Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Andybg on October 23, 2012, 07:16:39 PM
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Being Scottish with a Yorkshire heratige, I am not adverse to a second hand bargain. Bearing this in mind I have three Thorn bikes which I have bought second hand. Being a bit of a ebay peruser too, I have a view of the following second hand values of Thorns.
Almost immediately they are built they seem to loose about 20% in value.
As soon as they leave the shop another 10% drops off the value
Then over the next 3-4 years they seem to drop down to a minimum of 50% of there current purchase price and then they just seem to sit there not depreciating at all.
Interested to hear other peoples views on this.
Andy
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Andy i sold my Look kx light with full Dura ace groupset ksyrium ssl wheels new mitchlin pro race 3 tires fizik saddle beauti full carbon bike with not a mark on it pristine.(why oh why did i sell you baby) :'( :'(
cant exactly remember the full cost when i first bought it the frame alone cost me 1300euro and i got a deal on that i reckon 2500 sold it for 1200 :-[
ok put me up against the wall and shoot me.
you never get your money back on cars/ bikes,i was selling my new guitar Yamaha LL16 £650 i paid there on sale in the uk for £600 i was selling it for 600 euro a guy offered me 400 DAN does not allow bad langauge on the forum ;D ;D
so if you buy a top end thorn then never sell it you will loose your nuts simples. ;)
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Hi Andy!
I think your analysis spot-on matches what I have seen from several years of looking at eBay offerings and SJSC's own discounted prices for shop demonstrators and used bikes.
Unlike you, I've never bought a used Thorn (which may be owned by more maintenance-conscious people) and I have had terrible luck with used bikes I've carefully surveyed with an eye toward buying. It seems the ones I find most often offer only a usable frame as a way to collect a whole bikeful of dead parts. Here, it seems even expensive bikes are purchased, then ridden into the ground without the least bit of maintenance. There have been exceptions -- the 1968 Schwinn Sting-Ray I got as a kid, the Birdy Folder, and the tandem. I think the key there was each was essentially new at the time of my (re)purchase. The Raleigh Gran Sports was a total disaster, but I have only myself to blame for that one, purchasing it outdoors in a heavy down pour (when I couldn't examine it properly) and when I had been awake for 63 hours straight and was sleep-deprived, even for me.
<nods> Agreed with jags...if you get a nice bike, it is hard to get full return on the original cost. The real return on investment comes if you keep it and ride the daylights out of it, enjoying every moment. That's a priceless return on investment. There's some good bargains to be had if you look carefully, and especially if the bike has been well-maintained and/or has had little actual use.
All the best,
Dan. (Everyone rides a used bike...)
Dan.
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But what happens when the current purchase price rises. My 2006 raven tour was £1200, now they are £2099, so excluding all the upgrades I've made what is my bike worth?
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Good subject this. I have been watching Thorns on UK eBay for some months and many appear not to have sold. Are they over priced or is it the poor economy and folk tightening their belts? Who knows?
I guess they're worth whatever folks can pay.
And then there is always the debate about the extra dosh for a new one giving you peace of mind and a bit more of a "glow" ;)
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@geocycle
It seems to be that the current price rather than the original price that seems to be the determining factor. I want to stress that my observations are only based on what the market appears willing to pay and is not a way of trying to say what someones bike is worth.
My old battered and bruised Nomad probably has a market value of a few hundred pounds but a personal value of being priceless.
Where these findings have helped me is that I know I can buy a used Thorn, run it for a year to see how it suits me and if it doesnt I can move it on for little or no loss.
Once I have decided what suits me best I may be tempted to a new Thorn for life.
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Continuing the pleasant conversation over a cup of virtual coffee and a pasty, having met-up after a ride to the corner cafe'...
But what happens [to the value of an older model] when the current purchase price rises
This is a really good question, geo'! Over on this side of the pond, inflation does slightly raise the price of older bikes...but that increase in value is offset by the aging of components and drivetrains. Currently buyers generally don't place as much value on older equipment, figuring manufacturers are improving components yearly so older stuff can't be as good (I disagree) and 7-speed gets passed over for 9- or 10-speed in the buyer's value rankings.
