Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: jags on June 04, 2013, 02:32:09 PM
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[Admin note: I split this topic off from where it began on the Cycle Tours board so it can grow legs on its own with minimal editing. -- Best, Dan]
i'm kinda thinking of selling my sherpa and going for an audax might suit me better.
but ya i do like te sherpa question is how much better if at all the audax would be.
anyway photos if you have any please post them. ;)
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Sounds like a great tour Kumben and the bike seems to be ticking all the right boxes.
Jags - If you dont need the carrying capacity of the sherpa or its ability to handle poor/offroad then I think you would find the audax to be noticably quicker and more exciting to ride without unduly affecting comfort.
From all the reviews I have read it truly is a wonderful bike and is certainly on my future wish list.
Andy
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Cheers Andy ya reckon it would be a better choice for me i'll never be doing a Dan tour thats for certain ;D
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Jags,
I have a Sherpa and an AudaxMk3.
The Mk3 feels like a flying machine after being on the Sherpa, and is actually more comfortable on most roads, the Sherpa is very stiff (well mine is anyway as its a 610s and has the extra oversize tubing).
With a full camping load, the Sherpa is much better of course, but still has a fairly stiff ride even with 2" Supremes.
But the Mk3 is still capable of touring with a fair amount of stuff, I did LEJOG on mine three years ago with front and rear panniers, carrying lightweight camping gear and most of the luggage for two of us, photos here http://www.flickr.com/photos/rualexander/sets/72157624996622225/ , it was a bit overloaded for that trip but still coped well.
It might be a tough choice to change from your Sherpa to a Mk3 unless you could afford to have them both for a while before deciding which one to keep.
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Rual photos are stunning thanks for that.
yeah i will have to do a lot of thinking on this one i love the sherpa but if the audax is gonna suit me better then maybe i should think seriously about buying one.but i would need to sell my sherpa to finance the new frame and new groupset and wheels.
would the xt groupset i have on the sherpa suit the audex (shimano m770 xt)
i was looking at the frames on the sjs site i could use a carbon front fork which i think i would go for.
meant to ask whats the difference in mk2 and mk3 and which is better.
Kumben sorry to hijack your thread but you just got me thinking so its all your fault ;D
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I don't see why you couldn't use the xt groupset on a Mk3.
I got the carbon fork for my Mk3, as well as the steel fork, but if buying again I'm not sure I'd bother with the carbon.
It saves a bit of weight but I don't really notice any difference in ride quality or comfort, having said that, I keep the carbon fork on the bike all the time and have only used the steel fork occasionally, and for that lejog trip where I needed it to carry the front panniers, which I know you don't use.
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Jags,
I agree with Rual; I don't see why you couldn't simply do a frame transplant, selling-on the Sherpa's frame and steel fork either here on the Forum or on eBay to recover much of your cost and perhaps relatively little out of pocket. Your Sherpa is in fantastic condition, and likely would go pretty quickly. The drivetrain is in equally good shape and would work nicely, I'd think, on an Audax frame.
A thought to consider, perhaps!
All the best,
Dan.
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The problem I can see is that as well as the frame you would also need a new wheel set. Unfortunately these are the two most expensive parts and together probably account for about 60-70 percent of the cost of a full bike build.
I think it would be a shame to see your sherpa split up as it is such a lovely looking bike.
Andy
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Yeah, you're right, Andy. I was thinking they could simply be re-rimmed and respoked on the same hubs, but there's labor to consider as well if one doesn't do their own. And, there's tires as well.
And, too, there is that issue of breaking up a complete bike. I find myself facing that sometimes when I eBay one of mine. Unfortunately, I can often realize more from the individual sales than I can the complete bike -- and find more ready buyers as well. Do I feel good about it? No, I don't. It always seems better to sell it on whole, as something essential in the personality of the machine is lost when it is parted out.
Best,
Dan.
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It can become very expensive, very quickly looking at changing from one frame to another. By the time you have done all the jobs "you may aswell do" as you have it stripped like new bottom bracket, new gear and brake cables you will find you have got up to 80% of the cost of a new bike.
