Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Lighting and Electronics => Topic started by: Andre Jute on March 19, 2012, 12:07:29 AM

Title: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on March 19, 2012, 12:07:29 AM
The other evening my wife and I, walking along our street, noticed that the orange sodium lights left some dark patches between them. I explained about the fresnel on the Busch & Muller LineTek bicycle rear lights  
http://www.bumm.de/produkte/dynamo-ruecklicht/toplight-line-plus.html
http://www.bumm.de/produkte/dynamo-ruecklicht/toplight-flat-s.html
distributing the light from one or two LED's along a line, and wondered if it could have application to spreading the light of street lamps into the dark spots between lamps.

My wife asked why this technology was developed for bicycles and I explained that it is believed that a line of light is more visible to a motorist than a point of light. She wanted to know how much. I said, "See, what is measured is light output, which is irrelevant up to a point where it becomes noticeable at all. Noticeablity is much harder to establish than on-off visibility. But the D-Toplight XS rear lamps I fit passed noticeability, as compared to car rear lights, two or three years ago." She says, "So, you're a psychologist and a colour expert. Guess." Cornered, I said, "The improvement in noticeability to a driver with LineTek, depending on surrounding light interference, from the photos I've seen, will be between negligible and possibly as high as 25%."  The photos I saw are in the test at
http://www.bumm.de/fileadmin/user_upload/323/Test_Ruecklichter.pdf  
Next she asks, "How much is the best of these stripey lights?" I say, "About 40 euro delivered." She says, "Why are you hesitating? Buy it. How can a 25% increase in your safety not be worth 40 euro?"

Mmm. Exactly!

(http://www.bumm.de/uploads/tx_bummprodukte/323__Toplight_Line__schraeg_rechts.jpg)

I'll report later on whether the Toplight Line Plus is truly more noticeable than my present D-Toplight XS, the previous champion rear light.

NOTE: I use my BUMM lights in combination with a Cateye TL LD-1100 with both rows on flash, a killer combination. It is my belief that if a bicyclist has only one rear light, it should blink, and these German lights by law are forbidden to blink. Thus, in my opinion, the BUMM lights, however good they may be, shouldn't be your only rear light, but, if you're on a tight budget, the Cateye LD-1100 could be your only rear light, set with one row on steady and one row on blink.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Danneaux on March 19, 2012, 01:13:30 AM
Andre,

I'm glad you're getting the Toplight Line Plus; I do think you will be safer as a result.

I went through similar hesitation and yes, I agonized a bit over the cost. What made the difference for me was the memory of how my friend's B&M D-Toplight XS looked as we worked our way up the long hill in driving rain (sorry) from Spa to Stavelot in BE as the 2008 F1-GP was about to start. Michael Schumacher (yes, it was he, driving very responsibly in a red 360 Challenge Stradale) passed us on the 8% upgrade. Being a car and F1 fan, I paid attention as he passed (nearly fell off the bike is more like it) and the pinpoint light emitted by the D-Toplight ahead was almost completely consumed in road spray, with only a single tiny dot to mark its presence. I spent the next half-hour or so pondering whether a second or third LED might help, and now here we are, with B&M's Toplight Line Plus addressing that very concern.

I have no doubt the line of light does make one more conspicuous as well as making it easier for following drivers to judge closing distance. The pinpoint of light just didn't cut it, and as a following cyclist, I could really see why. The fresnel lens has the effect of a neon tube, and is pretty attention-getting even if it doesn't blink. I do think the solid beam helps closing drivers better judge distance than an intermittent/flashing source of whatever configuration (think about a car stopped at night on the road shoulder with only emergency flashers on. I find I can better judge the distance to the car once my own car headlights illuminate the stopped vehicle's red taillight reflectors).

