Derailleur after you’ve become used to the Rohloff, I frequently get caught out.
When I first got mine it was slightly slower over my 14 mile commute, not drastically, but regularly an extra 5 minuets. After a month I'd gained that back and have got faster since.
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Hi Freddered,
Congratulation. I wish you many happy miles together
Your post is an excellent summery of the raven.
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Latest update.
I got the Raven on my Mag Trainer last night and did some adjusting. I noticed that the saddle on the Raven was set a few inches further back from the bottom bracket than my Tourer (ie. A vertical line from nose of saddle was further from bottom bracket and nearer back wheel). I have pushed saddle forward on rails to compensate. This may explain the aching legs as I am obviously used to being over the pedals more. Also I fitted my Brooks B11 saddle.
This is my first threadless stem and it's great (if you take heed of Note 1 below). I have an accessory bar fitted (for computer and GPS) and I was able to drop height of bars, raise accessory bar in about 2 minutes. What a great idea. Now here comes Note 1.
Note 1. Threadless stems are great IF !!!.. you ask SJSC to leave the stem long and pack it with lots of spacers. (I did this and I have lots of options now, including room for another accessory bar if required). I have tried to think why you would not leave at least some room for adjustment and options....etc, but I can't. These are 'expedition' bikes where options are always welcome. You have been warned, once it's cut it stays cut.
Cane Creek Bar Ends - They seem perfect for intended purpose of climbing out of saddle and provide a nice, soft, flat hand-position for relaxed riding. However, I stripped the allen-key head trying to re-tighten one of them after adjusting it. They need to be quite tight and the key is a small one. I replaced it with a 8mm bolt and it's fine. Note, they make the bars VERY wide when used with Comfort Bars (my drops are VERY narrow so it may be my perception only).
The carbon bar-end mounted in-board are great, very comfy fit and work like mini-Tri-Bars.
Because the Grip-shift takes up a lot of room the right hand Bar-end is pushed too far (for me) around the curve of the bars. I had to squash the gripshift against the foam grip to gain an inch or so. Now the bar-ends are in a more upright position and suit me better. I think another option it to swap them over, use them upside-down so they flare out rather than in. Then you could mount them on the inner bar without issue. Someone else can try that.
Rotating the comfort bars has the effect of adjusting both height and reach so it's possible to fine tune very easily.
Note 2 - If Batman had handlebars they would look like my handlebars.
So this is adjustment #1 completed. I still have another 2 inches of stem available if I need to drop bars any further.
I'll try to stick some photos up on Pbase or somewhere as I know I was desperate for images/options when I was thinking of buying one.
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I'd love to see some photos, it would be very useful. thanks.
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Here are some photos of it straight out of the box. Small photos but I just quickly set up a freebie web site.
http://www.geocities.com/freddered1/THORN.html
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Thanks for posting the pics. They must be popular - only up for 40 mins and already getting the 'data transfer exceeded' message.
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Hi Freddered
Nice looking bike ........ I bet you're pleased!![:D]
Can you tell me what sort of space grip you are using underneath the stem ....... it's a great idea if you want extra lights, computer etc. I have not seen one used in this position before!
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It's from SJSC. Search on 'Accessory' on their parts web page http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm
PS. I have since swapped the Accessory bar and Handlebars. The Handlebars are now a couple of inches lower and the Accessory Bar sits nicely on top for Computer. I still have room for another one underneath, maybe perfect for a couple of Lights.
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Thanks for that!! ....... I may decide on using this as I will probably need more space for extras!
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Hello from Down Under.
I collected my new Raven Sports Tour from Customs on Wednesday 22 February. It has been a pleasure to deal with SJS Cycles. It took me less than 48 hours to make the decision and then Adrian rang me home to assist me with the choice of accessories. The bike was very well packed and after reading all the manuals it didn't take me long to put it together.
With a black matt frame and a red speedhub I call it RED BACK (look it up, this is one of the most venomous spider in Australia and my farm shed is full of it).
Jenny, my neighbour, finds the bike beautiful. There you have it: no need to own a Ferrari or Alfa Romeo to impress the girls...
My first impressions: it is fast, the steering is very responsive and the speedhub is a delight to use; I love it.
I 'll post my point of view regarding the so called "weaknesses" on the Rohloff specific forum.
My advice: Just do it, spoil yourself and get one. You will feel ten years younger (it counts when like me you are dangerously close to 60).
Arnaud
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Yesterday was my first chance to do any miles (33miles), it was just above freezing and blowing a gale from all directions so not the ideal day to make any meaningful comparisons.
The one comparison I can make is the handlebars. I got very bad tingling (pins & needles) and slight numbness in my left hand towards the end of the ride. I got round this by using the inboard bar-ends more (but high-winds make this precarious). The bars do give you lots of control in high winds but they also make you susceptible to them.
OK, the infamous 7th gear. I found myself using either 6th or 8th because I don't see any advantage of using 7th. I freely admit that it may be psychological (given the whirring effect) but any advantage of dropping from 8th to 7th seems to be lost in mechanical activity. Same for changing up from 6th to 7th, there doesn't seem to be any gain.
Reminds me of riding an exercise bike in fact. Once again, 8 and above are silent and well spaced. All gears are rock solid without any fear of slipping. Gripshift works well (but is not as convenient as STI/Drop bars).
So, after 1st week of ownership (Thorn Raven Tour) my current verdict is 7 out of 10. If you like riding Flat Bars and need a rock-solid handling bike to carry luggage over a variety of road surfaces, at a moderate pace, you'd probably score it 10 out of 10 (Fit some fat Schwalbe Marathons, sit back and enjoy the scenery).
Will post another review in a couple more weeks (after a warmer, less windy day).
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News just in on the issue of Rohloff effficiency.
http://www.ihpva.org/pubs/HP52.pdf
This compares a variety of bike transmissions and their efficiency.
The Rohloff IS less efficient than the Derailleur in this report BUT not by as much as I imagined. Across all gears the Derailleur is around 93% efficient and the Rohloff around 90.5% (this is a rough average as you will see each gear varies for both systems).
2.5% will slow you from 20mph to 19.5mph (as a very basic example).
This does not take into account my swap from 700x28 tyres to 26x1.5 tyres. It does not take into account my new, more upright riding position (Flats rather than drops). I suspected I am 1mph down on average (although high winds made it difficult to be sure) therefore there is probably a 5% cumulative negative effect of gears/tyres/position (for me that is, if you already ride fatter tyres and sit more upright then disregard this).
