Thorn Cycles Forum

Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: Nichwell on December 06, 2023, 10:39:10 PM

Title: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 06, 2023, 10:39:10 PM
Hello and many thanks for your help. I am looking for a bike for audaxing, general commuting and I hope some extensive touring in Europe. I am really drawn to a rohloff equipped bike for ease of maintenance however I have never used one. My initial thought was of the Mercury as it seems to be closest to what I was looking for. I would really welcome your thoughts and recommendations.
However Sarah at Sjs mentioned the Nomad MK3 700 and the fact that it is adaptable for derailleurs, rohloff or even belt drive. Now that is a big plus as that doesn't commit me to one particular system. But it does seem rather robust for what I have in mind. I read in the brochure that the Nomad loaded is roughly the same weight as the Mercury loaded but the Mercury is more lively. Now I am not sure I am too bothered about exciting handling but I am sure that I am at the age where hauling more weight than I need to up a hill is not what I want to do. I am not by any means a weight weenie and I have always preferred steel but equally if I don't need to I would rather not.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 07, 2023, 10:36:33 AM
Hi, welcome to the forum, they're both good bikes, here's my take on it:
I have both and although there's a lot of overlap I never have any indecision about which to choose for any given ride. 
The Mercury is more fun, all that subjective stuff, engaging, rewarding... I Audax and light tour on it, plus use it for all those on-road rides with light luggage where the main intention is to enjoy the cycling.
The Nomad is more sure footed, a bit dull, maybe even boring, though sometimes that's exactly what I want.  I use it as a day to day bike, for anything involving off road, and touring that requires more than a change of clothes. It occasionally tows a trailer and if I need to park it somewhere it might get knocked I have the impression it'll withstand that better than the Merc.
If I were to do the same ride on both, I'd enjoy the cycling more on the Mercury and the scenery more on the Nomad, it isn't a question of better but different.  Having said that, there's no ride I've done that I couldn't have done on the other, I've done a 200km Audax on the Nomad and a couple of camping trips on the Mercury, I never felt that the bikes were not capable of it, just that they weren't ideal.
Don't worry about the weight, at least nowhere near the top of the list, it's a consequence of design and it's that which effects the feel. rather than the grams.  In a similar spec they could easily be brought to within a kg of each other, so in terms of effort/propulsion the difference is negligible.  Unloaded, the Mercury is more comfortable, the Nomad is noticeably stiffer, you can mitigate that with tyre and wheel size, but then you widen the difference in other ways. I can swap wheels and forks between mine, get the weight down to a 800g difference, but in their usual configuration there's 3.2kg between them. 
The Mercury is my favorite bike, the Nomad my most ridden. Which would suit you better depends on which part of your riding you prioritise, what touring you plan, how much Audaxing, how you ride, what you like... On paper the Nomad is a better do it all bike, but for me a lot of that stuff could just as well be done on a cheap hack, so I would choose the Mercury. 

It is mostly opinion of course and there's a nice broad range of that on this forum.  We won't all reach the same conclusions, we'll all have our own preferences and subjective tests, though the physics is the same for everyone.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: iGom on December 07, 2023, 12:12:02 PM
I went through much the same process some months ago.  I’ve wanted a Rohloff bike for ages, although always deterred by the expense, and earlier this year decided if I didn’t get one soon it would be too late (age!).  I have a lovely Thorn Audax which has been my go-to bike for 15 years and I wanted something similar, but with straight bars.  I’ve used the Audax for long day rides, moving-on B&B tours and even moving-on camping  tours - ensuring I take as little as I find possible (still two panniers & a lightweight tent).  I’ve done two similar camping trips with my Mercury and it’s been great.  They were not moving-on, but the rides of ~50 miles to & from the campsites were fine.
I also have a heavy-duty touring bike, more suited to four panniers and a bigger = heavier tent.  I’m sure I will still be using that sometimes.
I had a similar discussion with Sarah, but after a little thought remembered I was looking for something Audax-like, so stuck with the Mercury.  No regrets.
Remember that Thorn offer a long trial period – 90 days I think it was.
Final caveat – you have to make your own decision of course.  But I’m sure they are both great bikes.

Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 07, 2023, 12:45:16 PM
Frames of essentially the same weight can be designed for different loads through choice of tubing size. How strong and heavy are you? I bought a Mercury thinking it would be the ideal bike on account of the Rohloff hub but didn't appreciate that it was designed for significantly more load (including myself) than I would ever put on it so the result was a fairly firm ride although 50mm tyres on 650b wheels helped. IIRC the design maximum load of a Mercury is 120kg (rider + baggage) but I never exceeded 75kg. Given the deteriorating state of UK roads it's nice to have a bike which isn't so stiff that it tries to shake your teeth out but that stiffness is needed to carry a big load. However, it wasn't a bad bike and I clocked up nearly 8k miles on it before it was rehomed. My current Rohloff bike is a DIY fitting of the hub onto a frame designed for derailleur gears (more here if you want to read it https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14396.0).

Before the Mercury I had another bike with a belt drive (and the Rohloff hub that I'm currently using). I had bought that thinking it would be a very low maintenance bike but riding it through a winter resulted in an ever-increasing amount of creaking noises. Eventually I gave the belt a good scrub and the bike became quiet again - not as low maintenance as I had expected. I subsequently rode my Mercury which I had fitted with a Hebie Chainglider (discussed elsewhere on this forum) through a winter with far less maintenance. Before you embark on a belt drive bike you need to be confident about the gearing ratio you want to use as the parts are expensive and any change to the gearing involves replacing two of the three drivetrain components. Given your plan to use the bike for different task then you may need different gearing depending on the load and the anticipated cycling conditions. Changing the gearing on a normal Rohloff bike is much cheaper.

