Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: diliff on February 09, 2011, 10:36:54 AM
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Hi guys,
I noticed that there was already a thread on kickstands, but it didn't seem to really go anywhere, so I thought I might try again.
Let me start by saying that I'm aware that fitting a kickstand invalidates the frame warranty, but has anyone gone and fitted one anyway? I find that I really miss having one and if others have been able to use one successfully and without breaking the frame, I'm tempted to go ahead and try. I've got a Thorn Raven Tour. Either single or double legged kickstands would be useful.
I was wondering if inserting some hard rubber between the chainstays and the kickstand plate might minimise the chance of the chainstays being crushed? It would have to be tough rubber, and sticky enough that it didn't shift under a bit of load, I'd imagine.
Any personal experiences or suggestions welcome.
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I don't think that it is all kickstands, only the ones clamped under the bottom bracket. I have an ESGE which fits the rear stays and works great.
Bob
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Where does it say that fitting a stand invalidates the frame warranty, I don't recall seeing it and Thorn fitted a Hebie centre stand to my Raven before I took delivery. I hope I'm not missing something! I guess some may think of them as a bit naff and a waste of weight but I like not having to lean my bike against something or lie it down.
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We ordered our 2 thorn nomads last week :) and was advised by the sales rep not to go for the kick stand as it would invalidate the frame warranty - due to possibility of rust entering the frame through the drill holes. Not sure how much is scaremongering or something to be concerned about - shame as quite like the idea of not having to lean up against a wall all the time.
Thinking about the click stands that other people seem to recommend but not sure how much I'd use it as seems a bit of pain to assemble each time.
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I use a clickstand and it works superbly - I hold it by one end, drop the rest and the elastic cord (the same sort of stuff that is used in fleeces, ruck sacks etc.) does the rest. It is a one handed job which is handy. This may be because it is well used though.
I know i've never thought "bloody thing", and would certainly get another one should this one ever fail. When it's folded up its sits on my rack between bungees.
Combined with the brake lever elastic jobs, the bike is as solid as a rock - i really do use it every time i either go out on the thing or i'm doing some rare maintenance.
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Where does it say that fitting a stand invalidates the frame warranty, I don't recall seeing it and Thorn fitted a Hebie centre stand to my Raven before I took delivery. I hope I'm not missing something! I guess some may think of them as a bit naff and a waste of weight but I like not having to lean my bike against something or lie it down.
Good to know.. How is the Hebie centre stand working out for you? Have you tried using it with a decent touring load? Does it seem to hold it steady? If you have a photo of it I'd love to see it.
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I wouldn't be without it, though I've never had the bike fully loaded and don't think it's of a type that would remain stable under those conditions. However, under normal circumstances it has been faultless. Sorry no pic's at the moment.
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Another vote for the Click-Stand, http://www.click-stand.com/ (http://www.click-stand.com/).
Works very nicely on my Raven Tour.
Simon.
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We ordered our 2 thorn nomads last week :) and was advised by the sales rep not to go for the kick stand as it would invalidate the frame warranty - due to possibility of rust entering the frame through the drill holes.
What drill holes :o ???
I would definitely not fit any stand that involved drilling holes in my frame. I have been using a rear-mounted kickstand for the past 7-8 years on my bike. The new Thorn Nomad now has a rear-mounted Pletscher stand, very nice to keep my bike standing happily virtually anywhere, even when fully loaded with camping gear or shopping.
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When I purchased my Raven Nomad (16 Months ago) I specifically asked about kickstands. The below was my question and the reply:
ME: Is there any kickstands that are acceptable on the Raven Nomad - I've read a few comments around that suggest that they may void warranty?
THORN: if the frame fails in the region where the stand is fiited then yes, warranty is void. The bike may fall over when the stand is in use and this may damage the frame. If you really want one then we recommend http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/product-Hebie-Hebie-Bipod-Steel-Centre-Stand-0605-HBP1--Black-18779.htm
I use a Click-Stand.
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Another happy Click-Stand user here, it's a wonderful thing!
