Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => Transmission => Topic started by: seligsohn on July 02, 2022, 12:36:15 PM
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I have had a Rohloff on my tandem for 13 years. It functions perfectly and we have covered about 12000 miles. Every year I make an oil change. Recent oil changes have led to the oil leaking quite badly but the gear stll functions perfectly. This time, I came to changing the oil and although I added 25 mL cleaning fluid, when I drained the hub after a mile or so ride, very lttle cleaning fluid came out! I am leaving it for a few hours to see if any more drains out. But I am curious to know where the cleaning fluid has gone?! Very little has leaked out. I shall continue with removing what cleaning fluid I can and then add the new oil. Has anyone else using Rohloff had this experience??
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My method is to use the filling syringe to suck the oil out after (a) connecting the syringe (with the plunger half out so the syringe contains some air) to the filling hole; (b) turning the wheel so the hole is at the bottom of the hub; (c) waiting a few minutes for any oil to drain towards the hole then (d) push in the plunger to blow the air in the syringe into the hub and then pull the plunger to try to suck any oil out. I do my oil changes on a warm day so the oil flows better. At my last oil change none of the normal oil in the hub wanted to come out but I extracted as much dirty cleaning oil as I had inserted clean oil.
There's plenty more discussion about oil changes at http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13327.0 .
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How odd, it you put it in and it hasn't come out it must still be in there! I think you'd notice if more than a few ml had leaked in a short time.
You do sometimes get a situation where the pressure differences stop it coming out, I'd be tempted to use another 5ml or so, put it in, turn the wheels in the appropriate gear (Rather than ride it) and see what you can get out. I try and leave it to drain overnight, but in reality I think it's all out in the first couple of hours.
As for the leaking having become worse over time - My oldest hub (2004) is like this, I use the method described in the Thorn booklet of adding the oil and then withdrawing most (I forget the numbers, they're in the pdf) There's not much left in to leak. When this hub was in my most used bike I had some concern that it was letting water in, it would over time leak more than I'd added. I was considering sending it away for the seals to be replaced, but now it doesn't see so much bad weather I'll probably not bother.
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Every year I make an oil change. Recent oil changes have led to the oil leaking quite badly but the gear stll functions perfectly.
No need to panic yet. Your Rohloff is protected by what remains of the old running oil and also by the cleaning oil which didn’t come out. The cleaning oil is itself a running oil, prescribed for extreme cold conditions. In future, regardless of what you get out of the box in cleaning oil plus residual old All Seasons Oil, use 16ml of All-Seasons Oil (which is already a third more than Rohloff puts in new boxes) and if the leaking is cured or much decreased, you’ve solved your problem. If the leaking remains at the same level, it would probably be smart at least to call Thorn or even to write to Rohloff in Germany.
But be sure you’re not dealing with the effects of condensation caused by temperature change. I had a case of bad leaking under my bike once, when my Rohloff was new. After I stopped panicking, I tasted the suspiciously clear fluid and discovered it was the result of a change of temperature, condensation, water.
I’ve never heard of a meticulous owner like you suffering a broken gearbox for lack of lubrication. I suppose it isn’t impossible but the likelihood appears to be galactically remote. In any event, it can’t happen to you because the oil that matters sticks to the gears and if the bike is serviced on time, any loose oil sloshing about and perhaps out past seals designed to keep dust out rather than oil in, is surplus to requirements.
Good luck!
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I’ve done a similar mileage from new in benign riding conditions over 8 years and have had no abnormal oil leaks. The hub has had 8 DIY oil changes plus one by Thorn when the hub was converted to disk brake and required a new seal on the non drive side as part of that conversion.
I follow the instructions as per the leaflet that accompanies the Rohloff oil change kits which is also in their owners manual here
https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/workshop/oil-change
Note that Rohloff draw attention that overfilling can increase risk of leaks. MIGHT it be possible that the temptation to put more oil in after a leak is perpetuating the problem? 🙂
Occasionally after inserting the 25ml of new oil I have forgotten to “Draw out approx. 25ml of air to keep the pressure correct inside and therefore, avoid oil seeping back out, when removing the filling tube “ although I haven’t noticed any leakage as a result.