For a shot of my Toplight Line Plus in action on an overcast day with rain imminent, see: http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=3896.msg17272#msg17272

I use the Toplight Line Plus alone in high-traffic daylight rides during commuting hours, and at dusk or full night on rural roads and quiet country lanes with adequate sightlines. However, for areas with curves/hills/limited sightlines and any kind of urban use, I supplement it with two 1-watt battery-powered LED blinkys set to flash (Blackburn Mars 4.0 and Portland Design Works Radbot 1000). I figure the Toplight Line Plus will establish my position, while the blinkys will draw attention. The combination seems to work; on Friday, yet another driver rolled down a window at the traffic light to comment on how visible I was compared to other cyclists and even other car traffic -- "You stand right out; no missing you". I uh, kinda hoped they would miss me, but I got the idea I could be easily seen.

Speaking of recent developments in taillights, there is a nice comparison of recent high-power LED blinkys at:
http://bicycles.blogoverflow.com/2012/03/tail-light-review/

Based on the review, I believe I'll look into getting the 2W CygoLite HotShot. It is USB-rechargeable, which would have put me off before I installed the Tout Terrain The Plug2, which now allows for on-board recharging when necessary. I really believe something like this has its place in certain conditions, and view it as a rarely-used supplement for either of my 1W LED blinkys. As you ask, "how much is any increment in your safety worth?". When I look down into the car stopped next to me and see a driver avidly watching television on an in-car monitor, I realize I need all the help I can get to be seen in the dense urban traffic stream. There's too many distractions in today's livingrooms-on-wheels.

Glad you'll soon be that little bit safer, Andre. I really do believe it will help.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on March 19, 2012, 04:47:28 AM
You've just made up my mind, Dan. When I order the BUMM E- front light to work with my 36V battery (I'm waiting for the last possible moment to see if an E- Cyo appears) I will also order the Toplight Line Plus. That 2W rear flasher also looks interesting for only $40. -- Andre Jute
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Danneaux on March 19, 2012, 05:27:53 AM
Andre,

This should make you feel even better about the Toplight Line Plus:
http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/achterlampen/BM_toplight_line_plus/index_en.html
...and...
http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/index_en.html#BM_toplight_line_plus

On the second link, note particularly the wall pattern of the Toplight Line Plus compared to the D-Toplight Plus (somewhat similar to the D-Toplight XS in having a single, none-fresneled LED). Note also the tester's comments on the relative nature and merits of each beam.

The Toplight LinePlus has another merit: Some of the two LEDs' lighting (both direct and reflected via the fresnel lens) is "spilled" into the area behind the massive, flat, red reflector, backlighting its entirety. It pales compared to the neon-like line of light above it, but it definitely is visible at night, and accounts for that much more lighted surface area. Yet another virtue: the taillight has a manual switch to turn if off so the standlight won't attract unwanted attention (and thieves) after parking. The light comes on again automatically with the headlight so it is failsafe and one needn't remember to turn it back on again.

Having done such a good sales job on the Toplight Line Plus, I probably should still show you the Philips Saferide lumiring taillamp:
http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/achterlampen/Philips_saferide/index_en.html
Another fresneled design, the Philips would probably not be my choice because it is less bright overall, and I do believe sheer brilliance is a huge positive factor in determining conspicuity, especially in heavy traffic where there are already car-bright taillights to compete against. It does have a very nice design and I do like the "ring of light" effect and greater side visibility, but would sacrifice both for the Toplight Line Plus' brighter "bar" of red light. I think it is down to individual preference and actually comparing the two; I've never seen the Philips in person.

With regard to your opening comment on steady versus blinking lights, no other vehicles in the traffic mix (excepting emergency vehicles) have flashing red or white lights. Bright as my IQ Cyo R headlight is, I may have to add a blinking white lamp to the front to be "recognized" as a bicycle. White blinky front lights have become so common here'bouts that steady lights just don't stand out from the crowd enough to be identified as a bicyclist.

Best,

Dan.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: il padrone on March 19, 2012, 12:09:49 PM
Running my Supernova E3 Pro 24/7 (because it is so easy with the Schmidt's negligable drag) I have been finding one interesting response to a solid light. Riding in daylight I have found cars about to pull out from side streets, or perched to do a right-hand turn (like A US left) and they stop for me (nice), but I am still 50-70m away and they have a stack of room to do their turn  ???

