Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Andre Jute on February 07, 2013, 02:30:01 AM
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I've just gone back to my ancient Canon Digital Ixus 300 (you can tell how old it is because when it was made, a digital camera was so uncommon, it was worth putting in the name); it was such a new technology that the camera and few accessories cost over a thousand pounds. It's a pretty low megapixel model, but I'm so familiar with it, I take excellent photographs even half-asleep, and its moonlight mode is a godsent for culinary photographs (I have a commission to do a book called The Euro-Elite Bicycle and Comfort Food Cookbook, for which I shall be asking y'all for photographs sometime later this year). The Ixus is stainless steel, so I use it for everything, including going on my bike. I guess that, having survived more than ten years and outlasted several bikes, it is a proven tough camera.
But the Ixus is big and clumsy by modern standards. So I'd like to replace it, if I can find something suitable.
I've already failed to replace the Ixus with an Olympus D-720, which is essentially Olympus's exemplary Mu (normally given as lower case mu or just the symbol u) in a slightly larger case of stainless steel, with a 10x wide optical zoom lens, plus macro and super macro down to gnat sizes, and buttons rather than a touch screen so you can operate it with or without gloves. The reason I'm not getting along with it is unfamiliarity with the software. This surprises my wife, who gets along fine with her Olympus mu, essentially the same camera compressed into an ali case and without the wide-angle to zoom lens; we've always had several Olympus in the family. I'll sell the D-720 for £70 delivered in Europe, delivery to the States a bit more, within Ireland the price is €70 delivered; the thing has been in use for a few months so it's probably got a few marks on it; looks okay to me: it was chosen for being a camera that shrugs off handling; comes with all the bits (cables to make it work with everything, travel charger, case, strap, battery, software discs, etc,) in original packing -- I haven't even thrown out the box yet. Also works well as a video camera, and has a tripod thread for attaching to a bike; I'll throw in a handlebar/rack fitting to attach a camera if you don't have one. If nobody wants it I'll put it on Ebay. Note that the D-720, though lighter than my Ixus, isn't an ultra-lightweight like its near-relative the mu (which at a guess, one in each hand, is at least 50gr lighter): it's a strong camera in a stainless case for surviving an outdoors life; it is however very likely the smallest camera with such a good lens of such a huge range.
So, what do I want instead? I probably want another Ixus so that I don't have to learn new software. And very likely I want the one without the bells and whistles because that's the cause of my somewhat unreasonable failure to get along with the Olympus. And of course it should be from the more industrial or agricultural end of the range, so it can survive on my bike, preferably stainless steel, and either black or silver, not some poncey fashion colour. Anyone know which model Ixus I want? Price isn't an object but I'm a Calvinist who measures value for money on a cyclist's gramme-scale. Even ultra-small isn't important, as my present Ixus fits a shirt pocket and all the newer ones are much smaller.
Thanks for information and opinions.
Andre Jute
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Hi Andre!
I read your requirements carefully, and I'm afraid I'm not familiar enough with Canons to make a recommendation for another Ixus for you ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_Digital_IXUS ).
However, I can offer the alternative view of noting nearly every maker in this class has cameras that include "intelligent automation" modes, making the camera essentially a point-and-shoot with no real learning of menus, software, or controls necessary to achieve a high percentage of successful shots if that is all you want. You could be up and running successfully with a new camera in minimal time. Creative control requires a greater investment in cost and learning, of course.
If you are really looking for something to *keep* on the bike, then weather resistance and ruggedness (vibration resistance) are helpful to ensure a long service life. Something like the GoPro series of cameras in their armored cases might prove helpful, though their features are geared primarily to video. Still shots are possible, but less facile and there are no creative or zoom controls and dim-light performance is just coming to practical fruition compared to the "starlight" modes of your average point 'n' shoot camera. GoPros are essentially fixed-focus cameras dependent on electronic cropping and an extremely wide focal length. Their greatest virtues are their ruggedness and a huge variety of mounts and cases.
If you're looking for something rugged and cheap to pack along, there's some superb buys available still on eBay for the Panasonic TZ-5 series of travel-zoom cameras (versatile, typically 28-210 35mm equivalent focal lengths) and they have stainless cases. Mine has served reliably and ruggedly for the last five years.
