Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: George Edward on October 03, 2012, 05:34:01 AM
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Well I hope you all might be fine here . I am concerned about the fitness and what i think is cycling a best exercise for the same purpose . So i think that the best way is to go for long distance cycling . I have yet to buy the new bicycle but unable to decide which brand is best which can help me without any problem . Your ideas would be appreciable .
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Hi George!
You ask a very good question that has no universal answer!
Put simply, the very "best" bicycle is the one that is best for you, and best suited for a particular purpose or the way you intend to ride most often. There's no single correct answer for everyone! Each bicycle is a compromise to a degree, but it is possible to select one that is nearly perfect if you choose carefully. Of course, there is a whole universe of bicycle brands and models to choose from. Many are good, even outstanding for any number of reasons. Getting the "right" one for you can take a little care in selection.
This being the Thorn Cycles Forum, you'll overwhelmingly receive the answer "Thorn is the best brand!" simply because we have that interest -- and brand -- in common. Thorn make a variety of bicycles to fit any number of needs. If you haven't yet visited, I suggest you take a look at Thorn's models home page, here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/models.html
Each model in the current Thorn lineup has its own downloadable/viewable brochure, and Andy Blance (Thorn's designer) has really gone all-out in carefully describing the advantages of each as well as indicating their suitability for purpose.
Surely, with such a grand selection, you'll find something that appeals. A Thorn bicycle is the "perfect" bicycle for many of the Forum members here!
You are already doing the "other" important thing in making a selection -- asking others for their opinions. Among the Forum members, you'll find the entire Thorn range well-represented, and the helpful membership will no doubt weigh in with their own recommendations based on personal experience.
Now, you can help us help you by telling us a bit more about what you're seeking...
= What kind of riding will you do the majority of your use?
= Do you like to tour? If so, how big will your loads be, and how far/frequent your tours? Mostly on-road, or on tow paths, old railroad lines, into the rough-stuff, or truly off-road? Perhaps a mix of all these?
= Will you commute daily on your new bicycle?
= Are you a fast rider, or do you like to poke around and enjoy the scenery more than making distance at speed?
= What kind of bicycle do you own now, and how is it lacking? What features or capabilities do you wish it had?
All these things will help you better define your needs and help us help you with suggestions and ideas. Thorn make models from fast, lightweight randonneurs (the Audax) to traditional tourers (Club Tour), touring/camping bikes (Sherpa and Raven), and heavy expedition tourers (Nomad). There's a derailleur-based MTB in the lineup (Ripio), a tandem, even a triplet. There's choices between drop handlebars and some variety of straight handlebar, and there's two different drivetrains -- derailleurs or Rohloff internally-geared hubs -- with frames optimized for each of these.
A thumbnail sketch of the entire line is available here: http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornModelOverviewHiRes.pdf
At this point, I'd suggest downloading and reading each of the brochures, and also spending a little time looking at Thorn's setup guide to get an idea what positions are possible; a copy is available here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/models.html
Hopefully, something in the above will help you find what you're seeking.
Best,
Dan.
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The decision on which is the best bike depends a lot on how much weight you are wanting to carry, how heavy you are, what kind of roads, trails you want to ride on and how carefull you are as a cyclist.
Thorn make a good range of bikes from light and fast to heavy and bombproof.
There are lots of other makes of bikes out there which are very good but I thnk in terms of durability and comfort Thorn pretty much lead the way.
If you can let us know some more details I am sure there will be lots of advice from other members on what ould suit you best
Cheers
Andy
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As usual Dan you beat me to it with a much more articulate reply!!!
Cheers
Andy
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Good morning, Andy!
You did a fine job with fewer words than I!
All the best,
Dan.
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Well how far is long distance?
For Me it's 12,000 km's from top of Africa to the Bottom!
Here is the Best bike for Me to do this trip (that I started this year) with "Tour d'Afrique"
Just got to find some more money (save up again) to go back.
And it's the Best colour too!
Pete....
:P
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Hi George
I'm not sure the answer you need is about brand of bike, I think style of bike is more important.
If you are new to long distance cycling then my advice would be to get the most comfortable bike you can find. Mudguards are an essential for long distance comfort, and a means of carrying some luggage (tools, waterproof clothing, spare tubes, food, etc) is also very highly desirable.
Audax bikes, by definition, are designed with long distance in mind; touring bikes are also in this mould although they tend to be a little bit heavier in order to carry heavier loads. Either will take mudguards and racks.