I have a 200 mile day ride planned this summer. 5% equates to 10 miles which is a big chunk of an hour at the pace I'll be travelling.
Can I afford to add an hour to a trip which is on my limits ? Watch this space for more comments. You must also consider that I can't see a lot of my rear derailleur at the moment due to the congealed mass of grease and dirt covering it. I doubt if it's operating quite as efficiently as those hub-gears in their nice clean oil-bath.
PS. Hats off to Rohloff for making it so efficient given the amount of stuff happening inside the hub.
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Hi freddered,
I know exactly what you mean 'Reminds me of riding an exercise bike'. However I do find that I travel faster in 7 than in 6. Over all I believe my Raven is more efficient than my Trek 7700 (XT equip.). I cycle the same hilly route every day, I find that I am faster on the Raven and also less tired. Strangely it feel like I am travelling slower on the Raven. Don’t forget that you hub is still new – it takes a while for the gears to bed in.
PS I think that your calculations may be wrong. If you accept that air resistance is the major factor affecting speed then a 2.5 % efficiency reduction in the hub will drop speed by 0.6% (speed is proportional to inverse square of power). The true answer will be slightly higher than 0.6% and a lot lower than 2.5%.
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Addendum
A more upright ride position will have by far the biggest effect on overall mechanical efficiency (at speed). At slower speed an upright position has little effect on mechanical efficiency and is probably more efficient from a philological prospective.
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Obviously I knew that and I was just testing you...cough. Maybe the riding position/wind resistance is the main culprit.
I agree with the perception comment though, it does feel like it's moving slower. I think this may be the 'magic carpet ride' quality I mentioned previously.
Question, what was the spec of your TREK ? Flat Bars? What tyres ?
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Trek 7700 is a light aluminium hybrid (no suspension). 700c 1.5 Tyres XT equipment but FLAT bars! I've got drops on the Raven. The Trek is a really nice bike,I would, and have recommended it. It's just the Raven is better [:)]
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Bars Lowered, Accessory Bar raised, computer and GPS fitted. Works really well.
http://www.geocities.com/freddered1/bars.jpg
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I know what you're saying about not being able to have drops and a still use the changer well. It is IMO possible to get closer to some of the drop bar positions with narrow straight bars than with the comfort bars. The way mine are set up, the grips are almost the position as riding on the tops and the bar ends are close to the hoods position.
Even so, after a year I still miss not having a drops position, if anyone ever comes up with an STI/Ergo type shifter I'll be first in the queue.
my bike (http://"http://static.flickr.com/5/4622611_8e33a9fdf0.jpg?v=0")
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The Raven Tour evolves
Drops fitted, shifter mounted on accessory bar, new short stem fitted (original was too long for drops at 110mm, this is 50mm).
Check it out.
www.geocities.com/freddered1/drops1.jpg
www.geocities.com/freddered1/drops2.jpg
Out of the box
http://www.geocities.com/freddered1/bike_side.jpg
I've done a couple of 15 mile rides and I prefer it immediately. I'm not saying drops are better than flats, I'm just saying that I've got used to a certain style of riding that involves using the brake hoods for most of my riding and especially climbing out of saddle (if your thighs are strong enough to cope sat down then congratulations, mine aren't on some occasions).
Changing gear is less convenient than either STI levers or gripshift on Flat Bars. However, it's not that bad. If you plan on racing flat out then it is NOT an acceptable position for a shifter. The drops let me go back to my usual technique of standing up and 'stomping up' small inclines without bothering to change gear.
The new brake levers are OK, I can lock up the back wheel if required, not as effortlessly as with original 'flats' levers but it's more than adequate.
Also because I used new brake cables and left the old ones attached to original bars, I can swap the flats back in (for a family ride or rougher terrain maybe) in 10 minutes. Just a matter of sliding old stem/bars on, threading rear brake cable through guides and, if I want to, sliding gripshift back on. Best of both worlds I think.
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Freddered:
Are you going faster?
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Yes.
Actually only by a small amount and it's early days.
I have a 14 mile 'lunch time' circuit I do a couple of time a week. Immediately after fitting drops I did it 0.5mph Average quicker.
I don't actually care much about the increase because it could easily be down to wind direction...etc. The main improvement was that it FELT quicker and easier.
===>>> Here is some advice (only for riders who like drops). Get a Raven frame size suited to BOTH drops and flats at the time of purchase. In fact, consider buying both bars with correct fittings at time of purchase.
The advantage of flats is clear. Better control, better braking, convenience of shifting, ability to look around and sight-see.
The advantage of drops is not so clear unless you have grown up with them. They are quicker (or Lance Armstrong would use flats), they feel better climbinbg out of saddle and they give more hand positions.
If you have grown up with flats, fine, stick with them, they are better in most respects for general purpose riding. If you have spent 30 years bent over drops then I suggest you get an additional pair of flats you can quickly bolt in for leisurely riding with your family or for riding rough tracks around the world at 10mph with luggage.
Either way I think the bike is really growing on me. I just had to learn to ease off a bit.
Apart from Heads-down, Arse-up, racing cyclists I can't think of any reason why you wouldn't like this bike.
I've yet to hang my panniers of it but I think it will seem better the more luggage I put on it. (I haven't used 1st, 2nd or 3rd gear yet!!!)
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Did you have any problems getting the right height with the drops? Had the steering tube being cut?
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No, Steerer tube was left long just in case.
www.geocities.com/freddered1/drops2.jpg
originally it was for accessory bars but now I would never cut a steerer down on a general purpose bike. A long steerer gives you so many options (maybe at the expense of razor-sharp looks).
I just needed a shorter stem to compensate for reach.
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Hello,
I've owned the Raven Sport Tour for over a month now and done nearly 1.300km. I rode it on the first half of the Great Western Australian Bike Ride, between Albany and Margaret River, together with 2.500 other cyclists. There were only four Rohloff equipped bikes amongst the lot ! This bike is SUPERB. I felt like I was flying up the hills due to the ability to change gears at the right time and without any fuss.No maintenance whatsoever , apart from a few drops of oil on the chain, over the 700km trip. The bike mechanics were flat out adjusting derailleurs and fixing broken chains till well into the night. And the noise generated by the bikes of all those people desperately trying to change gears halfway up the hills...
