Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Andybg on November 15, 2012, 07:54:40 AM
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I recently went out for a cycle ride with my Father. Something which I have not done since I was in my teens. He is in his early 70's and had one of his knees replaced about 3 years ago.
He is thinking of doing more cycling as a form of excercise and also as it allows him to use a scenic shortcut into town that is unavailable to cars.
The issue is that although he has no issues now turning the pedals he does have great difficulty gtting on and off the bike in respect to swinging his leg over.
I would have suggested a ladies frame but he is over 6 foot (6'2ish) so not sure what would be the best option for him.
He did get a folding bike but although easy to get on and off it is a bit on the rickety side for his 100kg.
Although he did like my Rohloff bike I think he is thinking more of a der budget
Any suggestions appreciated.
Regards
Andy
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The Dutch brand Gazelle has a really low instep bike for people with those issues. It's literally a U with two wheels each end it's that low :)
Pashley does roadsters they may have one that is tall enough. And as the Dutch can be quite tall...maybe there's a big enough size for you.
Shall I have a look for you for ladies bikes?
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I am not sure you will find a ladies bike that is big enough. He has like a 37" inside leg so a big bike needed.
Many thanks for the help
Andy
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Hi Andy,
The Moulton TSR series suits inside leg up to 36" according the brochure: http://www.moultonbicycles.co.uk/models/TSR8.html
Maybe a bit of creativity with seatpost and stem length would stretch it to 37"
I have a TSR30 and think it's brilliant (in a different way to my Club Tour).
Cheers,
pj
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Those Moulton frames really are a work of art (or work of engineering depending how you look at it)
950ukp to 16500ukp makes a Thorn look decidedly low cost. LOL
Will add it to the list of possibilities although with no need for packing the bike down I think it will be a lot of extra cost for little practical gain.
Just as an aside - how have you found it for transporting? I do quite a lot of travelling and have considered a folding bike.
Cheers
Andy
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http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-step-through (http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-step-through)
This is a bit like Andre's bike, notched down several levels. The 61 cm frame is big.
This bike also has a 65 cm option which is surely plenty big enough but it is not so low slung:
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-aka-pastoorsfiets (http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-aka-pastoorsfiets)
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I like this bike for distinguished gentlemen approaching middle age: http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-kruisframe-step-through London dealer: http://www.bikefix.co.uk/shop/index.php
This my bike, based on the same frame: http://coolmainpress.com/AndreJute'sUtopiaKranich.pdf
Give my regards to your dad.
Andre Jute
EDIT: I see Jim is there already. Mine is 59mm and you can see that it is already a huge bike. You fit these bikes by choosing the frame which leaves the smallest amount of seat post showing when your legs are correctly extended on the pedals, and then adjusting the stem length and angle to suit your preferred back inclination. That results in everyone choosing big frames.
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http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/workcycles-faqs-overviews/overview-fr8-transport-bikes/ (http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/workcycles-faqs-overviews/overview-fr8-transport-bikes/)
Hmmm, here is a bike... says it can fit riders up to 7'3", very heavy, and very low slung.
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I have the Transport Double-Tube:
http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-transport-double-tube (http://www.workcycles.com/home-products/handmade-city-bicycles/workcycles-transport-double-tube)
in the 61 cm size. Definitely a big bike, but I have just a 32 inch leg length. This bike comes in a 70 cm size which would be utterly huge. But it is not low slung.
With its upright seating posture, I ride perched way up high - I can look Hummer drivers in the eye, which really surprises them. But that was in Oregon... we don't see so many Hummers in upstate NY, or maybe its the economy!
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Thanks Guys
I have sent all the links over to him.
I am trying to keep the motivation going on the idea of him getting a new bike.
I will take some time and read your essay Andre - It looks fasinating.
Thanks
Andy
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http://www.fietsplaza.nl/stads-fietsen-dames-sparta-maxx-damesfiets-voor-extra-grote-mensen-p-1243.html
66 cm frame! If your dad likes it I can contact them if they ship to the UK. It's a typical Dutch bike, so it won't be super light, but you don't need special clothing, hub gear/mud guard means it's near indestructible etc etc.
Option 2 is a second hand 80s mixte from e-bay...they used to do male models in these so there might be a tall one knocking about.
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That is one big frame.
Should have never doubted your ability to find one!!!
Have forwarded on the info
Thanks again
Andy
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Might be dear, a mixte is a much lower instep and there's old racing mixtes on e-bay.
All depends on the budget ;)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Vintage-Ladies-Raleigh-Wisp-Mixte-Frame-10-speed-Racer-Road-Bike-/281000983159?pt=UK_Bikes_GL&hash=item416cf6ba77
Way too small, but Peugeot has done male models. Will be a cheaper start compared to getting new Dutch Roadster and also lighter.
