Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Topic started by: jags on June 23, 2012, 06:53:42 PM
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i can't afford a new front wheel with the son dynamo just yet, so was thinking of gethttp://www.sjscycles.co.uk/busch-and-muller-dymotec-6-sidewall-bottle-dynamo-prod1061/ting this , so what head light should i get with it and is it going to be as strong as the son28..
sorry for all the stupid questions but hey its jags here ;D ;D
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Hi jags!
No stupid questions here except the ones left unasked, so you're okay, Bud.
As for the bottle generator, I think you'll be fine. It will have more drag than the SON when it is running, but none at all when it isn't, so you won't notice any difference compared to your current setup in daylight.
Pair this thing with a B&M IQ Cyo R headlight and a Toplight Line Plus taillight, and you'll be set for seeing and being seen at night. Actually, pairing it with nearly any LED headlight will give you worlds better light than the earlier halogen or krypton gas-filled tungsten incandescent bulbs ever provided. This bottle generator should have no trouble lighting an LED headlight and taillight.
If you're looking to power and charge gadgets, there are better choices (like the dynohub), not so much from a standpoint of sheer power, but drag. It's not bad-bad, but bottle generators will have you working harder. I ran one of the old Union 9814 models for years back in the late 1970s and early '8os when dinosaurs roamed the earth, and I'm still here. Now, that was something. It felt like I hit a wall when it cranked against the tire. Think of it as a training regimen. ;) Kidding aside, this bottle generator has worlds less drag than what I had in the Olden Days; you'll be fine.
Looking at the description, I see you'll need the "right-handed" model to fit the bracket on your Sherpa's fork (if I understand SJSC's definition of handedness in this case; best to check with them when ordering). It also comes without a bracket, so you'll need one that fits your fork's braze-ons. One of these would do, and SJSC could readily advise you which is best:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-stainless-steel-sliding-dynamo-boss-for-thorn-forks-with-boss-type-2-l-shape-prod7051/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-stainless-steel-sliding-dynamo-boss-for-thorn-forks-with-boss-type-1-t-shape-prod4672/
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-stainless-steel-sliding-dynamo-boss-for-thorn-forks-with-boss-type-3-l-shape-x-long-prod19581/
Going this route makes a lot of sense, jags, and you'll still have the headlight and taillight for later if you wish to go with a dynohub of some sort.
One thing I always did with a bottle generator was make a little fender or mudguard to shield the spray from the roller when riding in wet weather. They're easy to make out of sheet aluminum, and some makers have them in plastic as well. Lots of shops seem to have something of the sort kicking around in their parts bins. They're really only needed if you consistently have dark, rainy, nighttime commutes as I did for many years. For regular use, you'd be fine with just the plain bottle gen.
Hope this helps. If you have more questions, give a shout.
Best,
Dan.
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The Axa Nano Plus light is definitely worth considering, details on http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=4121.msg19770#msg19770
I haven't been able to test it's actual lighting capabilties yet as it hasn't been dark enough at this time of year but I used it in Ireland on holiday recently and it performed well for charging phone etc through it's built in usb port. Roughly I could charge my motorola defy phone at a rate of about 20% per 10 miles, so 40 miles would put an 80% charge into the phone. I will update my review on the other thread shortly.
I did have the light on on a really wet and dull day on a busy road, and could feel a slight resistance from it but not too bad, more noticeable when freewheeling really. I couldn't feel any resistance when the light was off and the usb port was charging the phone.
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excellent Dan thanks a million.
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thanks lads ;)
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http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/busch-and-muller-lumotec-iq-cyo-r-plus-40-lux-headlight-with-bracket-prod22818/
is this the correct one DAN.
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http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/busch-and-muller-lumotec-iq-cyo-r-plus-40-lux-headlight-with-bracket-prod22818/
is this the correct one DAN.
Dan will make his own reply.
I own both the original, first series BUMM IQ Cyo lamps, the 60 lux "racer" version without a reflector, and the 40 lux version with the reflector, and of the two I much prefer the reflector version. For practical purposes, both have tremendous reach and are suitable for fast riding on pitch-black roads but the 40 lux version has more sidespill close to the bike than the 60 lux version, which is extremely useful for positioning the bike on unlit roads and lanes where you want to see the ditch, and even on the darker streets where you need to see the pavement edge, and the car door opening into your path before you hit it.
