Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: j22jbl on February 13, 2011, 12:10:00 PM
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I am off to Holland in a couple of months with the family, Youth Hosteling. If is a great destination for a family cycle holiday, with well marked routes and brilliant facilities for those on two wheels.
Navigating from A to B is easy thanks to the well marked cycle routes, but I wonder if a SatNav might just remove some stress from the end of the day when the kids are starting to flag, by guiding us in to our accommodation without the risk of going around in circles trying to find the hostels.
I use TOMTOM in my car daily for work in the UK. No problems. What I am after is an economical guide to Holland (and Europe) allowing me to type the post code in and then follow instructions to the destination.
Can anyone recommend a system that fits the bill, having experience to call upon. I am willing to consider an App on an iphone, or a dedicated model designed to fit the bike handlebar.
Thanks in advance.
Ps Taking my RST. Cant wait!
John
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Hi,
I use a Satmap active 10 which is great for cycling. I guess there maybe 2 downsides the maps are a bit pricey would be about £71 for whole of Holland 1:50k, also uses quite a bit of power. I use the rechargeable battery you can buy for it and charge it with dynamo hub and e-werk
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You can find some advice on using your iphone on the CTC forum see: http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=47079 (http://forum.ctc.org.uk/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=47079)
'Melon' gives good advice about Offline Maps however I don't think they are free anymore (£0.59p per 3 downloads = almost free)
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Hi,
I use a Satmap active 10 which is great for cycling. I guess there maybe 2 downsides the maps are a bit pricey would be about £71 for whole of Holland 1:50k, also uses quite a bit of power. I use the rechargeable battery you can buy for it and charge it with dynamo hub and e-werk
A few questions. So the satmap allows you to type in a postcode and plans a bike friendly route for you? Does it also recalculate if you go off the route? Can you only load their bespoke maps? Thanks
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I used a Garmin Etrex Vista HCx for several weeks touring in Europe last year.
It was a great help, and had a reasonable selection of POI on the map.
I've also used the TomTom app on an iPhone, and it works well until the battery dies.
Some points to consider:
- iPhone apps chew through the battery, you will only get a few hours.
- you probably need a mapping GPS for what you are doing, the non-mapping ones are only useful for pre-planned routes, or for recoring your track
- the auto-routing is not 100% reliable. It will sometimes take you on a 20km diversion to avoid a short section of highway, or a bridge that it takes a particular dislike to.
- a GPS that takes AA batteries rather than a built in battery means that you can buy some spares if the battery goes flat. Alternative is somethin like the PowerMonkey, but that's another box to carry (and maybe lose)
- an outdoor or bicycle unit is much more water resistant than a car model, and usually has longer battery life
- thoroughly test the bike mount on some rough roads to make sure it is secure and doesn't rattle.
(a dab of Shoe Goo does a good job of suppressing rattles)
- I always lash the lanyard from the GPS to the stem, but then I am a bit paranoid about losing gear
- I found it worthwhile to have a simple Cateye computer as well, just to have a backup for speed and distance
I've had good results from my Garmin, the TomTom may be a bit better at navigating, but I think it depends more on the quality of the maps than anything else. The newer Garmins can take raster maps (e.g. detailed topo maps) which is a real advantage.
Have a look at a Garmin Edge 800, or a Dakota 20. They work out around the same price, usually, when they have equivalent extras.
The Garmin Oregon and the Satmap have bigger screens, but that means that mounting them on the bike is a bit more difficult.
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I too have use the Etrex Vista HcX for bike tours in both the UK and in Europe. It was originally bought for hillwalking. The Etrex performs both roles really well! It is more rugged than most GPS units; it is easy to learn to use and has a very full feature list. However 2 things I don't like
1. It can't display OS maps :-( (not a problem for Holland! but in the UK there should be the option)
2. the Topo & Road maps it uses for UK and Europe are expensive!
I use mine in conjunction with MemoryMap to plan my routes before I leave the house!
Although I like to have the GPS with me, I ALWAYS have a paper map! I like to have flexibility when touring (or hillwalking) a paper map affords this far better than any GPS ever will.
StuTho
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Maybe I'm missing out on some fun, but it seems like unnecessary gadgetry and expense using a Satnav on a bike. What's wrong with a map...doesn't eat batteries, and doesn't end up in a landfill when it packs up two weeks after the warranty runs out (consumer electronics...bleuuughh!). I'm not a total luddite...it can make a lot of sense for driving and hiking. Wouldn't bother on a bike though.