Frame materials is also important in terms of long distance comfort, it is generally accepted that steel frames are very comfortable, but read one of the Thorn brochures under 'Steel is Real' for a fuller explanation. All Thorn frames are made of steel.
All Thorn models are available with flat or straight handlebars, you need to decide what style you prefer. Drops are generally preferable in that they provide more varied hand positions which reduces hand/arm fatigue, straight bars give better control over rough ground, and generally better braking with wider tyres. I would suggest making an appointment with Thorn to have them measure you up, and also to have a test ride on some of their models. Thorn would then build your preferred model to provide an ideal fit for you and your preferred style of riding. You then have 100 days to decide if that is the bike for you!
If you decide on some other brand of bike, I would still recommend some sort of 'bike fitting' as a useful investment prior to making a major purchase in bike terms for the first time. Bike fitting being sat on a frame jig in various positions then measuring precisely to match your preference. Then, depending on your budget you could opt for a full custom build designed to your precise personal dimensions/preferences, but for a smaller outlay you could also get an off the peg bike that would fit you very well.
Finally, try a Brooks leather saddle if you haven't tried one before, for many they are the ultimate in comfort for long distance cycling.
Have fun with your research, and let us know how you get on.
Regards.
Jim
P.S. Having said all that, you don't actually need an expensive bike to do long distance or touring, but you did ask about "best".
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As others have said a bit more info is required. Could you be a bit more precise by what you mean by "long distance". For some people this might mean 50 km for others its means 1000km plus.
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In the end however, after you decided on your style of riding, don't overcomplicate things too much as there's so many options it's dazzling! (bars, size, material, suspension forks, gears...)
I DO second the steel, aluminium either flexes like mad or it's way too harsh and too compensate you then need a suspension fork or seatpost and all other kind of add-ons that add to price and can break.
Keep it simple and stupid :D
Are there budget concerns? I've done a fair bit of e-bay hunting so I can give you some indications if you decide to go second hand.
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george over the years i guess i've ridden all kinds of bikes top end Steel/ TI/ and Carbon all fantastic bikes but for all day comfort it would be hard to beat the Thorn Sherpa, and a really good set of hanbuilt wheels and your away in a hack : ;)
but taste and try before you buy. have fun.
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George, rather than assuming that you're already a mad cyclist, just taking a step back, do you have a bike now, what sort, and how often do you ride it?
A Thorn is a good, economical choice of you're going to use it a lot and hard. It's an outright waste of money to buy an expensive bike and then discover you don't really like cycling all that much. Depending on your cycling experience, it might be smarter to buy a well-fitted but inexpensive mountain bike, even second hand, and go for a few rides, and service it, and think what you can do to improve it. That'll prepare you well to understand what we say, and when you're ready to make an informed choice among the variously purposed Thorns. At the very least it will give you a lifetime hatred of derailleurs, and make you more receptive to paying half the price of a good bike for its Rohloff gearbox!
Andre Jute
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Now now Andre, I changed from hub gears to a Thorn derailleur and very happy with it :P
However, for rocky and very muddy conditions or roads that are covered in salt/grit in winter, or very snow heavy or frost with damp hub gears will be the better choice if you want to avoid repairs.
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Heh-heh.
My down on derailleurs is not only because in the long term, which could arrive pretty soon for a long distance rider like George wants to become, they cost more than a hub gearbox. I also have in mind that unless you grew up with derailleurs (in short, unless you're Dutch or a practiced roadie), derailleurs have probably put more people off cycling than even the cold and wet and other discomforts. That makes cycling more expensive for the rest of us, because it denies us economies of scale in components. Couple of years ago on one day I went from the factory of a guy who does rectification for local PC makers to a motor factor and hence to an LBS. The prices of computer components are in pennies, the prices of automobile components are in single figures, the prices of bicycle components are obscene. And I blame the derailleur.
The way I see it, the first item in the specification of a longdistance bike is coccyx/lower back comfort (meaning a relatively upright riding position with North Road or ergo bars or drops no narrower than your shoulders if you insist on drops, and tyres 47mm or fatter, preferably low pressure, and one of the wider Brooks than the B17); and then a hub gearbox for longdistance reliability and endurance and transmission economy and for reducing fatigue on long days in the saddle and on difficult terrain. Everything else follows from posture comfort and transmission stress reduction.
Andre Jute
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I think that is a valid point about the derauiler putting people off cycling. The hub gearbox is certainly an easier and more intuative thing to use.