The BUMM IQ Fly has the same optics as the Cyo and is a spot less expensive. All models Fly have a reflector, and the standoff mount is built in.
Now it gets complicated. There is a second series of BUMM IQ lamps, in which BUMM buggered around with the optics, and buggered them up. I have the IQ Fly from the second series, again the same optics as the second series Cyo. It has a distinct and seriously disturbing hotspot and BUMM has given you nothing in return, certainly not a wider throw of light.
I would therefore advise you to see if you can get a new old stock (NOS) first series Cyo R (the official name of the 40 lux reflector model). It is useful to have the Plus, which has a built-in capacitor for a very reassuring standlight. Or, less expensive, a first series Fly. In each lamp there's a special, switchless version for sidewall dynamos, in theory cheaper but probably not discounted as it is rarer, so you may as well buy whatever is cheapest, including the nominally most expensive model, the Senso Plus, and just switch out the facilities you don't use until you get a dynamo wheel.
You can see the Cyo/Fly 40 lux light pattern at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGbuildingpedelec6.html You will see the hotspot in the photographs and how narrow the throw is in the lanes. Also how little sidespill there is from the lamp with the MOST sidespill... Notice how in the photograph with striped speed bump the fence the road worker put up, literally inches from the edge of the light, is not lit.
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The Cyo in its day, despite these shortcoming, was the best lamp you could buy. That is not necessarily true after they bolloxed the optics. If you can't find an NOS first series Cyo, I would advise you to pay serious attention to the Philips SafeRide, which is commonly considered a better lamp than the current series IQ Fly/Cyo. The problem with the Philips is that it is outrageously expensive. But perhaps you can find one discounted on the net.
Some beamshots here but be sure you're looking at the lamp you're buying, not a different lamp of the same name... http://www.fietsersbond.nl/de-fiets/onderdelen/verlichting/krachtige-koplampen-test-2011/philips-saferide-led-dynamoversie Of the SafeRide the tester concludes "Verreweg de beste lamp om onder alle omstandigheden mee the fietsen." -- "By far the best lamp to cycle with under all circumstances." From the beamshots, i particularly like the amount of sidespill -- you could ride offroad on a single goat track with this lamp, and not come a cropper, as you're sure to with the Cyo/Fly narrow/far paradigm. Also beamshots of the Axa Nano, recommended further up this thread for its USB port; I don't find its beam all that impressive in this company.
Andre Jute
PS If you're buying a Cyo, order the best light bracket in the business, B&M's 471LH, at the same time to save carriage. This is an unbreakable nylon bracket (not "plastic" as SJS has it!), taller than normal so the light shines even over fat tyres from 47mm up without any dead spots.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/b-and-m-light-bracket-in-plastic-long-471lh-prod22450/ Standard equipment on Utopia, to whose specification it was designed. This bracket damps vibration most effectively and has channeled wire routing.
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..... Also beamshots of the Axa Nano, recommended further up this thread for its USB port; I don't find its beam all that impressive in this company.
Andre Jute
I think those beamshots for the Nano are for the older 40 lux version, the newer version is 50 lux.
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Andre,it's unbelievable how much knowledge yourself and Dan has on all things bikes.
thanks indeed for your advice ,i'm in no big hurry to buy but i do like to know what works ,i hate buying stuff thats labelled as the bees knees only to find its crap .
i'll hunt around for the older model maybe sjs has one hidden away ;)
anyway thanks again .
jags
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An excellent selection of comparable beam-shots for several models of dynamo headlights can be found at Peter White Cycles (http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/headlights.asp)
This is the B&M IQ Cyo R
(http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/B&MCYORweb1.jpg)
I'd actually prefer the Supernova E3 Pro Asymmetrical (asymmetrical refers to it having a beam horizon, so doesn't dazzle oncoming drivers/riders)
(http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/supernovaasym2-600.jpg)
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Hi jags!