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I have just been reading this thread and can recommend a Garmin Edge 800 it works out at about the same price as a Satmap but is bike specific albeit it can be used for other navigation.
I considered the Edge and the Satmap but in the end went for the Edge due to its size. Mine came withthe UK OS map and it is relatively easy to plan a route and load it onto the unit. You also get lots of ride information which you do not get with the Satmap. As regards batteries it is an internal battery but because I stay in B & B's I can charge each night and the charger is very light effectively no more than a small plug.
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How long does the battery last with the Garmin 800 or any other satnavs mentioned?
Recharging would be key for me as I largely intend using campsites in the future - can any of above be charged using Son Dynohub or does anyone know if the Dynohub can be used to recharge AA batteries?
Ref Iphone, asides battery life issue, download costs abroad for a 1 week trip are likely to cost more than a Garmin, so wouldn't advise, even if you are keeping your day trips short!
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There are Garmin models which use AA batteries and they're arguably more suitable for touring - the GPSMAP and Etrex series. I get a day and a half touring out of a pair of AA batteries, and it's just more convenient for me to not have to worry about charging, and more cost effective than paying for a dyno hub. You may find that even if you already have a dyno hub, the capital cost of whatever regulator/charger might be required wouldn't be worth it. No matter where I am, as long as I have 2 AA's in the bag I can run the present set to exhaustion.
SatMap - as far as I'm aware, it uses raster maps from the OS, as opposed to Garmin's vector mapping. That means no auto-routing.
Free mapping from OpenStreetMap means you don't really have to buy Garmin maps. Try talkytoaster for UK map downloads which will work on Garmin without further processing. There's free mapping for Europe as well but that might need a bit of effort to make it work with your GPS.
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The 800 manual say 15 hours, that'll be without using the backlight, and you can buy an external battery which is good for another 20 hours. The old 705 could be charged using a USB connector, so you could charge from a dyno hub, but the screen turns off when connected in this way so you couldn't use it at the same time that you were charging it. Don't know if the 800 shares this feature..
Does anyone know if you can get satnavs that know about cycle paths, as in the Netherlands you'll spend 95% of your time on paths and they don't necessarily follow the same route as the roads.
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First time I've seen this, but it looks promising:
http://openmtbmap.org/
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Cheers Blacksail & Joatman for the feedback, v useful - note taken for if and when I secure and when I secure that next promotion/new job!
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Re: GPS versus paper maps
GPS will tell you where you are, and tell you when you have gotten off your intended track.
Maps aren't always up to date (GPS or paper) and it's often difficult to pick which of several branch tracks is the one you want.
I found the autorouting very useful finding our way through French villages, and it's a lot quicker than trying to work out the route from a typical road map.
It's essential to have a paper map as well, though, as the GPS is no good for long range planning, and paper maps don't suffer from flat batteries.
Re: Battery life
I use Sanyo Eneloop LiMH AA batteries (2500 mAH, I think) and they seem to give about 15 hrs life, usually enough for 2 days riding. I carry spares in a B&M IXON IQ headlight, and use its charger. B&M do a gadget called an e-Werk which will recharge this from a hub dyno. I'll probably get a PowerMonkey if I do the Outback Odyssey this year (1000km mountain bike ride).
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Reasons I can think of to use a GPS on a bike:
For wilderness trail riding
You like playing with tekkie toys
You're crossing Mongolia or the Democratic Republic of Congo (ie somewhere with no signs, where you can get dangerously lost)
You have a very poor sense of direction
For pre-programming a race route (or other times when it's detrimental to stop and check the map for a few seconds)
So I suppose beneficial indeed in some cases, but for bike touring they're absolutely not necessary for the vast majority of trips ('necessary' being the key word here- If you simply enjoy playing with gadgets that's a different matter).
I write this partly because I hate to see people convinced that yet further expense is necessary if they want to get into the marvellous world of bike touring, partly because I loathe consumer electronics , and partly becuase it's 4 in the morning and I'm trying to take my mind off a monster toothache :-\. Apologies for (slightly) hijacking the thread ::).
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I don't feel compelled to get a GPS, I have completed many a road tour without the need for one, and can only think of one occasion when I wished I had one - I backed out of doing an off-road circuit whilst in the Sierra Morena (Spain) simply because the route provided in a book-route simply didn't add up, and if anyone knows the Sierra Morena, it is a true wilderness.
Paper maps have otherwise always been sufficient and my sense of direction and intuition is pretty good - I have never cycled more than a couple of km before realising a route error, even in the most remote of locations.