Today I have retensioned the chain for the first time.During the ride a few connoisseurs commented on how nicely the frame was put together.
There is no way I'm returning this bike to SJS Cycles !
A very, very satisfied owner of a Raven Sport Tour.
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How long did the ride take you Arnaud. 2,500 Cyclists over 700km sounds - I bet there was a big party at the end!
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The ride took nine days. It was an eye opener for me, never seen so many cyclists in one place (I have travelled the Sahara extensively but never been to China or India !) Last year in Victoria they had over six thousand participants !!! Next year I'm doing the Tasmanian Ride. A small percentage were "gear freaks" but I would say the majority didn't have a clue about the use of gears and would have been better off with hub gears. Out of 2.600 participants there were only four Rohloff equipped bikes."Is this an automatic?","What about spare parts ?","It must be very heavy !" were some of the uninformed questions asked. A Rohloff equipped bike is like FRESH Extra Virgin Olive Oil: once you've tasted the real stuff you never go back to the rubbish they sell as extra Virgin in your favourite supermarket.Having said that I'm glad not every second bike runs on Rohloff; it gives a nice feeling to be part of a (well informed) minority.
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OK, back to original title of this thread, MY NEW RAVEN TOUR. I've had it for 6 weeks now and done about 250 miles on a few weekend leisure rides. The last ride was 73 miles over quite hilly North Hampshire (UK) terrain (my GPS said 117km and 1750m of ascent). The ride was mainly on country lanes typically strewn with gravel, branches, dead rabbits and the like. The weather was everything: sun, wind, rain, hail, a typical early April day and one that would reveal an unsuitable touring bike pretty quickly.
The Raven was superb really. The 1.5" Panaracer Hi-Roads gave a lot of comfort and confidence whilst coasting along quite quickly.
The Hub never missed a beat. Given the sudden changes in gradient it would be possible to get in a mess with derailleur changes but the Rohloff makes it all a lot calmer. Once it's in it never feels like slipping, very positive.
I never had to go below 4th gear (equivalent to 1st on my old Tourer!!) so it has a lot in reserve. Maybe I'll change a sprocket and trade 1st gear for a higher top end. 95" top end is not really high enough for me down hill. Maybe if I was carrying luggage then I wouldn't change it (but then for the price of a sprocket I can have both options).
All in all it's becoming more and more obvious that the hype is correct. I think it may be the perfect 'bike for life'. It's very comfy. It's very solid and sure on the road. It's a bit heavy and long as a result but that makes for a relaxed ride. It's built to carry you and a ton of luggage round the World but will do light day tours. It's absolutely silent in 8th and above, I mean really amazingly quiet. There's no skipping or crunching of gears. It will accomodate a huge range of tyres (Road and MTB) if required although the Hi-Roads are superb for general purpose riding.
For me there is only one drawback, the lack of an STI equivalent gear lever. The Accessory bar mounted one is better than my old downtube levers but not as good as my STI levers. I really wish I could click up/down whilst climbing out of the saddle with my hands on the hoods.
Come on you clever Germans, make me something suitable.
This is not the big issue it was at first, the positives outweigh this negative.
In another month I'm going to get my old Tourer out and go for spin to make a final comparison. To be honest I'm not missing it at all. When I walk in the garage they are next to each other and I know I'd pick the Raven now, it's just too comfortable.
Hope this helps someone make a decision.
I probably won't update this now until my 100 day trial is over. Will let you know the final outcome though.
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Update. Went on a 111 mile ride around Hants, Berks & Wilts to see how the bike and my body got on. It really was a terrible day for a long ride. Most of my circular route seemed to be into a headwind, only getting a tailwind on homeward 25 miles when I was totally knackered. I think I have been more knackered after a day in the saddle but I don't remember it.
The result was my bike being returned to SJSC for a frame with shorter top tube (537S as opposed to 537L).
Fitting the drops with a frame set-up for flats has problems:
1) The reach is too great with stem provided for flats.
2) Even a much shorter stem didn't bring bars back far enough and reduced the height of the bars causing bad neck/shoulder ache (admittedly after a long time in the saddle).
3) The short stem puts the top of the bars over the shifter (mounted on accessory bar) and makes it harder to access.
The proposed short frame will allow for longer stem to give height (as it slopes upward) and clearance for the shifter whilst still bringing bars a couple of cm closer.
Will find out later this week.
In the meantime I took the opportunity to ride my old British Eagle Touristique. This was a bike that, when purchased 20 years ago, felt smooth and comfortable after my road bike. Now it feels like a road bike, quite twitchy. In fact I got off to check wheels and tyres.
I guess that my 700x28c tyres always rode like that. It just shows how stable the Raven is on 26x1.5 tyres and what a nice ride a proportianally long wheelbase gives(I mean I can fit a pump between seat tube and mudguard!!!).
I was no faster on my old bike BUT it felt a lot faster. This can only be due to the way 700c wheels/tyres transmit bumps as it's a squidgy 531 frame and forks. The equivalent is driving an old mini vs a modern saloon car. My old mini always felt fast but really wasn't.
So watch this space for updates when I get the Raven back.
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Hi Freddered,
Sorry to here you are still searching for the perfect set-up. I have now got about 1500 mile on my raven. If I were being picky I would say that the reach is just a little long and the bar height a little low (and I have got a short frame!) However it is so much nicer to ride than anything else I have ever ridden. I am sure that when you get your drop specific frame that everything will improve.
"I was no faster on my old bike BUT it felt a lot faster."
Its odd isn't it. I find exactly the same thing and so have others. I think it maybe the Rohloff is changing the 'feel' of the pedal stroke.
Good Luck with the new frame.
PS How were SJSC OK about the switch over?
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I told them about my discomfort and they send a van a couple of days later to collect the bike. We have had a few phone calls and email exchanges to discuss Stems..etc.
Nobody has mentioned any charges but in fairness to me I did say when I went for a 'fitting' that I would probably end up on Drop bars
This is what good reputations are built on. Hopefully, even if I decide to return the bike under 100 day warranty, enough people will read this (or speak to people who have) to realise that it's an exceptional company making an exceptional bike.
I'm sure that for every bike customers return (and SJSC sell for a tidy sum on EBAY) they generate more custom World-Wide because of the ability to do so.
Try buying an off-the-peg Dawes Ultra Galaxy for similar money and sending it back 3 months later because you got neck ache, they may possibly suggest you go hither henceforth. (Actually you would probably have few objections to sending it back, I just don't think it would be worth waiting by the front door for your money to arrive).
