Thorn Cycles Forum
Technical => General Technical => Topic started by: geocycle on May 18, 2016, 08:11:50 PM
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The steering on my RST feels a bit odd almost as if it's pulling to one side or the other. When I take the weight off by lifting the wheel off the ground and push the bars from side to side it is notchy not smooth. There is no play fore and aft. Headset bearings are the one area of my bike that I've never touched. Any tips? What tools do I need? If I have to replace the headset what do folk recommend? All advice gratefully received on this one.
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I have never tried to rebuild the headset on one of my Thorn bikes.
If yours is one of these, there might be a bit of help here.
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/110_NO.5.pdf
http://www.fullspeedahead.com/products/headsets/orbit-xl-ii-threadless-headset/
On one of my other bikes with a Cane Creek headset, I have twice taken the sealed bearing cartridges apart, cleaned them out, regreased them and put them back together. But I do not know if the Orbit bearings can be disassembled or not. If they can, don't lose any of the ball bearings, you want the same number when you are done as when you started.
I have no clue how much work you want to do or if you prefer to pay others to do the work. If you take it apart, make sure you keep all the parts in the right order. If the parts get mixed up, refer to the exploded diagram to get it sorted out.
If you need new parts, but if the cups that are pressed into the frame are ok, it is likely cheaper to get replacement parts and keep the same model. If you chang to a different headset brand or model, a shop will need to remove the old cups and press new ones in. The shop charge for that labor might cost as much as a good headset costs.
Also, if you go to a different make and model, a new race for the fork crown has to be installed by a shop.
Good luck.
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I'd be very interested in replies to this thread.
I thought I might have a problem with my headset since it felt notchy. It turned out to be the small bag I have fixed on the frame near the headset, rubbing.
But then I got to thinking about how long they last and what to look out for when they wear.
Do they go suddenly or slowly deteriorate?
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I have never had one go bad. But I never use a pressure washer to clean off a bike and never wash a bike upside down.
I assume (but could be wrong) that eventually the bearings start to feel notchy.
The two times I rebuilt a Cane Creek headset was that I bought it used, wanted to regrease it before I put it on my new 700c touring frame (non-Thorn) in 2004 since I did not know the history of that headset. That bike is now gone, I re-used the headset on a different frame this past winter and decided to rebuild it again before I brought it to the shop for them to install into the new frame. It gave me a good 10 years of wear, in addition to the unknown amount of wear that someone else put on it. Everything looked fine this past winter so I put it in a new frame.
I recall reading somewhere that small size frames wear out headsets much faster than large frames. The bearings are much closer to each other with a very short head tube, that probably puts more stress on the bearings. But I am not sure if that is relevant to the discussion here?
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barely worth mucking around with if it's fsa xl regularly see them for sale at around £15 last time i saw bearings advertised they were more than a new headset cost,
bit like printers,it cost all most as much for ink as it does to buy a new all in one scanner printer
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FSA-Orbit-XL-II-1-1-8-Road-MTB-Bike-Headset-RRP-45-/291024923930?hash=item43c26fed1a:g:MYgAAOSw3v5XI2K~ (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FSA-Orbit-XL-II-1-1-8-Road-MTB-Bike-Headset-RRP-45-/291024923930?hash=item43c26fed1a:g:MYgAAOSw3v5XI2K~)
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I suppose it is worth George's peace of mind to service a Cane Creek headset he bought second hand, but one of the better ones bought new should be good for life, meaning at least forever, unless you do constant circumnavigations in really adverse conditions.
If you do have to replace a headset, Humpert has a Cane Creek-made reissue of the Cane Creek S6 that, though a bit heavy, is a real blue sky tourer's headset, and at a better price than the Cane Creek-branded item ever got down to.
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If the headset in question is an Orbit XL II, bearings are available separately and just drop in. Replacement is easy: Just disassemble the unit leaving the cups installed, swap cartridge bearings, reassemble.
See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-headset-bearing-sealed-for-orbit-xlii-prod20944/?geoc=us
I bought one spare set of bearings sometime ago, then another whole spare headset when I found it was actually less costly:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-orbit-xl-2-1-1-8-inch-aheadset-prod3101/?geoc=us It would be as easy to rob the bearings out of this and not bother the installed cups.
The same bearings will fit the equivalent Cane Creek headset.
Best,
Dan.
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I've not had Aheadset type headsets long enough to have any issues with them, my experience of headsets is mainly with the old non-Aheadset type. These last a very long time if properly installed, adjusted and maintained (checked regularly to make sure they haven't worked loose, greased with waterproof grease every year or two). More than 40,000 kms on my two longest-serving bikes, which have Stronglight X-pattern roller-bearing headsets, but I have had very few problems with the cheaper all-steel ball-bearing models on other bikes.