I don’t know if you’ve got the external gear mech version, but not greasing the inside of the box every few hundred miles I’ve read somewhere, might make seepage from the breather hole in the hollow axle more noticeable?
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It's worth mentioning that a country’s official Rohloff service center can do a full cleaning and re-oiling of the hub internals. If you have had the hub for 13 years already and you are worried about the state of the lubrication inside, perhaps you might consider it worth paying for this service, though 12,000 miles is on the low side for a Rohloff.
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... I am leaving it for a few hours to see if any more drains out. ...
We are waiting to hear.
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seals designed to keep dust out rather than oil in
Andre. Is that actually true or your opinion?
The reason that I ask is that I'm always surprised at the number of Rohloff owners who complain of oil leaks. Bearing in mind the very small amount of oil inside the hub, it seems to me that the oil seals are very poor 'seals' It makes more sense (to me at least) if they are MAINLY there to keep dust out.
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Page 32 of this document is worth a read.
And I’ve discovered where I read about the need to regularly grease inside the ex box to prevent leaks! (The Rohloff Owers Guide recommends doing this every 500km.)
http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/ThornLivingWithARohloff.pdf
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And I’ve discovered where I read about the need to regularly grease inside the ex box to prevent leaks! (The Rohloff Owers Guide recommends doing this every 500km.)
I must admit that though I've read this several times, I've never understood it. The part Rohloff recommend greasing every 500km is the hub side of the pully on the cable box where it attaches to the transfer box, this is to keep it functioning smoothly. Where does the idea of an oil seal come from? For oil to leak from this joint it would have already left the hub, trapping it in the transfer box isn't going to do any good. If you open up that box you'll see it's pretty obviously not a route for escaping oil. It might be advantages to grease the interface between the transfer box and hub, maybe this is what Andy Blance was recommending, it's unhelpful that he uses the term EX box without being clear if it refers to the cable box or transfer box, though Rohloff do no better, referring to the same part as "transfer box" or "gear mech", either way it's only the pully on the cable box that forms part of Rohloff's maintenance advice.
EDIT - There's a video here on how to convert from internal to external mech, the space behind the axle plate is packed with grease (2:25), maybe this is what was meant? Though it makes no mention of oil sealing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGNFZjavXcI
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I think most of my oil loss is from the EX box area, that usually has a coating of oil on it. I have not filled mine with grease, I only have enough grease in it to lube the cable spool.
Even if it was meant to use grease as an oil seal, oil is a good solvent for dissolving grease, so I am not going to try filling up my EX box with grease to stop any leakage.
I think I had some extra oil leakage in the photo, more than normal. I changed the oil before I got on an airplane and I suspect that the non-drive side was oriented down in the airplane hold for one or both of my flights before I started my tour.
I just wish all this oil leakage landed on my chain instead, there it would have done some good.
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I think most of my oil loss is from the EX box area, that usually has a coating of oil on it.
Isn't there a hole inside the Rohloff axle meant to sweat oil? I assume the oil came from there and dripped down onto the EX box area via the quick release, because the QR also gets some oil on it.
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The purpose of packing the EXT box with grease is to exclude water from the matching shaft and cable terminations, the brass nut you see bikeside when you take the cover off, on which the hex socket inside the cover at the end of the cables fits in order to change the gears.
I have no idea why these small parts couldn’t have been made of stainless steel.
I fill the EXT box on my bike once a year or every 5000km* with green stuff from Phil, the famous bottom bracket maker in the States, but suspect a good marine grease will do as well. Martin mentioned a brand of marine grease he used on his bikes, though whether for this specific purpose is another matter.
The 5000 above is not a typo for 500. I mean 5000km/3000m. My bike is in undemanding use and rarely more than superficially wet and in the beginning I inspected Phil’s green stuff every 1000km, but now I know it lasts a year in the EXT box, no problemo. Be smart to consider the conditions in which your bike is used before you emulate my practice. In particular, I never ride it through water as deep as or deeper than the hub, and my bike never gets so dirty that I need to take a hose to it because even the smallest farm lanes around here are blacktop.
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The purpose of packing the EXT box...
I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about? I thought you were an engineer ;D
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.
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Isn't there a hole inside the Rohloff axle meant to sweat oil? I assume the oil came from there and dripped down onto the EX box area via the quick release, because the QR also gets some oil on it.
