Thorn Cycles Forum

Technical => Luggage => Topic started by: FaustoCoppi on July 16, 2024, 02:10:16 PM

Title: Luggage quandary
Post by: FaustoCoppi on July 16, 2024, 02:10:16 PM: We currently run Carradice super C luggage complete set bar box low riders rear panniers and stuff sack. They have been and are amazing, but … they’re heavy before anything get put in them, any advice on alternatives that still give the same volume but less weight in the empty bags, we have our contents down to lightest weight already, but the dilemma is the weight versus volume, I can loose 4lb in bag weight by switching to ortlieb but I loose 20 litres capacity, which is a lot balanced against the small weight gain/loss. Anyone have experience of Vaude or Ortlieb variants.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: in4 on July 16, 2024, 02:35:49 PM: I use Super Cs on the rear, Ortlieb Sports rollers on the front and an Ortlieb classic bar bag. Best combination that works for me but much depends upon what you wish to carry. I’ve a pair of Altura Orkney panniers which are great if you like plenty of dedicated pockets/partitions. I also use a Carradice Camper Longflap, mainly for extra capacity but it’s not the easiest bag to attach or remove (unless you buy a quick release option)?
Perhaps a frame bag is worth considering?
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: PH on July 16, 2024, 03:23:42 PM: The weight comes from - Durability, volume, pockets, weather resistance, ease and quality of attachment fittings.
Lighter weight is going to compromise some or all of those, you're right to consider it a quandary. I went down this weight saving route and bought some Altura Vortex Ultralite panniers, they're awkward to fit, flap about when empty, don't close as neatly as the Ortliebs - it was a mistake. If I ever go four pannier touring again, I'll use them on the front and leave them there for the tour.
If you're four pannier touring, what's the all up weight, is saving a couple of kg really going to be noticeable? The biggest saving of course would be dumping the front panniers and rack, if that's a possibility. I'm toying with the idea of bikepacking style fork luggage, lower volume, but I could distribute the weight. I use Ortlieb Sport rollers as my main panniers, they're only 30ltr but I can add 10ltr stuff sacks to the top of each for very little additional weight (Though the sacks are not 100% waterproof) My classic Ortliebs are 25 years old, when they finally give up, I may replace them with the lighter variants, though having seen some, I wouldn't expect them to last as well. My experience of Carradice stuff is limited, other than the saddlebags. I had some Super C front panniers, though the shape meant I couldn't fit as much in as I could alternatives with the same claimed volume. I also had a bar bag, which I foolishly lost, I prefer the Ortlieb, but doubt there's a huge weight difference.
I don't know the answer, like for like I doubt there's a significant saving to be made, so it's a question of what you're prepared to compromise. Alpkit do some interesting looking options, I've only seen it in the shop so have no experience.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: deejayen on July 16, 2024, 03:26:06 PM: I've just ordered the Super C recumbent panniers (63 litres per pair), and am thinking I'm mad because they're around 2.5kg empty! That's the weight of a light tent, sleeping bag and sleeping mat plus a few luxuries! Still, they're not the heaviest panniers - I think the largest Arkels are around 3.5kg per pair.

One of the lighter large panniers I've come across are those by Lone Peak in the States. For example, their Mount Superior panniers are listed at 54 litres and 1.6kg. Lone Peak seem to have a few designs (top or side opening) but won't be as waterproof as Carradice or Ortlieb.

I was also considering some lightweight 'bikepacking' panniers by Mountain Laurel Designs in the States, However, they were only 22 litres per pair. On the plus side, they're only 400g per pair!