If you're looking for an all-'round camera that is still "pocketable" and with reasonable low-light versatility (and food shot-specific automated modes!), I can suggest the latest offerings in the Travel Zoom class, particularly the Sony DMC-HX20V (I own one) and the Panasonic TZ-30 (Il Padrone recently got one). My Sony has GPS with tracking that displays in GoogleEarth, and a 35mm-equivalent optical zoom range of 25-500mm, with a "sweet spot" digital zoom that provides better than average digizoom quality to 1000mm equivalent; still not desirable but at least usable (I used it to get the shot of the bad eagle I posted here a couple weeks ago: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4523.msg31453#msg31453 ). It has a number of low-light modes and that food photography mode I mentioned. Despite a small sensor, the processing algorithms do a remarkable job, sometimes layering as many as a half-dozen sequentially-taken automatic shots to minimize noise and give the appearance of a larger sensor than equipped. The automatic macro mode is truly outstanding, as is the sound and video quality with full-1080HD capability. If you wished to go up a notch, Sony's RX-100 is a superb pocketable camera with an enormous sensor for a camera of this size/class. In exchange, it has a greatly reduced range of available focal lengths (a necessary optical compromise).
I come from a deep and longstanding SLR background, but have found I get more actual shots with a pocketable camera simply because it is small enough to actually carry with me - and I do. Can't get those once-in-a-lifetime shots if the big DSLR is back in the drawer at home.
Buying new cameras after even a short gap is like measuring time in dog-years, Andre; a lot of development time has passed since you got that Ixus 300, and I there's a number of possible alternatives should you wish to try something else. I do understand why you'd like to stay with a later iteration of what you have, but thought it worthwhile to mention the two alternatives above. It is possible their menu structure might be even closer to what you have than would be the case with an updated Ixus.
I hope this helps.
All the best,
Dan.
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Thanks for that analysis, Dan. Parts of it are very useful in clearing up questions that I have either not asked yet or put on the back boiler.
However, you're mistaken in you belief that the style of the menus bother me. It's altogether worse than that. It's the presence of the menus I object to. When I want to switch the flash on and off, i don't want to delve through menus, I want to press a button, as on the Ixus.
My ideal camera would have a zooming viewfinder, no touchscreen, and buttons for the flash, the macro, infinite focal length (for taking photographs from behind glass.
The GoPro won't do at all. It's simply too crude. I'll take my chances on smashing a more sophisticated camera.
Gotta sleep.
Ciao.
Andre Jute
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Andre - you might find it useful to consider something like the Canon PowerShot G12, my wife has recently bought one to replace her failing Ixus 860. The G12 is obviously much bigger, and clearly not a 'shirt pocket' camera. The trade off is of course, image quality.
The G12 does have a number of the features you want - buttons for the flash etc, and one of my 'serious photographer' friends uses an earlier version as his carry-around camera.
Gill (mrs sdg) has a good eye for a photograph and sees the camera as a tool rather than a 'techy-toy' she says the fold out screen is useful and finds the icons around the edge help to control the camera rather than get in the way of taking the picture.
regards
sdg.
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I use a Fuji X10. Mechanical zoom, exposure compensation on a dial, a usable viewfinder (not like looking down a tube) and ..... a threaded cable release!! Whoohoo.
Not a shirt pocket camera, but will fit easily in the bar bag. Or the pocket of my cargo shorts. Heavily discounted now the X20 is about to appear.
I have an 18"x12" print made with this camera hanging on my study wall. Not bad for a small sensor.
ian
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I have a samsung EX1. Its one of a batch of cameras that have sensors that are larger than usual found in point and shoots and gives you access to more setting and allow shooting in RAW format. DP review did a recent round up of these cameras here: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2367736880/roundup-enthusiast-zoom-compact-cameras (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/2367736880/roundup-enthusiast-zoom-compact-cameras)
They are not waterproof, but I use a Topeak Tribag http://www.topeak.com/products/Bags/tri_drybag (http://www.topeak.com/products/Bags/tri_drybag) to keep the camera close to hand and dry.
Of them all I'd go for the Olympus XZ2 if I were to buy one now.
If you are interested I'm actually going to be selling the EX1 as I got a shiny new CSC for Christmas.
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Thanks, and keep talking, chaps. I'm amazed at the size and quality and price of the cameras that you fellows take on a bicycle. I imagine you take absolutely wonderful photographs.
But I can't choose a bigger camera, regardless of technological whizbangery or status. Recently I took up sketching, so my pockets have less space after fitting a sketchbook, a water colour kit, and a pencil case for brushes and pens. Sooner or later we'll get to the sort of camera I want (shirtpocketable, zooming viewfinder in addition to LCD, buttons for most used functions rather than delving through menus). If I can't find one of those because technology has passed by my needs, I'll just buy an iPhone and use that as a camera, as I have to carry a phone anyway, and doubling up functions makes sense, or make the Ixus do (there's nothing wrong with it except that it is larger and heavier than newer cameras -- but it fits a shirt pocket even if it drags the shirt skew).
Andre Jute
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As Danneaux mentioned earlier, I have the Panasonic Lumix TZ30 and have been very happy with its functionality. It is a shirt-pocket camera but with a BIG zoom (20X optical), great iA functionality plus a range of scene settings, a custom mode and also fully manual options. Flash is just a single button push and choose from two-three options. No view-finder option, just a very large and clear LCD screen that works very well even in sunlight. The panorama setting is really great to get a wider landscape view, it takes multiple photos then computes them into one image.
