Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Topic started by: NZPeterG on June 16, 2013, 07:17:18 AM
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Hi All
I got to talk to Two Kiwi (New Zealand) cycle Tourist that Cycled from the UK to NZ last year.
On Saturday and they said that a Schmidt Hub is a must have :o
Well yes I was (and have been) thinking about building up a front wheel with one :o
But Which One!
A Son 28 (new) or a Son 28 Klassik ??? a Son 28 looks Bling! and a Klassik looks more like a small (matching) Front Rohloff Hub!
Is the older one stronger?
Please can you all enlightening Me :o
Thanks Pete....... 8)
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Hi Pete!
A summary take:
The SON28 Klassik and the SON28 (new) are essentially the same hub with virtually the same output in my testing and in the figures published in the past on the Schmidt website.
One has to be careful not to confuse the SON28 with the identical-appearing SON Deluxe if they wish to use the dynohub to charge gadgets. For powering LED lighting systems only, the SON Deluxe is fine and has lower drag (though drag is essentially unnoticeable on all SON dynohubs if you're touring).
If you wish to power gadgets, get the SON28 Klassik or the SON28 (new). Even so, you will need to turn off any lights when powering or charging gadgets so they will get the hub's full power. For this reason, most people set up their charger leads with piggyback connectors at the hub -- one lead goes to the lights (which are switched) and the other lead goes to the charger.
If you wish the lowest drag and will only be using LED lights, get the SON Deluxe. It is not powerful enough for charging duties. I would urge the first two for greatest versatility if your future needs change.
The SON28 (new) has the "round ball" hub shell and supposedly has a smidge less drag than the Klassik. Output figures on the Schmidt site showed the same output on the (new) as the Klassik the last time I checked. The Klassik has the large, barrel-shaped hub shell that resembles a Rohloff hub. The ball-shaped SON28 (new) has less interior volume and supposedly suffers less from condensation in temperature extremes -- but that really is an academic point, as the Klassik already has a compensating vent in the center of the axle that allows the hub to "breathe" and vent properly (this is why a hub skewer used with a SON hub must never be greased in the center, where it could clog the vent and void the warranty).
So...this is how it shakes out for most uses (small-wheeled recumbents and folders are better served by other SON models):
• If you want minimal drag on a go-fast bike and you'll only use the hub to power LED head- and tailights, get the SON Deluxe.
• If you wish to power gadgets, or light halogen or LED lighting systems and want the most power and will accept a greater but still virtually unnoticeable amount of drag, then get the SON28 Klassik or the SON28 (new). The choice pretty much depends on whether you prefer the ball-shaped hub shell of the SON28 (new) or the barrel-shaped hub shell of the Klassik.
Don't forget, the SON hubs come in a variety of colors. There's a polished silver (aluminum) that requires some maintenance to keep nice over the years, and whose finish can corrode when used on salted roads or near the sea. There's an architectural-quality black-anodized finish that is essentially maintenance-free and will look nice for decades to come. There's also a nice, deep anodized red that matches the red Edelux headlight and red Rohloff hub.
Schmidt Original Nabendynamo (SON) hubs use deep-groove cartridge bearings with shields; quality is roughly comparable to Phil Wood bearings. However, the SON bearings are not field- or user-serviceable. The hub must be returned to a distributor or to SON for bearing replacement.
I have owned the SON28 Klassik and now have the SON28 (new) on my Nomad. I loved both and consider them essential touring gear. The drag is very minimal, even when powering gadgets (roughly the equivalent of climbing about 7 feet over the course of a mile, as I recall).
I am not aware of any difference in strength between the SON28 Klassik and the SON 28 (new). However, the SON28 (new) *is* available in a wide-body version that has a wider hub shell with more space between the flanges to better resist side loads. It is sometimes spec'd for tandem use or by companies like Idworx who wish to maximize strength whenever possible. The wider flanges do give a greater bracing angle to the spokes on each side, but at the cost of some side clearance of you have a Thorn Low-Loader MkV or Tubus Duo lowrider rack and fasten it on with largish hex-head bolts on the inside of the fork legs.
