Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: JC on April 29, 2008, 02:09:43 AM
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Hello all. I'm considering buying a Raven Nomad S&S, and since I won't be able to test ride I'm especially interested in the comments of those who own such a bike. I live in Australia and plan to use the bike for a mix of light and heavy touring. The S&S couplings appeal because they will allow me to carry the dissembled bike onto a train or perhaps even a plane at the end of a tour. Andy says they are undetectable in use. Is that your experience too? All comments appreciated. JC.
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JC,
I have an S&S coupled Rohloff eXp which is quite similar in frame shape to the Raven Nomad. My experience is that riding it unladen or with 30kgs load is a pleasure. The S&S couplings make no noticeable difference to the ride and are reckoned to be slightly stronger than the sections of frame which they replace!
The frame/bike splits in two very quickly for transport in the back of a car. Full dismantling into a case would take longer.
The Raven Nomad frame is very versatile, being set up capable of taking suspension front forks and a rear disc brake if you plan on heavy off-road touring.
Enjoy your new bike when you get it.
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Make sure you keep the couplings tight. Always carry the wrench and use the proper grease.
I haven't used mine for touring yet, but overall I'm quite happy with it.
I ordered mine with the thorn comfort bars, which I didn't like. I switched to trekking bars and that has made a huge difference, although just adding bar-ends to the comfort bars might have been enough, but handlebars are personal preference.
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I've got one. Rides very stable even under load. It's heavy though but then you would expect that for such a tough bike. S&S couplings are good and useful. As for suspension forks I quote Andy B's email to me:
The Nomad is not designed for suspension forks...you could fit some but the
bike's agility will be compromised.
when I queried this he replied
The fork on the Nomad is about 400mm long from spindle to crown seat...the
shortest 80mm travel MTB fork measures 450mm (the very expensive Fox RLC)
the more economical Magura Odur 85mm measures 463mm.
Lets assume 20mm sag...with you on board, the Odur would change the head
angle by 2.25 degrees, even if the fork offset could be altered to suit
(another 8mm rake should do it) such a change would give weird handling
(front wheel flop...good handling, up to the point where the front wheel
suddenly reaches a point where it really wants to fall in to the turn)
However the susspension forks have 8mm less offset than the ideal offset
(which is supplied with the bike) so the bikes really don't want to
turn...then they suddenly do...not nice.
Also the BB height will be raised by about 60% of the difference in fork
length.
Which I think is disappointing given that the Nomad appears to be sold with suspension forks as an option. I would consider buying a set if they worked.
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Make sure you keep the couplings tight. Always carry the wrench and use the proper grease.
I haven't used mine for touring yet, but overall I'm quite happy with it.
I ordered mine with the thorn comfort bars, which I didn't like. I switched to trekking bars and that has made a huge difference, although just adding bar-ends to the comfort bars might have been enough, but handlebars are personal preference.
Thanks for the advice, William. I had planned to fit trekking bars because they offer much greater variety in hand and riding position than the comfort bars. I'm surprised that Thorn doesn't offer the trekking bars as an option.
JC
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I've got one. Rides very stable even under load. It's heavy though but then you would expect that for such a tough bike. S&S couplings are good and useful. As for suspension forks I quote Andy B's email to me:
The Nomad is not designed for suspension forks...you could fit some but the
bike's agility will be compromised.
when I queried this he replied
The fork on the Nomad is about 400mm long from spindle to crown seat...the
shortest 80mm travel MTB fork measures 450mm (the very expensive Fox RLC)
the more economical Magura Odur 85mm measures 463mm.
Lets assume 20mm sag...with you on board, the Odur would change the head
angle by 2.25 degrees, even if the fork offset could be altered to suit
(another 8mm rake should do it) such a change would give weird handling
(front wheel flop...good handling, up to the point where the front wheel
suddenly reaches a point where it really wants to fall in to the turn)
However the susspension forks have 8mm less offset than the ideal offset
(which is supplied with the bike) so the bikes really don't want to
turn...then they suddenly do...not nice.
Also the BB height will be raised by about 60% of the difference in fork
length.
Which I think is disappointing given that the Nomad appears to be sold with suspension forks as an option. I would consider buying a set if they worked.
That is disappointing, OAB, because the potential for a suspension fork was a real incentive to go for the Nomad. Here in Australia dirt roads, and some rough dirt roads, are part of touring if you want to avoid the main routes. Perhaps Dave has had a rethink on Nomad suspension. Hopefully he might clarify the suitability of the suspension forks recommended for the Nomad.
Thanks, OAB, for your response.
JC
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I have the suspension fork on mine and nobody warned me off it.
I honestly admit I hadn't noticed anything strange about it maybe I am just inattentive.
Then again, I haven't ridden it loaded yet.
Maybe i should swap forks and see if I notice anything.
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I have the suspension fork on mine and nobody warned me off it.
I honestly admit I hadn't noticed anything strange about it maybe I am just inattentive.
Then again, I haven't ridden it loaded yet.
Maybe i should swap forks and see if I notice anything.
Excellent! Can you do a comparison and post it here?