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hobbes is only saying that because he has the rohloff hub :P ;D ;D
nothing wrong with derauilers
(go easy on me now Andre) ;)
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See, Jags, you guys who grew up as roadies are conditioned to think of a "proper" bike as one having drop handlebars and derailleurs. The position is even worse in America, where the Peugeot 10-speed craze of the 1970s fixed a certain type of bicycle, a lowest common denominator of racing bike, in the cycling gestalt as the ne plus ultra, and created, among other deleterious effects, the entire mindset of commuters trying to race along as fast as cars, a game that could have only one loser; it damned bicycling in the States forever to being a minority niche -- even before you added the American tendency even in their hobbies and sports to adversarial politics which now vitriolically divides the "vehicular" from the "facilities" cyclists. But for people coming fresh to bicycling, derailleurs make no sense; they're an unnatural invention of the devil, one of the worst ways in which the cycling community's focus on racing distorts bicycles to be actively hostile to new riders. On any logical analysis derailleurs make no sense. Economically derailleurs make no sense. The only sense derailleurs make is that the bicycling establishment hangs on to them to the grim death, and that's self-referential, not a reasoned preference. Bicycling must be the only hobby where "efficiency" is a euphemism for both "irrational sentiment" and "wishful thinking" (ever notice how angry roadies become at the simple, straightforward question, "What are you training for?").
But I'm an outsider. I came to cycling only 1992 when I gave up the car for my health. For me the bicycle is a strictly engineering and ergonomic and aesthetic question, and I'm anyway a professional intellectual, worse, a critic, so I view the received wisdom of the cycling community with a severely jaundiced eye. So much of it is simply stupid, and perpetrated by manufacturers either for commercial reasons or under the wretched influence of the UCI, that a blunt British designer like Andy Blance can seem refreshing, even though he says nothing startling, nothing but the most straightforward logic of designing a bike outward from it's intended service.
Andre Jute
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On the other hand, when I decided to take up cycling in in my mid thirties, I found the simplicity and transparency of derailleur gearing almost refreshing compared to the 3 speed hubs that we used in my distant youth. And I have yet to wear out a derailleur cycling around 10,000 KM per year, although I recently needed to replace a part in my Centaur shifter. (Campag wears in rather than wearing out)
Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.
Cheers,
pj
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As you say, Peter, horses for courses. You might explain "the simplicity and transparency of derailleur gearing" though, let's say by comparison with a Rohloff gearbox where you turn a rotary control to give you sequential, equal gearing steps.
Andre Jute
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Ah, I do see the point of the derailleur == racer boy == racing in traffic == special clothing, helmet etc. (racer boys)
VS
hub gear == roadster == carrying food, passengers, work stuff == walking on bike == normal clothing. (cycling for all)
There's now commuters by Giant, Charge etc with Alfine hub gears they are finally returning in the UK.
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but andre deraileur or hub there both operated by a lenght of wire both work fine can't complain about that.i 've always used either campag or dura ace mechs never have either one let me down over thousants on miles of cycling a quick wash and lube and there as good as new,and they dont cost the earth to replace unlike a rohloff hub have to sell one of the kids to buy one. ;)
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A straight swap of a Rohloff HGB for one of your good-looking, well-mannered kids sounds like a good deal, Jags.
I'm not really talking about the cable connection. The people who are put off biking by derailleurs probably think electricity runs in that cable. The problem is that they're definitely put off by derailleurs, and those who aren't put off by derailleurs think cycling is more dangerous than it really is. Those two facts betwwen them absolutely bollox any and all cycling advocacy. If you then add government disinterest and incompetence...
Thanks for the giggle, Jawine. I love my helmet, which I wear with my everyday street clothes.
Andre jute
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A straight swap of a Rohloff HGB for one of your good-looking, well-mannered kids sounds like a good deal, Jags.
They're immensely talented and artistic, Andre...might have to toss in a Hebie Chainglider and a SON dynohub to seal the deal.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi again Andre,
By "simpilicity and transparency", I mean that you can see the whole shooting match and how it works. When I was a youngster (I'm a 1951 model) derailleur bikes were virtually unkown in my neck of the woods, so when I came back to cycling in the 1980's I was smitten by the way a derailleur system operates. It's all there to see, and it really is relatively simple, not a mysterious (to me, anyway) arrangement of cogs and pawls all meshing away inside a hub. I don't see having to operate 2 sets of controls for front and rear instead of just 1 rotary control as a problem, but I suppose it's second nature. Perhaps if I rode a hub geared bike for a month or two I'd notice the difference when I reverted to a derailleur version.
