Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: kingoftheworld on October 01, 2009, 02:06:34 PM
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Dear all,
My first post so be gentle with me :D
Basically, I thought before I phone Thorn directly & get a friendly, but maybe some what biased opinion
I would ask the group here.I have already spent months combing the web, viewing bikes from all over
Europe (most being good Dutch & German Company's) but I really keep coming back to Thorn. I was close
to going for the Nomad with all the trimmings, I then noticed (not easy to find) the EXP R which (I think)
would suit me better as I want a "sportier" lighter bike (?) that can still handle 20kg of weight (don't want to carry more)
But I won't be cycling Argentina or Chile on dirt tracks.
On the other hand I don't really need a double lifetime guarantee not even one lifetime (30 years will do) I'm 46 :D
I'll post more on the spec I would be interested in, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling with this post first.
Appreciate your thoughts, feed back
Cheers
Greetings from Vienna Austria.
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but maybe some what biased opinion
What us .....Never ;)
Just to muddy the waters a little more have you considered the Raven Sport Tour (RST). Now I am very biased when it comes the RST but to my mind, if you are not looking to carry more than 20kg, it might be just the bike you are looking for. The RST is substantially lighter than the Nomad. It is also a lot more 'athletic'.
Having said that the if money was no objects they I would be very tempted to trade my RST for an EXP R
Stutho
PS welcome to the list
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When I got my Raven Tour Thorn was an obvious choice. They were very competetively priced (3 1/2 years ago) but now they seem very expensive.
The RST is from (ie. starting price, with no pedals, pump, racks and so on) £2099.
The RT is from £1699 (it was from £1099 when I got mine).
Recently I ordered a new fast tourer/Audax bike. My first choice was the Audax Mk3 but I got a shock when I checked the latest price. It's £1699 in the spec I want. I got a Condor Fratello in the end for £1299 in same spec.
I think Thorn sell great bikes but no longer great-value bikes.
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Dear all,
My first post so be gentle with me :D
Basically, I thought before I phone Thorn directly & get a friendly, but maybe some what biased opinion
I would ask the group here.I have already spent months combing the web, viewing bikes from all over
Europe (most being good Dutch & German Company's) but I really keep coming back to Thorn. I was close
to going for the Nomad with all the trimmings, I then noticed (not easy to find) the EXP R which (I think)
would suit me better as I want a "sportier" lighter bike (?) that can still handle 20kg of weight (don't want to carry more)
But I won't be cycling Argentina or Chile on dirt tracks.
On the other hand I don't really need a double lifetime guarantee not even one lifetime (30 years will do) I'm 46 :D
I'll post more on the spec I would be interested in, but I thought I'd get the ball rolling with this post first.
Appreciate your thoughts, feed back
Cheers
Greetings from Vienna Austria.
Do you really want a Rohloff? If you don't a Thorn Sherpa can handle 20kgs/40lbs of gear just fine, it's cheaper, lighter and can be had with drop bars. You can fit it with a Rohloff if you use a chain tensioner....it will work and I have that setup on one of my bikes, but if I was getting another Rohloff bike I'd want one designed specifically for this hub.
safe riding,
Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
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:)Hello
Good choice would be a Sherpa. Best value best ride and well worth the cost whichever spec you decide. I have 2 Club Tours, a Sherpa and a Audax 853.
My favourite bike the one I would keep if I had to get rid of three? The Sherpa!
Good Luck.
John.
www.
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Hi Guys,
Thanks for the great feed back so far. A quick answer round
Stutho, freddered, Money is certainly an issue, but the good old pound has taken such a bashing that me & my € gives me more
spending power than I used to have when buying in the UK. If you compare Thorn to , Koga Miyata, Santos, tout terrain, cannondale
then price wise there all around the same but I think (hope) I am getting a lot more bike for my money.