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There is some conflicting info here!!!
One Arm Bandit - are you referring to the Raven Nomad or the older 'original' Nomad? According to the sales literature (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornRavenNomadBroLoRes.pdf) the Raven Nomad has a fork lenth of 450mm NOT 400mm. The sales literature (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornRavenNomadBroLoRes.pdf) also specifically mentions using Odur suspension forks.
I have a pair of Magura Odur (85mm) which I fit occasionally (to a RT) when the off-road bug grips me. I am NOT a mounting biker but the Odur do seam (to my limited experience) to be a very good buy.
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There is some conflicting info here!!!
One Arm Bandit - are you referring to the Raven Nomad or the older 'original' Nomad? According to the sales literature (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornRavenNomadBroLoRes.pdf) the Raven Nomad has a fork lenth of 450mm NOT 400mm. The sales literature (http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/thornpdf/ThornRavenNomadBroLoRes.pdf) also specifically mentions using Odur suspension forks.
I have a pair of Magura Odur (85mm) which I fit occasionally (to a RT) when the off-road bug grips me. I am NOT a mounting biker but the Odur do seam (to my limited experience) to be a very good buy.
You're right, it is confusing! I've got the Raven Nomad w/ S&S couplings, ie the later model with rohloff hub and that's what I thought Andy B was talking about. Since the sales leaflet specifically mentions the Odur forks I was surprised to hear that Andy B did not recommend them. He may have been referring to the original Nomad. I'll ask him.
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I checked with Andy B and what I've posted above does apply to the Raven Nomad with S & S couplings.
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I checked with Andy B and what I've posted above does apply to the Raven Nomad with S & S couplings.
That is certainly inconsistent with the recommendation in the Nomad literature. Maybe Andy B has reconsidered after riding a Nomad with the suspension fork, maybe he disagreed with the pamphlet's recommendation of a suspension fork from the outset. I'm hoping he'll use this forum to clarify.
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Any chance someone at Thorn can confirm or deny the advisability of using a suspension fork on the Raven Nomad S&S?
I can't see any reference in the Nomad S&S brochure to a suspension fork option - except the photos of a bike with suspension fork on the last page.
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Any chance someone at Thorn can confirm or deny the advisability of using a suspension fork on the Raven Nomad S&S?
I can't see any reference in the Nomad S&S brochure to a suspension fork option - except the photos of a bike with suspension fork on the last page.
I see that the recommendation of a suspension fork for the Raven Nomad S&S has been removed since this subject was raised here.
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Had a Nomad S&S question and thought I'd throw it in this thread....the rack brazeons are over sized at 6mm. Will that preclude the use of standard racks like the Tubus Cargo? I"ve only seen photos of the Nomad S&S with the Thorn rear rack.
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I have Thorn front & rear racks and Tubus Cargo rear, Tara & Ergo front racks (on different bikes!).
The Thorn racks will mount with either m5 or m6 bolts. The mounting holes in the racks are m6.
The Tubus racks are designed for m5 bolts. In general the fixing holes could safely be enlarged to take m6 bolts as they are holes in steel plates which are welded into the rack. You would need to source the m6 bolts as Tubus only provide the smaller ones.
The only point which would concern me is that the upper fixing on the Tubus rear rack is an aluminium bar which looks a bit narrow for drilling the fixing hole larger. I would look to fabricate a stainless strap in place of the aluminium bar, rather than drilling the bar.
In use both sets of racks are superb.
The Thorn rear rack is my own preference. The top platform on the Thorn rear rack is wider than the Tubus and this is better for carrying top loads and clearing wide mudguards. You can also fix your rear mudguard struts to points on the Thorn rear rack legs, this makes the rear mudguard struts much shorter and firmer. The top fixing straps are impressively strong drilled stainless items.
I have no preference in the front racks, they all have different challenges to get the front pannier hooks fixed in the best way. You will need double sided mid fork brazeons for the Thorn front rack.
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I have Thorn front & rear racks and Tubus Cargo rear, Tara & Ergo front racks (on different bikes!).
The Thorn racks will mount with either m5 or m6 bolts. The mounting holes in the racks are m6.
The Tubus racks are designed for m5 bolts. In general the fixing holes could safely be enlarged to take m6 bolts as they are holes in steel plates which are welded into the rack. You would need to source the m6 bolts as Tubus only provide the smaller ones.
The only point which would concern me is that the upper fixing on the Tubus rear rack is an aluminium bar which looks a bit narrow for drilling the fixing hole larger. I would look to fabricate a stainless strap in place of the aluminium bar, rather than drilling the bar.
In use both sets of racks are superb.
The Thorn rear rack is my own preference. The top platform on the Thorn rear rack is wider than the Tubus and this is better for carrying top loads and clearing wide mudguards. You can also fix your rear mudguard struts to points on the Thorn rear rack legs, this makes the rear mudguard struts much shorter and firmer. The top fixing straps are impressively strong drilled stainless items.
I have no preference in the front racks, they all have different challenges to get the front pannier hooks fixed in the best way. You will need double sided mid fork brazeons for the Thorn front rack.