That may or may not be the case, I don't know. I do know that my nutted hub leaks the same amount as my QR ones and it gathers in the same place.
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I think most of my oil loss is from the EX box area, that usually has a coating of oil on it.
Isn't there a hole inside the Rohloff axle meant to sweat oil? I assume the oil came from there and dripped down onto the EX box area via the quick release, because the QR also gets some oil on it.
Yes, I usually have a lot of oil on my skewer. Have discussed that on this forum before, Dan has not observed oil on his skewer where I have. But, i am not having oil come out of the other side of my hub and if it was all coming from the hollow axle, I would expect it to come out of the axle on both sides.
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The purpose of packing the EXT box...
I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about? I thought you were an engineer ;D
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.
Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box. Put the rotary control in either gear 1 or gear 14. Undo the thumbscrew, take the lid off, in the section remaining on the bike see a hollow with a brass nut right in the middle of it -- you can't miss it which is why I mentioned in the part of my post you didn't bother to read before complaining -- and the remains of grease, thoroughly wipe out the grease, pack the void with new grease, put the cover back on (you may need to wiggle the rotary gear change veeeery slightly), do up the thumbscrew, wipe the grease that squeezed out around the cover sealing it to the edge. It's real simple and a bunch of German technical terms will just confuse a small service item which has no need for a litany of artificial difficulties.
This service was discussed in more detail in February 2020 at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.msg102022#msg102022 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.msg102022#msg102022).
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Dan has not observed oil on his skewer where I have.
As it happened, I did a general wipe-down and compressed air blowoff of my Nomad this weekend to remove dust and paid special attention to the area around the Rohloff's rear axle and EX click-box to check for leaks. It was as clean and oil/mist-free as during our last discussion some time ago. I just dashed out to the garage and took a couple flash photos, which would reveal any oil leaking or misting and you can see the results below.
I pumped my Rohloff EX shift-box full of Phil Waterproof grease about six months after getting the bike in 2012...and have not needed to add any since as there has been no discernible loss. The grease formed an effective seal against the alkali dust I commonly encounter in the deserts of the American Great Basin where I often like to tour and it has prevented any galvanic corrosion between non-noble dissimilar metals, which initially concerned me as a possibility. To make clear, I removed the cover on the EX shift cable-box and pumped the interior cavity where the cable wraps around the pulley full of grease...and lubricated the little geartrain beneath in the transfer box. It i important to note Phil Waterproof grease is not like others. It tends to form an oily surface under load while remaining more greasy in a passive state, where it provides good sealing at perimeter seals. Shifting has remained smooth and consistent since then and without grease migration through local temperature extremes that have ranged from a low of -24.4°C to a high of 44.4°C. In the summertime desert, it has withstood ambient highs of 51.1°C with ground temps of 60°C when I occasionally laid the bike on its side when the surface was too soft to support the loaded bike on its Click-Stand, even with the end resting in the tennis ball with a hole drilled in it I use on soft ground.
This topic of whether, how, and how much to grease the EX shift-box comes up periodically and there seems to be no real consensus in practice among owner-users and sometimes even among service centers (in the case of Rohloff Australia, whose recommendations contradict my preference to fill the 'box with grease) . Their view and others along with photos of my filled EX cable-box appear in the following links for those who might be interested...
Photos, description of Phil-filled click-box:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg36175#msg36175
Discussion around Rohloff EX-box maintenance:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12877.msg96403#msg96403
Rohloff Australia's stated "no grease" view:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=13718.msg102011#msg102011
More discussions of Ex-box grease, kind, frequency:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12877.msg96413#msg96413
...and photos from the last outside view of my hub in 2018 here...
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg95429#msg95429
Views taken today attached below.
Best, Dan.
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I fill the EXT box on my bike once a year or every 5000km* with green stuff from Phil, the famous bottom bracket maker in the States, but suspect a good marine grease will do as well. Martin mentioned a brand of marine grease he used on his bikes, though whether for this specific purpose is another matter.
I have the internal gear change version of the Rohloff on my Raven Tour and Raven Sport Tour.
But I fitted a Rohloff with the EXT box to one of my Bromptons in 2021.