My theory on this - they see my bright headlight and the bulk of two panniers and intially think I am a fast-moving motorbike, so they stop. By the time they realise I am only a bicycle I have moved closer and they need to wait for me to pass. In view of this I would sugest that blinky headlights may be a disadvantage as drivers are more likely to rush on through, taking risks with the cyclist. I'm continuing to run the Supernova E3 Pro as a solid daytime and night-time light.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: StuntPilot on March 19, 2012, 01:48:31 PM
Great info and links here! I intend to get the TopLight Line Plus as it seems infinitely superior to the flashing lights that pass as bike lights. Will probably go for the Brake-Tec model - very clever!!

http://www.bumm.de/innovation-original/braketec.html (http://www.bumm.de/innovation-original/braketec.html)

There is a reason that B&M lights do not flash - the law in Germany makes such flashing lights illegal because they are not as safe as a steady light. Of course you can supplement the rear light with a set of blinkies, and that will help as will additional reflectors etc.

I like the brightness of the TopLight series and the indication of distance provided by the horizontal spread of the light. The brake-light idea is great too.

Having seen cyclists in Winter in busy wet city centres in the UK, the blinking lights are useful but not adequate. Withe the Toplight Line Brake Tech, I would much rather be identified as a motorbike than a cyclist on a dark wet night!
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on March 19, 2012, 10:36:47 PM
Thanks for the further references, Dan. I've seen the Philips Saferide lumiring lamp and would have been more impressed if its light output were greater. I am not interested in sacrificing my safety for the convenience of motorists. The principle behind the Philips design is mutual cooperation on the road, and the writer of the article assumes it axiomatically. But drivers in the States, in Britain and here in Ireland don't cooperate with cyclists in the way they do in The Netherlands where a different presumption of the burden of proof in auto/cycle accidents has created an entirely different attitude on the part of motorists, which causes them actively to look out for cyclists not to hit, which in turn makes the Philips light useful, perhaps even superior as the writer claims. In any event, it makes it the decent thing to do in The Netherlands not to irritate drivers. The purpose of my Catseye TL LD-1100, with both bars run on interfering blinking patterns whenever the bike moves day and night, a lamp I use in addition to a steady BUMM light, is specifically to catch every motorist's eye, and I don't care a damn if people who routinely mishandle their lethal instruments within six inches of me are irritated because I know that otherwise they won't even see me.

Il Padrone: I also run my Cyo front light day and night; I just don't see the point of turning off a lamp with a 50K hours life expectancy. And, as a longtime believer in Volvo estates for my wife and child's safety (but dull for me, though I liked one I fitted with small block Chevy), I like daylight running lights not only for myself, but also appreciate them on other people's cars  and bikes as making them visible further away.

Stuntpilot, I think you will find that the German law was made at a time when blinkies were limp. The other evening I came out onto a busy road, cars, buses, motorbikes, bicycles, and the vehicle visible furthest away, and which transfixed me even when past me, was a bicycle ridden with verve by a young lady, blinkies like spawn of Satan front and rear, buses and motorcars braking to let her in. She was riding that bike like I used to drive a Porsche in traffic when I was young. I back up my front Cyo with a blinkie that cost a tenner and is a good deal leas puissant than whatever she uses, but is still clearly visible in traffic 300 yards away, which should be good enough. I think we're approaching the point in the brightness of blinkies where that old shibboleth, that a blinkie acts as a magnet for the half-asleep driver who will drive directly to the point of the accident which the cyclist can't win, could soon come true. But, until it is proven true, I shall be buying blinkies. By the way, where I previously lived I was on the main road down the Carbery Coast. I used to stand on the pavement and stop the bicyclists coming by -- hardly any of them local, almost all foreign tourists -- and have a chat. Almost all the Germans, the moment they were out from under their silly laws, fitted blinkies for touring in countries where they are permitted. Only the most uptight, those who bristle at even an unintended and tenuous suggestion that they might not be perfectly law-abiding, stick with the steady lamp only. I received my first grounding in bicycle accident statistics, and my abiding interest in bike lamps, from one of these Germans I stopped beside the road to ask if I could look at his BUMM halogen lamp (gee, I'm giving away my age!); several of them were keen on reading Ken Kifer, an American who stripped away roadie prejudice and bias to study the statistics rationally. He taught me that the most important blinkie is actually the front one, to stop idiots hitting you from rights angles by showing them that you're coming, and the brighter lit the junction, the more important the blinkie becomes. A lot of this stuff is counter-intuitive.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Cambirder on March 19, 2012, 11:14:59 PM
You can get that technology for even less with one of these

