Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: strictnaturist on January 03, 2012, 01:32:41 PM
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Good New Year to everyone and hope that wind is behind you! Could anyone with Northern European (wet) touring experience give me any advice regarding buying a set of Carradice Super C panniers? I like the size of the bags (bigger than Ortlieb) the look of the bags (tough,but not too flash to try and run off with) etc .... The bags appear a lot on southern/drier touring kit lists...but can they keep that wet stuff off your camping/sleeping gear if you head North?
your thoughts are appreciated.
SN
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I use Super Cs cycle camping in the UK.
I have experienced enough rain to even wash the A7 away at Langholm.
I have found my bags keep the rain out.
The material can get wet and I keep a supermarket 'bag for life' in each as insurance, but I have yet to find the inside getting wet.
After 5 years use I purchased some of the carradice wax and treated mine to a layer, spread by cloth and then heat soaked in with a hair dryer. I am not sure if this was necessary, but it does no harm except it makes dust cling easier to the bags.
The capacity is excellent, probably encourages me to take too much...
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Brilliant,thanks. I look forward to treating my sherpa to these legendary bags.
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Julian,
I've always wondered if the cotton bags are a bit like the old cotton tents -- waterproof until you touch them, the surface tension is altered, and the water comes through? I'm guessing the wax works to prevent wetting-out? At any rate, you sound like the fellow to ask, and it would be nice to put this question aside. Certainly, the cotton Carradice bags have a wonderful, classic look that really can't be matched in modern materials. Nothing says "expedition" quite like a Carradice, at least to my mind.
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
I used to use several and still have one of those old cotton tents. They are superb in hot sunny weather but miserable in prolonged rain.
When family camping I used to be like a gramophone record - "don't touch the tent or it will let rain in".
Some years ago I was camped with my then young family and a depression came and sat over the area for 3 days giving us continuous heavy rain. We decamped to nearby grandparents after a day leaving the tents up.
Once the rain cleared up we came back and found that the old cotton pup tent had a sleeping mat afloat in the water inside it!
We soon got everything dried out, the children thought it was a great adventure.
The Super Cs are the opposite, they just never have let any water in or through for me and they get tested regularly in the UK.
The material is so dense and thick that it works like the old cotton Ventile garments.
Waxing seems to leave the material working the same, the outside can get and feel wet, the inside is dry.
I have tried just about every brand of quality pannier commonly available here in the UK except Ortlieb, they have all been very good but the Carradice Super Cs are my favourite.
Julian.
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Jim,
A couple of changes I did make to my Super Cs.
I was finding the rack fixing clips a bit awkward to undo in cold weather, my fingers are not as nimble as they used to be.
I searched around and found Arkel Cam Hooks which I purchased and retro fitted the system to my Super Cs.
I find the Cam Hooks excellent in use, although I have had one return spring failure. Contacting Arkel resulted in them sending me a free bundle of spare hooks! Great customer service.
On another forum I came across the suggestion of doubling the lower retention clip. I have done this on my rear panniers with each clip facing outwards. The double clip setup just fits right into my Thorn expedition rack.
Julian.
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The Super Cs are the opposite, they just never have let any water in or through for me and they get tested regularly in the UK.
The material is so dense and thick that it works like the old cotton Ventile garments.
Waxing seems to leave the material working the same, the outside can get and feel wet, the inside is dry.
+1 for the waterproof properties of Carradice waxed cotton.
While I have no experience of Super C, I have used Carradice Nelson Longflap (waxed cotton) saddlebags over the years and I have never known them to let water in - even before they put nylon drawstring around the inner. Added to this, they are tough as old boots, several members of my local CTC have used these for who knows how many years through tens of thousands of miles in all weathers.
Incidentally I was once introduced to a chap who had just returned from a tour of New Zealand, he used B&Bs mostly, but he carried ALL of his luggage in a Nelson Longflap!
Brilliant products.
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Julian, Relayer --
Thanks, guys; this is just what I was hoping to hear. There's something reassuring about finding one more product that -- like all-leather Brooks saddles -- is pretty much unimprovable. It seems Carradice and cotton-bike bag makers got it right, and somehow -- despite competition by whatever trendy whatsit later hit the market -- have been able to continue producing them for an audience that knows they're a Quality product.
Great photo of a terrific mod, Julian.