I still appreciate the simplicity of the thing and I have experienced very little trouble over the last 30 years. Very occasional adjustment is the extent of it but I have to concede it costs more these days to replace a casette than individual cogs. I think Jags is on the money: don't buy cheap stuff and you're set for a long and enjoyable relationship with your derailleurs.
As for the "racer boy" image alluded to by Jawine, I didn't spend much time down on the drops riding my Club Tour on LEJOG. And my Moulton TSR30 doesn't fit that image either.
Which is not to say that I would never by a hub geared bicycle at some future time, just that I think derailleurs still have a lot going for them.
Cheers,
pj
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Best bike for long distance is called a train !
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Best bike for long distance is called a train !
classic ;D ;D ;D
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Which is not to say that I would never by a hub geared bicycle at some future time, just that I think derailleurs still have a lot going for them.
I agree, Peter; I still have a fleet of bicycles happily using derailleurs -- and freewheels -- that are friction-shifted and date from the late 1970s through the 1980s. Their thick unramped, unpinned alu chainrings seemingly last forever, and I wouldn't think of converting them to greater modernity if they can be made to go on as they are.
Carrying it further, I believe modern-day indexed shifting has simplified derailleur use (shifting) to a point where it is about equal to a Rohloff for sheer ease...so long as we're talking rear shifting. The front shift still proves problematic for some (especially if friction-shifted), but on the whole, rear shifts are the same as on an IGH -- pause or ease momentarily (or don't, with modern mechs), yank the lever a click or two, and there you are; a nice, clean shift to the next gear. What a derailleur drivetrain cannot do is allow one to shift the entire range sequentially with a single control, or allow one direct access to the next higher or lower gear in the entire range without at least one double-shift. You have to watch out for the "naughty combinations" that result in cross-chaining and greatly increased friction and wear.
One area where derailleur drivetrains have slipped over time is in component lifespan. In current versions, the cheaper (steel) stuff can actually outlast the more expensive (alu) 'ringed versons. In the quest to make shifting ever easier and more convenient, to make chain pickup even faster when shifting under load, the teeth have been contoured to the point (sorry) where there is much less surface area. In an effort to increase gear range with crossover shifting layouts, more cogs have been added to the cassette, meaning the chains have also become narrower -- all while maintaining about the same number of usable gears, thanks to chainline issues.
What this has amounted to is faster drivetrain wear due to decreased contact surface area between meshing components. I'm a 1960 model rider, who thinks the apogee of derailleur drivetrains came with my half-step triple/7-speed cassettes and sort of trailed off from there -- at least, where component life is concerned. An interesting take on this issue of diminishing returns wrt more/narrower cogs/chains/'rings on derailleur drivetrains can be found in an article by Dan Towle at R&E Cycles in Seattle: http://www.rodbikes.com/articles/web_articles/retrogrouch.html Look especially at the subheads labeled "Durability" and "Increased Cost". It is on this point where high-end modern derailleur systems that see heavy use are nearing the economic breakover point to being as costly over time as high-end IGH drivetrains like the Rohloff. Taking Dan T's argument to its logical extension, a high-mileage rider could expect to buy a dozen chains and cogsets each year with a drivetrain running a 10-speed cassette; 9- or even 8-speeds are more economical to operate, but harder to find repacement parts for. The thrust of Dan T's argument is here:
Durability:
10-speed chains are very thin, as are the 10-speed cogs. This means that they don't last near as long as a thicker chain and cogs. In cases of heavy commuting or touring we've seen many customers who get about 700 to 800 miles out of their chain and cogs. For some of those customers, that's about 1 month of commuting. That's 12 chains and 12 cog sets per year. For a customer riding across the United States, that's 4 chains and 4 cog sets. When used on a tandem, the mileage decreases by about 30%. By contrast, these same customers would be getting 1,200 to 1,500 miles on a 9-speed chain and cog set. Does this mean that an 8-speed chain and cog set would be even more durable? Yes, but 8-speed shifters are not available anymore, so 9-speed shifters are the new durability choice.
Increased Cost:
A 9-speed chain sells for $30. A 9-speed cog set sells from $45 to $60. By contrast a 10-speed chain costs $70, and 10-speed cog sets are $100 and up. When you multiply the frequency of replacement by the cost of equipment, your maintenance costs are increased by 200%. A 200% increase in maintenance costs are not the direction that most of our commuting and loaded touring customers want to go. Some people have no problem with the increased costs or service. Rest assured we still build touring bikes with 10-speed shifting quite a bit. We just want to share why 9-speed shifters are standard on our touring bikes.