Vik, your site is fantastic, I have spent hours reading up on your blogs & passions. I like you way of life , but you really should buy a sofa ;)
I never expected that YOU of all people would steer (pardon my pun) me away from a Rohlhof! I fly a lot & bag my bike, my gears usually
always take a bashing. Although I am a geek & love technology I am useless & am petrified everytime I have to play around with anything
mechanical on my bike especially my shimano gears ??? I hope & pray that apart from the occasional oil change, my rohlhof will run & run & run.
My plan is to take a year off in 2011 & cycle around Europe & the East, who knows maybe even as far as Australia. So I will need a durable bike
with the S&S set up, I do like it, anybody against it ? Could someone here maybe also tell me (couldn't find that out from the specs) what the EXP R weighs ?
I think that the Sherpa is a little too light weight for such a tour ?
Keep on cycling
Simon
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Vik, your site is fantastic, I have spent hours reading up on your blogs & passions. I like you way of life , but you really should buy a sofa ;)
I never expected that YOU of all people would steer (pardon my pun) me away from a Rohlhof! I fly a lot & bag my bike, my gears usually
always take a bashing. Although I am a geek & love technology I am useless & am petrified everytime I have to play around with anything
mechanical on my bike especially my shimano gears ??? I hope & pray that apart from the occasional oil change, my rohlhof will run & run & run.
Thanks for the kind words... :) I wouldn't try and convince you not to get a Rohloff, but at the same time I wouldn't assume it's the right solution for everyone. It is less likely to get damaged in transit or to need attention than a derailleur bike.
My plan is to take a year off in 2011 & cycle around Europe & the East, who knows maybe even as far as Australia. So I will need a durable bike
with the S&S set up, I do like it, anybody against it ?
Well to be honest if you aren't stoked about dealing with derailleurs when you travel I cannot imagine you'll be happy to tear down a bike with S&S couplers enough to fit it into a suitcase - presumably a suitcase you won't even have with you if you are taking multiple flights on your trip. Have a look at a photo of a Nomad S&S in a suitcase and look at all the disassembly you need to do and then rebuilding the bike at the other end.
Personally I cannot imagine ever being that motivated that I'd use my S&S couplers to put a bike in a suitcase.
Having said that I do think they are great for quickly making your bike smaller. You can break it in half with minimal hassle and then package it in a cardboard box for a flight. You can also break it into two and easily fit it into a car or bus.
If I could have bought the same frame as the Nomad S&S without the S&S I would have bought it and saved myself a significant amount of money.
Now that I have an S&S bike I'll use the feature, but I don't see it as vital.
I think that the Sherpa is a little too light weight for such a tour ?
If your gear is going to weigh 20kgs or 40lbs the Sherpa can easily handle that, but if you want a Rohloff I'd skip the Sherpa and look at one of Thorn's dedicated Rohloff frames.
safe riding,
Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
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You said...........
I think that the Sherpa is a little too light weight for such a tour ?
I say-rubbish! Its built like a tank.
John.
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I think the Sherpa is more capable than a RST as a pure load-lugger.
If money isn't an issue I would go for a Rohloff model every time.
Having seen S&S couplings in action (including a 3-section tandem) I would have them fitted (if money was no object). They give you another option should you ever need to get your bike into a vehicle.
It took me several years to choose my Thorn but I'm glad I chose one (RT). For 3 years it was my only road bike. Now I have some quicker, lighter, bikes I tend to use on my Audax rides and the Raven Tour gets used mainly in bad weather (when I absolutely don't want to get stranded).
It always surprises me how smooth it feels. No chain-lash and no real need to avoid potholes.
Having just spent several evenings trying to get a derailleur set-up to stop rattling and change slickly I really appreciate the fit & forget Rohloff.
Don't forget to post pictures.
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:) I have 2 Club Tours, a Sherpa and a Audax 853.
My favourite bike the one I would keep if I had to get rid of three? The Sherpa!
Sorry to go off on a tangent to the original thread here but John, you seem an ideal chap to sound out to aid me in my own dilemma.