Subject to not exceeding the loading recommendation, the Mercury would be ideal for the touring you envisage but less good at the other tasks. If you are a lightweight person then consider the Mk 4 Audax which is Rohloff-compatible. It has a more compliant frame but limited to narrower tyres than the Mercury.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 07, 2023, 02:22:04 PM
Thank you very much indeed. Exactly the sort of help I was looking for. I think that whilst a test ride could be helpful, I don't think I could really make a reasonable selection without the sort of experience that is on offer here. JohnR in answer to your query I am returning to cycling seriously after quite a long lay off with knee trouble. During that time I have accumulated a lot of flab but not much strength! Unfortunately, I don't think I will have problems with the frame being too stiff. Thanks for the views on the belt drive. I was really in too minds about it anyway and I think the cost of changing gears has made up my mind on that score.
PH you mention changing forks and wheels, would you mind giving more detail? I ask because I am considering buying a frame set rather than a complete bike and building it up partly for that reason and partly as it is less likely to be immediately noticed by my beloved and cause problems with the domestic bliss. Downside of course is not being able to take advantage of thorn's generous returns policy.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 07, 2023, 07:45:31 PM
PH you mention changing forks and wheels, would you mind giving more detail?
I can run either bike as 700c with a front rim brake or 650B with a disc, they're a lot closer to each other when wearing the same fork, brake, wheels and tyres.  It wouldn't really be fair to compare them in completely different specs.  The differences noted in my first post are apparent in any spec, but more pronounced as they diverge.  If I were to have the Nomad as my only bike, I'd choose 700c and probably a rim brake fork.  I can't imagine only having the Mercury.  Having two allowed me to experiment and then build them differently, this would be the case whatever the bikes were. Thorn have widened the appeal with different configurations of each, while contracting the range of models.  In my opinion these two bikes are still best as they were originally offered, the Mercury as a Sports Tourer and the Nomad as a full on Tourer towards the expedition end of the spectrum.

There's also the price, though the most expensive route would be to get the wrong one.  However, the Nomad used to be £250 cheaper than the Mercury and they're now the same price.  I suspect this is only because the Mercurys are still at pre pandemic prices and if they ever re-stock the differential will be restored.  That'd be a poor reason to choose, but I think you'd feel you'd got more for your money with a Mercury.

OT - The custom bike I had before the Mercury sat somewhere between the two, not as good at the extremes, but it covered more of the middle ground than either.  I think that's just how it is, the better a bike is at a specific thing, the less of an all-rounder it's going to be. 
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: martinf on December 08, 2023, 06:32:30 AM
Hello and many thanks for your help. I am looking for a bike for audaxing, general commuting and I hope some extensive touring in Europe. I am really drawn to a rohloff equipped bike for ease of maintenance however I have never used one.

I don't do audaxing as such, although I do have a bike that I use for lightly-loaded day rides on (mostly) good roads. This is a Raven Sport Tour, the predecessor to the Mercury, but in the 26" wheel size. Even for this use I have reasonably wide tyres for comfort, but fitted on lightweight, fairly narrow rims. I started with 35 mm Kojaks (not a particularly efficient tyre despite the sporty look), then tried 28 mm Continentals, which gave a quicker but harsher ride, and finally moved to Marathon Supreme in 42 mm width, which are a good performance/comfort compromise for me and also work quite well on badly maintained minor roads, towpaths and similar. I can do lightly-loaded tours on this bike, but to make it suitable for multi-day camping tours I would have to change the setup, so I have another bike for that.

On my very old 700C lightweight I have Continental Grand Prix 5000 tyres in the 32 mm size. These have very low rolling resistance and are OK for comfort so long as I only use the bike on good roads. These tyres would probably a good choice for serious Audax riding on a 700C Mercury.

For loaded touring I have a Raven Tour (designed for heavily loaded touring, but with slightly less capacity than the current Nomad frame) kitted out with front and rear racks, heavier and wider rims and with wider tyres. I usually use Marathon Supreme in 50 mm width, these roll quite well on tarmac and cope reasonably on moderate off-road tracks and paths. But I could go a bit wider and fit Marathon Mondial in 55 mm width if I ever plan a tour using lots of rough tracks.

Being retired I don't do commuting any more, but when I did I would use any of my bikes, with a biais towards a lightweight bike with efficient tyres when I had a long commute of 22 km each way. This probably depends on the state of the roads on your commute - if this is in an area with lots of metal and glass debris and potholes wider tyres with good puncture protection would be a better choice.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 08, 2023, 02:09:32 PM
If your plans for "extensive touring" in Europe are carrying a camping load, the bike that will serve you best for that will be heavier with a stiffer frame, heavier rims, and with lower gearing than the best bike for audaxing.

My point is that you might want to consider two bikes, or more.  I have a Nomad Mk II for heavy touring, but I would never consider using this bike for randonneuring. 

The bike I use for randonneuring has a derailleur system with a triple crank and would not serve me well for camping, frame is too flexible and the lowest gear is too high to carry camping gear up a steep hill.  The tires are too narrow for carrying more than the lightest load, a heavy load would cause too many pinch flats on these tires.

But, I have the storage space for more than one bike.  I have three bikes that are used for touring.  My point is that if you want to enjoy an activity, you are best served by having the right kind of equipment for that activity instead of trying to have one bike for all purposes.

Since a Rohloff wheel is not cheap, I understand that you might want to only have one bike if you want to exclusively use a Rohloff, but that limits you in other ways.  I only have one Rohloff bike. 
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 08, 2023, 06:58:04 PM
Hello and many thanks for your help. I am looking for a bike for audaxing, general commuting and I hope some extensive touring in Europe.
I would add that I wouldn't want to use a Thorn bike with a Rohloff hub for commuting unless there's very secure bike storage. The magpies will be attracted by any new bike and it's an expensive loss should the bike go astray.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: martinf on December 08, 2023, 07:31:30 PM
I would add that I wouldn't want to use a Thorn bike with a Rohloff hub for commuting unless there's very secure bike storage. The magpies will be attracted by any new bike and it's an expensive loss should the bike go astray.