http://www.bike24.com/1.php?content=8;navigation=1;product=16764;page=7;menu=1000,5,66;mid=39;pgc=138:512

This is what I have on the back of my RST and I only carry a small battery powered light for back-up. I don't agree that a flashing light makes you more visible than a steady one, and they can by very annoying which is why blinkies are not very welcome on audax night rides, and I won't use that mode.

The only advantage I can see of having blinkies is for battery life
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Aushiker on November 09, 2012, 10:45:57 AM
I don't agree that a flashing light makes you more visible than a steady one, and they can by very annoying which is why blinkies are not very welcome on audax night rides, and I won't use that mode.

This applies I assume to a front light but an interesting discussion on the value of flashing light in daylight has been posted to the London Cyclist (http://www.londoncyclist.co.uk/raf-pilot-teach-cyclists/). This contrasts with the daylight running light approach of Busch & Muller.

BTW I use a Busch & Muller Toplight Line Plus on my touring bike and was considering the brake light version for my commuter and do wonder if it adds that incremental safety value discussed here.

Andrew
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on November 09, 2012, 11:51:18 PM
This applies I assume to a front light ...

BTW I use a Busch & Muller Toplight Line Plus on my touring bike and was considering the brake light version for my commuter ...

I run flashing lights front and rear, though recently I've been so impressed with the reactions of drivers to my steady daylight running lights (currently a IQ Fly E and Toplight Line Plus) that the front flashing light is right off the bike and the batteries on the rear one went flat from disuse. Now that it's winter and conditions are bad, I shall probably run them again.

Please don't forget if you fit the variant to let us know how it works and whether it adds to your safety. Personal reports are absolutely invaluable.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: mickeg on November 10, 2012, 01:02:32 PM
LED lights are brightest with fresh batteries.  So, if you are seeking the best safest brightest tail light, don't forget to change batteries frequently.  I usually use rechargeable batteries.  My half watt lights that use two AAA batteries are noticeably dimmer after about 10 hours of use in flashing mode.  But if you do not have two lights side by side, one with fresh batteries, you may not notice how much dimmer it is.

When touring I use two tail lights.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: revelo on January 09, 2013, 05:13:02 AM
LED lights are brightest with fresh batteries.  

Alkaline batteries decline in voltage with age (slope pattern) whereas lithium batteries tend to maintain a high voltage until near the end of their life then decline rapidly (waterfall pattern). Lithium batteries have the further advantages of working better in cold temperatures (near or below freezing) and lasting longer in use and also having a longer shelf life and they don't leak damaging chemicals when they go bad. Since I almost never use my tail-light (I've used it once, for about two hours while biking in the rain on a highway, during over 8000 km of touring in the past year), battery cost is not an issue with me and so I use lithium batteries in my tail-light (with the batteries protected by paper insulation until needed, so the light won't turn on accidentally and drain the battery). For those who frequently use lights, the cost difference between alkaline and lithium would be more significant of an issue.