According to Thorn of old the best 'all rounder' was the XTC which was billed as being sporty as well as being able to cope with summer camping gear. I commute 8 miles to work on potholed urban streets on my venerable (?20y+) Dawes Galaxy & am keen for its replacement to 'do it all' ie still be pretty quick but needs to be more stable, cope with a full ortlieb office bag & second pannier for personal gear, not shake my bones to bits over potholes, and also to head off for summer camping tours with front and back bags.
I thought long and hard about the XTC but it's not made now & e-bay prices are £800+ second hand so I've been thinking about the Club Tour & the Sherpa as alternatives. Which of these would you go for in my position and what is it about the Sherpa that trumps the Club Tour?
Many thanks & apologies for thread hijacking
Andrew
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Hi Kingoftheworld,
I've just returned from a one month cycling holiday in France and Belgium with a S & s equipped RST.
On and off the plane, train, taxi,etc...a pleasure with the standard S & s soft backpack.
On my return I managed to stuff 30kg of gear in the bag (Emirates airlines has a 30kg allowance) !
I did the major Cols in the Pyrenees (some 19km long ) and most of the Tour van Vlaanderen climbs (the hardest being the Koppenberg with a 22% section); all cycling, no walking.
I own several bikes with derailleurs (Shimano and Campagnolo) and did part of the riding alongside some of the lightest and most expensive bikes on the market and my conclusion is that the RST + S & S combination was the best.
I almost forgot: in one day we did Aubisque, Soulor, Tourmalet and Aspin; a long day with lots of sweat but no pain thanks to the Brooks B17 Champion saddle.
My bike was equipped with drop handlebars with the shifter on the flat section.
An RST is even strong enough for Flemish cobblestones and Australian unsealed gravel roads; no need to go heavier...unless you're going for a two year round the world trip.
Light and fast is so much more enjoyable for daily use.
Bike number four is being built right now: Columbus XCr, S & S couplings,Nitto drop handlebars,700c wheels,Gilles Berthould leather saddle and, of course, a Rohloff hub.
I agree that Thorn bikes are becoming rather expensive; the freight charges to Australia are ridiculous.
Have fun...
Arnaud
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Hi Guys,
Well I must admit it seems that RST with S&S could be a nice option.
I could splash out on all types of added goodies & still have money to spare
compared to buying a Rohlhof EXPR.
As I am also not sure what frame set up, colour etc I should go for, I think the
best bet is to make an appointment & let them take me through it.
I'll be over for X-mas, I can order it then, pick it up in March-April &
cycle back home though France, Germany & Switzerland. Life is tough ;D
All the best & thanks for the feed back.
P.S Arnuad, I also cycled France in June this year. Strassbourg to Pamplona 1600km
16,000 altitude metres in total :P but oohh those chocholate eclairs, god I loved them
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Sorry to go off on a tangent to the original thread here but John, you seem an ideal chap to sound out to aid me in my own dilemma.
According to Thorn of old the best 'all rounder' was the XTC which was billed as being sporty as well as being able to cope with summer camping gear. I commute 8 miles to work on potholed urban streets on my venerable (?20y+) Dawes Galaxy & am keen for its replacement to 'do it all' ie still be pretty quick but needs to be more stable, cope with a full ortlieb office bag & second pannier for personal gear, not shake my bones to bits over potholes, and also to head off for summer camping tours with front and back bags.
I thought long and hard about the XTC but it's not made now & e-bay prices are £800+ second hand so I've been thinking about the Club Tour & the Sherpa as alternatives. Which of these would you go for in my position and what is it about the Sherpa that trumps the Club Tour?
Many thanks & apologies for thread hijacking
Andrew
Hello
I have two Club Tours and a Sherpa plus an Audax 853. The Club Tours are used as general riding bikes one for Summer one for Winter. Iuse the SHerpa for some days rides and Camping trips. The difference in my opinion as a user is that the Club Tours are a bit more lively whereas the Sherpa is a load carrier in feel and ride. The Sherpa is very comfortable more so in my opinion that the Club Tours. You would be happy with either however!
John.