Since you have both racks - I notice the Thorn rear rack doesn't seem to be triangulated the way the Tubus Cargo is. I've always liked the Cargo because it's so light and stiff. How is the Thorn rack as far as stiffness side to side? Most of the triangulated racks I have used are more flexible in this regard.
Thanks for your replies - they are very helpful.
cheers,
Vik
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Vik,
The Thorn rack is about 13cm wide and about 38cm long in the top load platform with 4 welded/brazed cross supports plus 1 each end bolted. There is a triangulation effect, with a top width of 13cm and a dropout width of about 16.5cms. The welds/brazing looks a lot more sturdy on the Thorn and the tubing sound thicker when tapped.
The Tubus Cargo has a top width of about 12cm and a length of about 31cm with 3 welded/brazed cross supports. The dropout width is about 16.5cms for the 2 support legs, one of which is obviously triangulated. The third (rear) support is tacked on the outside at the dropouts but does not obviously add anything to the triangulation effect, being more of a pannier sway preventer for floppy panniers.
In use both racks are very stiff in all directions, there is no visible deflection in use under load. I tour with some sons and have been able to watch the racks in action. The maximum load any of us have carried on the rear is 20kgs, so not tested to any extreme yet. I have a tall son who uses one of the Thorn rear racks and he has failed to find a fault with it. His riding style will have stressed it, his size 13/14 feet mean that the panniers are as far back as they will go and add leverage when heavily loaded. I doubt he could ride with the Tubus Cargo, he would have to use a Logo and some rear extenders.
You have not said which panniers you plan to use. The back support and clip system may be a consideration in rack choice. I have retrofitted Arkel cam hooks to my Carradice Super Cs and am delighted with them.
In summary, you cannot go wrong with either rack for fully loaded touring, but only you can decide which features best meet your requirements.
Julian
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Vik,
The Thorn rack is about 13cm wide and about 38cm long in the top load platform with 4 welded/brazed cross supports plus 1 each end bolted. There is a triangulation effect, with a top width of 13cm and a dropout width of about 16.5cms. The welds/brazing looks a lot more sturdy on the Thorn and the tubing sound thicker when tapped.
The Tubus Cargo has a top width of about 12cm and a length of about 31cm with 3 welded/brazed cross supports. The dropout width is about 16.5cms for the 2 support legs, one of which is obviously triangulated. The third (rear) support is tacked on the outside at the dropouts but does not obviously add anything to the triangulation effect, being more of a pannier sway preventer for floppy panniers.
In use both racks are very stiff in all directions, there is no visible deflection in use under load. I tour with some sons and have been able to watch the racks in action. The maximum load any of us have carried on the rear is 20kgs, so not tested to any extreme yet. I have a tall son who uses one of the Thorn rear racks and he has failed to find a fault with it. His riding style will have stressed it, his size 13/14 feet mean that the panniers are as far back as they will go and add leverage when heavily loaded. I doubt he could ride with the Tubus Cargo, he would have to use a Logo and some rear extenders.
You have not said which panniers you plan to use. The back support and clip system may be a consideration in rack choice. I have retrofitted Arkel cam hooks to my Carradice Super Cs and am delighted with them.
In summary, you cannot go wrong with either rack for fully loaded touring, but only you can decide which features best meet your requirements.
Julian
Hi Julian,
I'm prepared to take it on faith that the Thorn rear rack is quite strong. I do appreciate your feedback though. I'll be using the rack with some Ortlieb panniers - I've got some with the QL1 and QL2 lower hooks.
I own a Tubus Cargo and looking at it I probably wouldn't want to drill out either set of mounting holes to accept 6mm bolts - just not enough metal around those areas to make me happy. I'd just get the Thorn carrier if I get a Nomad S&S.
Cheers,
Vik
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(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vUEhS0lU3eU/SRXXJ5XIk4I/AAAAAAAAGP0/Xqa40X9maBI/s400/S%26S1.JPG)
Does anyone know what the threaded hole is for on the bottom of the lower S&S coupler on the Nomad frame?
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Alternative fixing point for a third bottle cage?
Although I can see from the Thorn pictures that one is normally fitted higher up the tube.
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I was wondering about that extra fitting - it does look to be about the right distance to give an alternate, lower bottle position - about where it is on my Raven Tour.
A bottle cage fixed across the coupling would also make it a bit harder to steal the front end of the bike by undoing the couplings!
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Just drill the Tubus rack out
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I was wondering about that extra fitting - it does look to be about the right distance to give an alternate, lower bottle position - about where it is on my Raven Tour.
A bottle cage fixed across the coupling would also make it a bit harder to steal the front end of the bike by undoing the couplings!
I reckon that if someone is equipped to undo the couplings then they'll have an allen key
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Just drill the Tubus rack out
Thanks Dave - I ended up ordering a Thorn rear carrier with my Nomad. I figured I might as well go whole hog if I was going to order a bike from the UK to Canada. I'll keep the Tubus and use it on another bike.
safe riding,
Vik