There is a wonderful piece on Carradice here:
http://thebikeshow.net/another-day-in-carradice/
...with links to an audio-accompanied slide show and a lengthy podcast audio interview with current Carradice Owner and MD David Chadwick from that page or directly here:
http://thebikeshow.net/slideshows/carradice/
Additional photos of the author's (Jack999 for the Bike Show, a weekly radio show about cycling broadcast in central London on radio art station Resonance 104.4FM) factory tour on Flickr here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/19871340@N00/sets/72157628147760119/
Wonderful stuff!
Best,
Dan.
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Dan,
Thanks, I enjoyed that 'trip' round Carradice.
My first Carradice bag was a Camper Longflap, still in my garage and fits on a bike using a Carrimor Uplift, now a collectors item.
My more recent Super C bags are signed by Priscilla (rear), Christine (front), Kelly (bar bag and zipped roll), Maggie (rack pack) and one unsigned (stuffsack).
Wonderful stuff indeed!
Julian.
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Super C fabric will resist the most severe of downpours (I have a Super C saddlebag that has been in the rain for days).
However, for camping I bought Ortleibs because they are waterPROOF. You can wipe them down and bring them inside your tent (this is not good with soaking wet Super C cotton) OR you can leave them outside on wet grass in the rain (it doesn't matter...they are totally waterproof).
In reality I throw them in the space between inner tent and fly-sheet, sometimes on wet grass...it down't matter with Ortleib.
Care must be taken when storing damp Super C though...it will rot if left in, say, a damp shed with no air movement.
Nothing (in my opinion) looks as good as a classic tourer sporting black Super C panniers though.
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I like the look of the Super C's it might be a silly question but when they get wet do they take on water and get a lot heavier
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Nothing (in my opinion) looks as good as a classic tourer sporting black Super C panniers though.
I agree.
I think it's all part of the allure of traditional/natural materials i.e. steel bikes, leather saddle, leather bar tape/grips, waxed cotton baggage, leather touring shoes/mitts, merino wool tops ...
An interesting take on this here http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2012/01/being-in-nature.html
P.S. check out the comments on that blog post also, lively discussion
P.P.S. Woohoo I'm now a Full Member!! ;D
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thanks for those links dan relly enjoyed the tour. mind you i never as yet heard anyone say they own or worn the poncho ;D so anyone willing to pose with there mystery poncho ;)
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anyone willing to pose with there mystery poncho ;)
Here is the pro-route poncho:
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1258.jpg)
(http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r6/kukulaj/IMG_1261.jpg)
Mine doesn't have a hood - seems like some do.
This is the first time I have tried it on my Thorn. When I was commuting a few miles on my Azor city bike, back in Oregon, it worked very nicely. That bike has a fully upright posture: one's hands are roughly at one's knees, not stretched out at all. I'll have to experiment a bit to see how best to adjust it on the Thorn, with my hands more out front. But I can be patient - today was a beautiful day, warm and sunny, not poncho weather at all!
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cheers jimk looking good there buddy what you now need is one on those old firemen oil caps remember the big yellow ones they work brilliant if you have the b...s to ware one. ;D
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Lookin' good, Jim! Classic! Visible! Rain-protected!
I think you've already found the secret to success with one of these things -- not having it stretched taut across your back by the use of drop handlebars, as I used to run with my Burley Rain Cape copy back in the day. The cape would draw tight across my back, leaving it soaked from perspiration no matter how open the bottom was. I always suspicioned I was using it with the wrong bike setup to work properly. They do work a treat for keeping one dry and ventilated to mid-thigh. To solve that problem, I went with open-back above-the-knee cycling chaps/booties all-in-one, also by Burley back in their co-op days. Except for the wet back caused by a too-tight fit, the poncho-cape setup worked well overall except in stiff head- and cross-winds, when I could really feel the increased wind resistance.
For awhile, I went with a Gore-Tex cycling-specific jacket, seatless Gore-Tex knickers (derived from "knickerbockers" rather than ladies' underwear, or what folks other than 'Merkins might describe as 3/4 pants) and Gore-Tex knee-high shoe covers-booties. That all worked great till the rain-soaked chain and road oil got to the Gore-Tex, rendering it permanently rain-permeable. <-- See? No such problems with waxed cotton! ;)
Now, I seem to have success with a urethane-coated waterproof jacket with vented cape and pit-zips above and polymer-treated DWR rain pants below, coupled with shoe covers to keep the cleats nice and dry. <-- Again, a lot of work to try and duplicate the effects of waxed cotton...you'd think I'd learn! ;D
Best,
Dan.