Sadly, I've found component upgrades largely fail to increase the resale value by much...because they have also aged. Much the same holds true in the used-car market, where custom wheels and plus-size tires with minus-profiles increase value only fractionally.
And then there is always the debate about the extra dosh for a new one giving you peace of mind and a bit more of a "glow
There's a certain cache about "buying new" and a bike -- like anything else -- is truly "new" only once and only for the original buyer. I sometimes come across the same people on my 109-mile regular loop, and I notice they are often riding new bikes each year. I spoke to a gentleman early last summer about his, and he said, "Oh, this is my 'new' bike, the one you remember was last summer's". Since he buys a bike annually, I guess "new" lasts about a summer, each year. Though it sounds cliché, everything really is new only briefly, and only for the first buyer. As soon as one takes possession, the item becomes "used" to anyone else and...sometimes, even to oneself. I buy bikes rarely, so often find myself referring to one that is 20 years old as my "new" bike 'cos it is the "last" bike I bought. That's all changed with the recent Thorn ownership. The Nomad is my "new" bike, without doubt, and will likely remain so for the next 20 or years.
And, yes, there is peace of mind to buying new. There is warranty coverage unavailable otherwise, and for a large purchase, this added security is worth something to a lot of folks.Are they over priced or is it the poor economy and folk tightening their belts?
Probably a bit of both in these times, but the prices are still enough that I think buyers go through a "cost-plus" analysis and do valence-weighting, where they juggle the increment between used and new, and make the decision based on the incremental value rather than the absolute cost. They figure, "I'm paying x if I get this...but by adding a bit more, I get new". They don't look at the total so much as the increment.
And, too, there is something special about "New" -- It looks factory-fresh, and you get to put the first scratch on it and remember the occasion! You build a shared history together, and that counts for something when you're talking about a working tool that facilitates journeys. "People" (meaning also me) even anthropomorphize (bestow human characteristics on) their bikes, talking about "When we were in..." and "I remember that fall we took..." and it isn't a royal We but an inclusive one. Some folks (also me) actually name their bikes. Flipping that on its head, there's a bias against used for many people, one perpetuated by original sellers for commercial gain. The very word -- "Used" -- means the items has had use, placed on it by someone else; "New" is fresh and unblemished. Much of it is perception, rather than reality. I grew up hearing the phrase, "Don't buy somebody else's problems!". A car dealership across the river from me doesn't sell used cars...it sells "pre-owned ones". When I asked a salesman why, he shrugged his shoulders and said, "'Just sounds better". Doesn't to me, but then I've bought a lot of used things (generally not bikes) that worked out well, and after one "new" dog, every following pet was a "used cat", all equally beloved.I guess they're worth whatever folks can pay.
Prices in the used market may well be a better refection of the actual value of an item. To a certain, the market has reached equilibrium, and values are more closely determined by what people are willing to pay, no longer influenced by hype and advertising that often result in inflated prices when new products are first introduced.
All the best,
Dan. (...Would "experienced" be a better word for "used"?)
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My two e-bay uk cents:
It seems bikes over a certain start price (eg starting over £600) are harder to sell. This is a general e-bay problem and starting at 0.99p with a reserve is a better tactic. Not being willing to ship also hampers sales no matter how good the bike is.
But the Thorn XTC (which I have via e-bay) always still sells, even though it's a 10 years old bike! Mine was £460, and only because the bike shop hadn't a clue what make/model it was (I figured it out with help of guys here) and it needed a freehub body as listed on ad. That is the cheapest I have seen, any other ones the last 6 months have been more expensive, with a paint near mint/lugged one selling for £780 (!) via SJS. I was lusting after it ;D
Certain other "classic" Thorns also seem to sell well also, but it could be the handmade in England that works well for them, as there is a trend for this.