Oh, and another thing, to answer the original question of the OP, health is worth a lot to me. Especially here in the United States, since I don't have heath insurance. By not paying for health insurance, I've been saving like $5000/year (won't be an option in the future, due to changes in the law) since I'm over 50 and health insurance is very expensive for people older than 50. Essentially, that's free money that I can spend on anything that reduces my chances of having to see a doctor: good food, more expensive motels so as to avoid a dangerous stretch of highway necessary to reach the cheaper motels,  any sort of equipment that might possibly have wellness benefits, good beer to reduce my stress level...the list of ways to spend that $5000 goes on and on.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on January 09, 2013, 06:28:43 AM
Hi Revelo.
You certainly appear to know your batteries.
I have been using rechargeable batteries.
What kind of decline do they have? Waterfall or slope?
Thanks
Matt
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: il padrone on January 09, 2013, 07:33:50 AM
Rechargeable batteries generally have a lower output capacity than the equivalent alkaline or lithium cell to start with. Not sure about their drain pattern. I generally use storage batteries asa rule. My primary lighting is dynamo-based and I don't run through batteries fast enough to justify the hassle and fuss of rechargeables.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: magos on April 15, 2013, 03:37:04 PM
Question to Andre: "I use my BUMM lights in combination with a Cateye TL LD-1100 with both rows on flash, a killer combination". That's the setup I would like to have, but I'm wondering, did you manage to fit both lights on the rear carrier, or did you mount the Cateye somewhere else (eg seat post)?

Thanks
Yorgos
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on April 15, 2013, 11:14:57 PM
Question to Andre: "I use my BUMM lights in combination with a Cateye TL LD-1100 with both rows on flash, a killer combination". That's the setup I would like to have, but I'm wondering, did you manage to fit both lights on the rear carrier, or did you mount the Cateye somewhere else (eg seat post)?

Thanks
Yorgos

My BUMM Line is attached to the bracket on the Tubus Cosmo rack.

The Cateye TL-LD1100 is tiewrapped to the rear crossrail of the rack, on top of it. You can't hang it below because then it blocks the Line. Fortunately, on my bike there is clear space there, because I don't use a rack top bag but a saddlebag (a big leather weekend bag) sitting crosswise on the rack, and never carry anything else on the rack because either a pannier basket or a pannier briefcase or another pannier bag is always attached to the bike as I like carrying stuff low down (my typical shopping is a case of wine...)

The 1100 also needs a tie wrap across it from side to side because I've lost an end cap, which ruined the first one I bought.

(http://www.coolmainpress.com/miscimage/andre_s_kranich_fitting_cateye_tlld1100lrearlamp_on_tubus_cosmo.jpg)

To orient you, you can see the back pockets of my saddlebag in the centre, on the left the brown leather toolbar, on the right the rearward hook of the pannier basket, both the toolbar and the basket attaching to the lower rail of the Tubus Cosmo rack. The shiny metal is the stainless steel of the rack, the Line below it, the Cateye sitting on top of it, the arrangement of the tiewraps clear.

I considered seatpost and luggage mounting for the Cateye but found that the best control over the direction and visibility  of the lamp was on the rear edge of the rack. Also, my bike is huge, so the rear edge of the rack is nicely positioned to shine right into the eyes of any careless driver. There is absolutely no possibility of a driver not seeing me from anywhere on a 270 degree arc, and that's just my rear lamps.

Andre Jute
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: No on August 09, 2013, 07:33:53 AM
Thanks for the further references, Dan. I've seen the Philips Saferide lumiring lamp and would have been more impressed if its light output were greater. I am not interested in sacrificing my safety for the convenience of motorists. The principle behind the Philips design is mutual cooperation on the road, and the writer of the article assumes it axiomatically. But drivers in the States, in Britain and here in Ireland don't cooperate with cyclists in the way they do in The Netherlands where a different presumption of the burden of proof in auto/cycle accidents has created an entirely different attitude on the part of motorists, which causes them actively to look out for cyclists not to hit, which in turn makes the Philips light useful, perhaps even superior as the writer claims. In any event, it makes it the decent thing to do in The Netherlands not to irritate drivers. The purpose of my Catseye TL LD-1100, with both bars run on interfering blinking patterns whenever the bike moves day and night, a lamp I use in addition to a steady BUMM light, is specifically to catch every motorist's eye, and I don't care a damn if people who routinely mishandle their lethal instruments within six inches of me are irritated because I know that otherwise they won't even see me.