I've been lucky with secure bike storage for the vast majority of my commutes.

I did once have a coworker complain about me bringing a bike into the office hallway, he said if I could bring my bike inside, why couldn't he bring his car inside? I replied that it would be OK, so long as he carried his car to take it inside like I did with my bike. 

For times when I need to leave a bike in a much less secure place I have two solutions :

- an old second-hand bike with (hopefully) very low theft appeal. Originally an old ladies mixte frame that I got for free, set up with 5 speed derailleur gearing using an old derailleur that still worked reasonably well. I left some rust spots on that frame. Nowadays I have a very old 650B wheel bike converted to use a 5 speed Sturmey-Archer hub, the latter dating from the early 1980's.   

- I get round the need to leave the bike by using my lightweight Brompton that I can take with me, bagged if I need to disguise the fact that it is a bicycle.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 10, 2023, 07:51:52 PM
Thanks very much indeed for the advice. At the moment I am leaning very much towards the Mercury, but still dithering slightly. I will email SJS and see how long it will be for the Mercury frames to come back into stock and use that to make final decision. I am lucky with commuting, I leave the bike in the corner of the staffroom and as the headteacher also cycles nobody complains.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: martinf on December 11, 2023, 06:47:09 AM
Thanks very much indeed for the advice. At the moment I am leaning very much towards the Mercury, but still dithering slightly.

Maybe start with a second-hand Mercury and see whether:

- you like the Rohloff. I do, but it doesn't suit everyone.
- the Mercury is suitable for your planned mix of riding.

For me the question mark would be the "extensive touring" requirement, but that depends on how you do it. I tend to carry rather a lot of stuff (cooking equipment, waterbag, etc.) for a long camping tour, and I go off-road at times, so I would favour the Nomad.

But for a long time I used my 700C lightweight with derailleur gears for everything.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 11, 2023, 11:26:20 AM
Thanks very much indeed for the advice. At the moment I am leaning very much towards the Mercury, but still dithering slightly. I will email SJS and see how long it will be for the Mercury frames to come back into stock and use that to make final decision.
I just looked on the SJS website, I hadn't realised the stock situation was so low.  It looks like they haven't re-stocked since before the pandemic, be interesting to see what they say.
IMO, these two bikes are different enough that I wouldn't substitute one for the other, in either direction.  I'd also agree with Martin that if your touring is with full kit the Nomad is the better choice and I think 650B the better wheel size.   
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: in4 on December 11, 2023, 12:05:35 PM
I think there’s a used Raven on SJS at the moment. If it’s your size might be a great option for you. Hmm a Nomad 565L was there too.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: SteveM on December 11, 2023, 07:33:17 PM
I have been riding the Mercury with Rohloff on 700c wheels for some time.  Stripping it back and going for narrower tires (mine are Conti Ride Tour 42mm), it would be a very nice Audax bike.  It’s sporty enough.  I have a Nomad Mk 2 with Rohloff for  touring, it’s heavier but solid as a rock.  As the wise ones say, there is overlap but for me Mercury is fast, Nonad is more leisurely (which I love).
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 11, 2023, 10:03:42 PM
And a Nomad has popped up in the for sale section https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=15024.0.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 11, 2023, 10:34:43 PM
for me Mercury is fast, Nonad is more leisurely (which I love).
For me as well.  Though I'm reminded what Nomad's are capable of, even if that rider is now looking for something lighter.
https://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=14998.msg113071#msg113071
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 12, 2023, 03:57:23 AM
If you do get one Rohloff bike for all purposes, I use a 36T chainring and 16T sprocket for heavy touring on my Nomad Mk II.

But when I am riding that bike near home where the heaviest load might be a pannier of groceries, I want higher gearing.  For that I use a 44T chainring and add four chain links.  That gives me a low enough gear for hill climbing with a mostly unladen bike, but also higher gears for those shallow downhills where I want to maintain momentum.

Or more simply, if you want one bike to be a touring bike and also an audaxing bike, you might want two sets of gearing.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: chipbury on December 18, 2023, 09:56:48 PM
In January 2021 I ordered a Mk3 Mercury, however by March 2021 I was told it was no longer possible to fulfil the order.  I was led to believe that they were stopping production of the Mercury (if as suggested up thread they've not restocked since pre-pandemic maybe this is the case?).

Anyway I changed the order to a Mk3 Nomad which i've been very happy with.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 18, 2023, 10:33:54 PM
In January 2021 I ordered a Mk3 Mercury, however by March 2021 I was told it was no longer possible to fulfil the order.  I was led to believe that they were stopping production of the Mercury (if as suggested up thread they've not restocked since pre-pandemic maybe this is the case?).
I think the problem was that the frame manufacturers were inundated by orders in response to the spike in demand triggered by covid. The same demand spike would have depleted Thorn's stock of frames faster than normal. Nonetheless the replenishment of Thorn's stock is taking longer than I would have expected.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 19, 2023, 02:07:40 PM
Yes, this seems to be the case. Sarah says they are out of stock of the mk3 with no plans to recorder. They do still have some of the older frames available that will just take 700 rather than 700/650b. Thanks again for the continued help/ideas.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Mike Ayling on December 20, 2023, 07:55:32 AM
Sarah says they are out of stock of the mk3 with no plans to recorder.

This suggests that there may no longer be a demand for the Mercury

Your thoughts?
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 20, 2023, 09:54:54 AM
Sarah says they are out of stock of the mk3 with no plans to recorder.