While the q/r SON hubs come with a bolt-on skewer, I have found the skewer tends to loosen in practice in my own use (Schmidt advise a low torque to fasten it) I replaced it with a standard Shimano cam-type q/r (also set with low torque to close) and have had no further problems with loosening.
Some people with sensitive hands on some bikes with some forks at some speeds on some road surfaces have reported an irritating vibration through the handlebars at speed with the SON dynohubs producing electricity -- apparently due to magnetic eddy currents inside the hub shell. This seems to require the "wrong" combination to produce an irritating level of vibration and doesn't bother the vast majority of riders, but I have felt it occasionally on some others' bikes and it can indeed be irritating -- especially on smooth roads. Mine have not produced the same irritating degree of vibration, but I can feel a tiny bit of vibration through the handlebars when the hub is powering my lighting or charging while riding on very smooth roads at some speeds. I mention it only because it has been a "stopper" for those rare few who are severely affected.
Again -- I would suggest getting the SON28 Klassik or SON28 (new) instead of the SON Deluxe, as the more powerful hubs are the most versatile and you may someday wish to power a gadget or charge batteries, and the lower-drag SON Deluxe won't allow that.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan Thanks.
I did ask about only SON28 Klassik or SON28 (new) and Not its little brother!
I will be using the Hub to Power my Pace Maker's (GPS and Phone etc)
Does the SON28 look too Bling ???
Pete . . . . . :P
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I did ask about only SON28 Klassik or SON28 (new) and Not its little brother!
<nods> I know...but people seem to get them confused since the appearance is similar and I thought it might help someone else if I pointed out there is a difference and why. ;D Does the SON28 look too Bling
I don't think so, but both of mine were black, so that makes them both a little less "blingy", and I don't think the SON28 (new) looks much different in that way. The "ball" shape looks a little odd at first if one is used to barrel-shaped hubs. I'd go with whichever one speaks to you as looking "right".
You can see photos of each here for comparison:
SON28 Klassik: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3896.0;attach=1032
SON 28 (new): http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4523.0;attach=4437
Best,
Dan.
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Hi Dan OK,
If you where to Buy a New Spare Hub Today ??? Watch one would you go for ???
I would only go with a Black One to match My Tom :-*
Pete . . . . 8)
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If you where to Buy a New Spare Hub Today Watch one would you go for
Oh boy, Pete; that's a tough question!
I...don't know. Really, I don't. ???
I guess the SON28 (new) 'cos it is "new" and therefore the latest going forward. Yeah, I think I would -- I did! It is also marginally lighter, but the rotating weight is in the center of the wheel, so the weight difference is unnoticeable when riding. It also is supposed to have marginally less drag...and I *might* feel a difference but it is so slight as to almost be imagined if I can feel it at all.
I like the barrel shape, but it does look more massive when you look down. I had the Nomad out in the yard today along with one of my other bikes that has Phil Wood hubs. Even the ball-shaped hub is a lot bigger than a Phil, which in turn is larger than a traditional hourglass-shaped hub. The barrel-shaped Schmidts are massive in comparison, but the shape matches the Rohloff pretty closely (the Rohloff is more sculpted than, say, a Phil hub when one looks at it closely).
The ball-shape looks a bit weird, but lighter in appearance. It is like nothing else in appearance.
I'd say if you're a traditionalist, go with the barrel shape. People have sometimes asked me if it is a drum brake. If you like answering questions as to why there's a ball in your front hub, then go for the other one. :D Some good photos of each are here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/schmidt.asp
Yeah, I like the black also. It would be a good match for Tom.
Best,
Dan.
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Watch one would you go for
I know, Pete -- put it in a poll and crowd-source an answer! See what the majority think. Your yellow Tom is well-regarded in these parts, and I'm guessing people will be happy to help you choose.