I've not seen them, but Ortlieb also make their large 70 litre per pair panniers - they might work out lighter per litre, especially if they enable you to dispense with the front rack and panniers as PH suggested.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: geocycle on July 16, 2024, 06:44:01 PM: I have Ortlieb bikepackers from ca 2006. They have been used pretty much every day and are still in good condition. The bikepackers have the lighter material and a traditional closure, not the roller design. I’ve replaced a buckle and a drawstring in that time. They sit on Tubus racks and I’m wearing through my second as they do rub on the leg. Otherwise I’d not hesitate to recommend them.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: UKTony on July 16, 2024, 06:50:47 PM: I’m no expert on fully loaded touring but I recall reading that Tara Weir moved from the typical four pannier etc set up on her Mk2 Nomad to something more like a bike packing setup. You can read about it and see pictures of the Nomad before and after the changes here

https://followmargopolo.com/whos-margo-2/

The Super Cs have always struck me as ungainly and redistributing loads into more bags that are better positioned more towards the centre of the bike between the axles might also give a better handling.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 17, 2024, 02:16:08 PM: I have used the Ortlieb Backrollers and Front rollers with the 31 liter Rack Pack for over a decade.

They also make a City version that is lighter, mine are the heavier ones. The City version lacks the strap over the top.

My Backrollers are 2140 grams, Frontrollers are 1640 grams, 31 liter Rack Pack is 795 grams.

That adds up to 40 + 25 + 31 = 95 liters

The 31 liter Rack Pack has straps that are designed to work with the Backrollers, the City version lacks those straps. If you get the Rack Pack, avoid the City version for the rear.

I usually strap my rain gear on top of my Front Rollers with that extra strap over the top, such as in the first photo. The City version lacks that strap. Raingear is probably 3 to 4 liters of volume in my photos. Thus, those straps on front are worth some extra liters if you use them the way I do.

For a trip where I wanted more capacity, I bought some Carradry panniers. That trip did not happen, but I eventually used them on a different trip.

Back Carradry are 2260 grams, front Carradry are 1405 grams. The back Carradry I think are about 50 liters, but their rating has fluctuated. I think the Carradry are slightly more volume than the Ortliebs, but the Carradry lacks the bag on top in back, you would have to come up with one.

But they appear to have different fabrics for the Carradry now compared to mine, mine are nine years old. Weight may have changed.

First photo, my Nomad Mk II with Ortliebs

Second Photo, same bike has Carradry on the rear but the front are not Carradry, they are something different. I do not have a photo of my bike with the front Carradry.

The Carradry hang a bit lower on the rack than the Ortliebs. On my light touring bike, that could be a problem as a Carradry rear pannier would be very close to my rear derailleur, or it may touch the derailleur. For most people, that would not be a concern, but I usually try to set up my racks so that my load is as low as I can get it for better weight distribution. Third photo shows my Ortlieb Backrollers actually tough my rear skewer on my light touring bike, but are above the rear derailleur by enough that there is no problem. Some racks push the panniers further away from the center, the rack in the third photo does not do that.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 17, 2024, 02:22:21 PM: Quote from: geocycle on July 16, 2024, 06:44:01 PM
I have Ortlieb bikepackers from ca 2006. They have been used pretty much every day ...
They sit on Tubus racks and I’m wearing through my second as they do rub on the leg. ...

Note to Geocycle:

I put some plastic hose (slit lengthwise) over my racks to avoid the rack abrasion. Note the photo:

Second photo is my light touring bike with a different rack, did the same thing on that rack too.

It does mean some extra time spent on maintaining the sacrificial hose, but it is worth it.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: geocycle on July 17, 2024, 07:03:19 PM: Thanks Mickeg. That’s a useful tip regarding the hose. I’ve been doing it for a couple of years now but was probably a bit late realising what was happening. Pannier 1 Stainless Steel 0!
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: FaustoCoppi on July 17, 2024, 10:08:58 PM: Thank you for all the input, suggestions and advice, all valuable and very informative. More research required.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: in4 on July 18, 2024, 07:44:24 AM: Enjoy seeing and reading Mickegs posts. Some great tips and ideas. I spotted the sinewave set up. I have mine on my bars as I use a short cable to charge my Garmin directly from it.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 19, 2024, 01:57:57 AM: Quote from: in4 on July 18, 2024, 07:44:24 AM
Enjoy seeing and reading Mickegs posts. Some great tips and ideas. I spotted the sinewave set up. I have mine on my bars as I use a short cable to charge my Garmin directly from it.