Interesting stuff, and a factor in my choosing a Rohloff for long-distance touring (and the fact that the expedition-grade Nomad Mk2 is only available mit Rohloff) going forward. It is simply going to have lower operating costs and longer component life in future, and these are huge features for me in a bicycle I expect to last for the next 20+ years of high-mileage use. It is...freeing to simply twist the dial shifter and go "up" or "down" to adjust effort or ease as desired. The Nomad is the first of my bikes never to have a gear chart, and I still catch myself looking back inside my right leg to check which gear I'm in, chuckling when reminded I don't have to! On the other hand, I still enjoy the fun and challenge of manual/friction shifting my now-vintage 5- and 6-cog derailleur bikes, just as I enjoy driving a car with a manual transmission -- there's a certain joy in accomplishment in employing the skills I've acquired and that adds to my riding pleasure rather than detracting from it. I'll keep my older derailleur bikes and drivetrains for as long as they last, but when they die?...Dunno what I'll do. At that point, the Rohloff-hubbed Nomad may become my only bike.
All the best,
Dan. (who loves bicycles, no matter the drivetrain...)
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when i
was much younger i dont believe i ever seen a hub geared bike except of course for the old black sit up and beg bikes high nelly ;) maybe i didn't look hard enough. but would i have bought one in my younger days emm i don't think so.
to me and all my roadie friends campag and dura ace were the order of the day still are to be honest.
unless i win the lottery (i live in hope or dreamland) i would never afford a rohloff. so to me the derailleur is the dog's regardless of cost or politics.
maybe i'm missing the whole point ;D ;D ;) but i would never use a hub like the rohloff on a top end road bike look a bit silly not very 8)
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OK, you get distracted as you approach a junction. With a D-R gear you are in the wrong gear to set off, with a hub you aren't. QED !
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i would never use a hub like the rohloff on a top end road bike
I agree, jags...I think der mechs will continue for a good long time on high-end road and road-racing bicycles. They have tradition behind them driving the process (and sunk and amortized costs) and there is yet more refinement to be made with electric servo-actuation, a la Shimano's Di2. There is also a weight advantage (however slight) to derailleurs, and bike balance is better with the drivetrain components distributed between front and rear. Cost-on-entry is less than a Rohloff as well, so even if maintenance costs proved to be higher, one can replace components one at a time as needed.
And, as Andre has mentioned, there are economies of scale that support the lower cost of derailleurs. He sees things a little differently than roadie-traditionalists like you and me, jags. His is a worthy and worthwhile perspective, and I readily admit he's right. The problem is, derailleurs did get established and adopted on a wide scale, and IGHs are having to claw their way back into the market against the relatively higher costs of production. One thing Andre did not address in his very well-written essay, but I think may be a factor...I think the costs of manufacture and assembly for a single IGH are likely higher than for any one derailleur-drivetrain component. Taken as a whole (triple crank, front and real mechs, freehub, cassette/cogset), they may be comparable, but people don't generally buy whole der drivetrains for maintenance...they repace individual components, and at present, those are fairly inexpensive because they are well-established in the manufacturing and supply chain.
Yep, I predict derailleurs will be around awhile on road bikes,though likely soon only in electro-servo-shifted versions on new bikes. I think the commuter and touring market will go more toward IGHs. Mountain bikes? Hmm. Could go either way.
Best,
Dan.
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Yep, I predict derailleurs will be around awhile on road bikes,though likely soon only in electro-servo-shifted versions on new bikes. I think the commuter and touring market will go more toward IGHs. Mountain bikes? Hmm. Could go either way.
I've been hearing about the touring and commuter market exploding (outside the traditional utility cycling countries) ever since I started cycling, over twenty years ago. It's nonsense, wishful thinking (I too wish it were true!), and it's not going to happen. For one thing, a third to a half of humanity cannot wait to give up the bicycle, which they regard as the mark of poverty, for a small car. That fact alone makes Dan right, because in the West the commuter and touring bike was always there, all the groundwork laid, waiting for someone to pick it up, and Trek and Cannondale tried valiantly, and where did they get?