Sorry I missed your query; I was out walking five miles along the river, getting soaked to the skin in the heavy rain and loving every moment of it. The Canada Goose babies are now past the cute stage of development and stuck at Ugly, but are lovable nonetheless. The neighbor's pleasant wolf-hybrid puppy gave a lusty howl and pressed against the fence of his dog-run as I walked by, and I could count the salmon swimming in the clear, green water around the footings of the Owosso Bike Bridge. I've outsourced maintenance of my 25-geocache trapline, and they're coming along nicely for the new owner. A good day to check on the ripening wild blackberries. There should be a good crop come August, and that will make for some tasty "soppy" -- berry juice and pulp strained through cheesecloth, then frozen. Nothing better over waffles and ice cream during the dark days of winter, especially if warmed in the microwave before pouring. Add a little chocolate syrup to the mix and you're in heaven. It is also very nice added to a cup of hot cocoa or coffee if so inclined, and some teas as well.
As for headlight recommendations, Andre has done a wonderful job making a case for the older IQ Cyo R Senso Plus if you can find one. To my great dismay, I got one of the later models, whose previously perfect beam has been spoiled by an unfortunate "hot-spot" that draws the eye to center. Having ridden next to my Dutch friend's early IQ Fly through The Netherlands' Green Heart and the length of the Hoge Veluwe well past park curfew, I thought mine would look the same, but no. Some idiot at B&M diddled the reflector, just as Andre said.
Still, it is a very decent light. Abnormally white and very bright, the perfect warning device for facing oncoming traffic when cranked upward a smidge, and the nighttime light isn't as objectively bad as it sounds unless you've seen the earlier model and lusted after same. If you've had any experience with the earlier model, your heart won't rest easy till that wonderful beam pattern is recaptured in some way. In slight compensation, I'm given to understand the newer models with the horrid 5-facet reflectors (mine) have more reliable electronics. Early Cyos failed with alarming regularity given their cost.
If you would someday like to go for a dynohub, then I suggest you go for the light with all the bells and whistles -- again, as Andre also mentioned -- even if you don't use them all now with the bottle dynamo. This means the reflector (standard with the "R" model as is the "nearfield" beam), the 3-way switch -- On/Senso/Off, where a small photocell switches the light on automatically when light levels drop, and of course the Plus designation (also standard for this light), that uses a capacitor to keep the light burning at a reduced level for about 4.5 minutes after stopping. Nice when stopped at intersections and for fiddling with your keys at the shed door. Just avoid the model with the daytime-running-lights. It has not tested well and the one example I saw was awful in operation both day and night.
Differing from Andre, I found the included heavy-gauge stainless wire mount to be excellent for Sherpa, provided I used a spacer to clear the lower cup of the FSA Orbit XL headset. I also bought the nylon mount and found it would have been perfect for a Nomad's rounded crown face, but not for Sherpa's flat one.
Pete's photos (referenced from Peter White's site) do an excellent job showing the beam pattern of the light. The only caution I would add is to note (exposure aside) they are taken on a gravel road, which makes the beams appear brighter than on most pavement. In my experience so far, the effective brilliance of my IQ Cyo R Senso Plus depends greatly on the road surface. It shows up most brightly on gravel and grass, less so on aged concrete, and much, much less than shown in the photo when lighting wet blacktop/chipseal/asphalt. To be fair, this is a criticism of all vehicular lighting and includes automobiles (and my favorite kind of lighting, that intended for ProRally and WRC use, which is now almost exclusively based on HID systems).
Good observation from Pete: An asymmetrical beam includes a horizontal cutoff to prevent blinding oncoming drivers. My version of the IQ Cyo has this as well, but not all bike lights do. Excellent choices and suggestions, all.
Best,
Dan.
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I think those beamshots for the Nano are for the older 40 lux version, the newer version is 50 lux.
Yeah, that's why I mentioned being sure you're looking at the lamp you're buying, not some other lamp under the same name. Manufacturers would do us all a favour by labelling their goods more clearly, as in "Model III, 2012". -- AJ
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One thing I always did with a bottle generator was make a little fender or mudguard to shield the spray from the roller when riding in wet weather. They're easy to make out of sheet aluminum, and some makers have them in plastic as well. Lots of shops seem to have something of the sort kicking around in their parts bins. They're really only needed if you consistently have dark, rainy, nighttime commutes as I did for many years. For regular use, you'd be fine with just the plain bottle gen.