As I rarely need to replace headsets I have never bothered to buy the special tools to install the frame cups/fork crown race. I borrow these tools from my LBS when necessary or get the LBS to install the headset if I think any machining needs to be done.
Headsets can wear very quickly if badly installed (too loose, too tight, not aligned properly) or if water gets in. I assume that this also applies for the Aheadset type.
I've just overhauled a neighbours bike (cheap mountain bike, hardly ridden at all). I got my LBS to replace the headset on this as it was badly notched, despite the very low use. The head tube ends had not been properly faced when the original headset was installed, so my LBS used their special cutter to machine the ends before fitting a new headset. Price was very reasonable - 20 euros for parts and labour.
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Thanks guys. My headset appears to be a hybrid! The lower section is labelled Cane Creek but the cap is FSA! I'd not noticed before. They came with the RST bought from from SJS as one of their 'quiet moment in the workshop' offerings and then built it up with the better parts from my raven tour. It's done about 6k miles. The raven tour had and Orbit XL which got no maintenance but was fine after 19k miles. I'll contact them to ask for advice, as you have mentioned they seem surprisingly cheap unless you go the full Chris King option. Videos on youtube make it look quite easy if you go for the preassmbled route, I'd had visions of small ball bearings all over the back yard.....
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Thanks guys. My headset appears to be a hybrid! The lower section is labelled Cane Creek but the cap is FSA! I'd not noticed before.
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I just looked at my Sherpa. The top bearing housing is labeled Cane Creek, no model listed. The bottom bearing housing is unlabeled. The stem cap is FSA. I am the second owner of this frame, thus the first owner may have made changes and it certainly would not surprise me if a stem cap got changed. (At times I have used a 1 1/4" stainless fender washer as a stem cap.) I bought the Sherpa fork and frame used in 2009, I just looked at the 2009 Sherpa brochure (digital version), there is no mention of headset make and model in the brochure but mine looks like the one in the brochure photos. But, none of the photos has a good close up photo of the headset.
When I look at the Cane Creek website, I do not see anything that looks like the one on my Sherpa, so I have no clue what model it is.
I wonder if someone at SJS can tell us what they used 6 to 8 years ago?
My Nomad (Spring 2013) has the Orbit XL II that I cited in my previous post above.
I mentioned above that I have rebuilt a Cane Creek a few times, that is the C-2 model. Fortunately I saved the PDF exploded diagram for it on my hard drive years ago, that also is not on Cane Creek web site any more. That model has bearing retainers that I can disassemble and re-grease the individual ball bearings.
... I'd had visions of small ball bearings all over the back yard.....
I think the manufacturers have that same vision of ball bearings rolling around the factory floor, so most things now seem to have cartridge bearings of some sort.
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Thanks Mick, that's interesting. In my case the hybridization was probably just SJS using up functional components, which is fine by me. The cap doesn't really affect the performance in any way. I also couldn't find the Cane Creek model. I'm currently leaning toward the FSA Orbit XLII linked by Dan, but will wait for advice from Somerset.
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Thanks Mick, that's interesting. In my case the hybridization was probably just SJS using up functional components, which is fine by me. The cap doesn't really affect the performance in any way. I also couldn't find the Cane Creek model. I'm currently leaning toward the FSA Orbit XLII linked by Dan, but will wait for advice from Somerset.
I am sure that would work fine if they are using that headset on Nomads and possibly other models now. But, that likely will mean some shop time and cost if that means changing the cups and the fork race.
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Problem solved. The reply from SJS was to buy the FSA linked above by Dan http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-orbit-xl-2-1-1-8-inch-aheadset-prod3101/?geoc=us as it is on offer and cheaper than just the bearings alone. However, before ordering I took everything apart at the weekend, cleaned, greased and re-assembled and all is now running fine :) Most likely some dirt had got in somewhere. While experimenting I did find that if I overtightened the cap and squeezed the bearings it produced the same notchy symptoms I experienced, so worth considering that if you ever have the same issues.
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... I took everything apart at the weekend, cleaned, greased and re-assembled and all is now running fine :) Most likely some dirt had got in somewhere. While experimenting I did find that if I overtightened the cap and squeezed the bearings it produced the same notchy symptoms I experienced, so worth considering that if you ever have the same issues.
Can the bearing cartridges on the XLII be disassembled to allow re-greasing the ball bearings?
Yeah, the symptoms of over-tight bearings can be very much like the feel of when there is some dirt in them. I worked in a bike shop when virtually all bearings were cup and cone, adjusting bearings was something we did continuously. You get used to the "tight bearing" feel pretty fast. Sometimes the distinction can be made by sound.