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Freddered
What GPS do you use?
Dave
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Garmin Geko 200. Same size as mobile phone and has a bar-mount (although it works fine in Map-case of bar-bag and it totally waterproof).
Here it is on my accessory bar http://www.geocities.com/freddered1/bars.jpg . You can just make out the Arrow pointing the way to a waypoint. It points directly at a waypoint and also displays the (constantly changing) distance to it, this means you can tell in advance of an upcoming waypoint/turn. When you arrive at the waypoint it then points you to the next one, and the next one...until you reach the end of the route (that you plotted on your separate Map software).
I use Fugawi (Where the Fugawi?) Map software 1:50,000 OS on my PC to plot a route.
Upload the route to the Garmin and it points the way (along with about 100 other features like keeping a constant track of where you have been that you can download to PC later, ETA, altitude, Av Speed moving, Av speed overall.....etc..etc).
It's one of the best pieces of kit I ever bought, does exactly what I wanted. Doesn't replace a map (because it does not have a map display) but it saves a lot of time when following a route, it means you can keep moving quickly on country lanes without the usual stopping at every unmarked junction to figure out where you are.
Beware !! It's totally useless for cycling (in my opinion) without PC Digital Maps (but brilliant when used in conjunction). Beware, the cheaper Geko 100 can not synch with PC so it (in my humble opinion) useless for cycling.
Geko 200
£85 from Comet
£5 for PC synch cable off Ebay
Mapping s/w is epensive but Fugawi 1:50,000 Ordnance Survey, although not perfect, works well for me and is about 40 quid for a huge area (much cheaper than buying OS Landranger Maps for the same area and you can print off selected areas). You can also 'Fly'through the OS map in 3D Terrian view..check out those big hills in 3D.
Great toys, highly recommended.
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Hi Fredderred, I too use Fugawi.
I agree with you that without a PC based mapping program the GPS is almost useless.
BUT how do you find Fugawi to use?
I find it very difficult. Lots of things annoy me about the user interface for example the fact it creates a duplicate set of way points every time I download from the GPS and that the datum defaults to WGS84 when OS maps are NOT based on it! (OS use OSGB36.) Even the instruction says to use WGS84!
It does do everything it should it just takes (me) a while to get there.
PS Have you had your bike back yet?
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I use FUGAWI a lot so I've learned to work around it's quirks/shortcomings.
I've tried other S/W and they have some better features and some worse. The biggest advantage for me is getting the whole of the South of England in one CD. That's a lot of Ordnance Survey Maps.
A few of my friends now use Fugawi also. This means we can send routes and tracks to each other (they are tiny files).
FYI you can convert between GPS formats using code from www.gpsbabel.org
I've sent a Fugawi Track file to my friend and he's converted it for use on his TOM-TOM-GO equipped Mobile Phone. (Sat-Nav on a Phone? yes really.)
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Re. New Frame for my Raven Tour. (537L swapped for a 537S)
I think it may be perfect now. The top tube is considerably shorter which means I can use a long Stem. This gives me proper access to the shifter mounted on accessory bar under handlebars.
The reach to the hoods is now more comfortable and the riding position on the top of the bars is more suited to sightseeing (it's quite upright). I've wrapped the bars in inner-tube and doubled up on Cork tape. They are fat and comfy now.
I have a slight issue though.
There is now a regular clicking (every 5 or 6 pedal-strokes) which wasn't there before. It's not the pedals (I swapped them to check), I don't think it's the chain (I've checked every link). It's an annoyance really because it was absolutely smooth before. Someone out there give me a clue (I suspect Bottom Bracket but it's not every pedal-stroke). It feels like a slightly "square" ball-bearing somewhere in the drive-chain.
If I can get rid of this minor problem then it is a near-prefect bike for me. (Near-Perfect???.....Yes, I want STI shifters, then it would be perfect).
Will post some final pictures soon (after my new Ortlieb Bike Packer Plus Panniers arrive (in Graphite)).
I've read a lot of good things about them over the last year or so. I'm hoping they are the Panniers for life on my Bike for life.
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Here is the finished item:
(http://i.pbase.com/g4/66/673066/2/61442618.Bike1a.jpg)
Extremely pleased with the way the bike rides and how it looks.
I hope to test it out with a short camp sometime this summer. I've already loaded it with my camping gear and it handled fine. Maybe I will end up with some Low-Rider panniers up front but not yet (I've spent enough).
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Congratulate it is a true beauty. The colour scheme is excellent.
(Have you solved the clicking yet?)
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Looks very nice and somehow well proportioned for a 26" wheel bike with drop bars, so often they just look wrong.
Your panniers seem to be riding high, is that the only option? I was considering a pair of those but would also want to law my tent across the rack, which doesn’t look like it would be possible from your photo.
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Yes, they do ride 10-15cm higher than the rack. Take a look here
http://www.downtheroad.org/Equipment/Bikes/Bicycle_Touring_Panniers.htm and you'll see 2 things:
1. The guy has tried many panniers and only the Ortlieb survived
2. The photo at the bottom shows the mounting clips in relation to the top of the pannier, the top of the pannier is higher than the clips by some distance.
There's nothing you can do about it. You would need to pack differently.
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quote:
Originally posted by freddered
Yes, they do ride 10-15cm higher than the rack. Take a look here
Thanks for the reply. I've a pair of ten year old front rollers so I've no questions about Ortlieb reliability. I'll have to have a think, on the Raven I take 4 small panniers, I was looking for something for my Audax bike, so I can camp one night before an Audax, so not looking to take full camping kit and no front rack.
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I am delighted with my Raven Tour although I have very few miles on it because I am away from home.
The frame finish is excellent and the decals discreet which I like. I really want to keep my bike in stealth mode and not show off what an expensive machine it is.
Is there any downside to removing the garish Mavic Stickers from the rims? Also the Rohloff sticker, but this does carry a serial number, so I may keep just that part.
An option I am considering is to remove the Mavic stickers and cover up the Rohloff one with tape.
I have already started covering over the "Shimano Deore" decals on brakes and levers with black tape.
I have also fitted an ancient faded Carradice saddle bag which certainly adds some years to the bike's appearance.
It will be obvious to bike nuts what the bike is, but not to casual bad hat chavs.
Any suggestions?