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@geocycle
It seems to be that the current price rather than the original price that seems to be the determining factor. I want to stress that my observations are only based on what the market appears willing to pay and is not a way of trying to say what someones bike is worth.
My old battered and bruised Nomad probably has a market value of a few hundred pounds but a personal value of being priceless.
Where these findings have helped me is that I know I can buy a used Thorn, run it for a year to see how it suits me and if it doesnt I can move it on for little or no loss.
Once I have decided what suits me best I may be tempted to a new Thorn for life.
All very encouraging, so my raven has done 16,000 miles for maybe £100-200! Brilliant value and some justification of the high purchase price. Maybe I can afford that mercury after all.....!
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I have bought and sold a few Used bikes over the years. I don't have any of them left as there was always something not quite right for me and found buying new was the only way I could get what i wanted . Otherwise I would need to spend money on a used bike which kind of defeats the object unless you can get it for a "good" price, then it might be worth it.
Some makes such as Moultons seem to hold their value very well and I have bought 2 of those used and resold them 2 years after for no loss.
On the otherhand I am trying to sell my Mountain Bike at the moment and have had no "bites" at all. Too many around I think and retailers are off loading 2012 stock at the moment at big discounts. So the right price, ease of selling and the Brand/model of bike are inter linked.
I agree with Andy's assessment as it seems it is the current price that seems to be the determining factor.
Thorns and Rohloffs are more thin on the ground in the used market so ought to sell easily at the "right" price. My RST is 6 years old and if I were to sell it for 50%
of current price I would be happy and I think the new owner would also be happy. (especially as it suffered no damage in my recent Off, only superficial on bar end and Barley bag. I think i protected it with my hip!).
Steve
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Glad to hear the bike is ok Steve.
I remember when I small after coming off my bike always running over to check the bike before I checked myself. My mother always used to say dont worry about the bike which I couldn't understand at that age. I thought I'll mend all by myself but if the bike is broken it will cost money to fix.
As I have got older I've nearly changed my outlook - honestly
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Thanks Dan
Nice to be quoted so many times in your answer.
It has occurred to me re the pricing, if only a few thorns come up over six months or so it can be harder to get a best price guestimate.
If I want an ipod 3rd generation 8mb - then when I look on ebay I can see a dozen or more.
All I need to worry about is screen condition and postage.
When I find a thorn - the spec can be so different from the last one I saw 4 months ago.
Good observation about it only being new once.
Matt (I will buy one one day - honest)
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Interesting topic Andy.
Having obtained 'Torla', my Thorn Raven Tour, via eBay, it is indeed my 'new' bike.
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3916.0 (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3916.0)
Luckily when it arrived it's condition from SJS was just like a new bike (low milage and after a thorough clean up), I convinced myself that it was new! (It is a 2009 model and I paid the 50% as observed!). With further personalisation, it is even 'newer'!
The fact that anything second-hand is inferior is fast becoming the ways of the old world in my opinion. Perhaps as the economy continues to stumble along the bottom, the value of second hand may increase due to older items often being better made, with better quality materials and the craftsmanship of old.
I agree on your second hand valuation observations Andy. And I am quite happy with that! If you buy a second hand car, the value drops annually. If you buy a new car, they say that as soon as it is driven off the forecourt, some say the value drops 25%.
In relation to Brooks saddles, I have been following a few on eBay, and am impressed by the value that many old saddles are achieving. In years ahead maybe our trusty Thorn mounts will still maintain that 50% second hand price. If so, I would be very happy.
In the meantime, each Thorn ride and tour with that assured reliability will add value to the owner. Its not all about the money. To me 'Torla' is already priceless in my eye.
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Really nice looking bike stuntpilot. I think the only issue with second hand is that you are taking a gamble on what has happened to it in its past and it sounds like you have fallen lucky. I think it is a shame they have sort of discontinued the Tour you have. With the downgrading of the load capability the Nomad is now the only heavy duty expedition bike left in the line up.