I put some of the (green) marine grease I use for most bicycle applications on the parts visible underneath the EXT box before fitting it, then smeared a fairly large amount over the parts inside the EXT box, without filling it completely.
The Brompton is not going anywhere near any alkali deserts. The exposed chain, which is much closer to the ground than on a hub-geared large-wheel bike, wouldn't last long in those conditions, so I am not too worried about dust getting inside.
During the first annual oil change a few weeks ago I took the EXT box off and also undid the screws on the cover to check the grease inside and underneath. It looked OK to me so I just left it as it was.
So I have noted (in my maintenance sheet for this bike) to simply inspect the EXT box/hub interface and the inside of the EXT box at the same time as I do the annual oil change, and only regrease these parts if necessary.
This inspection is very quick to do, the only thing that might be problematic is if the parts inside the EXT box move while doing it, which could put the gear selection out of kilter.
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The purpose of packing the EXT box...
I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about? I thought you were an engineer ;D
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.
Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box.
I think I'll give up, when I were an apprentice you'd get a clip round the back of the head for mis-naming parts and another harder one for claiming it was obvious what you meant.
When I converted from internal to external shifting, it added TWO black boxes. If it's so obvious which one is the EX box, would someone explain where this idea comes from that greasing it will somehow prevent oil leaking out from the hub? That might be the case if what's being referred to is the transfer box, but obviously not if it's referring to the cable box. This thread, and the one linked, are clear evidence that there is some confusion here, dismissing it as obvious isn't helpful.
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... I fitted a Rohloff with the EXT box to one of my Bromptons in 2021.
I put some of the (green) marine grease I use for most bicycle applications on the parts visible underneath the EXT box before fitting it, then smeared a fairly large amount over the parts inside the EXT box, without filling it completely.
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Perhaps I should add grease between the hub and EX box mechanism. As I mentioned above, oil is a good solvent to dissolve grease, but if the volume is completely full of grease, perhaps the oil would take a long time (years) to dissolve it?
I bought my hub and Nomad Mk II frame separate from each other. I had to remove the EX mechanism to change the position, thus I have had that area open before.
My bike tour in 2019, I flew to my destination. Flew with the hub rinsed with cleaning oil and drained, then added the Rohloff oil at my destination. Initially my hub was very quiet in gear 7, but over the next several days my hub sounded noisier in gear 7, I suspect that the excess lube oil was already dripping out of the hub over a few days.
Thanks for posting.
I generally do not like to fill anything on a bike with grease, as I sometimes ride my bike in winter in temperatures as low as minus 5 to minus 10 degrees C. But if it would reduce the rate that my oil leaks out, it might be worth having some stiff grease to deal with when shifting.
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Perhaps I should add grease between the hub and EX box mechanism. As I mentioned above, oil is a good solvent to dissolve grease, but if the volume is completely full of grease, perhaps the oil would take a long time (years) to dissolve it?
The marine grease I use is not particularly thick - NLGI 1.5, or sometimes NLGI 2. So if oil leaks onto it, it would dissolve fairly quickly.
But if it would reduce the rate that my oil leaks out, it might be worth having some stiff grease to deal with when shifting.
Oil leaking out doesn't bother me, so long as it doesn't leak too fast. So far, this isn't the case on any of my Rohloff hubs. Unless they get caked in mud, I just wipe them clean when I do the annual oil change.
I am used to oil leaks, it is a feature of Sturmey-Archer 3 and 5 speed hubs from before the mid/early 1980s. On these I try and wipe it off before it gets down the spokes to the wheel rims. With Sturmey-Archer hubs, the idea is to add a few drops of oil at regular intervals rather than a fairly large amount once a year as for the Rohloff.
The advantage is that the slow exit of oil more or less stops any entrance of dust and water, at least in Atlantic coast conditions. I suppose this also works for the Rohloff.
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Possibly stating the obvious, but.....
For anyone with a disc braked Rohloff remember that both the transfer box and the EXT (coiled cable) box are millimetres away from the disc rotor. If you fill either with a grease/oil that could become 'runny' then it will probably end up on the rotor.
This happened to my bike. It was obvious that I had a problem with the rear brake, but it wasn't IMMEDIATELY obvious what was wrong - no tell tale drips on the floor whatsoever. It was only when I ran my finger along the bottom of the EXT box that I felt a wetness that must have found it's way onto the rotor and then the pads.