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Hi Hbunnet:
quote:
Is there any downside to removing the garish Mavic Stickers from the rims
These were the first stickers I removed! There is one problem though. Mavic use an internal wear indicator. The sticker indicates where you must look on the exterior of the rim to check it.
I didn't remove the Rohloff sticker. Although I am tempted every time I clean the bike.
I have heard that bikes with brown leather saddles are ignored by you average tea leaf.
PS Welcome to the list
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I seem to remember reading in the Rohloff manual you can remove the sticker on the hub and they suggest if you do then you should engrave the serial number on the hub. I think if someone took an engraver to my hub I'd either cry or kill them where they stood [:(]
I do agree the bike looks so understated. I've had a couple of comments at work about the lack of gears and how 'boring' it looks. The carbon bar ends got a good comment or two and that's about it. In fact I'm really self conscious about the huge Abus lock I've brought to protect the bike. I'm begining to wonder if the lock will attract more thieves because if you spend that sort of money on a lock then it must be worth nicking - whatever it is.
My little hatchling is coming up for 3 weeks old now and we rack up 500 miles tomorrow [:D]
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Stutho said
"I have heard that bikes with brown leather saddles are ignored by you average tea leaf."
Thanks for the rim label information, Stutho, I need to look closer. Mavic's web site is impenetrable.
I actually had the Brooks Competition saddle fitted since I have a spare B17. To my surprise, the Competion is fine so far although I have only put about 150miles total on it. I plan to keep it on to see how I manage on longer distances.
The bike feels much faster than I expected, an unexpected bonus. I have the carbon comfort bars which is a bit of an indulgence and I do find them a bit wide, but on the road I have been using the inboard bar ends which give a good comfortable position.
I am very happy.
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In case anyone is teetering on the edge of buying a Raven, let me just mention my last ride. It's the longest day ride of my life, 165 miles from Hampshire due North to Staffordshire. The bike ran like an absolute dream, silently, smoothly and never missed a gear shift.
Sure you can do this on a derailleur but the silence and smoothness you get from the Rohloff makes the whole thing a bit more relaxed and stress-free.
Now I'm off to read about Medial Knee Ligament pain (not the Raven's fault).
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Sorry to resurect an old thread but this discussion and especially fredered's comments really helped to make up my mind -thanks guys.
My Raven Tour arrived yesterday! So far it feels great. Went for ergon grips with inboard carbon bar ends. The ergon's feel very comfortable but I did get some numbness in my left hand on the first ride. I'll experiment with the seat position before I blame the grips. Agreed with all that's been said about the Rohloff -7th is really awful - I was anticipating some noise but not the vibration through the pedals and I was suprised at the freewheel noise. As others have mentioned 8-14th are great. The grip shift is not as nice as STIs but very precise.
To me this rides more like an mtb than my previous hybrids but is very stable and surprisingly light (lighter than my aluminium Dawes discovery). It is understated quality, especially in black, which is exactly what I'd been trying to achieve.
Anyone recommend how best to remove the rohloff label on the hub?
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quote:
Anyone recommend how best to remove the rohloff label on the hub?
I used a hot air gun to soften the glue a bit. Take care not to let the hub get too hot. You want to still be able to touch it! After the label was removed I got the last of the sticky stuff of with WD40 and a bit of Mer (polish).
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On the subject of Rohloff noise, mine has got much quieter (about 1200 miles)even in 7th. In all honesty though I think that:
1) It IS quieter
2) I don't think I notice it any more(have you ever lived by a Railway? You don't notice the trains after a while)
Here is my tip for using the noise in 1st-7th to your advantage:
When climbing (and you WILL be climbing when you go below 8th gear I suspect) try to make the 'whirring' sound as even as possible. ie. If you 'stomp' on the pedals you will get a distinct "Whirr.....Whirr.....Whirr" noise. If you adopt a more efficient circular stroke you will get a quieter but constant "whirrrrrrrrrrrrrrr" like an electric motor (does this make any sense?).
If nothing else it takes your mind of the climb trying to get the smoother action.
Also I think Rohloffs get bad press as far as noise is concerned, Both my derailleur bikes make a hell of a noise in certain 'extreme' gears as the chain rattles against the cage and also when making changes of several gears at a time (can sound like an accident in a cutlery factory).
in 8th and above nothing comes close to the quietness of a Raven over poor roads, no chain slap, no gear rattles just precise click of gear changes.
As with EVERYTHING on a Raven/Rohloff the advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.
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Well, now had my RT 11 days and have 270 miles on the clock. I took it for a spin through Scotland (Glasgow to Inverness) and all went well. The Rohloff noise may be abating a bit and I only really notice 5, 6 and 7th now.
Compared to my now retired Dawes hybrid, the handling of the raven tour is excellent. It was great in forests and on steep descents in the wet. I've not felt the same level of fatigue, and it climbed beautifully. The only negative points were the tyres. Despite concerns the guys at SJS convinced me that Panaracer tour guard would be OK. I would probably agree if you never leave the tarmac. But, the rear lasted only 100 miles before tearing the very thin side wall on a forest section. The tyre had to be replaced in Pitlochry with a hi-road, the only 26x1.5 in the shop. They also collect small pieces of grit which can't do them much good and makes an irritating noise. So, I will be ordering two Schwalbe marathons next week (based on 10,000 miles without a problem on the last bike).
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I'm not sure I can keep-up with all this technical jargon, but I took delivery of my Raven Tour on Monday(many thanks to Mark et al!), ferried it over to France that evening, and on Tuesday discovered a major design fault!!!
I have to ask whether anyone else has this problem?
On my old 'bike it was precisely 8.3kms for the morning trip to the boulangerie. With my wife waiting in bed for her croissants this was just about acceptable. My Raven Tour has never yet been able to complete the trip in under 20km! I think that Andrew should be requested to come-up with an explanation... if only to rescue my marriage. Every time I get in the saddle the ruddy machine just keeps rolling and rolling - and if you can imagine what that is like, streaming across the early morning Normandy countryside - you'll understand my problem!
Answers please...............
My best incident so far was when the lycra-clad Frenchman seriously explained to his companion that "the green velo with the very ancient Englishman on top is the latest tres silencieux electric bike"!!?!
Now....... 'remis3velisque'... what are all these anti-theft devices you've come-up with? I find it difficult to accept that you need them in France (or are you city based?) but with several tours in mind I'd appreciate some advice on locks.