This suggests that there may no longer be a demand for the Mercury

Your thoughts?
I doubt anyone outside of Thorn HQ knows all the facts and data. They are a successful business, so I think it's a safe bet they wouldn't drop it if it made business sense not to.  Maybe they think enough potential Mercury customers will accept a Nomad, I wouldn't be one of them, but we can see upthread some do.  There's also the cost, it's an indulgent frame, special order custom made tubes with a lot of manipulation, maybe it was no longer economically viable.
Whatever the reasons, I'm glad I have one!
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 20, 2023, 10:01:58 AM
They do still have some of the older frames available that will just take 700 rather than 700/650b. Thanks again for the continued help/ideas.
I started out with the older model (Crashed & replaced with a Mk3) The differences are quite minor, the fitting for a caliper brake was dropped and the mini EBB replaced with a full throw one, as a result there's a bit more tyre clearance, I went from 35 to 40mm.
There may be some other differences I'm not aware of, I didn't notice any difference in the riding experience.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Pallium on December 20, 2023, 10:25:26 AM
Looking at their frame stock levels, I'd say that Thorn are getting out of the bike building business altogether. It seems to have coincided with Andy Blance's retirement.

Pallium
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 20, 2023, 01:32:08 PM
Looking at their frame stock levels, I'd say that Thorn are getting out of the bike building business altogether. It seems to have coincided with Andy Blance's retirement.

Pallium

When I saw the comment above that said "... out of stock of the mk3 with no plans to recorder.", I had the same thought but did not want to be the first one to say that.

SJS would be a viable business without the Thorn bike brand.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: WorldTourer on December 20, 2023, 02:20:56 PM
Sad news about the end of the Nomad. I just listened to an interviewed cyclist gush about how much choice people have today when buying a new frame: no matter what you need in terms of geometry, tire clearance, sliding dropouts/EBB, etc., there are now multiple companies offering a frame that is good for you. Some of those companies operate on economies of scale where frames can be much cheaper than Thorn’s. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was an unviable market for SJS.

Another thing I’ve repeatedly heard from UK cyclists who were familiar with SJS firsthand, is that the staff aside from Andy seemed to know little about long-haul bicycle travel in general, let alone the bikepacking developments that have made traditional touring bikes less attractive to younger consumers.

As I’ve said before here, I treasure my Nomad Mk3, but things move fast in the industry and a lot of riders I meet find Rohloff hubs superseded by Pinion gearboxes. (Two of the expedition cyclists that rode Nomads a decade ago and thus inspired me to do so, have retired or sold their Thorns and are riding Tout Terrains now.) If your company no longer has a frame designer, you can’t come up with something new to meet that demand.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 20, 2023, 08:22:04 PM
I also have to wonder if Robin Thorn is starting to think of his exit strategy from the Thorn / SJS business. The business had over £2M of stock at the end of 2022 https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/company/04121096 and there could understandably be a reluctance to significantly add to that by replenishing the stock of Thorn bikes which are relatively slow moving parts. The products are durable (more than half the Thorn bikes currently on sale at https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/new-used-cycles-frames/) are used, which reduces the demand for new versions of the same.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 21, 2023, 05:05:31 PM
Sad news about the end of the Nomad.
Did you mean the Mercury, or do you know something else?
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 21, 2023, 05:10:37 PM
(more than half the Thorn bikes currently on sale at https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/new-used-cycles-frames/) are used
That's not really a fair comparison, Thorn don't generally have bikes built ready for sale, they have frames ready to be built to spec and those outnumber secondhand bikes by a large margin.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Robin Thorn on December 22, 2023, 09:42:28 AM
Happy Xmas and New Year to you all.
I have to admit that generally I don't read the forum as i view it as for consumer discussion and unbiased advice from users not to be sullied by the commercial interests of Thorn Cycles.
Our wonderful moderator pointed out this thread so here is my unconsidered brief response, probably ignoring many of the points made, sorry:
All current Thorn frame models are no longer planned to be in production except Thorn Nomad mk3 and Raven Twin tandems.
Do I have an exit plan from the business?
I'm currently 64, my plan is to die working (if you can call what I do now work) the business will eventually be owned by other family members who will run it i trust continuing all our core values.
As to future models, we do have a plan but Covid rather disrupted things and Andy's well earned retirement has caused me to take my eye off this ball, hence the lack of any in depth stock wxcept for Nomad.
The current PLAN is a new model with flexibility of the Nomad mk3, the tubing of the audax mk4 and be very similar in function to the Mercury. This is a plan, there's no model name, price point or time frame. Please don't ask subsequent questions here on the forum of me as I plan not to look again at this thread.
Can I just thank ALL contributors to this forum for the time they spend replying to potential buyers questions.
I am not however avoiding answering questions personally, as always (even when I'm on holiday as I am now till mid January) I'm happy to answer my work phone number during our regular office hours on +44 (0)1278441522 but please note Sarah and Nik on 01278441505 are far more pleasant, measured and attentive than myself despite my mellowing with age.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 22, 2023, 10:38:10 AM
Watching with interest, though barring accidents I have enough bikes to last my lifetime. 

Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: GaryRT on December 23, 2023, 10:26:50 AM
That was an excellent (and necessary, i feel) response by Robin, so thanks to him (and Dan!).

I’m lucky enough to have a Raven Tour and a Mercury and I’ve built up a little collection of replacement parts, such as eccentric bottom brackets, due to waking in the early hours with irrational thoughts of S.J.S. suddenly being sold, boarded up and all stock immediately melted down.

I’ve had the Raven almost 16 years and there is no reason why it won’t keep going as long as a few specialist components remain available, so i have no need for another bike.  Having said that, I got the Mercury as a well deserved 50th birthday present to myself, so i’m sure that if another model was available in 8 years time for my 60th, I should be allowed a look. In my opinion.

Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: geocycle on December 23, 2023, 12:38:49 PM
An interesting post indeed. It does seem that the all purpose frame is being adopted by a few manufacturers with use across light tourer, gravel and commuting functions.  It must be more efficient to have a few frames that take a lot of different components. Also good for those of us that like to change things as our use and tastes change.  The other growth area is e-bikes of course…

Still loving my raven sport and will keep it as long as I still commute to work providing of course the supply of rims and tyres holds up!

Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 23, 2023, 02:52:39 PM
I am quite sure that the bike building industry has been a tough one to keep up with in the past decade or so.  In a very short period of time:

 - 26 inch wheel bikes mostly disappeared to be replaced by either 650b or wider 700c tire bikes.  A decade ago if someone asked me if they should get a 26 inch touring bike or 700c, my stock answer was that tires narrower than 40mm were uncommon in 26 inch and tires wider than 37mm were rare in 700c, so decide which you want based on that.  But, the rather sudden appearance of a variety of 650b tires, wider 700c tires, and sudden loss of choice in 26 inch was a game changer.

 - Disc brakes largely replaced rim brakes.

 - Disc mounts evolved, now flat mounts are quite common.

 - Through axle hubs took over the non IGH world.

 - Pinion gearing became a competitor to Rohloff hub bikes.  Each has different frame constraints.

 - And in the derailleur world, the huge (expensive) cassettes for 1X gearing with 12 speed options (13 for Campy) with a wide gearing range became common.   And triple cranks and associated shifters almost disappeared.

And I did not even address the shifts in touring, with the Bikepacking type luggage competing with conventional touring gear like panniers and associated changes for frame design for the different luggage.

My point is that I am sure it has been hard to stay caught up in the frame design and manufacturing business over the past decade.  And it probably will not be easier in the future either.

Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on December 26, 2023, 02:07:47 PM
Nichwell Have you seen the bike comparison chart on page 22 of the Thorn touring bike bible?

The chart gives a good idea of how the bikes in different configurations, perform for a variety of different tasks.

I would try and get decent length test rides on them both to see how you feel about them and the Rohloff.

I have tried and failed to get a bike that will do everything well, I also do some Audax type rides, some commuting and some laden touring.

Two out of three is the best I have managed.

I finally settled on one heavier duty flat bar Rohloff machine for year round commuting, utility riding and laden touring. The bike is set up with fat reasonably puncture resistant tyres, discs front and rear, dynamo, mudguards, rack, Chainglider. It's tough enough to stand the daily commute or reasonably heavyweight touring over a variety of different surfaces. I do more miles on this machine than my other and it is very low maintenance. It's probably most similar to a 650B disc Nomad.

It's great,  but it is a bit of a tank and I found it too slow for longer more sporty rides. I find myself very quickly dropped in a group ride! Not ideal for a longer audax on good roads.

My other bike is a drop bar Thorn Club Tour with the 853 fork. 30 speed derailleur gearing. This is much lighter, no rack, lighter, narrower road tyres and mudguards. I use this mostly in the summer months for faster day rides unloaded, or lightweight single night B&B trips with a decent sized saddlebag. Its much more engaging and responsive to ride. Because it's only really used in dryer conditions and for less miles, I can live with the level of maintenance required to keep everything running nicely.

I did have the Club tour  setup with a Rohloff and a chain tensioner for a while. Whilst it  worked OK, I found the gear change with drop bars and the rohloff more awkward than with STI shifters. I also found that as you can't change gear under heavy load with the rohloff I ended uo being a bit slower overall, if the route had a lot of climbing.

In short I find the Rohloff great for heavier touring and doing the day to day utility type riding. The low maintenance is a big plus. But for faster rides I still prefer the drop bar derailleur bike.

As both bikes were bought second hand, I made a significant saving on buying new. The total cost for both, was a lot less than a single new Nomad or  Mercury.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Mike Ayling on December 27, 2023, 09:21:23 PM
""
I also found that as you can't change gear under heavy load with the rohloff


Not that easy with a derailleur bike as well!
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 28, 2023, 12:20:39 AM
""
I also found that as you can't change gear under heavy load with the rohloff


Not that easy with a derailleur bike as well!

I find it easy to shift a Rohloff under load, I just have to either slow my cadence for a split second while I shift to take the pressure off the gears, or time it to when one pedal is at the top of the stroke so the torque on the crank is minimized.

I use the hubbub adapter on drop bars to put the shifter on the bar end.  That way I can have both hands (one of which is on the shifter) far enough from the steering axis (steerer tube) that I have adequate leverage for steering if on difficult terrain. 

I find derailleurs worse for that sort of thing.  If pedaling hard, you have to let up on your pedaling to be able to shift, and you really should not start pedaling hard until your rear wheel has made half a revolution so that the chain could complete the shift onto a new cog.   

And pedaling hard while shifting the front is a way to get chain suck and damage a front derailleur.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on December 28, 2023, 01:16:38 AM
Just to be clear, I like the Rohloff bike, I have no issue with the shifting. It just works better for me with a straight bar.  It's a much better system for me for commuting and heavier touring.
Being able to drop to the right gear at a stand still is useful. The low maintenance is a big plus.

 It's just like everything else bike related, disc's vs rim brakes, saddle's, wheel and tyre sizes, steel, carbon, titanium or aluminum frames, chain vs belt, there is no one size fits all solution. All you can do is try the different options and see what you enjoy using the most.