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The pro-route cape that I have is polyester with a coating, urethane I presume.
The duxback cape is waxed cotton. That's a dark color - looks green-grey in the photos.
I have never worn my cape on a long ride. On a short ride it is waterproof and ventilated. It does catch the wind, that is certainly a downside. How sweaty would I get over twenty or thirty miles, I don't know.
Recently I dropped some big bucks and got a Showers Pass Elite Mountain jacket, which is made from eVent, I guess rather like Goretex. I had that jacket out on a decently long ride and I got mighty sweaty inside. That was a disappointment.
I was working the census a couple years ago and had to stomp through lots of snow to hang census forms on the door knobs of summer cabins tucked way back in the woods. At first I was wearing some Goretex lined Ecco boots. Snow would come in over the top - it got up mid-thigh depth often enough - and soon I would be hiking with my boots just filled to the top with water. Very unpleasant. Then I switched to my Chippewa leather work boots. Sure, they got thoroughly water-logged. But they would let the water out slowly, so even though my feet were wet, they weren't immersed. I had on polypropylene socks and was staying plenty warm with all that stomping through snow and in those work boots my feet stayed quite happy.
Since then I have acquired some snow shoes... ready for the 2020 census, I guess!
Definitely an interesting problem, how to work with the weather!
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the big yellow ones
Yeah, I just wear the Carradice pro-route helmet cover. Ortlieb makes a nice rain hat, at least it looks good from the photos. Seems the current model is not quite as uncompromising as the one I remember from a few years ago.
We call such a hat a Sou-wester or Southwester. Not sure if that is just an Americanism. They're great for boaters, fishermen, etc. out on the high seas.
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i just tried out the one my son bought me a couple years ago bloody terrible guess i'm to small for such gear ;D ;D
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Guys,
I use one of those Pro Route yellow Carradice capes when the weather is wet and no wind - no wind is quite rare round here.
On a calm day it works really well as you ride along in a contained micro-climate, ventilated from the underneath, take it easy and you will stay dry.
Rain can be bouncing off the road and you will still be dry from the knees up. Of course you need a bike fitted with mudguards (fenders to some).
I also have the Carradice helmet cover but found it too small to use with a helmet having a peak. I now use a Vaude helmet cover which is a taped proofed nylon and quite waterproof. I have a choice of 3 colours, my sons having rejected the use of some.
Going slightly off topic, but still with a 'waxed' product…
When it is windy/wet I wear Paramo clothing. (http://www.paramo.co.uk/en-gb/index.php)
Paramo is the most waterproof/breathable clothing I have encountered.
The only drawbacks are the high initial price and the warmth of the garments.
Paramo use a 'wash in' high tech wax to waterproof the cloth and a liner system which draws moisture outwards from your body.
I only use the Paramo trousers in dire conditions, too warm otherwise even with the vent zips open.
Rainlegs (http://www.rainlegs.com/en/home) usually suffice to keep my knees and thighs dry and warm.
Julian.
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This thread stirred some memories, so I dug through some old photos and found a couple showing me in my "rain jeans", some 34 years ago. When I was a bicycle-commuting uni student (and appearances didn't matter so much, but money surely did), I tried some solutions to wet legs below the rain cape and came up with the idea of melting paraffin wax into the face of the legs. It worked wonderfully -- but only where the wax was applied. Everywhere else -- including eventually under the paraffin, due to wicking -- I got soaked, as one would expect of riding in the rain while wearing jeans. Worse, once wet, the paraffin kept them from dryng in any reasonable time frame, so it meant wearing soaking-wet pants all day.
It just seemed such a good idea at the time...!
I think Carradice has it figured, even if I didn't.
Best,
Dan.
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+1 for Super C.
I've owned a set of 4 and a rackpack for about 8 years. I've never had a problem with stuff getting wet (not counting a suprisingly deep ford that filled the out pockets of the front ones!), never reproofed and the only problem I've had is that the velcro no longer sticks on the rackpack. I use one of the smaller front panniers on the rear for commuting as this stops me taking too much stuff. It stands up to welsh weather year round and despite being rammed into luggage racks on trains and dragged through the odd hedge it's as good as new, just a bit faded.
Traditional, British made, does the job and seemingly indestructible. Like a Thorn.