Stan
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Nice post Stan -memories of France. I used to live in the Provence and the trip to the Boulangerie was definitely the daily highlight!
I know what you mean about the 'raven tour mile though', my 4 mile commute through Lancaster to work has now become 9 miles along a river, spotting wildlife and through some rolling hills! Great bikes! Mine came into its own at the weekend when the path I was following along the Lune estuary through various tidal fords suddenly ended and I had a mile along a beach to reach the road I wanted. This would have seriously irritated the derailleur but the rohloff just kept going.
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Here are a few pics (well 4) of my Thorn Raven Tour on tour in Scotland on sustrans route 7. The bike is now two months old, has a black seat post and marathon tyres. If the technology works I might try some more!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/46905038@N00/279222224/in/photostream/
BTW anyone know how to get images to appear in the message?
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How to post an image in your message....
1)Right-Click on the image and select properties.
2)Copy the Address/URL - http://.............etc.
3)Paste between img Hyperlink tags (select "Insert Image" from the Format Bar)
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Looks great!! I have been on some of route 7, in Dumfries and Galloway - a lovely part of the country. I see you have the external gear mech - any particular reason?? Though I agree it does look good . . .
Lewis
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Well guys my raven tour has just reached its 100 day no-return birthday. Not that there was ever any chance it would be going back! Done 900 miles and the bike's been great. Its been on road, off road, shopping, commuting, touring, to conferences, on trains.... So no regrets but here are a few thoughts:
Pluses: rohloff even better than expected, handling and ride quality ditto, ergon grips, comfort bars (was v sceptical but can't fault them)
Neutral: in-board bar ends (can't see me using them much as they give limited control), the Blackburn mtn rack (might be a bit flimsy and doesn't quite fit my karrimor bags very well)
Negatives: panaracer tyres (let me down), shimano brake blocks (have damaged the rims)
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Could someones please tell me what riser bars are?? I keep hearing about them and wondering . . . are they the bars that rather resemble a dog's bone fitted on to the stem?? Thanks, guys!!
Lewis the still learning one
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My Stealth Black RST was delivered y'day all nicely packed in two boxes. Have so far only removed the parts for the boxes and protective foam from the tubing. All the parts are well packaged and I don't expect to find anything missing. Coming from the land of Ikea I am well used to putting together flat pack furniture but the pleasure of assembling the bike is something I will savour over the weekend!
My only minor disappointment is that the chainring got damaged in transit. The protecting foam was cut through when I removed the frame from the box and one of the spike ends was burred over (but not bent as far as I can see). Have yet to report this to SJSC
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Bad luck on the chain ring nnnmvg, hope you get it sorted so you can enjoy your RST. Just one thought, years ago I found a blunted chain ring spike on a derailleur bike. I took it to the LBS but they said that some suntour rings had this to help chain shifting. To be honest I never quite believed them but worth checking with SJSC.........
John: I changed the tyres to marathons and they've been great. I've always had these in the past but thought I'd try the default panaracers. Whilst they rode well the side wall was very thin and split on first serious outing. The shimano brake blocks were very disappointing and were clearly grinding lumps out of the rims -not a great advert for Shimano or SJSC and something that I would not expect to find on a bike of this quality.
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nnnmvg, Enjoy putting your RST together and hopefully chainring will be OK, but SJS will change if damaged. Please post photos and your thoughts once you've ridden it.
geocycle, I have LX brakes but haven't noticed any grinding or noise. When did you first notice there was a problem and what brake blocks have you changed to ?
Cheers
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Swislon, the problems were after a few hundred miles, well within the life expentancy of the blocks. I have the default Shimano brakes. These were a bit of a risk on ordering and I had expected to upgrade but they have worked as well (and are essentially identical) to the deore v brakes on my last bike - apart from this problem with the blocks. Under light braking the problem is minor and only limited grating is heard. But when applied tightly eg. downhill in wet conditions they scour lumps of Al from the rims. After extracting these lumps on two occasions I became concerned about weakening the rim, gave up and bought some cheapish cartridge type blocks from the LBS (Clarks?). The problem has now been solved and braking performance is fine. Searching on other fora (eg. C+ and CTC) indicates that others have also had this problem with some forms of Shimano blocks.
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Thanks for that geocycle. It might be better if I change blocks early on then as I don't want the same problem. It sounds nasty and expensive, if not dangerous even.
Anyone used the Swiss Stop Yellow King Brake Blocks as recommended by Paul Vincent in Cycling Plus this month (Pick of the Year page 46) or recommend any others [?]
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RE Brake Blocks and rim ware
You might like to try Koolstop 'Salmon' pads they are excellent - very little rim ware and really stop a bike quick.
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Cheers stutho, having got the basic cartridge holders, some quality pads will soon be needed.
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I note from the Brake section of this Forum that Koolstop pads have been mentioned before - and according to their website they do pads for ceramic rims. For XTR brakes as well, I wonder?? Has anyone any idea where to get them??
Thanks.
Lewis
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Lewis,
try this link
www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=4786
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Thanks julk, looks worth a try.
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quote:
Originally posted by geocycle
Well guys my raven tour has just reached its 100 day no-return birthday. Not that there was ever any chance it would be going back! Done 900 miles and the bike's been great. Its been on road, off road, shopping, commuting, touring, to conferences, on trains.... So no regrets but here are a few thoughts:
Pluses: rohloff even better than expected, handling and ride quality ditto, ergon grips, comfort bars (was v sceptical but can't fault them)
Neutral: in-board bar ends (can't see me using them much as they give limited control), the Blackburn mtn rack (might be a bit flimsy and doesn't quite fit my karrimor bags very well)
Negatives: panaracer tyres (let me down), shimano brake blocks (have damaged the rims)
Glad it's working out for you and some interesting thoughts.
I dislike Shimano pads as well, though I don't think the damage they do to the rims is not as bad as it looks. I just think there are better ones.
I think you were unlucky with he tyres. The 700c version (with the same sidewall) is a favorite with many Audax mile eaters, because it's so long lasting. I used my summer Hi Roads till the tread had gone and my winter TGs have done 4,000 miles plus over the winters.