Look around you (unless you live in The Netherlands or South East Asis). Who are into commuting and touring bikes? The middle classes, comfortable people riding on expensive bikes. It's a niche market still, after all these years. It has no street cred to drive up unit numbers and bring down prices. The cheapest decent touring bike you can buy is around the Dawes price bracket, still not a cheap bike, well reputed, probably very good value, and the others around there too; but none of those mass makers make only touring bikes. Even a small manufacturer like Thorn, famous for its (upmarket but good value) touring bikes, has other strings to its bow. Just with the information available in this forum, we can already deduce a very great deal about the size of the touring/commuting bike market — and its likely future.
I think Dan will be right for a long time to come, possibly a generation or two. It's such a waste, all those expensive "racing" bikes people buy because they're fashionable, ride a couple of times, find monstrously uncomfortable and difficult to operate, and then park in their garages forever. Carbon just makes it worse by driving up average prices, and thus the cost of waste. (Carbon bikes make an excellent example of fashion substituting for, and posing as, engineering knowledge, but that's a subject for another thread.)
Andre Jute
PS. I splashed coffee over my screen when I read your explanation of the "transparency of derailleurs", Peter. Thanks for the giggle.
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...a third to a half of humanity cannot wait to give up the bicycle, which they regard as the mark of poverty, for a small car.
Hear, hear! And heartily (but very, very sadly) agreed, Andre.
Here in 'Merka -- at best and by the majority in terms of actual use -- bicycles are widely regarded as expensive toys, many of which are ridden only on sidewalks at the peril of pedestrians.
And, we drive our cars to the gym for "spinning classes" to ride stationary bikes for fitness, then fight each other in traffic on the drive home again, having sweated indoors rather than out. The unattributed graphic attached below sums it up nicely...
Best,
Dan.
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Hobbes comment about bike choice made me think of this:
One thing I thought about while riding was if your bicycle was a car which one would it be? I got thinking about this when I passed someone riding a mountain bike (very slowly) along the road and thought its madness. It was the equivilent of riding a Landrover Defender (Thats a Jeep to you Dan) with Mud plugging tyres on the motorway. It then got me to thinking that carbon race bikes are probably akin to formula one cars.
Trying to think about it this way you get to see the lunacy of many bike choices.
I am keeping my address secret at this point to stop any other form members sending round the little white van.
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And, we drive our cars to the gym for "spinning classes" to ride stationary bikes for fitness, then fight each other in traffic on the drive home again, having sweated indoors rather than out.
(http://themetapicture.com/media/funny-gym-escalator-entrance.jpg)
;) ;D ::)
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Andy there were many a time in the last few years i was embarrased to be riding my top of the range carbon bike ,who was i trying to kid ;D the days of me going fast a well and truly gone but i'm not a sad bunny about it as a matter of fact i quiet enjoy going slow ,don't know what my bike's think about it though ;D ;D
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I am keeping my address secret at this point to stop any other form members sending round the little white van.
Andy...um, but they time the van rolls 'round your way, we'll all be *in* it! We do have to stop at Bridgwater along the way, however. There's a little shop there we all might enjoy. "And a grand time was had by all" will be the ride report on that one!
Ooh! I love the idea of the bike-to-car analog, and it is one I have often pondered as I rode along myself. No worries coming up with mine:
My bikes are all the equivalent of WRC rally cars. Oh, some are biased more toward RallyCross, and others like the rando bike are akin to the Super1600 class. Something that handles a mix of pavement and dirt, anyway and will go anywhere. Still looking for that "Gruppe B"-equivalent bicycle...hmm. Maybe a Mercury?
Andy there were many a time in the last few years i was embarrased to be riding my top of the range carbon bike ,who was i trying to kid...the days of me going fast a well and truly gone but i'm not a sad bunny about it as a matter of fact i quiet enjoy going slow ,don't know what my bike's think about it though
No bad rides, jags, either fast or slow! So long as you get out on the bike, its all good no matter the speed. Also, it really helps to shake it up a bit with some variety. Your Look was so different from the Sherpa, and I get the impression it was almost like riding a new bike all over again when you switched between them. The old saying with cars (proven true in my experience) is it's more satisfying to drive a slow car fast than a fast car slow in traffic. Not too different with bikes, though you can still enjoy the light, lively feel of a racing bike at any speed -- even just tootling around.
All the best,
Dan. (who -- if he wins the Lottery [hard, 'cos he doesn't play] -- will build a backyard racetrack with shifter-carts and pretend he's Michael Schumacher on his way to an F-1 career)
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when i
was much younger i don't believe i ever seen a hub geared bike except of course for the old black sit up and beg bikes high Nelly ;) maybe i didn't look hard enough. but would i have bought one in my younger days emm i don't think so.
to me and all my roadie friends campag and dura ace were the order of the day still are to be honest.
unless i win the lottery (i live in hope or dreamland) i would never afford a rohloff. so to me the derailleur is the dog's regardless of cost or politics.
maybe I'm missing the whole point ;D ;D ;) but i would never use a hub like the rohloff on a top end road bike look a bit silly not very 8)
I just have to say that you are missing the point!