Il Padrone: I also run my Cyo front light day and night; I just don't see the point of turning off a lamp with a 50K hours life expectancy. And, as a longtime believer in Volvo estates for my wife and child's safety (but dull for me, though I liked one I fitted with small block Chevy), I like daylight running lights not only for myself, but also appreciate them on other people's cars  and bikes as making them visible further away.

Stuntpilot, I think you will find that the German law was made at a time when blinkies were limp. The other evening I came out onto a busy road, cars, buses, motorbikes, bicycles, and the vehicle visible furthest away, and which transfixed me even when past me, was a bicycle ridden with verve by a young lady, blinkies like spawn of Satan front and rear, buses and motorcars braking to let her in. She was riding that bike like I used to drive a Porsche in traffic when I was young. I back up my front Cyo with a blinkie that cost a tenner and is a good deal leas puissant than whatever she uses, but is still clearly visible in traffic 300 yards away, which should be good enough. I think we're approaching the point in the brightness of blinkies where that old shibboleth, that a blinkie acts as a magnet for the half-asleep driver who will drive directly to the point of the accident which the cyclist can't win, could soon come true. But, until it is proven true, I shall be buying blinkies. By the way, where I previously lived I was on the main road down the Carbery Coast. I used to stand on the pavement and stop the bicyclists coming by -- hardly any of them local, almost all foreign tourists -- and have a chat. Almost all the Germans, the moment they were out from under their silly laws, fitted blinkies for touring in countries where they are permitted. Only the most uptight, those who bristle at even an unintended and tenuous suggestion that they might not be perfectly law-abiding, stick with the steady lamp only. I received my first grounding in bicycle accident statistics, and my abiding interest in bike lamps, from one of these Germans I stopped beside the road to ask if I could look at his BUMM halogen lamp (gee, I'm giving away my age!); several of them were keen on reading Ken Kifer, an American who stripped away roadie prejudice and bias to study the statistics rationally. He taught me that the most important blinkie is actually the front one, to stop idiots hitting you from rights angles by showing them that you're coming, and the brighter lit the junction, the more important the blinkie becomes. A lot of this stuff is counter-intuitive.

Andre Jute

In downpours and fog you need an even brighter blinky IMO. If it's too bright you can always point one or all to the ground (I use two 400r's actually). I learned this the hard way in a downpour once. Came out safe luckily enough. I had two of the tld-1000, predecessor to the 1100. And that still wasn't enough. That dude makes an even brighter one now. Twice as bright as the 400r.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Andre Jute on August 09, 2013, 05:01:31 PM
In downpours and fog you need an even brighter blinky IMO. If it's too bright you can always point one or all to the ground (I use two 400r's actually). I learned this the hard way in a downpour once. Came out safe luckily enough. I had two of the tld-1000, predecessor to the 1100. And that still wasn't enough. That dude makes an even brighter one now. Twice as bright as the 400r.

Interesting perspective.

But I'm not so sure that in a fog or heavy rain more light, beyond a point x, is beneficial. What you have is the fog or the rain acting as a curtain of filter material. What you want to do is light up the curtain with an even glow. More lumens won't light up further beyond the curtain, or even, given the square-root formula of light intensity with distance, make it much larger. In fact, logically the opposite applies: instead of a good lane wide block of diffuse light seen by the driver, and locating the obstacle, he might see a much more diffuse glow wider than the road and not locating the obstacle, you on your bike, clearly at all. On hand of this logic I conclude that heavy rain and fog, especially after dark, makes having just the right amount of light thrown more critical than in most other situations.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: triaesthete on August 09, 2013, 06:35:31 PM

Absolutely correct Andre. My practical experience fully supports your logic.

Less is more....