I looked at it with the 587L Tour I am, considering changing to a shorter frame and drop bars. Once I had bought new frame, new bars, new brake levers, new cables, new bar wrap etc, the financial gain between that and selling on the running bike and starting with a new bike just did not make sense.
If you like the sherpa (which you really seem to do jags) I would be very loathe to move it on. If you fancy something lighter and quicker it may be worth looking at something second hand. Many of the "vintage" touring/ road bikes can be had at good prices and back then they were more of an all round bike. Thinking of offerings by both Dawes and Raleigh. I had a nice raleigh touristique which I bought and sold for around 150ukp It was a very nice 531 frame running mountain bike shimano exage gearset.
Andy
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Thanks lads will get back later i'm off out just now ;)
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Thanks for the input lads much appreciated.
i will have to think hard on this change like how much better is the audax going to be my days of riding fast are long gone.
Still having said that i like the idea of a lightweigh touring bike with 700c wheels ,
the sherpa is a great bike thats for sure but to be honest it's wasted on me i'm most definitly a fair weather tourer so going as light as possible would be my goal,the sherpa is built for adventure touring sorry to say it wont be going on any adventures with this kid ::)
anyway folks what kind of money should i be looking to sell my perfect condition sherpa frame /fork .seatpost .Also hand built wheels and one dynamo wheel ;)
cheers for now.
jags.
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BTW to guys that ride the audax mk3 is there an issue with heal clearence being that the frame must have tighter angles ;)
anyone got photos of the audax mk3 please like to hear a few more thoughts on the bike before i committ 8)
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Jags...a question:
Would the Audax be enough different from your present Raleigh to be worth the effort?
I'm guessing you *could*, if pressed, tour on the Raleigh with a generous saddle bag and HB bag?
Given the frequency of camping, would it still pay to keep the Sherpa for those occasions when the Raleigh just couldn't haul "enough"?
All the best,
Dan. (...who has concluded all his own bicycles end up becoming touring bikes anyway -- regardless of origin)
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Jags, here's a link to a profile photo of a rider on a smallish Audax Mk3: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/AudaxMK3/MK3_web.jpg
And, of course, the brochure linked here: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Thorn_Audax_Mk3.pdf A nice profile shot of Thorn/SJSC's own Lisa Parsons on her Audax is on the cover page. She's really pedaling hard, but the way -- check out the upward arc inn her lower chain run, even with the derailleur's cage nicely tensioned on the big 'ring.
Both profile photos give some idea of heel clearance. These are much tighter frames than your Sherpa, jags. Still, if you fit your Tubus Logo -- with the lower rails that allow the bags to sit farther rearward -- you should be okay. Rual could tell you for sure, having toured so much on his (fantastic photos, as always from Rual).
Best,
Dan.
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Dan i don't think i would chance putting to much weight on the Raleigh,i was told by the guy who resprayed it for me a very good old school frame builder now retired that the tubes are far to light for adding that extra weight ,mind you having said that i carry the carradice barley on it all the time never put the barbag on though.
if i though i could sell the sherpa frame and not have to spend to much for the audax then i would go for it.no big loss if it doesn't happen i still have too great bikes.
jags.
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i was told by the guy who resprayed it for me...that the tubes are far to light for adding that extra weight
<nods> I understand. That would probably also rule out even a lightish trailer like the Extrawheel as well, then.
All the best,
Dan. (...who's trying to think of halfway measures to get you where you need to go)
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Depending on how much you need to carry for light weight touring a Carradice super c saddle bag and bar bag on the raleigh might just pull it off. It may be worth looking at a set of heavier duty touring wheels and maybe a touring friendly set of sprockets.
Pertaining to valuaing the sherpa parts- about half new price seems to be the norm for good quality second hand.
Andy
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My size 600 Mk3 has enough pannier/heel clearance for my size 12 feet, the chainstay length is 435mm. My size 610s Sherpa has 450mm chainstay length. So shouldn't be a problem.
The Thorn pdf brochures give the chainstay lengths for all frame sizes.
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I thought I would post a comment to this topic but I did miss the start.