I picked up an old 1980s Bianchi mixtie bike in a neighbors trash. The bottom bracket felt really bad, it had one of those bottom brackets where there was a cage holding the ball bearings together in a unit, but the cage was all mangled which was the problem. Simply had to buy new 1/4 loose balls and reassemble, now it works great on my trainer for indoor exercise in winter.
Another problem with "notchy" feeling bearings is that dynohubs always feel that way because of the magnets. Thus, some people that think the bearings feel tight have tried to adjust the bearings but instead damaged the hubs. So, if your dynoub feels notchy, that is what they are supposed to feel like - leave it alone.
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Hi Mick, I didn't take the cartridges apart to get at the bearings themselves, they actually looked ok but there was a small amount of fine dust around them that could have been causing the issue. I know what you mean with dynohubs, they have a similar feel to the notchy headset when spun but are fine of course.
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If the headset in question is an Orbit XL II, bearings are available separately and just drop in. Replacement is easy: Just disassemble the unit leaving the cups installed, swap cartridge bearings, reassemble.
See: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-headset-bearing-sealed-for-orbit-xlii-prod20944/?geoc=us
I bought one spare set of bearings sometime ago, then another whole spare headset when I found it was actually less costly:
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-orbit-xl-2-1-1-8-inch-aheadset-prod3101/?geoc=us It would be as easy to rob the bearings out of this and not bother the installed cups.
It would seem there are two fairly different models of the Orbit XL2 headset, with notably different prices
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/fsa-orbit-xlii-headset-no-5-/rp-prod1164
On checking mine I would seem to have the version linked by Dan. Fitted over 5 years ago, never serviced and not adjusted much at all. Still working fine. Headsets do tend to be a bit like that - one of the least serviced items on a bike (along with pedals). Must check it over one day ::)
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It would seem there are two fairly different models of the Orbit XL2 headset, ...
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/fsa-orbit-xlii-headset-no-5-/rp-prod1164
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Very very perceptive, the photos of the two are slightly different, the lower cups look different.
The SJS link: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-orbit-xl-2-1-1-8-inch-aheadset-prod3101/?geoc=us
The SJS photo shows a lower cup that appears to be more rounded, whereas the Chain Reaction Cycles one appears to have a sharper edge to the bend in the lower cup.
My Sherpa (older than 2010) is in storage right now, I can look at it but it would be very inconvenient to try to put it next to my Nomad (2013) where I can see both together. But when I look at each of them separately they appear to be the same and appear to be the more rounded version that SJS has on their website. That said, the Sherpa one says Cane Creek on the upper cup but had an FSA stem cap.
The link that Dan had for the bearings said that the bearings fit both the FSA and the equivalent Cane Creek.
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/fsa-headset-bearing-sealed-for-orbit-xlii-prod20944/?geoc=us
So, I am starting to think that both my Nomad and Sherpa have identical headsets although the branding is different.
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Yes the FSA and the Cane Creek are identical, my Sherpa has the FSA branded version and my Audax mk3 has the Cane Creek version, I queried this with SJSC when I got the Audax and was told they are the same headset.
That one on Chain Reaction does state that it is a new version.
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Yes the FSA and the Cane Creek are identical, my Sherpa has the FSA branded version and my Audax mk3 has the Cane Creek version, I queried this with SJSC when I got the Audax and was told they are the same headset.
There was a licence/patent dispute over the gold compression washer for some time, whilst this was ongoing FSA put a marking of pat. Cane Creek, it was simply a nod to Cane Creek they were using their patent under license, eventually this was resolved and they went back to being branded FSA, they were always made by FSA (TH Industries) and still had FSA top caps.
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Dave, thanks for the clarification.
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Had a look at mine today, I got them the wrong way round, the Sherpa has the Cane Creek branding and the Audax has the FSA branding, both have FSA top caps.
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Mine are cleaner.
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A QUICK UPDATE
Above I stated that:
.... I have rebuilt a Cane Creek a few times, that is the C-2 model. Fortunately I saved the PDF exploded diagram for it on my hard drive years ago, that also is not on Cane Creek web site any more. That model has bearing retainers that I can disassemble and re-grease the individual ball bearings. ...
But when I took my Nomad Mk II apart to pack for a trip, I looked at the headset and the Orbit XL II does not appear to have bearings that can be disassembled down to the individual ball bearing level like my older Cane Creek one. So, if your Orbit bearings go, don't bother trying to regrease the bearings like I mentioned earlier, I do not think you will succeed.
The headset in the photo is not complete, the cups are still in the frame, the photo is the way I am packing my fork for transport so I can keep all the parts in the correct order.