Ian
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: No on August 11, 2013, 10:40:46 PM
Interesting perspective.

But I'm not so sure that in a fog or heavy rain more light, beyond a point x, is beneficial. What you have is the fog or the rain acting as a curtain of filter material. What you want to do is light up the curtain with an even glow. More lumens won't light up further beyond the curtain, or even, given the square-root formula of light intensity with distance, make it much larger. In fact, logically the opposite applies: instead of a good lane wide block of diffuse light seen by the driver, and locating the obstacle, he might see a much more diffuse glow wider than the road and not locating the obstacle, you on your bike, clearly at all. On hand of this logic I conclude that heavy rain and fog, especially after dark, makes having just the right amount of light thrown more critical than in most other situations.

I just figured having as much light as possible flashing and blinking around would make the driver more likely to slow down and watch out while distracted by a storm. It's not just about seeing, it's about noticing too. Although I must admit I didn't understand your post from the 4th sentence onward.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: triaesthete on August 11, 2013, 11:36:39 PM

No,
I wager the driver will now be distracted by your lights as well as the storm and that will further impair their judgement whilst you are now an indistinct blur across the windscreen. A lot of drivers in my experience just plough on regardless in poor visibility and hope for the best.....

Good luck
Ian
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Danneaux on August 12, 2013, 04:38:35 AM
Hi All!

It appears the BUMM Toplight Line Plus has some company in the form of the Trelock LS 813 Trio Flat, which appears to use a very similar prism lens design the call "Light Guide" It does appear to lack the manual standlight shutoff swith of the Toplight Line Plus.
See: http://www.trelock.de/web/en/produkte/fahrrad-beleuchtung/dynamo-rueckleuchte/8002305_LS_813.php
For photo in operation, see: http://www.trelock.de/web/_bilder/startseite/wechselbilder/2012/LS_813_trio_flat.jpg

I notice they are available from Amazon: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trelock-Light-black-dynamo-lights/dp/B006MQY8XQ ...and at least one US shop... http://www.cantitoeroad.com/Trelock-LS813-Rear-Tailight

Best,

Dan. (...who is pleased to see more examples of the LED prism-spread design on the market)
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: martinf on August 25, 2013, 07:58:58 PM
I like mudguard mounted rear lamps, some of the family bikes don't have mounting fittings on the racks and 2 of them don't have racks.

There is now a mudguard mounting lamp using the same kind of concept as the Philips Saferide lumiring and B&M Line Plus:

http://swhs.home.xs4all.nl/fiets/tests/verlichting/achterlampen/BM_secula/index_en.html

This has just become available at some German and French webmerchants, and ought to be better than the point-source B&M Seculite lamps I have at present.

On a couple of bikes (Raven, old 5-speed) I have a Line Plus on the rack and a Seculite on the mudguard, they run off the SON generator.

Idea being that the mudguard mounted lamp will still be visible if floppy luggage on the rack partly obscures the Line Plus.
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: Danneaux on August 25, 2013, 08:41:53 PM
Hi Martin!

Like you, I really like the idea of lights mounted on the rear mudguard. I have had some, and simply loved them. the Secula certainly looks the business and is detailed in the 2013 B&M catalog here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Downloads/B&M_2013.pdf page 18.

However...

My only reservations about 'guard mounted taillights come from past experience where I encountered several unanticipated hazards:

1) In a fall-over, the lights proved unusually subject to damage. Until I had one, I hadn't anticipated the tail-end of the mudguard could possibly contact the ground first...but, sadly, it did (the light extended its reach to\ward the ground with the bike on its side). They are also subject to damage from self-closing doors when leaving public restrooms and -- when one is really tired on a 400km day ride -- manage to find whatever obstacle is in the way when one lifts the bike to swing it around prior to remounting after a break-stop. I long ago noticed the European iterations of these lights sometimes come with a little plastic "cage" to protect the light. I even say one made of vinyl-dipped lightweight steel wire once. Brilliant idea, but so far unavailable to me Over Here. They're shown on page 27 of B&M's catalog at the above link. Maybe one of my Dutch pals could pick one up for me.