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Will keep a look out for the Mixte models.
I dont think the budget is an issue as long as he sees he is going to get use out of it.
Andy
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Hi Andy!
I'm late to the party, having been occupied with non-cycling things this week (Yes! Really! It is tragic...) I was away and didn't see your thread till now.
I'm not sure about frame size, but if step-over height is an issue for your Dad, I don't think many bikes come lower than Biria Bicycles' Easy Boarding Series: http://www.biria.com/series/easy-boarding The stepover is as low as 6in/15.24cm. They're very popular with people who ride with rheumatoid arthritis and, yes, knee replacements -- at least in the early post-recovery days for the latter, when it is a real struggle to bend the knee far enough when raising a leg. Nice, too, following hip replacements, when there is considerable concern about rotating the joint outwards while muscle tension is low (pop-outs and dislocations result in some "discomfort" <= A polite, understated medical code word for agonizing pain)
I've actually tried one of these Biria Easy Boarders briefly, and was amazed it had *any* frame rigidity given the extremely low opening, but it really did amazingly well thanks to the use of very large-diameter tubing.
Tavara ( http://www.vanraam.co.uk/low-step-through-bike--+--senior-bicycle/itm/13934 ) make a low-standover bike with such a laid-back seat tube angle, it is possible to easily place both feet flat on the ground when stopped. This is also true of a number of semi-recumbent upright designs, many of which also share a low stepover.
Stevens of Germany make a nice, low-stepover frame that is remarkably light, shown here: http://www.stevensbikes.de/2010/index.php?bik_id=142&lang=en_US
Some of these are available with a pedelec/battery option, or can be easily converted. Looking at Andre's experience and that of others, a pedelec option might be a nice option for your father, and would certainly take some of the strain off his knees. Kalkhoff has some nice examples with bottom-bracket located motors, shown among their offerings here: http://www.kalkhoff-bikes.com/int/en/models/2012.html
There's a really nice roundup of bikes for the differently-abled in this PDF: www.getcycling.org.uk/media/bikes-not-barriers.pdf
Getcycling.org have a Disability Bike Festival with over 100 bicycle models to try out in person. See: http://www.getcycling.org.uk/media/BNB_POSTER.pdf ...and... http://www.getcycling.org.uk/specialneeds.php UK residents can request the show visit their immediate area. Details are here: http://bikesnotbarriers.org/ Getcycling is in York and has a contact page here: http://www.getcycling.org.uk/contact-us.php
There are also many <cough> recumbents which have a very low stepover as well. The difficulty for people with knee trouble can come from rising to stand from the very low riding position.
I hope this helps your father, Andy. It seems to me the more options and choices he has, the more likely he is to find the "best" solution for his needs. Please give him a hearty "well done!" for me on his persistence to ride again.
All the best,
Dan.
*Andy!* Here's a low-frame solution for your cargo and grandchild-carrying needs: http://www.circecycles.com/products/helios/brut.php ...and... http://www.circecycles.com/products/helios/childcarrying.php One of those and an Atlas trailer ( http://www.circecycles.com/products/atlas/ ), and you're set for anything. Or, one of these: http://clevercycles.com/blog/2011/09/22/xtravois-2-0-our-oregon-manifest-bike/
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As always Dan a very thorough reply to the post.
Can not believe how low those Biria bikes are. Just shows what can be done now with profiled frame designs rather than the confines of joining straight frame tubes.
The electric assist is definetly a possibility and having looked into the solutions that are available today it is nice to know that it is there as a future option when the needed both for my father and at some point for me (a few years yet I hope)
I think the A2B Hybrid http://a2b.ultramotor.com/en/a2b_hybrid_26 looks like a possible solution straight out of the bag. I am not sure if the frame would be low enough (no harm in trying) but it does look look like a well put together package with a unisex style frame.
I have sent your post verbatim to my father as I dont think I could have assimilated then summarised the information any better.
Many thanks
Andy
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I have sent your post verbatim to my father...
Oh! ;D Really glad if it will help, Andy.
The A2B Hybrid surely is a cleanly-styled bike with a number of innovations. Did you notice the nicely integrated kickstand mount on the left-rear dropout? Very thoughtful, especially with the elevated chainstay design that would otherwise preclude a 'stand. The headlight mount is nicely integrated, and -- yes! -- even a tiny T-bar for mounting and adjusting the angle of the panel display.
All the best to you both in your quest for a solution,
Dan.