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Possibly stating the obvious, but.....
For anyone with a disc braked Rohloff remember that both the transfer box and the EXT (coiled cable) box are millimetres away from the disc rotor. If you fill either with a grease/oil that could become 'runny' then it will probably end up on the rotor.
Not a problem at present on my Brompton as I use the stock calliper brakes.
I have a CSS rim with the special black CSS compatible pads and rear brake performance is plenty good enough at the moment, braking is limited by the adhesion of the relatively narrow 16" tyre, not by the brake itself.
I did specify a disc-compatible Rohloff hub in case I ever want to use a disc brake in the future, so will bear this possible issue in mind.
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I have an old Sturmey Archer 3 speed, date code is in the 1960s, the previous owner clearly added way too much oil to that as the oil got into the drum brake mechanism and contaminated the pads.
I think I might have already posted this, but on Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs with drum brakes I use a very thick grease as a "barrier" to reduce the possibility of the gear lubricant getting through to the drum brake.
The stuff I use is called LPS paste, and dates from at least 30 years ago, maybe quite a bit older. I also use it for outdoor gate hinges, where it dries out at the surface and ressembles tar. On gates it lasts for several years, despite the relatively wet climate where I live.
The Sturmey Archer 3 speed drum brake hubs I have are the more recent grease lubricated version, the very fluid NLGI-0 grease used for the gears is probably slightly less likely to migrate than liquid oil.
So I use 3 different greases in these hubs - NLGI 1.5 or 2 marine grease in the two right-hand bearings, NLGI 0 semi-fluid grease for the gear internal and LPS paste in the left-hand bearing.
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The purpose of packing the EXT box...
I stopped reading there, what part are you talking about? I thought you were an engineer ;D
The external gear mechanism is made of of two primary parts, a transfer box and a cable box, unless you use the correct terms you're leaving the reader to guess what part you're packing with grease. You may think it's obvious, but we've had long threads before where people are talking at cross purposes.
Oh, it is obvious. If you don't see a small black box on your hub, you don't have an EXT box and you're talking about an internal shifter, a different animal, which Thorn favoured in years gone by. If you see a small black box with a large thumbscrew, that's the EXT box.
I think I'll give up, when I were an apprentice you'd get a clip round the back of the head for mis-naming parts and another harder one for claiming it was obvious what you meant.
When I converted from internal to external shifting, it added TWO black boxes. If it's so obvious which one is the EX box, would someone explain where this idea comes from that greasing it will somehow prevent oil leaking out from the hub? That might be the case if what's being referred to is the transfer box, but obviously not if it's referring to the cable box. This thread, and the one linked, are clear evidence that there is some confusion here, dismissing it as obvious isn't helpful.
There’s no helping those who won’t see. You’re the one spreading confusion here, Paul.* Once more, the EXT box is a single unit which splits in two. I bypassed the confusion caused by “naming parts” which then require a long description, creating further confusion, by saying the part with the hollow with the brass nut in it is where the grease goes. But you were so intent on blaming me for not naming the parts that you didn’t even read to where I conclusively differentiated the parts. I’ve worked with a lot of time-served craftsmen (all kinds that an industrial designer needs for prototyping, hundreds in the general advertising, blockmaking, fine art printing and publishing setting specialties, together reprographics) in my time, and none of the good ones ever mentioned his apprenticeship to me.
If it is good enough for Herr Rohloff to call both parts together the EXT box, it’s good enough for me. If you don’t like it, take it up with him.
In all this fuss about naming the parts, the newby is being put off without the slightest enlightenment. “What is being transferred, please?” And when he is told that all that is happening is that lengthwise motion of cables is being turned 90 degrees into a perpendicular motion, he says, “Gee, all this, for that?”
*Actually, if it weren’t such a waste of time, it would be comical. “But PH says there are two black boxes,” the innocent newby tells the specialist behind the counter at SJS, “so where’s my other black box?” The specialist, enjoindered by good manners and his boss not to be rude to anyone, takes the EXT box and undoes the thumbscrew. “Here we go,” says the specialist, “two boxes. Are you happy now?” The newby looks doubtfully at the two parts of the EXT box. “But if they don’t have lids, they aren’t two boxes.” The specialist has had enough. “Why don’t you go ask Andre Jute to explain to you how the Buddha said one black box is the lid to the other black box, making one universal box without number.” When I put it in script or a book I’ll call it The Tragedy of the Black Box(es) and send you a couple of beers for your part in the gestation of the idea.