However - the thought of being able to enjoy rides on unfamiliar countryside circuits without the need to stop is a v strong incentive - the thought of being able to capture data and not have to record it at the end of a strenuous day while touring equally so. Am assuming that above mentioned satnavs will store the cumulative detail of say a two week tour which can then be downloaded to computer with related performance stats?
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Hi
I use iPhone running GPS motion X, Son dynamo, charging through Zzing. Always keeps phone fully charged even on stop start through town sort of ride. software let's you download city maps and will upload gps routes via email. I would say it knocks spots of Garmin which we previously used.
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Hi
I use iPhone running GPS motion X, Son dynamo, charging through Zzing. Always keeps phone fully charged even on stop start through town sort of ride. software let's you download city maps and will upload gps routes via email. I would say it knocks spots of Garmin which we previously used.
Sounds like a plug from an employee? Iphone wouldn't be much use in Holland unless you want to pay £50 a day download charges (at a guess, Dutch contract holders excepted)?
Thanks also Blair for the tip about the E-Werk Charger, looks useful and waterproof too, something which the Zzing isn't.
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Hi Fred
No not a plug from an employee, just a keen RST rider who spent just as long finding the right navigation tool, as he did his bike. Iphone uses GPS same as Garmin did, so no download charges. But maps are much clearer and scroll, zoom a lot faster. It works for us, even though I still enjoy sitting at home planning a ride on a good old fashioned map.
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Apologies for my misjudgement Jack, and welcome to the forum. Do you have to have internet on with Iphone for the satnav to work? Would seriously consider this if it worked abroad without incurring the charges.
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Hi Fred
No you don't need Internet, but you need IPhone 3GS or later, which has GPS. I mentioned the Zzing because without charging, phone battery lasts under 2hours making it a pretty useless solution.
Jack
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Cheers Jack, I have 3GS, Dynohub and RST, so am happy to part with £0.59 on the basis that if it's as good as you suggest (opinion divided according to reviews, but some like you suggest that this is even better than having a Garmin), this really would be a solution worthy of the ultimate investment of a Dynohub charger.
Thanks
fred
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The smartphone gps route looks to be a good one providing you can get a good power supply and ensure it stays dry. I'm still dithering about buying a new gps or using a phone but leaning toward a phone with offline maps.
Does anyone have experience of the dahon reecharge? It looks half the price of the B+M eworks and gives a usb output via a battery buffer.
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Seemingly some disappointing reviews ref Recharge - the E-Werks definitely seems to set the standard in terms of performance and, unfortunately, price.
http://www.bikeforums.net/archive/index.php/t-642039.html
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I have an IPhone with various apps that allow sat nav with the phone. Also have an e-werk which I use to charge whilst on the bike. The iPhone needs a constant charge to work so you will need the battery that attaches to the e-werk so the e-werk charges the battery and at the same time the battery provides a constant charge to the iPhone. My understanding is that when using the iPhone abroad if it uses Googlemaps or the equivalent, then you do incur quite high charges - certainly on my trip to Spain I did!
You need a waterproof cover for the phone as it won't last long without one. Also without dynamo power the phone gives up aft a few hours.
I have used a Garmin csx60 in the past as it can run on aa batteries and is good for navigating but now my preferred sat nav is the Garmin edge 800.
It gives a wealth of cycle specific data but is also very good from a navigation point of view. I already had a micro sd card with European maps on (used in my gsx60) so I got the bundle with OS maps, but have put the Euro map sd in it. It gives turn by turn navigation and recalculates if you go off route. I have used Tom Tom, Co-Pilot and Garmin routing in the past and do prefer the Garmin for poi and finding hotels etc..
The size of the Edge 800 is great off the bike the touch screen (works well) is big enough for navigating.
The battery life is good - I get about 10 hours but haven't tweaked the settings to maximise this.
It charges via the E-werk and with the new firmware enables to charge and use at the same time - unbelievably the original unit didn't allow this until the new firmware.
On tour I use the e-werk so battery life is not an issue anyway and it is simple to plug in a destination and go - you only need to download a route if you want to follow a specific plan. I normally leave it to find the best cycle friendly route. I do also get maps of where I'm cycling as I like looking at them to give an overall impression of the route but, in truth, I am hopeless at navigating with them once I have gone wrong at a turning etc.. hence the sat navs!
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Steve, presumably you are happy with the E-werks by the sounds of things? Ref the Iphone, I'm inclined to agree with Jack that the Sat Nav function for 3GS and beyond, depending on which app you get, circumvents the need to have internet downloads which incurr the costs abroad. In any case, I'm about to put it to the test and will report back.