I own an Audax Mk3 a XTC (Love that!) and a Cannondale Supersix. The Audax is a great allrounder. A good commuter would be Ok to light tour and a relaxed roadbike. What make it a good allround prevents it from excelling in any one area. The supersix is a much better road bike and the XTC to my mind would be a better commuter/touring bike for my needs. I I could only have one the Audax would cover all bases.
My impression from the forum of the Sherpa is that it is designed for mainly touring and what makes it vert good at that perhapse detracts from other types of riding. I owned an EXP for a while, great bike but overkill unless you were loaded to the gills! The swap of mtb drivetrain to the Audax would be a good one, but you might want to get a larger crankset. XT 771 perhapse due to the 700c wheels.
Hope this helps
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Philb it does help thanks a million,would you believe i'm trying at this minute to seel to a guy on my facebook page ;D.
i still havent put a price on the sherpa frameset or the wheels..
but if i get enough to buy the audax they yeah i will go ahead and buy it.
the sherpa is a fantastic bike but as you said overkill for the touring i do so a lighter faster bike that can still carry my gear will suit me fine. ;)
cheers
jags.
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The audax is a great bike and I'm very happy with mine. I have both forks and 4 sets of tyres ranging from 25mm two different 28mm compounds and 32mm Schwalbe supremes. I just change those for different riding.
Glad to help and happy shopping!
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will have to sell on my sherpa to finance this,also i need to find out fromsjs what size frame i need they dont seem to have a 51 in audax.
well the sun is out here in ireland so i'm off out for the morning get the miles in i think i'll take the sherpa out just in case someone buys it from me over the weekend ;)
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Hello,
I have owned a Sherpa, Club Tour, Audax 853 and Mk 3 Audax.
The opening question was would an Audax suit my needs better than a Sherpa?
My answer is NO!
A Sherpa is comfortable, can carry the type of loads the questioner carries, it rides with little effort and will go any distance.
The Audax rides more quickly and reasonably comfortably, but in my honest opinion will not do a Camping trip easily.
As an experienced rider particularly of Thorn bicycles, if the questioner wish a great compromise then a Club Tour would be the answer. The Club Tour can be ridden with 28mm tyres or 35mm tyres. It can carry heavy loads. It can be ridden speedily for fun days out or for Audax.
Opening poster, the Sherpa is in my opinion the better bike for you and your needs, that is unless you no longer cycle camp!
Best regards,
John
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I would disagree with John. I'd say the audax is very capable of carrying a decent load while being a sharper ride.
I think thorns are generally over-built. I feel they pride themselves on expedition/go anywhere characteristics and as a result end up being overbuilt for the majority of uses. I'd tend to the lighter end of the thorn range all the time.
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Thanks lads for the input. John is probably on the button with this one after all he has ridden all or most of the Thorn range,but if i remember right was the audax not your faourate ;).
john to be honest i'm a fair weather tourer i will neve do what most of the lads here do so the audax might just be for me.if i cant sell the sherpa its no big deal i still have a great touring bike .
but yeah i want that audax and in blue you will be mine. ;D
so can anyone tell me what money i should expect to get for either frame set or the entire bike.
i was thinking 1200 euro for bike
frameset i not sure anyone hazard a guess,bare in mind i need as much as i can get to finance new machine.
jags
(whos birthday it is tomorrow 60 years young 8))
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(Early) Happy Birthday, jags! That Audax isn't Cobalt Blue, but "Jags Blue"...and maybe awaiting you in this, your own Happy New Year.
Best,
Dan.
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i sure hope your right there Dan. i had an email from sjs i have to fill in the form on there webpage that should be fun (not) ::) dan i sent you a photo of the bike just now will you putit on bikes for sale thanks.
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Yes, jags, received it and happy to post, but you need to make up an ad to go with it. Email me that and I'll post the lot at once for you.
Best,
Dan.
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just posted it for sale on bike for sale. ;)
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Done.
Ad and all look good, Anto. Very best of luck!
Dan.
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Thanks Dan. ;)
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The audax is a great bike and I'm very happy with mine. I have both forks and 4 sets of tyres ranging from 25mm two different 28mm compounds and 32mm Schwalbe supremes. I just change those for different riding.
Glad to help and happy shopping!