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I have an old Sturmey Archer 3 speed, date code is in the 1960s, the previous owner clearly added way too much oil to that as the oil got into the drum brake mechanism and contaminated the pads.
I think I might have already posted this, but on Sturmey Archer 3 speed hubs with drum brakes I use a very thick grease as a "barrier" to reduce the possibility of the gear lubricant getting through to the drum brake.
The stuff I use is called LPS paste, and dates from at least 30 years ago, maybe quite a bit older. I also use it for outdoor gate hinges, where it dries out at the surface and ressembles tar. On gates it lasts for several years, despite the relatively wet climate where I live.
The Sturmey Archer 3 speed drum brake hubs I have are the more recent grease lubricated version, the very fluid NLGI-0 grease used for the gears is probably slightly less likely to migrate than liquid oil.
So I use 3 different greases in these hubs - NLGI 1.5 or 2 marine grease in the two right-hand bearings, NLGI 0 semi-fluid grease for the gear internal and LPS paste in the left-hand bearing.
Thanks for posting, but I am just adding a few drops of oil at a time, maybe two or three times a year. I add the oil not through the oil cap in the shell, but in the hollow axle for the gear change chain. I only use that bike for less than 50 miles a year, short distance trips to the grocery store.
When I bought that bike, used from one of my college professors, he bundled his wife's bike with it. Her bike had been missing a part for quite a few years, thus had very little use. In the 1980s, I discarded the frame from his wife's bike, but kept most of the other parts. I actually have her wheels on the bike I am riding because of the problems with his bike's drum brake. Both bikes shared wheels and a few other parts.
I did not ride that bike at all for about 30 years, in the 1980s I was unable to buy 650b tires and at that time did not even know what 650b tires were. But, dug out the bike last year and put some cheap 650b tires on it. And have occasionally used it for a quick trip to the grocery store.
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I am just adding a few drops of oil at a time, maybe two or three times a year. I add the oil not through the oil cap in the shell, but in the hollow axle for the gear change chain. I only use that bike for less than 50 miles a year, short distance trips to the grocery store.
Very sparing and occasional oil lubrication is a good strategy for a low mileage bike with an oil-lubricated 3-speed and drum brake.
My "3 different greases" strategy worked well for a moderate mileage visitor bike (about 1,000 km/year) and a low mileage spare bike (about 100 km/year).
I occasionally stripped down both hubs to renew the greases. Less often than once a year, and even less often on the low mileage bike.
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*Actually, if it weren’t such a waste of time, it would be comical. “But PH says there are two black boxes,” the innocent newby tells the specialist behind the counter at SJS, “so where’s my other black box?” The specialist, enjoindered by good manners and his boss not to be rude to anyone, takes the EXT box and undoes the thumbscrew. “Here we go,” says the specialist, “two boxes. Are you happy now?” The newby looks doubtfully at the two parts of the EXT box. “But if they don’t have lids, they aren’t two boxes.” The specialist has had enough. “Why don’t you go ask Andre Jute to explain to you how the Buddha said one black box is the lid to the other black box, making one universal box without number.” When I put it in script or a book I’ll call it The Tragedy of the Black Box(es) and send you a couple of beers for your part in the gestation of the idea.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-external-gear-mech-kit-8213/
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So it's the Ex cable box that needs a little grease and not the Ex transfer box (item 5 of https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/maintenance/maintanance-tips. Has anyone done maintenance on the transfer box?
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So it's the Ex cable box that needs a little grease and not the Ex transfer box (item 5 of https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/handbook/speedhub/maintenance/maintanance-tips.
Yes, that diagram and other instruction and videos are very clear what's meant.
The confusion comes when the statement that greasing the "EX Box" will reduce oil leaking, is interpreted as being the same thing. Quite clearly it isn't, for a start in your linked diagram it would involve the leaked oil flowing upwards!
Has anyone done maintenance on the transfer box?