Just because the Rohloff does not work quite as well for me, on a drop bar bike, does not mean it won't suit somebody else. :-)
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 28, 2023, 10:54:39 AM
Thanks very much indeed. This advice has been very helpful and, following that and the comparison chart, I think I am going to go with the Nomad 700ab which should cover the touring and commuting side of things. Then keep an eye ebay or Facebook for something like the Spa Elan. Ideally I would like to see if it is possible to get the weight of the Nomad down a little; possibly by trying carbo/aluminium forks as the Thorn disc forks look like they can carry much more weight than I could. But I would like discs so I can then dither about 650b or 700 wheelset.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 28, 2023, 01:58:54 PM
Thanks very much indeed. This advice has been very helpful and, following that and the comparison chart, I think I am going to go with the Nomad 700ab which should cover the touring and commuting side of things. Then keep an eye ebay or Facebook for something like the Spa Elan.
I think with your usage requirements I'd also be going the two bike route, though my choices might lead to considerably different bikes.  With one Rohloff, I would definitely want it in the most used bike. 
Only thing I'd advise, and it's a lesson expensively learnt, is to minimise the overlap.  Starting with a blank sheet, I'd be planning the two bikes together, rather than having the second one influenced by the choices of the first.  I have over the last few years, reduced my bike collection from five to three (Not counting those used exclusively for work).  Sold three, bought one, slightly re-configured another, it hasn't compromised any of my cycling, it's just lessened the overlap.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Nichwell on December 28, 2023, 02:11:12 PM
Of course realised the Nomad 700ab build means 700c wheels. Idiocy strikes! I blame Christmas.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 28, 2023, 02:13:19 PM
I did have the Club tour  setup with a Rohloff and a chain tensioner for a while. Whilst it  worked OK, I found the gear change with drop bars and the rohloff more awkward than with STI shifters.
Pity that didn't work out, I remember the thread, though these things are always worth trying.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 28, 2023, 02:15:36 PM
Of course realised the Nomad 700ab build means 700c wheels. Idiocy strikes! I blame Christmas.
I did notice the discrepancy, though I changed my Nomad from 700c to 650B so such things are not impossible.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Andyb1 on December 28, 2023, 07:19:39 PM
An interesting thread!

My personal thoughts:
- it is too easy to have a second bike which is the same as your first bike!  Much better to have bikes set up for different uses.   Like Diagmonkey I have a Rohloff geared steel bike with chainglider, discs and lights for the wet dark winter and for carrying, while my derailleur geared Sherpa with rim brakes will be more tuned for summer use on dry roads with light loads.  That maybe leaves a gap for a MTB…….  Thankfully unused cycles can be stored much easier than unused cars or motorbikes!
- As a 26 inch wheeled Rohloff geared flat bar heavy duty tourer the Nomad Mk III is a very specialised product.  My experience with a Mk III frame was that derailleurs would fit but were not ideal (the chain hit the chainstay in the highest gear and the EBB was not required)….. and 700c wheels would make the bike very tall…..
- Maybe SJS / Thorn do not need to make new bikes?   Selling just spares and parts may be a better business.



   
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: Matt2matt2002 on December 28, 2023, 08:10:44 PM
That was an excellent (and necessary, i feel) response by Robin, so thanks to him (and Dan!).

I’m lucky enough to have a Raven Tour and a Mercury and I’ve built up a little collection of replacement parts, such as eccentric bottom brackets, due to waking in the early hours with irrational thoughts of S.J.S. suddenly being sold, boarded up and all stock immediately melted down.

I’ve had the Raven almost 16 years and there is no reason why it won’t keep going as long as a few specialist components remain available, so i have no need for another bike.  Having said that, I got the Mercury as a well deserved 50th birthday present to myself, so i’m sure that if another model was available in 8 years time for my 60th, I should be allowed a look. In my opinion.

Nice points here.
Thanks

I also have the Raven Tour ( 17 years I think ) and cannot see me buying any other bike in the future. I celebrated the big seven 0 last month.
 For me it ticks all my boxes; daily trips around my home area & much longer tours abroad.

Lets wish Robin and his team all the best for 2024.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on December 28, 2023, 10:37:28 PM
I did have the Club tour  setup with a Rohloff and a chain tensioner for a while. Whilst it  worked OK, I found the gear change with drop bars and the rohloff more awkward than with STI shifters.
Pity that didn't work out, I remember the thread, though these things are always worth trying.

It did not work as well as I expected, but it was a fairly cheap way of finding out what works and does not work for me. It was a good learning curve and will has probably helped me avoid an expensive mistake moving forward.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 31, 2023, 01:03:52 PM
I've been toying with the idea of fitting drop bars on my Rohloff bike to try to reduce the wind drag so the comments above are useful. The cheapest solution seems to be to use the Van Nicohlas Rohloff drop bars (which split in the middle) with the Tektro RL540 road drop brake levers (as in the build here https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bikes/thorn-audax-mk4-700c-with-rohloff-and-drop-bars-55-gumetal-new/). However, gear shifting will necessitate temporarily moving a hand. The best, but more expensive, solution is to use the Gebla Rohbox with modified SRAM brifters so gear shifting doesn't require additional hand movements. I have deferred a decision on this investment.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 31, 2023, 02:08:21 PM
I've been toying with the idea of fitting drop bars on my Rohloff bike to try to reduce the wind drag so the comments above are useful. The cheapest solution seems to be to use the Van Nicohlas Rohloff drop bars (which split in the middle) with the Tektro RL540 road drop brake levers (as in the build here https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bikes/thorn-audax-mk4-700c-with-rohloff-and-drop-bars-55-gumetal-new/). However, gear shifting will necessitate temporarily moving a hand. The best, but more expensive, solution is to use the Gebla Rohbox with modified SRAM brifters so gear shifting doesn't require additional hand movements. I have deferred a decision on this investment.

I tried several locations for my Rohloff shifter, but one day when I was pedaling up a steep hill on a very rough gravel road, I had my hands out to the sides of the drop bars where I had good leverage for steering, but my shifter was closer to the steerer tube, thus if my hand was on the shifter, I did not have much leverage for shifting.  Several times during that day I wished that my shifter was off to the side where I could have my hand for shifting and steering.  And during that day on one of many steep uphills, I decided I wanted my shifter on the bar end where I had good leverage for shifting.