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+1 on Click-Stand for me; exceeds all expectations and Tom Nostrant is a great guy to deal with. You can't go wrong. When the thing arrives, it looks like Christmas, all done up with a (metaphorical) bow. Handmade and a class-act in presentation and finish. Best of all? It cut solo-loading of my touring bike from a 20-minute operation to only 5, all-up. Can't beat it for daybreak starts. Besides, it lets me rig my clothesline between bike and tent or rig the tent sans stakes, using the bike at one end and a pannier as deadman at the other. It is extremely stable, even with a full touring load. Best thing I can say is I wish I'd thought of it and executed it as well.
Best,
Dan.
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Another thumbsup for the Click Stand. I broke my first one, used it on very soft turf and it sunk in, snapping 1 section. When I asked Tom for a replacement section he sent me an entire new stand, _free_, and a wider rubber foot.
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If you really want a kickstand but are worried about frame damage, then the click-stand is a good substitute. But they can break if misused, as the prior post notes, even the heavier max version. Assuming you use the center-bracket mount attached to water-bottle bosses, removing the click-stand from the bracket and setting it up takes under 5 seconds, and similar for stowing it away again, so it's almost as convenient as a kick-stand. The brake-bands supplied with the click-stand are flimsy. In particular, the plastic gizmo (zipper tab) tends to pull open. I replaced with 3/16" shock-cord (heavier than the click-stand brake bands, which are 1/8" shock-cord) tied into a loop with a fisherman's knot.
After playing around with a click-stand max for a while, I decided that both it and regular kick-stands are a bad idea, because of the damage that can be done to a bike if it falls. Also, neither the click-stand nor kick-stands will work in soft ground, regardless of how fat a rubber foot you put on the end, and soft ground is all that is available to me when away from civilization. Simpler, safer and saves on weight to just lay the bike down on the ground if I can't find something secure to lean it against.
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I have found the Click-Stand needs only an available rock to keep it from sinking in soft soil. Lacking that, almost any object can be put to use to spread the pressure of the tip to prevent sinking. I have sometimes kept the lid from an aluminum can in my handlebar bag for that purpose, and it has worked well on the rare occasions when nothing native was present.
Having always laid the bike on its side in the past, it is surely nice to no longer have to. Saves wear and tear on the bags and keeps the lot much cleaner and more waterproof in my experience.
Best,
Dan.
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Even if you can get the click-stand to stay up in soft ground by putting a rock under it, the bike can still blow over from a sudden gust of wind. That is what happened to me, several times, which is why I gave up on the click-stand. Same reason why I wouldn't use kick-stands either, even if frame damage wasn't an issue. The damage from carefully laying the bike down is trivial compared to what can happen if it falls down.
[Edit:] I may still bring the click-stand along on tours, in order to support the bike while cleaning or doing maintenance in the middle of a motel parking lot so that I couldn't lean it against anything. After all, I bought the click-stand and it only weighs 100g. But I wouldn't trust the click-stand or a kick-stand to support the bike unless I was standing right there to catch the bike if it started to fall due to wind.
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Been using a Greenfields stay-mounted kickstand for about 7 years and now the ESGE Pletscher Multi-zoom for the past year. I have had no concerns with the bike falling (so long as I am observant about the ground I place it on). I would ONLY advocate rear-mounted stands.
I have seen far more damage to bikes (including loaded and unloaded tourers) from the 'slip-and-slide' when they invariably get leaned on a post somewhere and roll around - *Ouch* for the top tube paintwork :(
When I've seen my bike standing upright, in all sorts of locales, and left overnight at campsites, I have a great deal of confidence in the stand's security.
(http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/49552/2807438260074746151S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2807438260074746151hrJMek)
(http://inlinethumb09.webshots.com/28104/2140601730074746151S600x600Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2140601730074746151pHVBCn)
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I have seen far more damage to bikes (including loaded and unloaded tourers) from the 'slip-and-slide' when they invariably get leaned on a post somewhere and roll around - *Ouch* for the top tube paintwork :(
Been there, done that, some years ago ... very careful leaning against posts ever since
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Been there, done that, some years ago ... very careful leaning against posts ever since
You need to use a brake band if this is happening. The click-stand comes with brake-bands. Or make your own from 3/16" shock-cord from a fabric store, as shown below. If you have a bar mounted mirror, then the brake band should stay in place on that side of the handlebar when not in use. Otherwise, it might have a tendency to fall off, depending on what type grips/bar-ends you use. And there are other ways to activate the brakes than brake bands.