Getting back to dynamos briefly, I hated the bottle dynamo I tried out because of the spray blowing back to hit me in the face. jags, given the climate in your part of the world, I think you would most definitely need a mudguard/shield as described by Dan if you were to go the bottle route.
Keep on saving up for the hub dynamo. ;)
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Dymotec 6 is around ?50 from SJSC, you can get a wheel with shimano dynohub for not much more than that from some of the German shops, e.g. rose have one for 80 euros including postage. Not sure what wheel size you need though, that one is a 700c wheel.
Alternatively the Dymotec 6 is available for half the sjsc price from Germany.
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thanks again lads to be honest i would be more than happy with any of those lights shown.
i now might just pop over to rose bikes and have a look at those shimano hubs on the 700c wheel stick that on my raleigh..
last things lads honest how do you go about making a mudguard for the dynamo i'm totally confused on this one ::) ;D pic's please.
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I've seen such a thing on old dynamos from the 50s and earlier. A cover that goes over the roller. Most people don't bother.
I had a spray-guard over my Sanyo Dynapower BB roller-dynamo, that I've mounted at the brake-stay. Still have the guard, made it out of some plastic from the side of a milk bottle, a bit like a mud-flap. That was a special situation with spray coming through a hole cut into the mudguard.
[edit] Here's a picture of one
(http://images.cloud.worthpoint.com/wpimages/images/images1/1/0509/10/1_79b34134fba2b45a32aa8903d8da7a20.jpg)
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cant see that photi buddy ;)
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just checking prices on rosebikes
b+m iq cyo r 69euro
b+m dynamo dymotec 6=28.99 euro
top light 21 euro
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cant see that photi buddy ;)
Try this one then
(http://i21.ebayimg.com/07/i/001/49/f9/4d62_35.JPG)
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just checking prices on rosebikes
b+m iq cyo r 69euro
b+m dynamo dymotec 6=28.99 euro
top light 21 euro
There's a Shimano dynohub 3N20 bolt-up axle on Rose Versand for 19 Euro - here (http://www.roseversand.com/article/shimano-hub-dynamo-dh-3n20/aid:355676)
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thanks for that wow that dynamo is very cheep :-\
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would this fit my raleigh 700c ;)
http://www.roseversand.com/article/atb-front-wheel-28700-c-dh-3n80---a-719/aid:484624
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would this fit my raleigh 700c
Good morning, jags!
Yes, it looks to me as if it would fit without problem. See...
http://www.roseversand.com/article/atb-wheel-set-28700-c-dh-3n80deore-xt-780---a719/aid:484612
...for more complete specs on the entire wheelset (the link you gave us was just for the bare front wheel, of course; more info at the link above). I see they mention a 10-year guarantee against spoke breakage.
You might possibly have to open your front brakes a little, depending on the rim you're currently running. I've seen pics of that Raleigh, and it is surely beautiful. Be nice to have lights on it when you wished. If you kept the original wheel and fitted the headlight with a quick-release or wing-nut, you could swap wheels and remove the light when you wanted to go um, "light". :D
Best,
Dan.
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great stuff thanks Dan seems like a good place to shop great prices.
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bike-discount.de (http://www.bike-discount.de/shop/k992/dynamo-operated.html) also have lots of good stuff at great prices, i got my Axa Nano Plus light from them.
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Further to the spec of a suitable light for a modern cyclist:
Dan has already mentioned that the BUMM Cyo with the Daylight Running Lights is a model you want to stay away from.
In addition, the BUMM Senso facility, which switches the lamp on automatically when darkness falls and off again at dawn, is a nice gimmick but irrelevant to modern lamps driven by either a hub or a sidewall dynamo. With the MTBF of modern LEDs now reaching for 50K hours, there is absolutely no reason not to keep the lights on through the day as well. So an on-off switch, and a light/movement sensor, are both surplus to requirements. The only facilities, beyond throwing light correctly, that are really wanted on a modern lamp on a touring bike is the stand light feature (Plus in BUMM-speak) and the ability to output current to charge USB devices.
Of course, if the most deeply discounted and thus cheapest version of an otherwise desirable lamp has the on/off switch and the Senso (BUMM-speak again!), then you just take them and say thanks and don't use them because the lamp is on permanently day and night.