Philb,
Do your 32mm Supremes fit ok with mudguards on your mk3?
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Will the audax mk3 except 10 speed drivetrain ,some nice chainsets to be had on chainreaction but the ones i fancy are all 10 speed.
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I haven't tried the Supremes with mudguards and to be honest I wouldn't. There is not enough clearance to my mind. I have them for summer touring tyres, but the summers are pretty reliable here!
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What about the Kojak ;)
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Ok lads i'm having no luck selling my beloved sherpa so should i just go with selling the frame set, at least if i got a sale on that i would still have the groupset for the new baby ;)
and i would 3 wheels for sale as well.
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Well, jags...
Given the overall fine condition of your components, you could likely transfer your...
• Bottom bracket
• Crankset/chainrings
• Pedals
• Chain (if shortened)
• Cassette
• Front derailleur
• Rear derailleur
• Stem
• Handlebars
• Brifters (brake lever/shfter combo)
• Seatpost
• Saddle
• Accessories (bike computer, GPS, tool bag, etc).
You would have to acquire...
• New brakes (calipers of some sort; your cantis won't fit)
• Either new wheels (complete) or new rims and spokes relaced on your existing hubs (and add the labor for same)
• New tires (700C instead of 26in)
• New tubes
• New rim strips
• New mudguards
• New cables/cable housing
• Probably a new headset. I've found the alloy cups will *sometimes* distort slightly on removal and then cause problems when reinstalled. Not every time and it is rare in my experience, but it happens often enough that I just sort of mentally figure on a new one even if the old headset is in good shape. If the old 'set is worn, then there's no question; I replace it as a matter of course. In the end, it is a very inexpensive way to avoid mysterious and nasty handling problems.
As someone who enjoys building wheels, I'd go that route (though spokes and rims can really add up even with free labor and reused hubs), but if I had to *pay* to have new ones built (or bought them pre-made), that tips the equation farther away from trying to transfer the parts, as AndyBG so sagely observed. As he also mentioned, all those little ancillary items add up -- tires, too; ones of good reputation aren't inexpensive. Of the things you'll need, I think it is the wheel cost that will hit you hardest after the frame. I kinda hate to see the dynohub go, 'cos it is about half what you need to keep your nifty new phone reliably charged and possibly powered as you ride; you'd need a charger and perhaps a buffer battery as well, depending on your use and requirements.
If you don't have enough spares on hand to do the swap out of available stock, then I must agree with Andy; it's going to add up -- perilously close to the cost of a complete bike. I agree with him, looking at the (to me, on this side of the Atlantic, staggering) levels of depreciation on used bikes where you are, then yes about half original price for everything is a realistic figure for the Sherpa's parts. If SJS Cycles happened to have a special price on an Audax frame or perhaps even a demo bike or one that had been turned in, then the tables tip more in your favor, but building up a frame with *new* parts is expensive, and can still be expensive even if you do a transplant of many of them.
I suppose the ideal from a cost standpoint would be to buy a complete Audax at a good price while you still had the Sherpa, then swap parts between them so the Audax was configured with your favorite components, then the Sherpa could be sold on as a nice complete bike for someone who didn't already have a particular parts spec in mind. Trouble with that is these are two bikes with essentially different missions -- a lighter weight, sprightly do-all versus a bike that's a great all-'rounder with heavy touring capability. Swapping parts between is likely to dilute the Sherpa a bit for the next buyer.
Hmm. Here's a thought: Could you swap the 700C wheels from your Raleigh into an Audax as needed, perhaps with a tire and cassette change? Yes it would be a hassle when changing bikes, but I got by doing that for awhile and it did give me the benefit of two bikes at much lower cost till I could afford (to build) a second set of wheels. As for touring on fairly light 700C wheels, I never had any problem and found running wide(r) tires on light/narrow rims made for a more touring-durable wheelset than I might have expected.
Just thinking aloud and trying for ways to make this more possible for you...
All the best,
Dan.
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New frame & forks comes with a headset and with a seatpost so no need to budget for them.
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Quich question las and many thanks for the replys ;)
is 450euro a good price for my sherpa.if i sell any less that that i will struggle to but audax frame.