I love what I can do with this little beauty :D
(http://cdn.pocket-lint.com/images/4HFP/panasonic-lumix-tz30-compact-camera-review-1.jpg?20120406-132525)
Panorama mode shot - Loch Ard Gorge
(http://i1327.photobucket.com/albums/u666/petesig26/Otways%20and%20%20Shipwreck%20Coast/P1010184.jpg)
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Super photo. A pedalpal has a Panasonic. I'll find out if it's the same model and ask to handle it. Thanks! -- Andre Jute
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I use a Fuji X10. Mechanical zoom, exposure compensation on a dial, a usable viewfinder (not like looking down a tube) and ..... a threaded cable release!! Whoohoo.
Not a shirt pocket camera, but will fit easily in the bar bag. Or the pocket of my cargo shorts. Heavily discounted now the X20 is about to appear.
I have an 18"x12" print made with this camera hanging on my study wall. Not bad for a small sensor.
ian
Ian I have a Fuji X10 too, the best all round camera for Cycle Touring about the World :)
Pete . . . . . . . . .
;)
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Pete
am tempted by the X20..... (my wife is looking longingly at my x10 so there could be a deal there). But not yet - am off to Australia in a couple of weeks to see family (Perth) and will take the X10.
best
ian
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Not being a smarty pants here, but what makes it so good?
I have been listening to all the comments here and there so want to make an informed choice
Thanks
Matt
Ian I have a Fuji X10 too, the best all round camera for Cycle Touring about the World :)
Pete . . . . . . . . .
;)
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Ian I have a Fuji X10 too, the best all round camera for Cycle Touring about the World :)
Pete . . . . . . . . .
;)
I've had an X10 since august.
It's a great camera and takes excellent pictures but I doubt very much its the best all round camera for cycle touring.
The battery life is very poor, you need to carry lots of spares, I have exhausted a battery in less than a day.
Some images suffer from very bad lens flare if shot towards the sun, much worse than any previous camera I have had.
The 4x zoom is good but a longer zoom would be better.
I would still prefer my old Canon S3is for longer tours due to these factors even though the image quality may be slightly lower (its AA batteries last 3 weeks instead of one or two days!).
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Not being a smarty pants here, but what makes it so good?
for me - and most people who like it I would guess - it's the nearest thing to an analogue digital camera. I grew up on film (first serious camera was a second hand Pentax S1 back in 1967). I don't like too many menus and the X10 has a few mechanical features that make handling (for me) easy. I've had a couple of digital SLRS in the past which I've now sold simply because I stopped carrying them with me.
I have an old Leica Digilux 2 which is an amazing camera, just 3 ISO settings, and an aperture ring on the lens and a traditional shutter dial. It's a panasonic body with an f2 leica zoom lens stuck on the front. 5MP sensor but still makes 10"8" prints. Not really suited to the bike though.
The x10 is not perfect by any means - but it feels comfortable in my hand. It has a very nice panorama feature, a useful lowlight mode and I like the Velvia (film) mode. I just shoot jpegs and am happy with the 'out of camera' images. I'm old fashioned I guess. My wife shoots raw and she's a whizz at photoshop. Different strokes ...
But all cameras are a compromise - you have to pick one that most suits your needs. And if you don't like the feel of it when you pick it up, you won't take it with you.
Here's a couple I took with it last summer (not on bike)
ian
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Not being a smarty pants here, but what makes it so good?
I have been listening to all the comments here and there so want to make an informed choice
Thanks
Matt
Why well how about this?
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8228/8506558876_3c96f01153_z.jpg)
1st off it has a very good view finder!
2nd you can if filters to the lens.
3rd it looks like an Old Camera
4th made Strong 8)
And more . . . .
I just like it, If I was to buy the Best Travel Camera it would be a Leica M9 P with a 35mm and a 90mm Len :o But I could Cycle tour half way around the World for the money :'(
http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m9/ (http://en.leica-camera.com/photography/m_system/m9/)
I have had Two Leica M6's and one or four Leica Len's
Pete . . . . . .
:P
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Here's an example of the lens flare issue I have with the Fuji X10 and here's a link (http://www.flickr.com/photos/rualexander/sets/72157631440531288/detail/) to more of my photos with the same problem.
Have any of you X10 users experienced the same issue?
It's not just my camera because I have seen several othe examples of it from other users on flickr.
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Hi are you using a Len Hood?
Why are taking photos into the Sun!
Pete . . .
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Hi are you using a Len Hood?
Why are taking photos into the Sun!
Pete . . .
No I don't use a lens hood because it makes no difference, I tried, the angle to the sun is too low at the point where the flare starts to appear.