It keeps moving around. Right now it is on the right side of my handlebar bag bracket on my rando bike. Plug in part aimed down so rain does not accumulate in it. Whatever I am charging would typically be in the bar bag.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: PH on July 20, 2024, 12:53:21 PM: Quote from: PH on July 16, 2024, 03:23:42 PM
I use Ortlieb Sport rollers as my main panniers, they're only 30ltr but I can add 10ltr stuff sacks to the top of each for very little additional weight (Though the sacks are not 100% waterproof)
A photo to illustrate. The stuff sacks don't stop me using the platform of the rack for stuff the same width as it. Another advantage is the extra volume adds height rather than width, it can be an advantage, particularly off road. The stuff sacks would make it awkward to get stuff in and out of the panniers on route, though with a saddlebag and barbag there shouldn't be any need for me to do that.

(https://live.staticflickr.com/7369/8720563425_25cf51c388_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/ehBaFP)Journey end (https://flic.kr/p/ehBaFP) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr

NB: Obviously I don't tour anywhere that requires the same amount of luggage as mickeg
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 20, 2024, 03:58:45 PM: Ph mentioned 30 liter Sport Rollers. I was not familiar with that model, so did some searching. On Ortlieb website did a search for Front Roller, and all I got was Sport Rollers (and some Back Rollers) in the search.

So, looks like Front Rollers are now called Sport Rollers. Still listed at 25 liters total for the pair.

And Ortlieb website has a Sport Roller Core model, sold as a single that is listed at 14.5 liters, the core is 37cm high and the other Sport Rollers are listed at 30cm high. So, the Core model is a different size, in between the standard Sport Roller and Back Roller sizes.

***

For years I have been strapping my rain gear to the top of my ~~Front~~ Sport Rollers using the strap over the top. And I use the strap over the top on the Back Rollers to hold my Rack Pack on the bike. I see that Ph does something similar.

But an important WARNING, that strap over the top on my older Back Rollers and Sport Rollers used a very fragile fabric to hold the buckle on it. Mine are over a decade old, I do not know if current models use this fragile fabric or not. Twice I have torn the buckle off.

On both Back Rollers I have used a strap about 18mm wide to replace that fabric, see photo.

I probably will make the same change to the Sport Rollers later before I use them again.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: deejayen on July 20, 2024, 05:35:00 PM: Ortlieb make the Sport Packer (front panniers with a cap lid and buckles, rather than a roll top) which are 30 litres per pair. The specs say they're 40cm tall, 25cm wide, and 14cm deep.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: PH on July 20, 2024, 07:39:16 PM: Quote from: mickeg on July 20, 2024, 03:58:45 PM
Ph mentioned 30 liter Sport Rollers. I was not familiar with that model, so did some searching. On Ortlieb website did a search for Front Roller, and all I got was Sport Rollers (and some Back Rollers) in the search.

So, looks like Front Rollers are now called Sport Rollers. Still listed at 25 liters total for the pair.
I've been robbed! I thought they used to be advertised as 30L but can only find one place still doing so:
https://www.bike-treks.co.uk/products/ortlieb-sport-roller-classic-30l-pair

They changed the name from Front to Sport before I bought mine about 25 years ago, I think it was just Ortlieb acknowledging many people were using them on the rear. I don't think they made any changes other than the name.
I've never considered the fabric holding the strap to be fragile, though I note on later models (As in the link above) it's been replaced by webbing. I think an advantage when strapping something there is for it to be in some way squidgy, them the strap doesn't have to be tight to dig in and stop it moving fore and aft.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: in4 on July 20, 2024, 09:15:17 PM: Up there last year! Fabulous place. I cycled from a swamp/campsite at Kilchoan. Hope the Mozzies are few. Apparently there’s a lot around Fort William and Ullapool.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: JohnR on July 22, 2024, 07:15:31 PM: Quote from: in4 on July 20, 2024, 09:15:17 PM
Up there last year! Fabulous place. I cycled from a swamp/campsite at Kilchoan. Hope the Mozzies are few. Apparently there’s a lot around Fort William and Ullapool.
Might you mean midges?
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: in4 on July 23, 2024, 09:18:45 AM: Correct. That’s my time in AU showing up.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 23, 2024, 11:19:32 AM: Quote from: PH on July 20, 2024, 07:39:16 PM
Quote from: mickeg on July 20, 2024, 03:58:45 PM
Ph mentioned 30 liter Sport Rollers. I was not familiar with that model, so did some searching. On Ortlieb website did a search for Front Roller, and all I got was Sport Rollers (and some Back Rollers) in the search.