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Dan i'm not to worried about parts to be honest i reckon my biggest expensive would be new wheels and yes i would need a dynamo up front thats a must.
all the groupset on the sherpa is as good as new.so a quick change from one bike to other will do me fine. i love the xt crankset and rear mech great range of gears.
yeah to be honest i think i will go the frame set route and keep all my gear so what if i dont sell i still have a great bike.
thanks lads i will probable keep changing my mind on this but for now the sherpa is no longer for sale frame set yes if i get what i want for it.
jags.
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I have a brilliant idea. If you have trouble selling the bike, what you need to do is take her for a ride fully loaded and keep her like that for a couple of weeks. Then, unload her, take all the racks off and put narrow tyres on, she'll ride like a dream and you'll feel like you DO have a new bike!
My bike always feels a lot lighter after touring, especially after last time when I had a child in tow..
Jane
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HI Jane ,been down that road many a time.
the tyres do make a hugh difference in ride quality i found after trying lots of tyres that supreams are by far the best.
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Oh dear never mind. The Audax does look like a lovely bike..
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Hi Jags,
This is probably a silly question, but does SJS have a 'trade in' (I think it's called 'part exchange' over there?) program?
You'd think it would work for them to offer you a reasonable price for your Sherpa (albeit slightly less than you'd get for a private sale) then sell it at a small profit and at the same time sell you a brand new Audax.
It would be a win win win situation:
You have the convenience of a quick sale and purchase of the coveted Audax
SJS profit from the sale of 2 Thorn bikes - one new and one used
Some lucky punter buys a used Thorn sold and serviced by SJS
Cheers,
pj (who would also like a MK3 instead of his Club Tour)
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Damn!
I've done it again.
The answer to my question is on the SJS website.
Sorry everyone.
pj
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Actually.. the Thorn website
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/letussellyourbike.html#Anchor-Why-11481
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hi Peter believe me i thought of that as well but i dont think they take part exchange moores the pity.
anyway i had an email from Steve@ sjs cycles
this morning he reckons i'm looking for to much money for my sherpa ::) so i guess if i want to sell it i will have to drop the price.
just shows even though you keep your bike in tip top condition its not worth as much as you were hoping to get such as life.
and heres another silly question i have to fill in the form on the website to get the perfect size frame but to be honest i cant make head nor tail out of the info they want :-[
surly if i give my inside leg measurements my height maybe top tube lenght that should be enough.
i'm only buying the frame so what is the critical measurements i should send sjs.
yeah i know i'm an idiot ;D
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Jags
Remember that as you are now buying a mk3 frame & forks only, you get the benefit of the 100 day money back guarantee if the frame doesn't suit you. So you will have the option of changing it for a different size, or even getting a refund and buying a Club Tour frame or even another Sherpa frame if you end up wanting to go back to where you started!
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Hi Jags
That is the sad thing that no matter how good you keep a bike and how new it is - as soon as it leaves the shop its value is almost cut in half. The other option for you is to look at the benefits the other way and maybe looking at sourcing a second hand audax. They dont come up too often (maybe a sign of how good they are) but they do come up from time to time.
Andy
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Thanks Lads appreciate the input.
if i can figure out how to fill in section one of the perfect frame size on the sjs site ::)i reckon i will have the perfect bike for the type of cycling i do.
the lad i'm dealing with at sjs is a gentleman ,Steve he has the patience of a saint. ;D ;D
i think to be honest i will just go with selling the frame ,i will hate to sell is cheap because its in perfect nick really nice frame, but if i have to drop a few pennies i suppose its the only way i'll sell it besides i still have the wheels to sell someone somewhere is gonna get a serious good deal ;)
man i#m like a big kid can't wait to get my hands on that bike ;D ;D
as we say here in Ireland ,I'm a sad fecker. ;D
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i have to fill in the form on the website to get the perfect size frame surly if i give my inside leg measurements my height maybe top tube lenght that should be enough.
i'm only buying the frame so what is the critical measurements i should send sjs.
Hi Jags et al,
Let me be the one to ask the silly question...
If SJS knows the size of your Sherpa frame (and stem length?) wouldn't it be a simple matter to match that to the appropriate size Audax frame?