With Derailleur gear changing is too slow? (over half a turn of your crank's to change gear)??
With a Rohloff Speedhub it's 100th of a second to change gear!
Offroad in Mud (yes I know they do not ride in the Mud in the USA) :P derailleur gear change do not work BUT a Rohloff will work all day long! in mud, sand or out on the road!
I do know I have got my 2nd Rohloff hub I sold my 1st Rohloff hub off for more then my New one cost! Why did I sell off My 1st Rohloff Hub? because It was a Nutted axle one.
I did ride in Africa with Derailleur's (2000km's in 16 day's) when I get to go back it will be with a Rohloff Hub.
Pete............
;)
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i know pete but i'll just have to grin and bare with it until i can afford the new kid on the block rohloff. ;)
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All Good, yes Rohloff's do cost more up front but cost less in the long run.
In New Zealand cycle shop's keep talking People that Rohloff Hub's cost $1000 to $2000 more then the true cost! this is why I Sold my 1st Hub off for more then a new one cost ;D
Pete.......
::)
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True words Pete,
in the UK too there is a myth that they cost £1000 ::) More like £700 if you know where to look and keep an eye on the exchange rates ;)
Cheers
Ian
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would be worth buying a bike from rosebikes with rohloff obviously ;D ;D
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Hi All!
Judging by the closing prices over the last year, eBay Germany has some remarkable buys in used Rohloff hubs and even entire drivetrains. Lots of bling parts, too, like titanium or colored/anodized bolt sets and various "tuner" grips and shifter sleeves.
There are also a surprising number of good buys in whole Rohloff bikes; buy one, swap the drivetrain to a Thorn frame, and then sell-on the rest to help fund the project. A well-used and nicely maintained Winora Labrador Trekkingrad (touring bike) with Rohloff and Magura brakes recently closed at €622 (equivalent to £502 at current exchange rates). This might make it possible to own a Rohloff Thorn a bit more easily via a frame swap, though eBay.co.uk has some great buys on complete bikes -- often from SJS Cycles.
From what I can see by the descriptions, a lot of even really nice German touring/trekking bikes are being sold on to fund the purchase of e-bike/pedelec replacements. 'Lectrics trump Rohloffs, apparently (the motor-assist gives variable boost-on-demand, neatly splitting the Rohloff gearing and making the wider selection of gears surplus to a degree). The exodus to 'lectric is driving the market prices down. My prediction: This is the future.
Might be worth a look...
Best,
Dan. ("Roll-on with a Rohloff" or "Get Derailed"; I like both!)
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The exodus to 'lectric is driving the market prices down. My prediction: This is the future.
A neighbor up the street just bought his second electric bike. I think his wife got the hand-me-down! He commutes on it, so it makes sense for him to get a good one. The first was practically scrap but he got it to work decently enough. He let me take the new bike out on a test ride. Grand fun! And very practical here, apart from the winter months anyway. The hills here are unavoidable and even the small ones will challenge most folks. The electric boost makes bikes work for a huge fraction of the population!
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The electric boost makes bikes work for a huge fraction of the population!
The large-scale electrification of bicycles is coming, Jim, for all the reasons your neighbor chose one. I think pedelecs may be the one thing that gets middle-America actually riding bicycles more. Pedelecs have taken The Netherlands by storm, and are the one segment of the industry that actually showed growth in an otherwise disastrous year in Europe in general and NL in particular.
My bold prediction (and not for the first time!): In five years' time, it will be hard to buy a mass-market bicycle that does not have electric assist, and the price of new and used "manual" bikes will fall dramatically as they become yesterday's news.
"Manual" (non-assisted) bikes will be the province of roadies and fitness buffs, and even those will have electrically-aided shifting (think: Di2).
I'm guessing premier touring bikes will also have some sort of electric assist eventually, but it is the commuter market that is poised to explode, and that's happening even now in Europe. Coming soon to the American bike shop near you.
Best,
Dan. (...thinking it won't be long till he needs to create an e-bike child board on the Forum)
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Dan. (...thinking it won't be long till he needs to create an e-bike child board on the Forum)
Apply here with any questions about electric bikes.
