Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: j1of1 on January 09, 2015, 01:59:18 AM
-
I love my Nomad, but for extreme conditions I wish it had a Gates drive on it. I understand some of the reluctance of putting a Gates drive (frame integrity, etc), but after I read stories such as the one posted here: http://blog.gatescarbondrive.com/?p=7770 I'm starting to wonder if the Thorn folks are "heads up and locked" regarding the Gates drive - refusing to consider the possibility of a Gates drive on a Thorn.
So what am I seeking? Could someone give me an explanation, supported with some kind of evidence that a Gates drive is going to impact something (e.g., frame integrity, etc) on a Thorn? I'm starting to believe - after reading posts such as the one above that I'm missing out on something that should be on my Nomad!
-
Well, it has to be a bit of a challenge, figuring out a way to cut one of the stays to get the belt through.
My guess is that it is a bit like the Chainglider for 36 tooth chainrings. There is design work and then the minimum number of frames with the new feature... I sure wouldn't want to be the fellow in charge of gambling, predicting, will there be enough demand for the thing to pay off? It's really hard when dealing with a low volume product!
If the belt drives keep growing in popularity and prove their value in hard use, I bet they'll show up on the Thorns!
-
Frame integrity is quite a big thing, especially on an altered frame rather than one designed from scratch to be split. There is also the limited life of the Gates belt, which only recently was said to be as low as 5000m (or was that 5000km?); the Dutch tourers you quote have already done much better than that. The question stands though: if a Gates belt were to give up the ghost in the back of beyond, could they change it themselves or are special tools necessary? (I don't know but it is a question worth answering.)
But it is your bike. You could ask Thorn if they will alter the frame and fit a Gates drive for you. If they won't, you can get someone else to do it. Perhaps the chap who brazed all the steel Thorn frames until a few years ago will do the job for you. Maybe Bob Jackson can help you; they're very easy to deal with. In either case, the job will be done competently. It's likely to be expensive, because you'll need a repaint.
If you do it, don't forget to report here. We'd be keen to know how it goes.
-
Interesting. What you might like to do is research Santos who provided Sarah Outen with her bike to whizz around the world on, Her's has a gates. Similarly, Woodrupp ( sp?) do a Chimera belt drive; think they are in Leeds UK.
My Nomad will not be seeing the hacksaw any time soon!
-
I really do not see what the problem with a chain is. I like the ability to switch chainrings and add or subtract a few links to change my gear range on my Rohloff. I readily admit that I have had some pretty filthy chains at the end of some bike tours, but if I was going to let that bother me I would use a dry lube or a wax lube instead of an oil with dust magnet characteristics. Thinking back, I have usually lubed my derailleur bikes more frequently than my Rohloff bike, thus the bikes with the dirtiest chains were ones that can't use a belt.
Regarding frame integrity, Raleigh DL-1 frames and their locally made copies have held up quite well over the decades in economically disadvantaged parts of the world where they served as overloaded utility bikes. In such locations a bicycle was often used as a substitute for a truck. Their bolt on seatstays never were a problem that I am aware of.
If there is a good accurate compendium of chain versus belt pros and cons that is not full of marketing bias, I would like to see it. The only real disadvantages I see of a chain is (1) an occasional few minutes needed for lubrication, (2) accumulated grime that results from that and (3) an occasional need to adjust for chain stretch. Quite frankly I am happy to have five bikes that I regularly ride that use the same 8 speed chains and the same quick links. And I would much rather carry a few extra chain links in my bag of spares than an entire new belt.
And no I am not interested in this turning into a discussion of the Hebe chainguard.
-
And no I am not interested in this turning into a discussion of the Hebe chainguard.
Sounds definite, girls and boys! (Any takers?) :D ;D :D ;D
-
I have a bike with a belt, originally due to having to store the bike in the house but another reason is that it's different. The Woodrup Chimera is a steel bike with a Rohloff & Gates Belt. To have Rohloff & Gates warranties they had to send a bike off to Germany to be checked for approval. My RST is a fine bike too. I have seen bikes locally with shaft drives too. To be honest it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.
Kevin Sayles who built the Woodrup saw no problems with splitting the rear frame to fit the belt - all proven technologies.
Pedalling a chain bike and a belt bike is just the same. Apparently changing the belt is very easy, just an allen key to undo the widget and put the new belt on. No worry about greasy hands !