2) In some installations where the mudguard stays must be long (as with a 700C wheel and mounting to the dropout eye), the added mass of the taillight can cause a plastic mudguard to crack and fail on cobbles and really rough roads, or the peened rivets to stretch and open.

If I could only solve those problems in my use, I'd put one right on every bike I own. Martin, have you experienced such problems? If so, how did you overcome them?

All the best,

Dan. (...who wants a lantern rouge at the end of his train)
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: martinf on August 26, 2013, 06:20:03 AM
Hi Martin!

Like you, I really like the idea of lights mounted on the rear mudguard. I have had some, and simply loved them. the Secula certainly looks the business and is detailed in the 2013 B&M catalog here: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/Downloads/B&M_2013.pdf page 18.

However...

My only reservations about 'guard mounted taillights come from past experience where I encountered several unanticipated hazards:

1) In a fall-over, the lights proved unusually subject to damage. Until I had one, I hadn't anticipated the tail-end of the mudguard could possibly contact the ground first...but, sadly, it did (the light extended its reach to\ward the ground with the bike on its side). They are also subject to damage from self-closing doors when leaving public restrooms and -- when one is really tired on a 400km day ride -- manage to find whatever obstacle is in the way when one lifts the bike to swing it around prior to remounting after a break-stop. I long ago noticed the European iterations of these lights sometimes come with a little plastic "cage" to protect the light. I even say one made of vinyl-dipped lightweight steel wire once. Brilliant idea, but so far unavailable to me Over Here. They're shown on page 27 of B&M's catalog at the above link. Maybe one of my Dutch pals could pick one up for me.

2) In some installations where the mudguard stays must be long (as with a 700C wheel and mounting to the dropout eye), the added mass of the taillight can cause a plastic mudguard to crack and fail on cobbles and really rough roads, or the peened rivets to stretch and open.

If I could only solve those problems in my use, I'd put one right on every bike I own. Martin, have you experienced such problems? If so, how did you overcome them?

All the best,

Dan. (...who wants a lantern rouge at the end of his train)

I've been using mudguard-mounted lamps since about 1980.

Problem 1:

In France mudguard-mounted lamps used to come with a chrome-plated steel cage that fitted around the lamp. Heavy but effective. I used to have these cages on family bikes with stainless-steel mudguards, still got them on the 2 visitor bikes that get abused. But I didn't like the extra weight on plastic mudguards (problem 2), so I do without on my own bikes that have these. Sometimes I have bumped or scratched a rear lamp, but so far never destroyed one, if I ever do, I reckon on just replacing it, these lamps are inexpensive.

Problem 2:

Yes. The extra weight can add to mudguard failure. That said, my old mountain bike has had a mudguard-mounted rear lamp since I bought it, and is only on its second set of mudguards (albeit held together with duck tape since 2010). Mudguards and lamp survived my 2011 Spain tour, partly off road.

My 700C lightweight has had a mudguard-mounted rear lamp on a lightweight plastic mudguard for years, but is only used on smooth surfaces. 
Title: Re: How much is any increment in your safety worth?
Post by: il padrone on August 26, 2013, 11:15:32 AM
Four of our bikes have SKS chromoplastic mudguards with B&M Seculites mounted on them. All the bikes have kickstands so we don't go laying them down very often. The tail-lights have been in use for the past 4-10 years and we have had negligable problems, few knocks or bashes. I took a spill once and popped the light cover off - simple matter to refasten it. My son managed to knock the cover off his and lost it. SJS Cycles sell replacement light covers so I bought a couple.

The Seculite is really very low weight so I don't see any problems with added stress to the mudguard.

It seemed to stand up to this 'off-road' tour quite well  ;D

(http://app.getsmileapp.com/images/efbc201f769131cef1234cd76095c46613621b079f8137b5d2d2ca90fbf2006e/jpg/2048x1536)