Andre Jute
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Shimano's 3N20 hub dynamo is perfectly adequate for most service; it has served on hundreds of thousands, possibly millions, of commuter bikes. All that you get extra on the much more expensive 3N80 hub dynamo is Ultegra-level seals. If you don't use disc brakes, you quite needlessly pay extra for that as well on the 3N80. Forget about rebuilding the hub dynamo, or even servicing it. Its service life is 40K kilometres and then you just chuck it. I've never actually seen the service kit advertised but I imagine it will be about the same price as a new dynamo hub costs at the discounters.
A SON hub dynamo might last three times as long but costs substantially more than three times as much.
The Shimano 3N20 has more off-service drag than a SON, but with modern lamps you'll leave the lamps on all the time anyway, and when it is on and driving the lamp, the 3N20 has *less* drag than it has off service!
The Shimano 3N80 for a third or less of the price of a SON, only has more drag to obsessives splitting hairs.
I have both the SON and variants of the best Shimano on similar bikes, and an AXA sidewall generator too for that matter, fitted by Gazelle in a crazy weight weenie moment to save a few grammes off a luxurious vacation bike with every other possible trimming imaginable (a fruit and nut episode!).
A SON gives you great bragging rights, but I took the one I have because it was a standard fitment already included in the price of the bike, a "delete option"; were I given the choice, I would have chosen the Shimano hub dynamo because I'd had good experience of it.
Most of my riding at night in town, which is the most critical nighttime riding I do, is under 15kph, from speed bump to speed bump, and in those conditions the Shimano comes up to current faster than the SON. It's marginal (see what I said about hairsplitters, and the capacitors in the most modern LED lights are pretty good at filling in the lucanae), but this is about my life, not bragging rights.
There is just no rational basis at all for seeing the Shimano as inferior to the SON. The knee-jerk reflex preference for the SON in the elite cycling community is another example of cycling "efficiency" running wild and producing zero greater speed or comfort at several times the cost of the rational choice. It's snobbery, pure and simple.
Except if you're a genuine world tourer, or you commute 10k miles every year, the SON is the choice of a fashion victim, and very likely a waste of money. Even the Shimano 3N80 needs its claim on your money closely evaluated while the 3N20 is available for €19 (as reported further up this thread)!
A tip: German Ebay (ebay.de) makes it easy to buy these dynamo hubs built into rims, usually good-quality computer-built surplus wheels from manufacturers. Always make sure you get the fitting kit if one is required. The reason for looking at built wheels is that the cost with the better Shimano dynamo hubs is generally not very far above the cost of a built wheel with the cheaper hub, so you may as well have the best Shimano, necessary or not.
Andre Jute
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ok lads i have eventually decided on the wheel build from SPA cycles
Rim EXAL XR2 36 hole
SAPIN SPOKES
SON CLASSIK dynamo hub silver.
price £188
headlight BUSH @MULLER
LUMOTEC CYO R.
now question will there be cable and connectors supplied with that lot or are they extra.
and if i go for the tail light any ideas (pic@s) asto how i run cable and fit light remember this is going on my raleigh road bike no rear rack ,i still hace to buy mudguards .
any idea thanks all..
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Jags,
The Cyo R should should come with a basic zip-type two-wire conductor for the headlight, and a similar lead for the taillight (mine did, anyway). This wiring has proven serviceable for my needs, but if you wished, you could substitute the Schmidt coaxial wire, which is much larger in diameter and more robust. I am comfortable with what was supplied with the Cyo.
You will, however, probably need some 4.8mm slide-on spade connectors to connect the light to the SON hub. I did. Complete wiring instructions are here:
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wiringinstructions.asp Be sure to put the hub's wire connectors on the right side of the bike. If they go on the left, after awhile it is possible for the hub to unscrew (!) which is Not Good.
Get the connectors, slide them on, crimp them shut, and you should be good. I took the extra step of tinning the wires and soldering them and then making sleeves of heat-shrink tubing for them, but it is not necessary.
As for routing the wires, I had good luck on Sherpa. See the first page of my gallery photos, here: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.0 It is just one way to do it, there are many others that work just as well.
Best,
Dan.