I have been using bar end shifters on several derailleur bikes for decades, so I am used to reaching to that location to shift, so for me it was a logical choice.

I do not remember the details but I think I bought the Shimano version of the Hubbub Adapter, not the Rohloff version and I think I cut off the extra length with a hack saw.  At the time I could not buy the Rohloff version.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/hubbub-drop-bar-adaptor-mount-for-rohloff-63-mm/
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/gear-spares/hubbub-drop-bar-adaptor-mount-for-twistgrip-73-mm/

I did not cut my handlebar shorter.

I used two V brake noodles that I sprayed black to bend my cable forwards from the shifter so that the cable is not anywhere near my knees when I am on the bike.

I am very happy with this setup.

Keep in mind that if your frame is sized for flat bars, you likely have a longer top tube than ideal for drop bars.  I ordered my frame size on my Rohloff bike with the intent to use drop bars.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: UKTony on December 31, 2023, 04:08:31 PM
I've been toying with the idea of fitting drop bars on my Rohloff bike to try to reduce the wind drag so the comments above are useful. The cheapest solution seems to be to use the Van Nicohlas Rohloff drop bars (which split in the middle) with the Tektro RL540 road drop brake levers (as in the build here https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/bikes/thorn-audax-mk4-700c-with-rohloff-and-drop-bars-55-gumetal-new/). However, gear shifting will necessitate temporarily moving a hand. The best, but more expensive, solution is to use the Gebla Rohbox with modified SRAM brifters so gear shifting doesn't require additional hand movements. I have deferred a decision on this investment.

The as new Mercury Mk2 size 580L I bought on eBay last year had been converted by the seller to drop bars with the shifter on the short (105mm) version of Thorn’s accessory T-bar. So the shifter was quite close to the steerer and slightly obscured by the bars which were on a short stem presumably to compensate for the L(ong) top tube frame.

It’s a 580L frame and when new came in the straight bar set up. I wasn’t looking for a drop bar bike but this one came with the original straight bar and V brake levers. After a year and 1100 miles I decided last August to canvert it back to straight bars. The cockpit arrangement now pretty much mirrors the arrangement on my Mk2 Nomad - Thorn Flat Track bars, Shimano XT V Brake levers and Ergon GP5L grips with integral adjustable bar ends. Main differences are that the bars are cut to 540mm on the Nomad and 520 on the Mercury and the stems are 120mm and 110 respectively, both 17° rise.

All of my riding at the moment, on the Mercury ir Nomad, is day rides, unloaded apart from basic necessities. The routes are mostly on shared cycle paths, tow paths, narrow, up and down and bendy uneven, oft potholed lanes. I make full use of the Rohloff abibility for rapid sequential up and down gear changing to cater for changes  in terrain, obstacles etc to maintain knee-saving cadence  and a decent speed, (not fast). Having the shifter close to hand on the flat bars gives me the gear and bike control I need. The GP5L bar ends on my flat bars give me enough leeway to lower my profile against the wind where necessary.

 The requirements for riding a slower laiden touring bike on less complicated routes, and moving to the drops for less wind resistance for longer periods when carrying heavy loads , might suit having drop bars without the shifter immediately to hand. I don’t know because I don’t do fully loaded touring. However, I do know that for my type of riding I didn’t like moving my hand off the tops of the drop bars and the potential loss of control that could ensue.
 
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on December 31, 2023, 05:14:17 PM
I've been toying with the idea of fitting drop bars on my Rohloff bike to try to reduce the wind drag so the comments above are useful.
I think there's lots of reasons why people would choose the bars that suit them, but I'm not convinced the old theories about aerodynamics are still relevant.  I can get myself as low on my straight bars as I ever could on drops.  I frequently ride  in groups where I'm tucked in more than some of my companions with drop bars, some of whom I've never seen use the drops.  For me, the limiting factors are flexibility, physique, fitness and age.  I could maybe improve those, except age, and I'd still expect to be able to get as low on straights as drops.
You could take this all the way up to the professional sharp end. The now banned puppy paws position is easily replicated on straight bars with inboard mini bar ends,  In time trials, where aerodynamics are of the utmost importance, no one uses drop bars.  Even on a solo breakaway you're more likely to see a rider forward on the hoods than in the drops,  there are exceptions, but when you see a pro in the drops it's more likely to be about power transfer than aerodynamics.  Some of this might be fashion, but it's all tested to the nth degree.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on December 31, 2023, 05:53:16 PM
I used to detest drop bars, used the drops no more than 5 percent of the time.

Then I lost about 15 percent of my body weight, most of that was from the abdomen.  And suddenly riding in the drops was much more comfortable.

Last spring I signed up for a 200k brevet, the forecast was no more than about 15 km/hr winds, but at the start it was clear that the forecast was quite wrong.  First 80 km was pushing into a really strong head wind.  A few times per hour I would sit more upright for a few minutes, but rode about 90 percent of that first 40 percent of the brevet in the drops.

The tops of my drop bars are about the same height as the top of the saddle. So, when I am riding in the drops, I am probably more upright than a pro cyclist is when they are on the hoods, as their bars are exceptionally low. 

Each of us has our own opinions, that is mine.  The stronger the headwind, the more valuable the drop bars are to me. 