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Hi Kingoftheworld,
i had a similar dilemma when ordering my bike a couple of months ago. You may find interesting some of the reflections adn comments on my post
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2040.0 (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=2040.0)
I chose RST finally, and am really happy with my choice. It offers the perfect combination of agility and lightweight touring capability. (I am planning to write a longer appraisal on my post soon) I suppose it depends somewhat on your own weight, but it should do 20kg of luggage easily.
If you are planning to tour only in west and east Europe, I would think that RST is the best chocie for you. However, if you are planning to go all the way to Australia, then get an RT.
EXP R would be great, and I was thinking about it a lot too. But in the end, it's the same bike built in UK instead of Taiwan (by equally skilled craftsmen...), with better finishing and more choice of colour. The frame is a bit sturdier than RST, and SJSC told me it weighs aroudn 200g more..
I would rather invest the money in the best available components...
S&S coupling would have been a great upgrade, but I don't bring my bike on the plane that much, and I was afraid that in NYC it would just be easier to steal it can be unscrewed in two parts... If you leave your bike in an urban area, I would not get S&S, otherwise you would need to have additional locks and chains...
After a day or two, I got accustomed to Rohloff, and I would really advise you to go for it. If you do opt for a derailer, you shouldn't worry about Sherpa - it is basically a derailer-equipped RT, capable of carrying 40kg on rough roads....
good luck
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Hi Tito,
Excellent post, with lots of good information, thanks. I never thought
about the S&S couplings being a robbers delight, although he
might have to read the manual before he figures out how to take the bike apart (smile)
I think I'll go over at x-mas & talk to them personally, but I am tending towards the
Nomad or Raven.
All the best
Keep on cycling
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S&S coupling would have been a great upgrade, but I don't bring my bike on the plane that much, and I was afraid that in NYC it would just be easier to steal it can be unscrewed in two parts... If you leave your bike in an urban area, I would not get S&S, otherwise you would need to have additional locks and chains...
It's highly unlikely a bike thief would:
1) know what a S&S coupling was given their rarity
2) have the appropriate specialized tool on hand to open one
3) want only the front half of your bike only since you were clever and locked through the rear triangle to a rack or post.
Safe riding,
Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
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regarding the "appropriate specialized tool" - any adjustable pliers can be used to open an S&S coupling.
But Vik is right, I am probably a little paranoid.
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I shop by bike in an area where anything left loose is stolen within 10 minutes.
My S&S equipped Thorn has never been touched, locked through the rear triangle and with Pitlock skewers though.
I had difficulty using the specialised spanner to take mine to bits recently, so tight were the couplings.
I think the average thief has little idea what these couplings are for and would struggle to dismantle a bike equipped with them.
If you are really worried then you can always insure your bike for loss/theft.
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Hi, First post and I am finding the site very helpfull having read a lot in here before posting
This interests me greatly as I had looked at the ss raven but realised as I would not often be using the plane the ss couplings would be an added expense that I wouldn't need.
I like the idea of the rohloff but like some have mentioned I need to use what I know and the normal gears I'm okay with also the mention of weight has raised my ears. I saw the mention of 30 kg carry load and would ask for some clarification.
I intend to go on long trips that would be the full load needed, tent,stove clothes,sleeping bag etc and given I am 18 stone the mention of weight is quite important to me. I also noticed that whilst mentioning the 30 kg limit the thorn expedition rear rack states 60kg with 6mm bolts so the contradiction is puzzling to me
Thorns are never going to be cheap but when I do spend I want it to be right and long term. I had intended to buy a Sherpa world tour drop spec but am now worried about the combined personal and equipment weight
Any perspectives/experiences would be greatly received
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Hi, welcome to the forum.
I think you will find that the expedition capable Thorn bikes will take you and the load you need to carry.
The custom versions with 853 tubes will take even more than the standard cr-mo frames. Thorn put 50kg and 40 kg respectively in their brochure/advert. The 6mm rack bolts will be a lot stronger than 5mm ones if you are riding on rough surfaces.