When ever I've had an axle plate off I've refreshed the grease as in the fitting video linked above (This is I think the only place where an application of grease might reduce leaking), sometimes it's looked like it needs it more than others. I might consider doing it on a service if I hadn't had the axle plate off for some years. I have opened a Transfer Box, there was nothing that looked like it would benefit from maintenance, so unless something gives my cause, I won't do so again.
I used to pack the cable box with marine grease, I've stopped doing that and notice no difference, I do apply some around the adjustment screws, though even that is probably more than necessary.
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Here is a photo of the cable part of the EXT box packed out with Phil's Waterproof Grease before being refitted.
(http://coolmainpress.com/bikebits2012/Rohlof%20EXT%20Service%20-%20Phil%20Waterproof%20Grease/rohloff_ext_klickbox_packed_with_phil_waterproof_grease.jpg)
It is from an article, with several more photos, I published in 2012 at:
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html)
and linked on this forum on 1 November 2012 at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5049.msg26349#msg26349 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=5049.msg26349#msg26349)
Dan published a similar photo showing the EXT box packed out with Phil's waterproof grease on 13 March 2013 at
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg36175#msg36175 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg36175#msg36175)
The other photos in my article at
http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html (http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGRohloffEXTservice.html)
show the two parts of the EXT box cleaned out before grease packing, the water-repelling effect of filling the hollow so that mating squeezes out grease between the mating surfaces (in this case the Finish Line Teflon I used before I got the Phil Faith), and for those who haven't seen one before the EXT box parts refitted.
For Tiberius -- thanks for the warning --, one photo in the article gives an indication of how thin the Teflon got in probably about 3000km though I'm happy to say none landed on the rims of my bike, which are like large discs braked by Magura's Rim Hydraulics (the EXT box gets wiped twice a year at most, so if any leaked out, I would have known because there is nowhere for it to go except on the rim). The Phil grease lasts much better.
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Is this Phil grease marine grease by another name?
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OK, without writing Andre's next chapter for him, I'm going to point out that when Andre says "I fill the EXT box on my bike once a year" he's not doing what others may consider to be packing the cable box with grease, it's not what I would have understood it to mean, it isn't the same thing as Dan does:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=4523.msg36175#msg36175
I'm not advising anyone how they should maintain their bike, the correct way is whatever makes you confident, plus usage and circumstances differ. I am going to bang on (And on and on and on... Ed) about the importance of accuracy when communicating things which others may wish to follow.
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Is this Phil grease marine grease by another name?
Only in the most general terms in that it is waterproof and very corrosion resistant.
Phil (Wood, no relation or financial connection despite the surname...just a happy longtime customer despite their eye-popping price increases over the years) Waterproof Grease is a proprietary formula made especially for the company. It offers extreme corrosion resistance, has a very dark green color that can stain light-colored paint over time and a wonderful smell that will tempt you to taste it (don't). It has several unusual characteristics I have come to value over the years: 1) It is stable over a wide range of temperatures and rarely migrates, 2) It tends to stay greasy at the perimeter to make and maintain a good water/dust seal while becoming oily at the bearings for minimal resistance, 3) It turns a much lighter minty green when exposed to water over time, providing a visual cue it needs to be refreshed.
After riding in the corrosive volcanic ash of Washington state's actively erupting Mt St Helens in 1980, it was the only bearing lubricant that provided me 100% protection against corrosion. The other lubes used on my bike at the time served as solvents for the acids in the ash and flash-rusted in a matter of hours, making for a very expensive tour. It is my lube of choice for riding in the alkali dust of America's Great Basin deserts, particularly Black Rock in summertime when the talc-fine dust can blow into whiteout conditions.
Best, Dan.
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Is this Phil grease marine grease by another name?
I see Dan has already answered the question. Phil's Waterproof Grease, really amazing stuff, could probably do as an emergency marine grease on a very small boat, if the owner could afford it. Mine was a gift from Anto (lately Jags on this board), facilitated by Dan for export to Ireland, but I know the price in general to be "eye-popping", as Dan says. I have Lapis Lazuli (a blue pigment ground from pricey semi-precious stones in ultra-rare supply) which is cheaper than Phil's! On a real ship? Phil's will cost more than the engines...