I'm taking photos into the sun because that is the best view at those particular times and places, and I've never had a problem doing so with previous cameras. Maybe a small amount of normal lens flare but not the large blue blotches that the X10 produces.
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Ok
Then you need a Leica M9 or M9P!
Pete . . . .
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Hi Rual!
Sympathy and empathy your way. As an intentional sun-shooter myself, I've found the problem worsening on recent digital cameras. I never had a single problem with my old Pentax Optio S4 from 8 or so years ago, but then Pentax had some remarkable lens coatings, courtesy in part due to Hoya, now long-gone as well. Pentax is now just a name compared to days past; it has now been folded into the Ricoh Imaging group and is not the same company as provided my old SLR and early digital cameras and lenses.
Small sensors (relatively, compared to DSLRs, anyway) and long zoom ranges (my current has an optical range of 25-500mm in 35mm equivalent) have led to a greater incidence of flare, and much of it seems to be off-axis to the light source, where no lens hood really helps -- just as you've observed. My Panasonic TZ-9 with Leica-branded optics has lens flare nearly identical to yours in color, placement, and shape.
A more recent problem that has cropped up with some cameras like my Sony HX20 in odd circumstances is sensor flare (it seems nearly immune to lens flare, and sensor flare examples have been uploaded by other owners so it is not just my example). It seems to affect small-sensor, big-range travel-zooms in particular, and is a reflection of as many as 9 flares in a pattern reflected on the rear lens element and then picked up by the imager in a self-exposure. I've found a raised hand just out of the field of view does wonders at eliminating it completely, but I have to watch for it. It takes a just-right shallow-angle oblique entry of light to cause it. I can't cause it even shooting deliberately toward the sun. It is either No Problem the bulk of the time or Oops, the Aliens have Landed (see attached samples I just shot below). A bit different from your case, which looks like a genuine lens flare to me.
Best,
Dan. (...who takes photos with flare, but didn't want this kind)
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I like my photos to exhibit flair but abhor flare.
Andre Jute
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Yeh, what you said, Andre! :D
Best,
Dan. (...who thinks the rule is if "i" after "a", then no "e" at the end :P)
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When I was looking at cameras around six months ago I seem to rememeber the x10 lens flare being a known issue. I think that they revised the sensor to resolve the issue, you may be able to send you x10 to Fuji for a replacement lens. Myself I ended up with a Nikon 1 series. It replaced an aging cannon dslr and is a revelation to me, image quality at least as good as the Cannon except the colours where the Nikon is far superior, but compact enough to throw in the bar bag with a wide(fish) angle and a telephoto lens. Very pleased with it. I am no serious photographer I like a manual zoom and apprrture control but do not need the other features of a dslr .
As a teaser for danneaux- I was out with it at the weekend on a 95 mile shake down ride of my newly finished Sherpa. Pictures to follow next week when I am home ( currently away for business)
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As a teaser for danneaux- I was out with it at the weekend on a 95 mile shake down ride of my newly finished Sherpa. Pictures to follow next week when I am home
Oh! Looking forward to seeing the photos, Mark. I know this one has been "in the oven" cooking for awhile, and the best things are always worth waiting for!
Best,
Dan.
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I recently upgraded my Samsung ex1 to a panasonic G5, now I'll be taking a bar bag with this and a tele and mid zoom lens. The image quality is fantastic. I have to say though that if I were to choose one specifically for taking with me on the bike it would be at the moment the Sony RX100 with its huge sensor for the segment, or the panasonic LX7 (or LX5 as you can get them reasonably cheap at the moment). Lens flare is a problem with small sensor cameras with fast lenses... the X10 definitely had problems with white orbs turning up in shots. There was a lot of wailing about it on various photo fora.
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Dan. (...who thinks the rule is if "i" after "a", then no "e" at the end :P)
You mean like..... flair ???
(http://www.comycom.de/images/gross/70er_schlaghosetapetenmuster_dots_gruen_001.jpg)
Or flare like this??
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/553969_499124766795829_1723077440_n.jpg)
Sorry about the off-topic :-X
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there lovely flares ;D ;D
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You mean like..... flair ???
(http://www.comycom.de/images/gross/70er_schlaghosetapetenmuster_dots_gruen_001.jpg)
They certainly wear flares but whether they do so with flair is a matter of opinion. Me, I'm not sure I could manage not to look embarrassed, and I used to dress in Kerry Green and Aubergine flares out of Fletcher Stretchers (ask the Australians to explain) and in cashmere jackets I ordered from Jetset Tailors in Singapore by the never-failing rubric, "Do you have any left of that bolt of cloth that was too loud for the Duke," the Duke being the cowboy actor John Wayne, who was told by his wife that if he ordered a jacket in a cloth that gave me no pause whatsoever, he was headed straight for the divorce courts!
Andre Jute