I'm thinking I'll almost certainly invest in E-Werks regardless of which route I go - the freedom of being untethered from the demands and practicalities of recharging equipment on tour sounds great though I'd agree with comments about paper maps. I wouldn't go without them and sitting down and just looking at them at the outset to anticipate and plan the adventure ahead, is IMO, has always been one of life's more gratifying experiences.
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Yes, I'm very happy with the E-werk. There are more wires coming from the hub but it's a small price to pay. The black o-ring bands that
hold it on the bike were lost within a few weeks but normal rubber bands work just as well. As long as you know, or can find out, the V and amp rating of your device (and remember to change it on the E-werk) it's very simple. My Garmin csx60 was ok without the cache battery but did give the message 'lost external power' as soon as I stopped, which dissappeared when I started cycling again (if the AA batteries were low). What I like about the cache battery is that it keeps the gps running whilst on the bike but can also use the power built up on it to charge another device (iphone, ipod etc.. ) when off the bike or in the tent.
Re the iphone, I do have a 3gs version. I think that abroad, as I was using the map app to find out where I was etc.. it treats this as data - each new view of the area of the map is transferred to the phone as it is not stored internally. If the app you may be using comes with maps maybe the charges will be different - hope so.
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I use a Garmin GPSMap 60. 2 cheap AA-batteries last 12 hours.
I've got a Garmin topo-map of Denmark when touring. Topo maps are very detailed with contours and even the smallest footpaths.
I think there are topo-maps for most EU-countries now, but they are around £70.
I've heard that hacked Garmin maps have been found floating in the Pirate Bay, but I'd never even consider that.
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Re the iphone, I do have a 3gs version. I think that abroad, as I was using the map app to find out where I was etc.. it treats this as data - each new view of the area of the map is transferred to the phone as it is not stored internally. If the app you may be using comes with maps maybe the charges will be different - hope so.
Can you rig the E-Werk and lights simultaneously? I'm guessing not.
I think Jack's suggestion of the Motion GPS X gets around this by allowing you to dowload maps first so you don't have to have this as download data abroad - from what I can tell the level of detail is pretty impressive, certainly with urban maps, you can even see house numbers if you care to zoom in sufficiently, having selected sufficient detail in the first instance - and whilst strolling around Cambridge at the w/end, it kept track of our route pretty well. I appreciate that it probably doesn't have O/S standard maps or the same level of functionality as a Garmin but does track altiltude and seems to do the basics well, but have yet to test on the bike or in countryside.
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Yes you can run the E-werk and lights together. I currently have a Schmidt Edelux with a B&M Rear dynamo light. The Edelux is connected to the hub with piggy back spade connectors (Maplin). From these piggy back connectors you can connect the E-werk - there is enough power to run both lights and E-werk. When not using the E-werk, I tried connecting a Supernova E3 Triple (upgrade) to the hub so that 3 lights were being run from the hub (2 front, 1 rear). This kinda worked - the Edelux and rear were fine but the Supernova only powered up 1 of the 3 LEDs. It might be that I wasn't going fast enough but peering over to see how many LEDs are on is precarious at the best of times!
I wouldn't normally run with this setup at the Edelux is powerful enough on it's own but couldn't resist to see if it worked.
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Cheers Steve, I run Supernova E3 on front and rear - good to know that I'd be able to set this up without having to unplug lights.
Tried the Iphone/GPS Motion X today - it did a reasonable job of tracking my route to and from work and providing a host of related stats. The distance certainly tallies with my Cateye and assume therefore that ascend, descent and graph displaying speeds at various stages of the route also are. It occassionally suggested that I had cut corners by cycling through solid buildings, but seemed but a minor abberation and I have nothing to compare it to! Will disable internet dowloads next time to confirm that it does work in this mode.
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I have been a happy user of a GPS-equipped Nokia (any Nokia with a Symbian these days) for years with three programs, neither needing an active GPRS/3G connection, all free I hasten to add. Nokia E52 is small and is said to have a very good battery (will certainly last a day of cycling with the below programs running). I use an old E71.
1. Sports Tracker, possibly linked to heartbelt via bluetooth - tracking, maps, altitude charts and such. An example here: http://www.sports-tracker.com/#/workout/Mateusz/7a14p8mk6oqdj3e0
2. Ovi Maps for navigation (you can download maps at home for use offline in the field)
3. Trekbuddy - for OS maps (if you can find them)
All three can run simultaneously, so switching between them is not a problem.
It is also worth synchronising clocks on your mobile and camera for geotagging pictures later on, unless you use an N9 with a very decent camera on its own.