If you spread the load front and back the bikes ride very stably.
Why not phone/e-mail Thorn and have a chat to one of the experts about what you need.
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I like the idea of the rohloff but like some have mentioned I need to use what I know and the normal gears I'm okay with also the mention of weight has raised my ears. I saw the mention of 30 kg carry load and would ask for some clarification.
For your use I'd suggest that rohloff weight is really not an issue. A rohloff is comparable in weight to most mid-range derailleur systems but probably a few hundred grams greater than some of the better ones. If you have a bike weighing 17kg, 30kg of luggage and 114 kg of rider, then even a pessimistic 400g extra for the rohloff is 0.2%. There are certainly reasons not to go rohloff, and cost is high on the list, but not weight on a touring bike.
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Thanks Julk/Geocycle for the welcome
Julk in the next few weeks I will be contacting Thorn/sjs direct, Geocycle sorry I must have written it wrongly I wasn't worried about the weight of a rohloff but more mine and my equipments weight.
As to the concern over the rohloff I read Thorns site and it emphasized that steel is best because it can be repaired anywhere in the world from a modern town to an outback village that's the reason I've excluded the rohloff, it can't be fixed anywhere but the conventional gears can. I've no doubt the rohloff is an excellent piece of kit but cost and world wide resources rule it out for me
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Thanks Julk/Geocycle for the welcome
As to the concern over the rohloff I read Thorns site and it emphasized that steel is best because it can be repaired anywhere in the world from a modern town to an outback village that's the reason I've excluded the rohloff, it can't be fixed anywhere but the conventional gears can. I've no doubt the rohloff is an excellent piece of kit but cost and world wide resources rule it out for me
That is a rationale argument and should I ever be in that position is one I would have to think carefully about. You have to way up the very low risk of anything going wrong with the potentially more difficult task of making a repair. If I were to take that kind of trip I'd make sure I could rebuild a rohloff wheel. After having mine for 3 years without a squeak I now have enough confidence in the rohloff to take that risk, but I fully take your point.
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Hello
Personal view of a past owner of a Raven Tour. I did not like the bar setup (MTB) or the hub but it is a personal thing as I prefer deraileurs.
Regarding the weight with a Rohloff. Numerous riders of solos and tandems (even heavier with two onboard) jave now ridden round the World. Minor niggles with the odd broken spoke is all that appears after a great deal of searching.
John.
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As to the concern over the rohloff I read Thorns site and it emphasized that steel is best because it can be repaired anywhere in the world from a modern town to an outback village that's the reason I've excluded the rohloff, it can't be fixed anywhere but the conventional gears can. I've no doubt the rohloff is an excellent piece of kit but cost and world wide resources rule it out for me
Your logic about the Rohloff vs. derailleurs is not quite right.
First off you have to compare the likelihood of needing to repair a derailleur drive train vs. the need to repair a Rohloff hub. Having toured with both and done lots of research about how Rohloffs can fail and how many fail I can say that the advantage goes to the Rohloff by a landslide.
Second you have to consider how likely is it that you are going to get spare derailleur parts anywhere in the world as you suggest above? Certainly in any reasonably sized first world city you would. But if you tour in the more remote spots of North America or Europe there are no full service bike shops to provide you with an XT derailleur when you rip yours off. If you start looking at Africa, India, remote parts of South America spare parts are not abundant. The more remote and far flung your bike tour the more likely you'll find no bike parts available at all. That certainly favours components that are very unlikely to fail rather than ones that fail a lot more often.
The other thing to consider is a lot of the places that have ready access to derailleur parts, such as moderate sized first world cities, also have access to international courier services so in the unlikely event you need something for your Rohloff a phone call and a day or two in a campground/motel will see it in your hands.
Having said all that I don't think Rohloff is the perfect answer for everyone or every tour. I own and use derailleur bikes as well as Shimano IGH bikes and a couple Rohloff rigs. There are pros and cons to each option.