Best of luck with Torla and her new life with you
Andy
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Intersesting topic.
Thorns are very expensive bikes, most worth more than my car! Ebay is not a great way to estimate the value of something because there are few people who can afford such specialist equipment and I would have thought the market for these bikes was fairly limmited and values can vary widly depending on getting more than one interested buyer .
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Yes, very interesting subject!
I am trying to sell my Commutour and ebay seems to be the only way to value properly such a bike. The price I put on here was what I thought was a fair price but the lack of interest (no contact at all, not even one offer) makes me think that that price is too high. I accept that but not knowing how to value my bike, I will flog it on ebay and see what the market gives me.
It is hard to value because yes it is a rather old bike, but on the other side, it is a good bike in good condition and, as mentioned above as it seems to matter for some, "handmade in the UK".
I'll try a £0.99 auction with reserve price and see what happens.
On the other side, I was ready to pay £750 for my Sherpa mk2 on ebay (compared with £1100+ usually asked for them on sjs) and got it for less (£670).
The used bike market is a mystery...
Happy bidding ;D
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I am trying to sell my Commutour...The price I put on here was what I thought was a fair price but the lack of interest (no contact at all, not even one offer)
I'm just astonished there was no interest, but it may be the timing just wasn't right, or it could be the price. I'll try a £0.99 auction with reserve price and see what happens.
Part of me wants to shout "Noooooooooo" out of concern it might go for next-to-nothing when it is obviously a nice bike.
Of course, eBay success is a fickle thing and varies by the phase of the moon, season, demand, and location, but I have found (Stateside) it works pretty well to start the bidding at the rock-bottom-would-be-kinda-disappointed-but-okay price I would accept. This way, I can get a feel for the market without getting completely burned. I think of it as an "open" reserve, and if it doesn't sell, then I can pull and relist it with another price in mind. I've seen some really nice bikes go very cheaply, which is a joyous wedding for the buyer and a sad funeral for the seller.
I wish you the best of luck!
Hoping for a good outcome,
Dan. (Ever notice...eBay doesn't seem to offer "Dutch auctions" anymore?)
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The problem with second hand bikes in the UK at least is that government have basically set the prices on used bikes through the residuals charges in the cycle scheme. This says that after 18 months a bike over 500 quid is only worth 25% of purchase price, at 4 years old it's only worth 7%... now obviously caveat that with something is worth what people will pay for it, and in the right market a Thorn is going to be more, but to the general populous is going to be hard to get much more.
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with second hand bikes in the UK at least is that government have basically set the prices on used bikes through the residuals charges in the cycle scheme.
I...had no idea!
Huh. Huh! :-\ That must be discouraging when it comes to a much-beloved and very fine older bike....now obviously caveat that with something is worth what people will pay for it, and in the right market a Thorn is going to be more, but to the general populous is going to be hard to get much more.
I'd always wondered why used Thorn prices were a bit higher than others but still looked very good from this side of the water...
All the best,
Dan. (See? 'Learn something new ever'day!)
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I think pert of the issue is that the Commutour is not a very common model and therefore it is difficult to know a value for the bike and also the market for it will be very up and down. Certainly on ebay you will reach a wider market but you might not get the right customer at the time you are selling so I would suggest putting a sensible reserve on the bike.
Given the age of the components I would suggest a reserve of 250 and hopefully you will get a much higher sale but atleast if it does go you will know it has not gone for nothing.
Earlier in the year I sold an immaculate Raleigh Touriste Reynolds 531 that was worth around 300ukp and it sold on ebay for 150ukp because I had not put a reserve and few were interested at the time. I was kicking myself for letting it go for that.
Best of Luck
Andy
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Depending on the age of the bike selling second hand you're probably going to get more money by stripping it down and selling the parts separately. Bit like the used car (stolen car!) market....
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In relation to Brooks saddles, I have been following a few on eBay, and am impressed by the value that many old saddles are achieving. In years ahead maybe our trusty Thorn mounts will still maintain that 50% second hand price. If so, I would be very happy.