I'm hoping it will see me out :D
-
Regardless of the companies standpoint, my own reservation is simply the tools required, see http://www.bibikes.nl/tools.php the 2nd tool down is the one to change the rear sprocket, we have had to send 3 to Germany already as we arn't prepared to invest in the expensive tool. Intrestingly on both ocassions the customer asked for the hub to be returned with the driver for a standard sprocket... The only bike i've ridden with one was a VNT I must say I noticed the difference the power take up didn't seem as imediate as with a chain.
-
After I made my comments above, I recalled one more bit of trivia.
Back in the days of V belts (before the newer serpentine belts), I lost a fan belt on my 1965 Ford truck on the way to work. Fortunately it was below zero F (or colder than about minus 18 degrees C) and my engine did not overheat until I got off the highway near work. At highway speed the fan turned from the air flow through the radiator and that kept the water pump turning enough so that adequate coolant flowed through the engine.
I needed a new fan belt to get home. I had some quarter inch sisal line (rope to you non-sailors) in my truck, I managed to put a long splice into it and drove home with that sisal line instead of a fan belt. The alternator did not spin well at idle but otherwise the truck worked fine until I could buy another V belt later that night.
I however doubt that a long splice on a bit of line would get you home on your bicycle.
-
...my own reservation is simply the tools required, see http://www.bibikes.nl/tools.php the 2nd tool down is the one to change the rear sprocket, we have had to send 3 to Germany already as we arn't prepared to invest in the expensive tool.
This is what I feared, a requirement for a special tool that almost no one is likely to have, that is too heavy and awkward to be carried on tour. That may not matter though to the OP if the rough places he wants to ride are within striking distance of home, and if his belt will last without removal for a high mileage. Thanks for the facts and the link, Dave.
-
Regardless of the companies standpoint, my own reservation is simply the tools required, see http://www.bibikes.nl/tools.php the 2nd tool down is the one to change the rear sprocket, we have had to send 3 to Germany already as we arn't prepared to invest in the expensive tool. Intrestingly on both ocassions the customer asked for the hub to be returned with the driver for a standard sprocket... The only bike i've ridden with one was a VNT I must say I noticed the difference the power take up didn't seem as imediate as with a chain.
This is interesting, but also a bit puzzling ...
I wonder why anybody would need to change the rear [belt drive] sprocket unless they want to change their gear ratios? I am assuming that because of the width of the teeth on the belt drive sprocket and the much lower friction of the belt, that such a sprocket would last many decades?
Jim ???
P.S. Andre, I also can't imagine why you would need to remove the sprocket if the belt failed.
P.P.S. Dave, that tool is priced at 35.50 Euro on that website!
http://www.bibikes.nl/winkel.php?view=productListPage&category=13
Are you telling us you send customers' hubs to Germany and charge them for freight because you "arn't prepared to invest in the expensive tool" i.e. 35.50 Euro ... frankly, that beggars belief.
-
P.S. Andre, I also can't imagine why you would need to remove the sprocket if the belt failed.
Depends how the continuous, tight belt is held on the sprocket. If by an edge retainer, that has to be removed at the sprocket or pedal end, possibly at both. If by matching V in belt and pulleys, one or both of the pulleys must be removed. Ask at your garage about replacing the timing belt on your car; the Gates belt for bikes is just a niche market application of the automobile cambelt.
-
This link is a fairly good overview of the Gates belt drive experience which gives a view on many of the questions people have about belt drives, and the development [to date] of the Gates system. Surprisingly, the recommendation here is a chain drive for dry / sandy roads because of noise issues with the belt drive.
http://cyclingabout.com/carbon-belt-drive-everything-you-ever-need-to-know/
It seems that if you had a puncture the belt must be put on before it is re-tensioned, for a Thorn bike I suppose this means undoing the EBB before fitting, and then re-tensioning the belt.
I am not a belt drive evangelist, but I am very interested in new developments in cycling, that is after all why I have owned a bike with a Rohloff for the last 5 years.
-
Oh, but I should have added, you could probably also run a Hebie Chainglider over a belt drive!
Sorry Mike ;)
-
Oh, but I should have added, you could probably also run a Hebie Chainglider over a belt drive!
Heh-heh!
Thanks for the link to a comprehensive FAQ. It looks like the Centertrack Gates Drive would do well on tarmac for a good long time.
-
Oh, but I should have added, you could probably also run a Hebie Chainglider over a belt drive!