So, looks like Front Rollers are now called Sport Rollers. Still listed at 25 liters total for the pair.
I've been robbed! I thought they used to be advertised as 30L but can only find one place still doing so:
https://www.bike-treks.co.uk/products/ortlieb-sport-roller-classic-30l-pair

They changed the name from Front to Sport before I bought mine about 25 years ago, I think it was just Ortlieb acknowledging many people were using them on the rear. I don't think they made any changes other than the name.
I've never considered the fabric holding the strap to be fragile, though I note on later models (As in the link above) it's been replaced by webbing. I think an advantage when strapping something there is for it to be in some way squidgy, them the strap doesn't have to be tight to dig in and stop it moving fore and aft.

I bought my Front Rollers about 15 years ago before the name change. You bought your Sport Rollers about 25 years ago after the name change.

One of us must have a time machine.

The first trip I used mine was in fall 2010, which also happened to be my first trip with my Sherpa.

Disregard the blue tape on the frame in the photos, I put that on to prevent chaffing from the rack that held the frame on the back of a vehicle for a long drive to and from the trip location. It was later that I realized the tape was not necessary. The rack had worn the paint off of my Surly, but the Surly apparently used softer paint than the Sherpa. Tape was not necessary on subsequent trips with the Sherpa.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: deejayen on July 23, 2024, 12:41:42 PM: I'm not sure about the product on that Bike-Treks page. The picture and product name is of the Sport Roller Classic, but the description mentions Sport Packer Classic, which could be where they've got the 30 litre capacity from.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: PH on July 28, 2024, 03:25:54 PM: Quote from: mickeg on July 23, 2024, 11:19:32 AM
I bought my Front Rollers about 15 years ago before the name change. You bought your Sport Rollers about 25 years ago after the name change.

One of us must have a time machine.

The first trip I used mine was in fall 2010, which also happened to be my first trip with my Sherpa.
If I had a time machine I'd hope to put it to better use.... more likely to be a fuzzy memory. it was these blue one I bought 25 years ago (Actually 27) they were sold as Front.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/4619/25853524958_b2fa0cccdc_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/FoA5fj)loaded raven (https://flic.kr/p/FoA5fj) by Paul (https://www.flickr.com/photos/phbike/), on Flickr

By the time I bought the grey ones, somewhere around 2013, some places were calling them Sport, at least in Germany where mine came from. Maybe there was some overlap in the naming (Intentional or not), maybe someone remembers when the lighter Plus type were introduced (I'm pretty sure these were never called Front) I thought the name changed at the same time as the branding on the front, though I could be wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if some retailers still refer to them as Front, it's just a name, the main point is it ought to have been established by now that they're suitable for use front or back.
Title: Re: Luggage quandary
Post by: mickeg on July 29, 2024, 12:15:43 AM: I have still been calling them Front Rollers. Since Ortliebs last almost forever, I rarely look at their website to learn of any changes.

If I had a time machine, my stock investments would have been soooooooo much better.

For quite a few years now Ortlieb has told European and UK based retailers to not ship to USA. The USA retailers that were maintaining a very large markup complained to Ortlieb that they were being undercut by UK and European based retailers. But my Ortliebs pre-date that, all of my Ortlieb products are over a decade old and came from UK. Even with high shipping costs from UK (pre-brexit) to USA, it was cheaper to buy Ortliebs from the UK and pay the high shipping costs.

If I pull up an Ortlieb product on the SJS website now, no price is listed and it says this:
Please note this product has selling restrictions to your country.