Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: richie thornger on October 20, 2014, 11:56:28 AM
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When my backside finally recovers I want to try out riding a much sportier position.
Prior tro touring on Thorns The last bike I cycled regularly was a BMX 20 years previous, so I've never really ridden head down.
Option 1: Buy a dedicated road bike.
Option 2: Put drops on my Nomad and strip everything possible to make it lighter. I realise that's like trying to turn a Ford Transit Van into a Formula 1 car but I love my Rohloff.
What are the main things I could do to the Nomad to lose weight?
Obviously Racks off and lighter wheels spring to mind. Is there much else I can do?
When I weighed my naked Nomad but including racks it was 20kg!!!
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the angles are all wrong for a fast bike wheelbase to long.
if your after speed get a good road bike aluminium or carbon good et of wheels and your away in a hack.
i might concider selling you my Raleigh 753 frame 28 years old still perfect and probably the best bike you'll ever ride.
things i do when i'm feckin broke.
jags.
leave the nomad as it is. ;)
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but what about the Rohloff Jags :)
I'm not after speed so much as just a lighter better positioned bike.
I thought some magical Thorn Thairy might have a secret :)
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Richie,
My own Nomad Mk2 is also a 20kg bike. I like it very much h setup with compact drop handlebars at saddle height.
Given you already own a Nomad, I think you'd gain more by taking less cargo...stripping down the lot you carry.
All the best,
Dan.
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I think you mean taking NO cargo Dan ;)
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Far better to buy a Thorn Raven Sport tour frame if we still have one in your size or change everything to a Thorn Mercury frame.. I supose it depends if your touring days are over or not?
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Hi Dave, OK, it's an idea.
My Nomad is a MK 1 and a half :) The MK 1 S&S with Rohloff.
So my choices in order of cost are:
Option 1: Buy a complete new Rohloff equipped drop bar Thorn bike.
Option 2: Buy a new / used complete lighter weight Thorn minus a rear wheel.
Option 3: Buy a new / used lighter weight Thorn frame and fork set plus some drop bars.
Option 2: Might be a winner.
Is their anything I need to be aware of regards slotting my old wheel into a different bike?
Mine has the Ex Box Rohloff connector.
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I think you mean taking NO cargo Dan
Well...I was thinking of Danneaux's Cargo Conundrum, a frequent topic of my on-bike thoughts while riding.
At any given time while touring, I *don't* use better than 90% of the stuff I've taken. It is there for *when* I need it (i.e. sleeping bag, pad, and tent for night) and *in case* I need it (jackets, fleece, first aid kit).
Right now, the livingroom floor looks like an outdoor store exploded in it. I've laid out a lot of my stuff and am reorganizing it in a modular fashion so I can quickly assemble a kit for the next tour of whatever length. For example, there's the stoves: Coleman Multi-fuel for my desert tours when the only possible fuel resupply is unleaded pump petrol. My beer can penny stove and ultralight pot kit for overnighters and hot lunches on long day rides, and a sub-USD$17 very compact iso-butane burner/pot setup with an all-season fuel mix for in-between uses. There's the Mini-Trangia setup for as well. Sleeping bags are divided into warmish and coldish, with one bag down bag good down to freezing, the other to -15°C comfortably. Big and compact first aid kits (needed the sewing kit for Danneaux repairs on the last tour, so a modest version will be incorporated into each), big and small liquid-fuel bottles for white gas/naptha/petrol/meths, etc.
The trouble is, if one is touring for an extended period in all seasons (or something that simulates it, like desert travel with wide variations between day/night temps or big changes in altitude or on different continents/latitudes), you almost certainly must carry for the extremes...and that's too much when you don't need it. Depends on proximity to population and resupply as well. Through-hikers handle such things with mail drops for send-home and resupply. That should work for cycling as well, but at US postal rates, it might sometimes be better to abandon or give away small things that could be repurchased almost as cheaply later.
A major advance for me was to go with the smartphone. It effectively replaced a lot of stuff -- the cameras (didn't use my Sony travel-zoom or the GoPro), radio (Internet radio when near wifi), netbook/laptop, books (used e-reader apps), and data backup (spare 64GB SD cards and 3TB portable hard drive. Its GPS was more often handy on roads than the dedicated Garmin I brought for what was mostly an on-road tour rather than cross-country through roadless terrain. No need for my 4G LTE portable hotspot or for tethering without wifi. Charging became a non-issue at standard USB supply rates.