But I certainly understand that some do not like using the drops.  A friend of mine used to ride with drop bars, never used the drops.  So, he converted one of his bikes to the bars in the photo, I think they are called bull horn bars.  Note his bar end shifters on the ends.  This is on his touring bike.  His hand positions are very similar to riding on the hoods on drop bars.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 31, 2023, 09:06:39 PM
I think there's lots of reasons why people would choose the bars that suit them, but I'm not convinced the old theories about aerodynamics are still relevant.  I can get myself as low on my straight bars as I ever could on drops.  I frequently ride  in groups where I'm tucked in more than some of my companions with drop bars, some of whom I've never seen use the drops.  For me, the limiting factors are flexibility, physique, fitness and age.  I could maybe improve those, except age, and I'd still expect to be able to get as low on straights as drops.
I find that the lower I get my head down with my flat bars then the more my elbows stick out. My recent bike build with drop bars seems to be about 5% faster than my Rohloff bike with flat bars. That may not all be due to reduction of wind drag as a new derailleur drivetrain could well be more efficient than a Rohloff hub + a chainglider but I feel that cycling into the wind is less effort. I spend most of my time on the hoods and agree that being in the drops doesn't give much further improvement, perhaps because the bars are fairly high (top roughly at saddle level). Hands on hoods (with instant access to gears and brakes) and with elbows tucked in should be a lower drag position than flat bars and it feels that way. The narrower the bars then the lower the drag but also less lever arm for controlling the steering. Should I assign my Rohloff bike for use with more load and/or rougher ground conditions then it makes sense to leave it with flat bars.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on December 31, 2023, 09:10:50 PM
But I certainly understand that some do not like using the drops.  A friend of mine used to ride with drop bars, never used the drops.  So, he converted one of his bikes to the bars in the photo, I think they are called bull horn bars.  Note his bar end shifters on the ends.  This is on his touring bike.  His hand positions are very similar to riding on the hoods on drop bars.
That's an interesting photo. The handlebar configuration would work with a Rohloff hub using modified brifters and the Gebla Rohbox.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: DIAGMONKEY on January 02, 2024, 12:25:36 AM
I find this quite a useful tool for predicting my average speed when using different configurations... My two bikes are quite different.

http://bikecalculator.com/

If you change the variables it gives a pretty good indication of how much faster or slower you are likely to be.

For me, there is a very slight speed advantage to drop bars on a faster road based touring bike.  I do use the drops, but mostly when descending because I feel it offers better braking performance when compared with braking from the hoods.

In the end my fitness level makes way more difference to my average speed than the bike or any single component choice. My lighter bike feels a lot faster, unfortunately Strava shows me my average speed only increases by a relatively small amount maybe a couple of miles per hour.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on January 02, 2024, 03:13:31 AM
...
That's an interesting photo. The handlebar configuration would work with a Rohloff hub using modified brifters and the Gebla Rohbox.

If you want to use brifters and do not want to use drops, you could saw off the drops.  But it would look really weird.

He did saw off the drops and used brifters.  He wanted to have an extremely light bike for good reason, he was going for time with a lot of climbing.
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/ronan-mclaughlin-everesting-bike
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: JohnR on January 02, 2024, 04:14:41 PM
If you want to use brifters and do not want to use drops, you could saw off the drops.  But it would look really weird.

He did saw off the drops and used brifters.  He wanted to have an extremely light bike for good reason, he was going for time with a lot of climbing.
https://www.bikeradar.com/features/ronan-mclaughlin-everesting-bike
Thanks for the interesting article. I don't like excess weight but won't go to that extreme!
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: PH on January 06, 2024, 04:37:14 PM
My point about bar shape and aerodynamics may have been lost or misunderstood, maybe a picture will better illustrate it (No, this isn't me  :o)

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9d7a1d_5a8a28eaab86c541c2dd84c4d7605f45.jpeg/v1/fill/w_356,h_508,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9d7a1d_5a8a28eaab86c541c2dd84c4d7605f45.jpeg)

It isn't the shape of the bar that matters, it's where it enables you to hold a position.  I have no argument with those for whom that's a drop bar, only with those who jump to that conclusion because they think it's the only way or that's what everyone else does.
Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: mickeg on January 06, 2024, 06:12:07 PM
My point about bar shape and aerodynamics may have been lost or misunderstood, maybe a picture will better illustrate it (No, this isn't me  :o)

(https://static.wixstatic.com/media/9d7a1d_5a8a28eaab86c541c2dd84c4d7605f45.jpeg/v1/fill/w_356,h_508,al_c,q_80,usm_0.66_1.00_0.01,enc_auto/9d7a1d_5a8a28eaab86c541c2dd84c4d7605f45.jpeg)

It isn't the shape of the bar that matters, it's where it enables you to hold a position.  I have no argument with those for whom that's a drop bar, only with those who jump to that conclusion because they think it's the only way or that's what everyone else does.

Your example is a good one, he is quite aero shaped without using drop bars.

I never bend my elbows that much.  In the attached photo, my hands are on the bar tops, but even if I was riding on the drops I would not be leaning forward anywhere as much as your example, as my arms would have little bend at the elbows.  I also have a visor on my helmet that would prevent me from seeing if I was as far forward as your example.  Photo is on my titanium touring bike, not a Thorn.


Title: Re: Mercury or Nomad MK3 700c
Post by: SteveM on January 15, 2024, 03:34:07 PM
I have both the Mercury Mk III and the Nomad Mk II.  The Mercury has noticeably shorter chain stays, and is less stiff than the Nomad.  I toured on the Merc but I was limited for weight and that caused a little stress. The Nomad is a tank and can handle anything.  It has much wider tires and that softens the ride quite a lot.  I have Shwalbe Duremes and they are really good. 

The Mercury is a lot faster on the road but they are different bikes designed for different things really.  The Merc would be a great day ride or Audax bike, the Nomad is a ‘go to’ for pannier based touring.  Both gorgeous bikes in my opinion.  I love them both.  But IMO - Merc is a day ride, light tourer and the Nomad is the beast of burden.

Both mine have the Rohloff and I am never going back you will not regret it.”