It's not as if there is an infinite range of sizes in either version.
Just wondering...
pj
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Peter with a bit of help from Dan i got the form filled OK so the frame i need is
525/s M audax frame.seems my sherpa frame was no help in sizing up the new frame ::)..
i had the sherpa on the bike stand yesterday giving it the usual shampoo and blowdry sticking a bit of polish on all the sexy parts ;D ;D i have to say its a stunning wee bike i have it exactly the way i want it so why then am i so anxious to get rid of it .well to be honest if i could afford to buy the audax i would never sell the sherpa ,but such is life been out of work is a drag great i have loads of my free time to do what ever i want but the down side is you never have a penny in your pocket i think that's a line from a song ::) but look life is good I'm not really complaning just a wee rant ;D
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Jags - first off - I can sympathise with the too much time, not enough income situation as I have been in a similar position myself ....
There is currently an Audax on eBay (UK) - not quite the size you want but it should give you an idea of costs for 2nd hand.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310686232926?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
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Jags - first off - I can sympathise with the too much time, not enough income situation as I have been in a similar position myself ....
There is currently an Audax on eBay (UK) - not quite the size you want but it should give you an idea of costs for 2nd hand.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/310686232926?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649
thanks sdg yeah lovely bike wonder what will it sell for the £100 is just a starting bidi reckon.never bought anything off ebay.
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Jags, we bought my wife's first road bike from eBay. Accepting that some risk was involved we paid £285 (inc postage) for a well used Specialized Dolce. One new chain, two new tyres and some faffing about with brake cables and a stem from the bits box it was a going concern. Since then it has been passed on to our son's girlfriend as Gill decided she liked roadie cycling and bought a Cannondale Synapse.
I would have thought there was much less risk involved with buying from SJSC? Their description looks to be pretty open - clearly the transmission needs fettling.
You mentioned Steve at Thorn earlier - he helped us when we ordered our Sherpas, as you say, he is patient and helpful. He would probably sort out some more info on the eBay Audax if you asked.
hope that helps
sdg.
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SDG i would love to bid especally as sjs are selling but no mun no fun ;D ;D
yeah steve is a real nice guy doesnt mind answering silly questions, just hope he doesnt think my last one is off the wall ;D ;D.
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Jags, when you spoke to Steve / SJSC did they say anything about their stock of Audax Mk3 frames?
Looking at the SJSC website today, it looks as though their stocks are decimated and they are only available in extreme sizes in a couple of colours ???
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-audax-frames-dept432_pg1/
Very strange ... even stranger than the ever continuing listing of the Sterling/Alfine being marked out of stock.
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Jags, when you spoke to Steve / SJSC did they say anything about their stock of Audax Mk3 frames?
Looking at the SJSC website today, it looks as though their stocks are decimated and they are only available in extreme sizes in a couple of colours ???
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-audax-frames-dept432_pg1/
Very strange ... even stranger than the ever continuing listing of the Sterling/Alfine being marked out of stock.
Hello,
Nothing strange at all. Out of stock means sold due to popularity. Odd sizes for odd sized people.....
New stock arriving at virtually any moment!
I still feel that 'jags' should and possibly will keep the Sherpa. Used price lower than anticipated, need for Audax pure want rather than need!
John
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I think the last of the Sterlings bar one sold only a few months ago. There is a smaller one still for sale but I gather that the new Nomad X is its re-energised offspring! . Proffering a view: I imagine that carrying a large stock of different frames in different sizes is not cheap so, particularly in these 'difficult' times, a degree of rationalisation would seem sensible. Interestingly the market for used Thorns seems quite buoyant given the activity on ebay, here and elsewhere. (Sounds like a a Beatles song that! :) )
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Hello,
Nothing strange at all. Out of stock means sold due to popularity. Odd sizes for odd sized people.....
New stock arriving at virtually any moment!
I still feel that 'jags' should and possibly will keep the Sherpa. Used price lower than anticipated, need for Audax pure want rather than need!
John
yeah spot on john theres no way i'm selling my pristine sherpa cheap just because i want another bike. ;D ;D