Electric touring setups are already available in the premium market, with under-pannier twin battery holders. See for instance http://www.utopia-velo.de/relaunch/news_mehr.a4d?seq=1039 where the third pic from the top in the righthand column gives you a good view of how the batteries and panniers share the space either side of the wheel. With 28.2Ah, unless you're storming up an Alp that goes on forever, I reckon you could stretch to a good day's touring. I have 8.8Ah in my bottle battery, and it's probably good for at least 40km of assistive use, so a real tourer would probably have no problem reaching 160km/100m per day in rolling hills, more if a substantial part of the day's ride is flat, less, as I say, if it is an Alp.
Andre "Rider on the Edge" Jute
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec1.html
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would be worth buying a bike from rosebikes with rohloff obviously ;D ;D
If you're just stripping off the good parts, and don't care if the frame is generic Taiwanese aluminium, German Ebay in the winter is your friend, because surplus stock is sold off cheap, and you can buy bargains in used Rohloff wheels. -- Andre Jute
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Perhaps we'll end up with electric assist twentyniner fixies with regeneratave braking the week after next.....
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Well I may have to look up eBay Germany and buy a few Rohloff Hub/Bicycles and Sell them off in New Zealand ???
I may have a way to make some money (and safe) for My next Cycle Tour 8)
Thanks for the Head's up on making some cash :-*
Pete.................... ................... ....
:P
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Pedelecs used to be for old people in The Netherlands, what is happening to today's youth ;D
I detest hill cycling, and the grannie ring, but I detest having electronics on my bike even more. Grumpy old woman! ;D
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Pedelecs used to be for old people in The Netherlands, what is happening to today's youth ;D
I detest hill cycling, and the grannie ring, but I detest having electronics on my bike even more. Grumpy old woman! ;D
don't knock it just yet your still a young dude ;D ;D
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I detest hill cycling, and the grannie ring, but I detest having electronics on my bike even more. Grumpy old woman! ;D
I see the age progression as:
subteens BMX>teens MTB>twenties roadracing>thirties comfort bike (derailleur)>forties hub gears (Shimano 8 and 11)>fifties Rohloff (for the extra low gears>later sixties electric assist>seventies more electric assist>nineties electric wheelchair
Andre Jute
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A dude? Dudette maybe ;D
I am doing it wrong... up to twenties: Dutch Roadster > thirties: Thorn XTC with 27 gears and a 42/16 Fixie! ;D
Still have a crappy roadster for the beater bike, and carrying the wee man around.
Bah those things ain't worth anything anymore, bar a Pashley and some Dutch models those crappy lighter rims and put-on pannier racks completely defeat the purpose of being able to transport other passengers, beer, kids etc.
###Getting old!
Hubgears are great though from practical POV but only ever had 3 speed ones, so no idea how an 11 one compares to a derailleur bike.
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Ah HAh so the rohloff is for old dudes the truth at long last ;D ;D ;D
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I see the age progression as:.....
My age progression went: sub-teens: single speed> teens: single speed> twenties: road bike & touring bike> thirties: touring bike> forties: MTB> fifties> Audax road bike (same as the twenties) & expedition Rohloff tourer. Now for the future sixties? Who knows? Maybe velomobile at some stage.
You can stick your comfort bike where the sun don't shine :P
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Ah HAh so the rohloff is for old dudes the truth at long last ;D ;D ;D
With age comes wisdom (and a bit more moolah)
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Ah HAh so the rohloff is for old dudes the truth at long last ;D ;D ;D
Heh-heh.
Actually it wasn't age that made buy a Rohloff, it was moving up a particularly steep hill and needing gears below what my Shimano 8 speed hub gears could provide. When I grew old, I was glad to have the Rohloff, because it meant I could still go the same old places, only a bit slower.
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Only pulling your leg Andre if i had the dosh i would be riding probably a raven tour with rohloff ::)
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Ah HAh so the rohloff is for old dudes the truth at long last ;D ;D ;D
We are the only blokes who can afford them!
Mike (1942 model)
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Only pulling your leg Andre if i had the dosh i would be riding probably a raven tour with rohloff ::)
What about a Nomad? Too heavy? Or too much dosh?
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What about a Nomad? Too heavy?
My Nomad's working fine for 200km day rides with that includes substantial work on logging roads and singletrack. Plan to take it farther as soon as I change the handlebars to shallower drop for more road work. Heavy? Yes, but once up to speed, it is a juggernaut.
Best,
Dan.