Brooks saddles mold to the contorts of your butt so its a bit dumb to buy a used one as it will probably never fit.
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Some makes such as Moultons seem to hold their value very well and I have bought 2 of those used and resold them 2 years after for no loss.
I'd agree with that. I sold my 4-year old TSR at about 70% new value to part-finance my future Thorn. Brompton is another make that holds value very well - a few years ago I sold a 6 year old Brompton for more than 50% new price to upgrade to the post-2003 longer wheelbase frame.
Other than that, I tend to keep my bikes. I don't think I would get more than a token price for any of the large-wheel ones (all now more than 20 years old). Maybe they will start getting antique value if I keep them long enough.
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I've seen a Commutour sell around £400 on e-bay, if you offer shipping (Yello does a good price to ALL of the UK including NI) you will increase bidding.
Bike shops should have boxes for you to put it in.
There's a place that does one-off insurance too forgot the name, but can get it if you really don't want a risk.
I guess the trick is to buy a "niche" bike like a Brompton, Thorn, Pashley...they're a bit like iPhones even the older models still aren't super cheap :P
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Offering shipping definitely widens the potential number of buyers. I'll see what I can find.
Cheers,
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http://www.collectmyparcel.com/other/bike_delivery.html
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I saw that too ;) I'll try their services and put feedback here.
Cheers,
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Excuse me for bumping this one up, but I would appreciate comments on the following.
I have been looking for a second hand Nomad for some time now
One is sitting on ebay at the moment. :-X
The spec is exactly what I would be wanting from SJS ;D
I have costed the bike as if I were buying it new. :o
Given all the variables I can think of and those I can't ;)
Is it reasonable ( I love that word - covers everything ;D ) for me to bid up to two thirds of my calculated 'new' value?
Matthew
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Excuse me for bumping this one up, but I would appreciate comments on the following.
I have been looking for a second hand Nomad for some time now
One is sitting on ebay at the moment. :-X
The spec is exactly what I would be wanting from SJS ;D
I have costed the bike as if I were buying it new. :o
Given all the variables I can think of and those I can't ;)
Is it reasonable ( I love that word - covers everything ;D ) for me to bid up to two thirds of my calculated 'new' value?
Matthew
I would have thought so.
The only difference between a new Nomad and a second hand one (assuming you know its the right size) is the original owner warranty offered. If you are the original owner and should the Rohloff hub break, Thorn will post out a brand new hub and wheel anywhere in the world. If you get a second hand one then they wont. That said, Rohloffs pretty much dont break. Aside from the warranty only applying to the original owner, Thorns are so well made that a 10 year old bike can easily be restored to the kind of quality it had when brand new (minus a few scratches of course).
So I probably wouldnt go much higher than 2/3 but 1/3 of a high end spec Nomad is £1000 so its a huge saving.
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This is a question that depends very much on what value you put on the first-owner warranty.
I wouldn't go over half the price of the bike new in that spec, at most to 60% if the bike has very low miles, i.e. is near new. If you wait for the sales, you can generally buy something near the spec you want for 75-80% of the new price. Two thirds is too close to the cost of patience.
This may seem harsh (especially to those who recently paid the full retail price) but the value of that first-owner warranty, effectively for your life, is very, very high. You should consider that, while a Rohloff rarely breaks, when it does it has to go to Bridgewater or Germany for repair; your local self-styled "bike mechanic" will just do further damage. You could be up for enormous carriage charges (both ways) unless you despoke the hub each time. (It's not the weight but the size of the wheel that gives the couriers grief, for which they charge you through the neck.) Plus unknown charges at Rohloff for labour and parts.
You can guess I value the guarantee, and the attitude that goes with it, and the service that results, including the guarantee's unspoken but widely known extensions, very highly indeed!
Andre Jute
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The seller who recently withdrew the Nomad from eBay just told me that it sold for more than he paid for it!
Food for thought.