I don't like touring in populated areas with lots of cities and my favourite tours are in remote areas - deserts, mountainous areas that have little to no services. So I'd much rather use a Rohloff that is very reliable than a derailleur drivetrain which has a lot of vulnerabilities because when I do rip my derailleur off there will be no place to get one from.
I should also point out that the Rohloff has three other really important benefits for the adventurous tourist:
1 - nearly immune to weather. I've ridden a Rohloff bike for days on dirt roads in the pouring rain with the drivetrain literally caked in mud. The difference between how it shifted and pedaled between day1 when it was clean and day 5 was zero - I literally couldn't tell the difference and I was too beat up at the end of each day to do any maintenance. Riding derailleur bikes in similar conditions I haven't gone 2hrs before they stopped shifting properly and I had to either try and clean them or just give up on some gears until I did some maintenance.
2 - because you aren't shifting the chain on a Rohloff you can get so much more mileage out of one before you need to do anything. And then you can turn the whole drivetrain around and wear it out in the other direction before replacing everything. So even if nothing breaks the maintenance cycle for a Rohloff is so much less than a derailleur drivetrain. If you are riding from Alaska to Ushuaia through lots of remote spots that's very important.
3 - the dishless rear Rohloff wheel is much stronger than a dished wheel and easier to maintain because spoke tension is equal. That solves one of the big problems of a deraileur touring bike where building a robust dished wheel is a problem. This is especially true if you are riding off paved roads where the abuse a heavily loaded rear wheel takes is 100 times worse.
safe riding,
Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
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Vik
Many many thanks. Of course your right and my experience of bicycling has always been with the standard gear set up and perhaps the rohloff is more of an unknown than a thing to be weary of. I had the same issue with my mac, I bought it and hate it so I'm aware of my limitations rather than rohloffs
the cost issue is a big issue. It's almost like buying a solar charger at $100 but then realising you could have bought countless batteries along your route and would have probably finished your trip well before you had spent the $100
Certianly I now feel I need to dig around much more and thanks for your reply
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Vik
Many many thanks. Of course your right and my experience of bicycling has always been with the standard gear set up and perhaps the rohloff is more of an unknown than a thing to be weary of. I had the same issue with my mac, I bought it and hate it so I'm aware of my limitations rather than rohloffs
the cost issue is a big issue. It's almost like buying a solar charger at $100 but then realising you could have bought countless batteries along your route and would have probably finished your trip well before you had spent the $100
Certianly I now feel I need to dig around much more and thanks for your reply
Sticking with what you know makes sense. Lot's of people tour using derailleurs so obviously it works fine.
If you want to consider a Rohloff I will just add two things to the mix to think about:
1 - if you are not happy with a Rohloff the resale value stays quite high due to the long service life of the hub. I believe Thorn offers a 100 day money back policy on their Rohloff bikes so you could get a good amount of test riding with little risk.
2 - if you look at the 100,000km+ service life of a Rohloff and the minimal maintenance costs the actual $/km cost of the hub is no more than a mid-level derailleur setup and if you ride enough kms you can certainly save money with a Rohloff. The downside is you have to pay the majority of the cost upfront with a Rohloff.
safe riding,
Vik
www.thelazyrando.com
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Again thanks Vik
I feel like I'm becoming one of those newbies that ask a lot of questions that have been asked before but still ask, apologies if that's the case.
At the momment the sherpa seems to fit my needs the best as Thorns own literature claims it to be own of the best load carrying bikes they make. I noticed they do not offer a rohloff as an option is this because of the drop bars option or is it just the rohloffs suit a specific frame like the ravens etc ?
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Hi,
The raven bikes are constructed with Rohloff specific rear dropouts, eccentric bottle bracket shell and cable guides to suit the double cable run to the hub gears.
They can be specified with drops or straight bars to the owners preference, although getting the rohloff gear changer to work with drop bars requires a compromise or two in my opinion.
The Raven equivalent to the Sherpa is probably the Nomad.
Julian.
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Thanks Julk that's cleared up something for me