That misses one of the points of having a belt - if you put Herbie on it then no one can see you have a wondrous new belt driven bicycle. ;)
Mine gets muddy and has had snow packed round it and gets wet when it rains but still only needs a quick wash from a watering can and it's OK again.
(Anyone remember when cars went for a service and lots of things were done to them that no one would think of doing now on a modern car because the engineers have designed them out ?)
-
At the price of a new belt, I am not very interested. Even if the belt lasts a long time, still not interested.
I expect that derailleur bikes will continue to be the predominant type of bike out there. Thus, I expect bike shops to stock plenty of chains and no belts unless that shop sells a IGH bike, then they probably would only stock one belt in the right size for that bike.
And a lot of expendable bike parts are sold in hardware stores and discount stores that serve the lower cost bike market, I don't see that as a market for belt drives either.
Will we see more belts on bikes? Yes. But almost all the IGH bikes I see in my community are commuters that want lower maintenance. These probably are the bikes where the belts will gain market share. And I would expect only the larger shops that are set up to work on belt drive bikes with a competent mechanic would stock them.
Even if more Rohloff touring bikes are sold in the future with belts, that is a very small market. I have only seen two Rohloff touring bikes, mine and one other that I saw last spring in a campground. In my part of the world, derailleur touring bikes far outnumber IGH touring bikes. And there are two kinds of bike tourists, those that have the skill to fix anything on their bike and do not mind spending a little quality time to do maintenance, and those that rely on others to do their maintenance. I see this second group that pays others to do their maintenance as the ones that are more likely buyers of a belt driven bike, but it is my observation that this second group is a very small minority.
Those are my thoughts. I am sure that some will disagree but we are all free to have our own opinions.
Everything I have seen on belts is based on longevity by a careful belt user. But I wonder what the experience of the more typical user will be like when they gain market share?
-
I agree Mike. I just can't see belts "sweeping the world". It's a tiny slice of the very small market that is IGH bikes anyway, so whilst it won't disappear, I can't see it growing much beyond where it is currently.
I'd be curious to know the proportions of belt-drives sold by makers who have belt variants of chain-drive bikes, such as Co-Motion, Van Nicholas, etc. I doubt they would ever share these figures, but I wonder if it gives Gates any encouragement?
-
I thought I would just note that when I bought my first Rohloff I'm not sure if Thorn were selling bikes with them on, but it seems to be an important part of their business now. It's easy to see why they would want them to be tried and tested before they have them on their bikes, and to some extent Thorns are old school bikes for old school folks.
I have been surprised lately by the number of bikes available from some bike shops which have both hub gears and belt drives. It's definitely not huge, and they are all aimed at commuters (to whom I think they are ideally suited), but the choice compared to a couple of years ago is huge
The most common maintenance task that I carry out on my bike is to oil the chain, if I didn't have to do this then cumulatively I could save a lot of time. The Mercury seems to have a short throw EBB and I can't help but wonder if this system might be better suited to belt drives with less tendency to stretch than a chain. The problem of breaking the frame surely isn't that great, as Thorn are happy to supply bikes with S&S couplings, although it's possible that a suitable coupling for the seat stay isn't readily available yet.
If I were looking for a new bike then belt drive compatibility would probably be a nice thing to have, but I'm not sure that it would be important enough to prevent me from buying another Thorn.
-
Sorry to labour the point but yesterday my other half & myself plus about 25 other cyclists were being shown round the newly set up trails in a local wood. After an hour of cycling I think I was one of the few who didn't have problems with clag in the gears and chain.
Today I spent a couple of hours cleaning and re-lubricating the other half's derailleur and chain whilst mine with the belt and hub gears just needed a quick wash down with the watering can.
(The only other person who didn't have a problem was on a skinny, smooth tyred, totally unsuitable for that terrain, road bike which didn't pick up the mud, grit and pine needle clag.)
-
I thought I would follow up my recent (and in hindsight, rather dismissive :D) remarks to say that I am trying to get a closer look at a belt drive bike - in this case, a Bike Friday Infinity Drive Silk. It's paired up with a Nuvinci hub (or you can buy the Silk with an 8 speed Alfine).
As you can imagine, they're not very common here in Oz. :(
BTW - Anyone heard whether Thorn's ready to release that Rohloff/Gates folder Andy's been working on? (Oops! Sorry, I should've kept the cat in the bag... :-[)
;) :D ;D