Even if you don't make the question in the form of a poll, I'm guessing people will be happy to register a "vote" right here in this thread.
Best,
Dan. (...who recommends, ehm, um...that one!)
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Hi Dan,
Thanks.
I have been thinking about this (Watch one) for a long time :o I like the Old design because you can get it Serviced when its still laced into the Wheel. With the New Design you have to unlace the wheel to have the Hub Serviced. Then there is the Matching of Front to Rear Hub ???
Pete . . . . ;)
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more bling the better ;D
has to be silver Pete and the newer ball shape i never heard of those things braking down,mind you and i could be wrong here usually am, but what about the shimano dynamo hub the one i bought is spot on does exactly what it said on the tin ;)
Andre is a big fan of them .
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more bling the better ;D
has to be silver Pete and the newer ball shape i never heard of those things braking down,mind you and i could be wrong here usually am, but what about the shimano dynamo hub the one i bought is spot on does exactly what it said on the tin ;)
Andre is a big fan of them .
Hi Andre
No No No Too Bling!
I'm planning a World Tour and i'm Not after any Bling!
I do not like Made in China and Silver Hubs :o so its a No to Shimano Dynamo Hub's.
Pete . . . . . 8)
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I'm getting a front wheel built around a SONdelux 36h. at the moment.
A Luxos U is in the air between Germany and here (Ireland). Could be here Monday.
As the Luxos U has a USB plug on it's lead from a cache battery IN the light surely I'll be able to charge from a SONdelux?
I'm getting the drift that only a SON28 or SON Klassik can do this. Did I buy the wrong hub? Surely not?
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I'm getting a front wheel built around a SONdelux 36h. at the moment.
A Luxos U is in the air between Germany and here (Ireland). Could be here Monday.
As the Luxos U has a USB plug on it's lead from a cache battery IN the light surely I'll be able to charge from a SONdelux?
I'm getting the drift that only a SON28 or SON Klassik can do this. Did I buy the wrong hub? Surely not?
Hi No if your only using your SONdelux to power up your Lights.
Pete . . . 8)
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OK. So a SON 28 or Klassik can do lights and USB at the same time? Is that it?
SONdelux can only do lights. Not a multitasker?
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Oh, and just read your signature. :)
Love the Market Stall. Well done!
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OK. So a SON 28 or Klassik can do lights and USB at the same time? Is that it?
SONdelux can only do lights. Not a multitasker?
Hi
Yes and No!
The SONdelux has a lower power output (at lower speeds) so it will take longer to power up your Phone, GPS, Battreys, etc.
I'm Sorry for this Sad News :(
And yes to my signature ;) "The trouble with common sense is it is no longer common"
Pete . . . .
8)
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That's grand. Don't use a dedicated GPS just a Nokia SmartPhone.
Have a nice Solar / Wind up radio which is brill.
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Did I buy the wrong hub? Surely not?
Hi PlanetX!
I think I can clarify. Take a look at the SON product brochure here, in English: http://www.nabendynamo.de/produkte/pdf/english/Prospekt_SON_28_neu_e_2012.pdf
Look at the top graph (the red and black one). Voltage is on the left, speed runs along the bottom.
You'll see the SON28 Klassik/(new) both produce more power at lower speeds than the SON Deluxe. The SON Deluxe (the one with less drag) produces less electricity at lower speeds.
By the time you hit 25kph/15mph, the output is very similar, and by 30kph/18.6mph, the output is nearly identical.
What this means is, if you are a faster rider (say a randonneur) who will be riding along at a good clip, the hubs end up with identical output at higher speeds. If you find yourself riding at ~20kph/12mph and below, you'll have more "juice" available at those lower speeds if you use a SON28 Klassic/(new).