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Thanks Dan great help you sure done a gret job routing those wires.
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Dan't got it covered. The good thing about a sleeve of heat shrink, even two layers, is that it gives you something to grip when you have to unplug the dynamo because you need to remove the wheel. -- Andre Jute
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Andre,
What I wish for is a molded plastic connector, a la Shimano's dynohub connector. It would make wheel changes so much easier for the SON *if* it could accommodate the double wiring I have for the charging system as well as lighting.
As it stands, I am using 4.8mm piggyback connectors. With those, the piggyback connectors go on the SON tabs, and the other leads go on the subsidiary tabs. The mass can be a bit hard to remove.
I did forget to stress the importance of using a silicone high-dialectric grease on the connectors. Without, it can be a real struggle to get the connectors off the SON tabs. With...a breeze, and the electrical connections are protected from water and corrosion.
Best,
Dan.
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Heat-shrink over the connectors* then mold a body out of Sugru.
(http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3384/5726058371_c46072da68.jpg)
http://middleagecyclist.blogspot.com.au/2011/05/pedal-power.html
* you must isolate the connectors to eliminate any chance of short circuit. SON warn that there can be quite high voltage at this point.
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Heat-shrink over the connectors* then mold a body out of Sugru.
And a very nice-looking result indeed, Pete! I've seen this at Middle Age Cyclist's but wondered how securely the Sugru would bond to the connectors. I pondered using something like JB Weld (my favorite etching polyamide/polyamine epoxy resin) first to ensure the connectors were bonded, then going the Sugru route. you must isolate the connectors to eliminate any chance of short circuit. SON warn that there can be quite high voltage at this point.
Yes. The voltage can be quite high indeed. The effect is similar to touching an electric fence if your wet fingers happen to ground across the SON poles while spinning the wheel very fast to see if it really happens. :o It does. ::)
As a kid, I used to test 9-volt batteries by touching the two poles to my tongue. Worked. :P
Best,
Dan.
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And a very nice-looking result indeed, Pete!
Yes, a lot nicer than my slightly-bodged fix - the light lead and E-werk lead combined at the connector onto just the two connectors. But it works well.
(http://inlinethumb37.webshots.com/46756/2356502930074746151S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2356502930074746151ULYeRa)
I've since found out about those piggy-back lead connectors (http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/schmidt-cable-connector-non-insulated-48-mm-female-with-piggyback-connector-pack-of-2-prod28876/) you're using Dan, that are available for this situation. A better solution as it allows you to disconnect the E-werk more easily should you wish to.
(http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/images/products/medium/schmidt-cable-connector-non-insulated-48-mm-female-with-piggyback-connector-pack-of-2-IMG28876.jpg)
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Andre,
What I wish for is a molded plastic connector, a la Shimano's dynohub connector. It would make wheel changes so much easier for the SON *if* it could accommodate the double wiring I have for the charging system as well as lighting.
I use something like this:
(http://bmsbattery.com/439-732-large/9pin-waterproof-cable-female-connector-for-motor.jpg)
Available from here (but be very careful ordering, or you could be stuck for major carriage costs, possibly import/dumping charges, and sales taxes -- VAT -- on the total value including the carriage):
http://www.bmsbattery.com/accessory/439-9pin-waterproof-cable-female-connector-for-motor.html
Seen, with apologies for the photo not being very clear, in my application at:
(http://coolmainpress.com/miscimage/pedelec/201_son_to_8fun.jpg)
In which you should note, bottom centre of the photo, that the cable is arranged to enter upwards into the hub below the nut, and to loop downwards before curving back up along the fork. This is by its nature not a very neat installation but it is guaranteed not to conduct water into your hub along the cabling. The cable is permanently attached to the hub, and the waterproof junction you break to take the wheel off is 6-8 inches along the fork, held on above the connector by a tie wrap, and on the lower part by nothing because the cable is stiff enough to be self-supporting. Mine is now arranged to fit behind the fork, out of sight.
Mind you, I've never heard of a SON being damaged by ingress of water, nor the hub I use this arrangement on at the moment, Bafang's QSWXK, but I don't like engineering that is designed to fail, as SON hub junctions can easily be arranged to do, when it is so easy instead to do the job right.
Andre Jute