But for bicycle use, I don't know of anything to beat Phil's for function, convenience, cleanliness and good niff too -- it's a very fashionable grease; put a dab behind your ear when you run out of Eau Sauvage. Phil's certainly outlasts Teflon and Ceramic lubes which I also tried, for their basic cleanliness. (I hate Park's copper grease with a fervour as filthy stuff.) A tube of Phil's goes a long way because it lasts so long.
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Following the advice of the forum sages I bought my tube of the Phil grease a couple of years ago and have applied it both on the inside of the removable part of the ex-box (it will reduce the risk of problems caused by water entering along the cables) and where it connects to the fixed part. I found my tube on ebay from a UK seller but it is hard to find. I wonder if this green grease is similar https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08WTQCSJY but looks can deceive.
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I'm sticking with marine grease, most people would consider that to be overkill. Dan's volcanic ash may be a special case, but I can't imagine ever using my bike in harsher conditions, both in terms of wetness or corrosion, than a marine environment.
When using it as a barrier, you can see (And feel) if it's doing the job intended. the colour changing properties of Phil's sounds a useful feature, but my simple maintenance schedule is such that parts get re-greased frequently enough not to need it.
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I don't have an Ex-box on my Rohloff and feel left out of this topic. :(
My squeak from the EBB area has disappeared now that I am off the Orkney/Shetland Islands and back on the UK mainland .
However, should I use Phil's grease to lube the EBB, if I can locate some?
Up to now I've been using an old Castrol grease tin, 20+ years old but still on the firm side of runny.
Best
Matt, who has stopped squeaking.
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However, should I use Phil's grease to lube the EBB, if I can locate some?
I did mine and have had no squeaks.
Of course, I have not visited the Orkney/Shetland Islands. :D
However, any good waterproof grease or anti-seize should do in this application.
Best, Dan.
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I wonder if this green grease is similar https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08WTQCSJY but looks can deceive.
Not likely that what's in that tin is Phil's proprietary formulation; if it were, the makers would blare it out to the world right there on the lid of the tin all the more quickly to recover the stiff licensing fees for the gennie formula.
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Thanks folks, and Dan.
I am intrigued by the praise Phil's waterproof grease has received.
A quick UK eBay search revealed nothing this side of the pond. Only USA sellers with high postage ( & possible tax/ damage ) to UK.
However, I am visiting my son in New Jersey USA from 16 August to 6 September and plan to have a tube shipped to his address for my collection.
Is it in line with the ethos/etiquette rules of this group to offer to bring some back for members in UK?
Tube price was approximately £15.00
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/125340347215?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=kG0qU5wbRBC&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=6YPO-Z8xRdy&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
I'd only require cost/UK postage payment.
As always, respect group Admins decision.
Best
Matt
I
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USA is undergoing some high inflation at this time, do not be surprised if you are suddenly informed that the item you planned to order is suddenly much more costly. Virtually everything I buy is noticeably more expensive than it used to be. You do not really know what the cost will be until the order is placed. And then you do not know if they had it in stock until they ship it.
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Is it in line with the ethos/etiquette rules of this group to offer to bring some back for members in UK? ...I'd only require cost/UK postage payment. ...As always, respect group Admins decision.
In my view as a member and Admin for the Forum, this is a really grand and generous offer well in line with the positive and helpful community spirit so often displayed here. You're not making any profit, the product is not available locally, and it will ease acquisition and minimize costs for others. What's not to like? :)
Very thoughtful of you to ask first, Matt; thanks.
Best, Dan.
EDIT: By the way, Phil Waterproof grease is most commonly sold in bike shops in 3oz tubes. It is also available in 3oz/85g cartridges to fit (mini) grease guns (Phil make a really nice one at a surprisingly reasonable price) or in a more expensive but ultimately more economical "Mechanic's" 16oz/454g jar. It could be split but alone would last most individuals much longer than they likely have need. It is really intended for bike shops that will use it in greater volumes than the average home consumer. B'sides, it really needs to be repacked for easy application. I've had good luck using large-gauge needleless hypodermic syringes intended for veterinary use. For those wanting a really superb assembly oil, the very syrupy Phil Tenacious Oil is just the ticket. It makes a very poor chain lube in my view because while the formula prevents slinging and is very waterproof, it attracts a lot of dust, dirt, and grit.