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Lewis
I have got ceramic rims (Mavic 717) and I have tried both the Green and the Salmon Koolstop pads (with Avid Ultimate callipers). Conclusions are that the will both squeal if not set up very carefully however the green are a little quieter. The greens last a little longer but the salmon stop a little better. I currently use green on the rear and salmon on the front. I have also added a brake booster on the front which has got rid of the noise almost completely.
stutho
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'I dislike Shimano pads as well, though I don't think the damage they do to the rims is not as bad as it looks. I just think there are better ones. I think you were unlucky with he tyres. The 700c version (with the same sidewall) is a favorite with many Audax mile eaters, because it's so long lasting. I used my summer Hi Roads till the tread had gone and my winter TGs have done 4,000 miles plus over the winters.' From PH
I agree with you regarding the Panaracers. Sidewall punctures are rare and I am sure it was just coincidence that it happened so soon to me but the sidewall is thin relative to other tyres, which is why they are lighter. There are too many good reviews (like yours) for my experience to be typical and they gave a very nice ride, but once bitten, twice shy.
The lumps of Al stripped from the rims by the brake blocks was a more worrying problem. The rims were definitely scratched quite deeply in places, (mainly where the Al nodules that became embedded in the blocks cut in to the rims again). Hopefully I've solved the problem early enough before it significantly weakens the rims. I'll have a look for koolstop cartridges as folks above recommend.
No surprise that the RT was touring bike of the year, it would probably also have won the best allrounder if there was such a category.
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Just to add to my last email - the Salmon pads are quiet on normal rims - they only squeal on ceramic.
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quote:
Originally posted by geocycle
The lumps of Al stripped from the rims by the brake blocks was a more worrying problem. The rims were definitely scratched quite deeply in places, (mainly where the Al nodules that became embedded in the blocks cut in to the rims again). Hopefully I've solved the problem early enough before it significantly weakens the rims. I'll have a look for koolstop cartridges as folks above recommend.
Similar happened to me with my first bike with V brakes, the LBS who sold me it said it was normal and would happen with any blocks and part of my maintenance routine should include picking the bits out of the blocks! Although this extra chore was a pain and I was worried by the noise and look of the rims, they lasted as long as any others I’ve had. All a bit irrelevant as there are other pads that don’t collect bits of aluminium and offer better braking. Koolstop Salmon are my favorite, though hard to find, I’m presently using BBB triple compound which are very nearly as good, were cheaper and seem to be lasting longer.
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PH Chain Reaction (http://"www.chainreactioncycles.co.uk") have currently got all flavours including salmon at £5 inc. p&p get them while you can!!! (Credit to julk for finding them - I just bought 3 sets)
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Thanks for the tip off, I've just bagged myself a couple of sets too.
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quote:
Originally posted by stutho
PH Chain Reaction (http://"www.chainreactioncycles.co.uk") have currently got all flavours including salmon at £5 inc. p&p get them while you can!!! (Credit to julk for finding them - I just bought 3 sets)
My thanks as well, I've stocked up with a couple of sets.
I'll probably stick with the BBBs for the V brakes on the Raven, but need the thiner pads for my bike with canti brakes.
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Stutho, my Koolstop pads have now arrived, and the packet seems to imply that they should be installed with none of the usual toe-in . . . what is your practice??
Lewis
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RE: the plow tip - one of Kool-Stops not so clever inventions! The idea is that the raised rear tip will automatically sets the tow in. It doesn’t work very well (for me at least).
If you are using cartridge pad holders I would start by just trying the new pads without repositioning.
Some people file / sand off the tip before fitting Kool-Stops and then toe in as normal. I have try this in the past (I have also fitted the pad without sanding). I don’t think there is any right answer both ways can be made to work. However the good new is that once you have got the pad set up right (and it does need some form of toe in) it is probably the best brake pad you can buy.
PH What are your thoughts?
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Does anyone know what the difference is between the salmon koolstops and the other more available colours such as red & black? Are the red or black pads any good?
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The Salmon is the only pad designed for wet weather. I heard that the magic ingredient is ferric oxide. I am not sure if this is true or not but I do know for certain that the things don't half stop my bike well, both in the dry and the wet. I have not tried any other colour however on other forums it has being claimed that the black stops even quicker than the salmon in dry conditions.
More info here (http://"http://www.koolstop.com/brakes/Compound.html")
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I use the dual compound, salmon/black, so best of both worlds !
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quote:
Originally posted by stutho
RE: the plow tip - one of Kool-Stops not so clever inventions! The idea is that the raised rear tip will automatically sets the tow in. It doesn’t work very well (for me at least).
If you are using cartridge pad holders I would start by just trying the new pads without repositioning.
Some people file / sand off the tip before fitting Kool-Stops and then toe in as normal. I have try this in the past (I have also fitted the pad without sanding). I don’t think there is any right answer both ways can be made to work. However the good new is that once you have got the pad set up right (and it does need some form of toe in) it is probably the best brake pad you can buy.
PH What are your thoughts?
The V brakes on my Raven ain't fussy[;)]
I haven't altered the position of the holders since I fitted them. Slight toe in I think, but I expect that soon wears away. One good thing about the pads being thin is that they don’t need adjusting as they wear, in the way thicker pads do.
My other tourer with Tektro cantis and the same pads and holders is a different story. They can be made to work as well as the Vs, but only with frequent adjustment and they produce an ear splitting sequel if they’re not quiet right.
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Hi PH - Remind me, do you use ceramic rims?
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To Geocycle, a few pages back you mention that you have Ergon grips fitted. Did you have to cut the right hand one down to accomodate the gearshift? SJS cycles did mention some time ago that Ergon were producing a set of grips specifically for twist grip shifters, but the catalogue does not mention them.
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I also have ergon grips but I don't think mine are Rohloff specific. SJS fitted a 'spacer grip' on the left side (where the the shifter would be on the the right side) to even things out.
In my view, given the shape of the grips, I don't think you would want to have the right hand side cut down by much as it would affect comfort especially as the triangular shape of the rohloff shifter grip isn't ideal for resting your hand on when not changing gear. I have found that unlike SRAM gripshifts where you can ride with your hand on the shifter at all times, you actually need to move you hand slightly to change gear on the rohloff.
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Thanks for that Goosander. Do you find them more comfortable than normal grips? I think that for the grips without the little spikey bar ends, you can fit your own bar ends. Is this right I am thinking of putting Cane Creek bar ends on. As I have arthritis in my wrists and hands, the more comfort the better!
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Strat,
Lots of info for you re ergon grips but here are some measurements to consider.