If you get a SON Deluxe and ride slow, it will either a) take longer to charge /or/ b) produce insufficent voltage to power some gadgets until you pedal faster. Yes, the cache battery in the Luxos U will make up for some of that difference -- for awhile, until it is exhausted (it does not have a very big capacity). When the Luxos U's internal cache battery is exhausted, the circuitry makes recharging the internal cache battery a priority, so USB output falls. That can cause some USB-powered gadgets to blink on and off under those circumstances until the cache battery is full again. If the gadget is "off" and merely charging, then charging will indeed take longer and may be interrupted until the U's internal cache battery is refilled if it has already run flat.
The SON29 Klassik/(new) can sometimes power the lights and power or recharge devices simultaneously, depending on how much power the gadgets require. In almost all circumstances, a dyno-based charging system will have more electricity available for charging or powering gadgets if the lights are turned off at the time. Running both at once slices the pie more thinly. Similarly, you'll achieve fastest charging if your gadget is turned off while charging. Trying to power it while charging is often too much for the dyno to accomplish -- demand is simply more than it can supply.
Sadly, the one Great Unknown in any dyno-charging system is whether it will work with a particular combination or hub/charger/device. USB-powered gadgets are requiring more current these days, and can be a real challenge for dynohubs designed to deliver standard USB 2.0 levels of power, usually a nominal 5.0vdc @ 0.5A/500mA (give or take a small tolerance window).
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks for the reply.
Shouldn't be a problem really as the light will be mostly used for commuting duties. Might do a 300K Audax next year where it'll come in handy.
I'd only be recharging a smart phone really, so should be OK.
LED lights use less juice than Halogen I take it?
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planet x are you doing the louth audax 200km end of july. ;)
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Nope. Too far up country. Plan to do the Lon Las Cymru in mid July. Plan!
Cycle down to Rosslare, ferry over to Pembroke Dock, meet the Trail at Brecon and head up to Holyhead.
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LED lights use less juice than Halogen I take it?
Yes! Much less. Just a fraction.
Best,
Dan.
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Happy enough now, all sorted,
(http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc356/Kilroy8282/DSCN0186_zps9e8abaab.jpg) (http://s527.photobucket.com/user/Kilroy8282/media/DSCN0186_zps9e8abaab.jpg.html)
(http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc356/Kilroy8282/DSCN0185_zps664d7ee0.jpg) (http://s527.photobucket.com/user/Kilroy8282/media/DSCN0185_zps664d7ee0.jpg.html)
(http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc356/Kilroy8282/DSCN0187_zpsf20b0794.jpg) (http://s527.photobucket.com/user/Kilroy8282/media/DSCN0187_zpsf20b0794.jpg.html)
(http://i527.photobucket.com/albums/cc356/Kilroy8282/DSCN0183_zps0af0c07e.jpg) (http://s527.photobucket.com/user/Kilroy8282/media/DSCN0183_zps0af0c07e.jpg.html)
Was dreading the wiring but it turned out to be very simple.
SONdelux and Luxos U.
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Planet x just been posting a reply on boards did you read Ians report on here about the set up.
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Yep. Sure did.
Have been reading reviews about both hub and Light for months now. It's just what I wanted.
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Nice looking photos and a "clean" installation, Planet X! Looking forward to the ride reports with it.
Best,
Dan. (...who is so pressed for time at the moment)
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hope its cycling related Dan. ;)
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hope its cycling related Dan.
<nods> Yep, and charging- and lighting-related, too.
• Nomad lighting and charging via SON28 (new)? Check.
• Solar with accumulator? Check.
• Trailer lighting and charging via SON28 Klassik? Almost there; today should see it done. Got all the components soldered to my home-etched circuit boards and they now reside in a waterproof case I made and are mounted to the trailer on my brackets. Finishing the installation now.
Everything is sorted and works reliably rain, shine, or dust-storm -- yay!
Best,
Dan. (...who is going back to the soldering iron and heat gun in a few minutes)
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Wow great news Dan look forward to seeing the final rig sounds like a great set up for adventure touring jack and denice may never see you again all the comforts of home on ya bike.