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I bow to your bike knowledge and google skills Dan ;D
Gazelle does a U shaped framed bike marketed at older people, I saw one in a local shop here at £1200 (ouuuuuuuuch) but couldn't find an UK link.
I am curious how they solve flex issues on such mega low instep frames :)
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Looks like this Gazelle comes in a 66 cm size:
http://www.gazellebikes.com/Collection%20bikes/Urban_bicycles/Comfort/Tour-Populair-Export?type=men (http://www.gazellebikes.com/Collection%20bikes/Urban_bicycles/Comfort/Tour-Populair-Export?type=men)
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I am curious how they solve flex issues on such mega low instep frames
Hi Jawine! Thanks for the kind words.
As far as I can see from hefting a few of these and looking at the (very, very few) published weight and tubing specs, a number of these bikes are made stiffer thanks to large-diameter, thick-wall tubing, and often aluminum at that. The key word is "stiffer", not "stiff". The several I tried were amazingly solid thanks to the big tubing, but the key is they aren't intended for loaded touring or for really athletic riding. For their target audience -- gentle riders who are unlikely to exert great force on the handlebars and bottom bracket -- they seem to work very well. Get it just right, and the stiffness of the large tubing is offset just enough by the frame design to offer riding comfort.
I restored a 1970 Astra (Motobecane) u-frame Folder for my father ( http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4259.0;attach=1423 ), a popular format for folding bikes at the time. Not only is the mild-steel frame open and only mildly oversized, the hinge is placed at the point of highest stress. I am always astounded it doesn't collapse under riding, but it works just fine. The designers wisely spec'd 145mm cranks to limit pedaling torque.
I think I'd compare the large, open hoop frame of an extreme low-standover bike to the forward boom on a recumbent. No triangulation, but the big tubes make up for it.
Best,
Dan.
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Some amazingly low stepovers here. But I'm not surprised they managed to make them stiff enough to serve their intended market. It's a sort of reverse Colin Chapman Conundrum: Low stepover, thick ali tubes, stiffness, choose the right two and you can have all three.
What makes a diamond frame in ali so unpleasant to ride in the wrong circumstances is also what makes a wave frame workable. But, for the amount of visible material, the weight of these bikes will astound you you. Ali in those diameter just isn't light because the wall thickness cannot be scaled down very much, as steel can. (Well, it can, but you'd have to machine it externally or draw it internally in ridges rather than a constant wall thickness. Bike designers, an ultra-conservative lot, would go crazy at such a novel idea, and accountants will reach for their ulcer medicine at the cost. It would be much cheaper to weld up a small-tube triangulated beam.)
Andre Jute
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Andre, thanks for pointing out the workcycles website on this thread.
http://www.bakfiets-en-meer.nl/workcycles-faqs-overviews/faq-about-workcycles/
They have a very interesting product and business philosophy, and the most interesting set of links I've seen on a website for ages. I'm still reading a few now...
Thanks again
Ian
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Just as an aside - how have you found it for transporting? I do quite a lot of travelling and have considered a folding bike.
Hi Andy,
Sorry for the tardy response.
Moultons don't fold as such but the TSR has an optional 'demountable ' frame. (Extra 100 GBP and about 250 grams) I went with this option as it was partly my justifiaction for purchase. The frame separates at the centre and there are cable splitters in the necessary places. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV9VAE2g4Zk
This will allow it to fit into the boot of a small car.
Removing the pedals and seatpost and removing the handlebar from the stem then allows the bike to fit into 2 bags with the wheels still in the frame.
It takes about 5 minutes to separate and get into the bags and about twice as long to reverse the process. The bags fit the luggage racks on Eurostar and TGV.
I wouldn't recommend it for mixed commuting where the Brompton is King, but on the other hand it's a great ride and behaves very much like a conventional bike with the added advantage of front and rear suspension.
Cheers,
pj
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Andre, thanks for pointing out the workcycles website on this thread.
You're welcome, Ian. I try to put something back for all the generous help I have received here, especially when I was just starting out specifying my own components, and then later when I owned the only Rohloff for 300 miles around. I actually knew some other Rohloff owners on the net, but unfortunately on a conference where any conversation was soon hijacked by the moremachothanthoujerks and the political idiots and grudge harbourers, which made gathering worthwhile information a teeth-grinding experience, and one fraught with expensive risks. You fellows are so much nicer!
Andre Jute
I know only the best people!
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As "they" ought to say Andre,
"you meet the nicest people on a Thorn."
Sorry Honda, http://www.hondanews.com/channels/powersports-heritage/photos/honda-s-1963-you-meet-the-nicest-people-ad
Thanks again
Ian