Thorn recommend a grip size of 112mm next to the rohloff shifter. I use an ergon performance grip cut down to 110mm with a hot blade. I find this adequate with a hand width across my life line of 96/98mm (larger right hand). I really like the grips for comfort/support. I have to slide my hand across to change gear. I tried the thorn cork grips and could not get used to the slight centre bulge/contouring being a flat grip man.
If you are using thorn comfort type bars then you need to note the following measurements.
The rohloff shifter measures 62mm, the xtr brake lever clamp measures 15mm - so you need almost 190mm (110+62+15) of straight end to your handlebar to fit these butting up to one another. All thorn comfort bars have 190 except the standard carbon comfort which only has 180mm.
My narrowest bar ends clamps use 15mm. So these have to be mounted inboard round the bends - I found this position gave little control except on smooth road surfaces. I tried ergon R2 grips with short bar ends built in, sourced the rohloff model at Chain Reaction Cycles - the right grip is 100m which is a bit short leaving my hand touching the rohloff shifter without a filler bit of grip in between. I was not as impressed with the bar ends as I had hoped, they are really quite small.
That leaves straight bars for having outboard bar end, cut down grip 110mm, rohloff shifter and brake lever mounted in a straight line and touching.
I really like the position the comfort bars give. I get none of the shoulder/back discomfort which straight bars give me. I hope Thorn bring out a comfort bar with 210mm straight on the ends to allow us to have a rohloff and normal bar ends on the outside.
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quote:
Originally posted by stutho
Hi PH - Remind me, do you use ceramic rims?
Nope, having pranged as many rims as I've worn out I was reluctant to spend that sort of money. I've got the original CR18 on the front and a replacment Mavic 7?? on the back.
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quote:
Originally posted by strat
Thanks for that Goosander. Do you find them more comfortable than normal grips? I think that for the grips without the little spikey bar ends, you can fit your own bar ends. Is this right I am thinking of putting Cane Creek bar ends on. As I have arthritis in my wrists and hands, the more comfort the better!
Yes I find them very comfortable, because your weight is spread accross the whole area of your palm you don't get the sore spot you sometime get with standard grips. I assume that you could fit standard bar ends if you have enough room on the bars to accomodate them.
In the past I haven't been a big fan of bar ends, but decided to try the the Ergon grips with the integrated bar ends (I got the larger R type) and have been pleasantly surprised, I do seem to use them and they are also confortable to hold. I haven't tried the Crane Creek bar ends but judging from pictures of them, they seem to make the bars very wide - I presume that this is because they plug in to the ends of the bars, rather than clamp the bars themselves?
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quote:
Originally posted by julk
I really like the position the comfort bars give. I get none of the shoulder/back discomfort which straight bars give me. I hope Thorn bring out a comfort bar with 210mm straight on the ends to allow us to have a rohloff and normal bar ends on the outside.
Would outboard bar ends work with a comfort bar?
Surely the swept back bars would leave the bar ends angled outwards which I can't imagine being good for either comfort or grip, not to mention looking a bit odd.
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quote:
Originally posted by goosander
I haven't tried the Crane Creek bar ends but judging from pictures of them, they seem to make the bars very wide - I presume that this is because they plug in to the ends of the bars, rather than clamp the bars themselves?
No, they clamp to end of the bars. From memory, they use around 15mm of bar and extend a further 15mm (i.e. they add 30mm more than regular bar ends).
I use CaneCreek bar ends, Ergon grips and inboard bar ends (really big ones). However, to accommodate this I've moved the Rohloff shifter to the steerer (fitted just beneath the stem using a modified Thorn accessory bar).
I did this because I wanted relatively narrow bars and lots of hand positions. As others have already said, cutting the Ergon grip too short is uncomfortable (your hand ends up on the shifter) and leaving it long results in having a spacer (or just space) on the opposite side and wide bars.
My approach gives a pleasingly symmetrical and comfortable bar which is not too wide. It's a compromise, of course. The downside being that the shifter is not quite so accessible. I was worried about this at first, but in practice it really isn't a problem.
Kevin
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Goosander/Kevin, do you have any photos of your set up ? I'm finding my bars a little wide with Ergon grips and Cane Creek bar ends. The Ergon integrated look a neat option are these what you have goosander ? http://www.ergon-bike.com/en/grips/r2.html I'm also thinking of cutting the bar a little at a time until I get a better feel for the width.
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Swilson, here are some photo's of my Ergon grips and also some of the bike
http://www.goosander.eclipse.co.uk/ergon/
http://www.goosander.eclipse.co.uk/raven/
As you can see from the photos I have straight bars which I think are 58cm wide, they are fine for me when I have my hands on the grips but I wouldn't mind them being a little narrower when I am on the bar ends. If I can be bothered, I might take 1cm off each side.
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quote:
Originally posted by goosander
Would outboard bar ends work with a comfort bar?
Surely the swept back bars would leave the bar ends angled outwards which I can't imagine being good for either comfort or grip, not to mention looking a bit odd.
goosander,
Comfort - I would expect to only use the bar ends for a change of position on longer rides, as I have previously on my non Thorn 5° swept back handlebar bikes. I would plan to use bar ends with some curve on them to allow for finding the most comfortable forward position.
Grip - this will depend on the finish and shape of the bar end, I like the longer ones with a milled finish.
I think stubbies would score badly on both of these points.
Looking odd - I checked the bar ends in my garage to see if the 18° sweep bars might leave the bar ends pointing outwards at the front end. All the bar ends have an inward angle from the clamp, some more extreme than others. I reckon that most of my bar ends, fitted on comfort bars, would end up roughly parallel to the centreline of the bike with the tips curving further in, especially on the longer models. I don't think this would look too odd.
I may try fitting a temporary one on the left side as an experiment to see how it looks.
Hopefully I will get to fit a full set at some point in the future.
Julk.
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Thanks for the photos goosander. The bikes looking good. They look a neater solution than the Cane Creeks but I guess I wouldn't know about comfort until I've tried them. I'm going to cut a bit off the handlebars first & see if that makes a difference.
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OT
quote:
Originally posted by PH
Nope, having pranged as many rims as I've worn out I was reluctant to spend that sort of money. I've got the original CR18 on the front and a replacment Mavic 7?? on the back.
I know what you mean, I am still undecided by ceramic rim - even after 12 months. Anyway I find, just like you, that there are no problems with Kool stop salmon on normal rims however on ceramic careful setup is important - they work really well though, better than anything else I have tried.