If you're camped in forest, then wind is normally not a problem. But gusts of 50mph can easily whip up during the night on open plains like in the picture above, and knock over a bike held up by a kickstand. Better hope the bike doesn't fall on the derailleur side, or better be prepared to repair/replace your derailleur hanger if it does.
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Pete,
'Just an aside amidst the kickstand discussion...
I surely have enjoyed your tour photos, and return again and again to see them. What a great job!
Best,
Dan.
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But gusts of 50mph can easily whip up during the night on open plains like in the picture above, and knock over a bike held up by a kickstand. Better hope the bike doesn't fall on the derailleur side, or better be prepared to repair/replace your derailleur hanger if it does.
Never been an issue of any significance for me, in the past 7-8 years of using the kickstand ???
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I surely have enjoyed your tour photos, and return again and again to see them. What a great job!
Thanks for the compliment, Dan
Cheers
Pete
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Quote from: revelo on January 28, 2012, 06:30:11 PM
But gusts of 50mph can easily whip up during the night on open plains like in the picture above, and knock over a bike held up by a kickstand. Better hope the bike doesn't fall on the derailleur side, or better be prepared to repair/replace your derailleur hanger if it does.
Quote from: il padrone on January 28, 2012, 06:30:11 PM
Never been an issue of any significance for me, in the past 7-8 years of using the kickstand
Nor for me, in my much briefer use of a Click-stand. I usually put more lean on the stand than Tom Nostrant recommends, placing it so the pedal on that side just clears or nearly clears the Click-stand when the crank is rotated, and I turn the front wheel in the direction of the stand, which seems to aid stability for me.
I was initially cautious and concerned about blow-over or toppling from other means, but I have found that just adding additional lean allowed the bike to remain stable when parked fully loaded in wind gusts of that speed a week or two ago. I parked with the stand on the leeward (left) side of the bike so a broken Click-stand or blow-over wouldn't endanger the derailleur hanger. I respect and can relate to your concerns, Frank, and don't deny or invalidate your experience. Just wondering...did you try the Click-stand with some considerable additional lean in windy conditions? Might it have been a bit too vertical for the conditions? Perhaps the wind was just too strong and gusty and the soil too soft, making the Click-stand impractical for the conditions. I can see the panniers acting as a bit of a sail in high winds or conversely, the unladen bike might be light enough to topple if too upright. Can you tell us a little more about what things were like when your bike fell? It might help others avoid the problem.
'Just hoping you can have a good Click-stand experience like mine, though I understand your concerns and would definitely choose to lay my bike down in the 70mph ice-pellet winds I experienced camping in my last desert tour. Everyone is different and the same product may not give the same results, depending.
With regard to brake bands, yours are a good heavy-duty solution. I have had good luck so far with the originals provided I carefully placed the bungee in the pull and then squashed them fully shut so the interlocking edges of the pull were fully engaged. It is possible to catch a bit of bungee in between and it can be hard to see. Anyway, yours have solved the problem, so good. I used to use a small piece of tethered, machined aluminum as a block to wedge the brake lever open. Later, it was replaced with a plastic Blackburn Stop-Block that unfortunately won't engage my Tektro RL520 levers. On my rando bike, I have a quick-release on the cantilever brake straddle cable that works normally and one on the headset cable stop that works in reverse, to operate as a parking brake. It baffles anyone who tries to wheel the bike away, as everything appears normal except the front wheel is locked. On the tandem, I lock the Arai drum brake using a bar-con lever and that does a dandy job of keeping the bike in place.
Best wishes,
Dan.
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For a parking brake strap, I've been using one of these on the brakes. The toe-strap is an original from my old 1980 Cecil Walker road bike (still in action as my Audax bike):
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5314/5912921301_72a21c6275.jpg)
On our tours we often use the metropolitan trains, where such a strap keeps the bike stable; and also travel on country trains, loading bikes in the luggage vans. Their springing is very rough so a parking band together with an ockie strap (bungee) to secure the loaded bikes to the wall is essential.