I'm still working at trying to make the light/compact "warm weather" sleeping bag work in colder conditions by piling on the clothing, but it isn't the same as having a warm bag to begin with when the temps really plummet toward 0°F/-18°C. I've got my clothing pretty well dialed in, and have managed to recently find a source for traditional wool cycling tights without chamois. Joy! That'll help a lot toward extending my temperature range. Sometimes, adding things can save weight as well. For example, by adding lightweight underwear I can wash out under a water bottle and air-dry in 15 minutes, I can wear my cycling shorts for as much as two weeks (cue the collective "Ewww!" chorus) when drying the shorts chamois is impossible/impractical overnight. Alternating riding shorts and airing them wrongside out in the sunshine eliminated or prevented any odor. This means fewer clothes overall. Quarter-socks (running socks) take half the room/weight because I'm not packing the shaft of the sock. Last summer's tour was generally warm enough to forego dedicated rain gear in favor of a lightweight wind jacket so I got wet but didn't chill while riding; I changed to dry clothes for sleeping in the tent at night or rode them dry after the rain stopped. The alternative was to get as wet from sweat inside my rain gear in the wet and humidity of River Country. I still used the rain gear on cold 3°C mornings.
One thing I added promptly on returning home was an Ortlieb exterior folding mesh pannier pocket, so I could store my wet things outside the dry interior of my bags until I could wring the clothes out at camp to dry or put on wet the next day. There's no point switching to dry clothes for riding if they're only going to get wet again. I save the dry ones for sleeping in at night or for dry weather the next day while the wet ones dry atop the rear rack or on a line in camp or over a tub/in a shower at lodging. Both strategies reduce the number of needed clothes, also saving weight and bulk.
The nice thing about lightening overall weight by lightening load is I can usually do it cost-free and fairly easily by leaving stuff home. *Must* I take it vs *Might I need it* becomes the determining factor. Still, compared to my lighter bike there's a 5.5kg difference in bike weight to make up for in cargo before I break even. A person can go ultralight like my long-admired Iik ( http://ultralightcycling.blogspot.com/ ), or go the other way and take the lot, which in turn requires a sturdier bike to carry it all. In my case for desert touring, water is the deciding factor, followed by extra food stores. I'm away from commercial resources, towns, stores, people, and in a harsh dry environment without much in the way of available potable water. Gotta carry more in water and food weight than what the lighter bike could manage...and would overtax it and its much lighter, narrower-tired 700C wheels.
Richie, if you could keep your Nomad and go with something lighter and more portable and could have someone ship you the bike and kit you need for your next tour leg and store the ones you don't...that would be the ideal, I think, in terms of use. Trouble is, it incurs extra expense and a host of other problems, including finding what you need was left in "the other place, with the other bike". It could range from merely annoying to neat agony if that happened.
Maybe the most effective way to save weight is to go with a partner. Tools and lodging (tent, anyway) can be shared as well as cooking gear, stove, fuel and even food, cutting the weight for each by a substantial amount. I was looking at the lot on the livingroom floor and thinking, "Hmm. All someone else would need to bring is their own clothes and toiletries and sleeping bag and pad; the rest of the lot is already here". That gives either the option to split equally or for another, less well-equipped or less-experienced/less fit person to enjoy touring at minimal effort and expense, the weight difference serving as a fitness equalizer. It's a great solution if you find someone compatible and don't kill each other.
Lots to think about here, Richie.
All the best,
Dan.
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Sorry dan, perhaps i've not explained properly. This bike wil NOT be for touring. Just for road riding.
The thing is I want to stay Rohloff.
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Sorry dan, perhaps i've not explained properly. This bike wil NOT be for touring. Just for road riding.
The thing is I want to stay Rohloff.
Ah! That changes everything! :D
Is their anything I need to be aware of regards slotting my old wheel into a different bike?
My two cent'sworth:
• Shift-box compatibility
• Wheel diameter compatibility (i.e. in the case of Nomad vs. Mercury)
• Tire width (wrt to mudguard clearance and stay/fork clearance)
Best,
Dan.
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Tyres will be changed.
So a Mercury is a 700cc so that's a no.
My old Raven had a different box to my Nomad. does that mean all ravens are out?
Am I running out of options :)
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just buy a road bike richie,
a friend of mine has araven sports tour rohloff cracking bike for sure,
but if he's riding in the group or with a few lads he takes his carbon road bike.
few years back when i had the sherpa i took it out a few times with the group all these guys are roadies i could stay with them for the first part of the spin but once the pace went up yours truly came home on his own knackered. ::)
get a road bike .
anto.
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Easy enough to put your ex box rohloff wheel into a frame not designed for it (e.g. Raven), just means you have to run the cables a bit differently.
I was just wondering the other day about how much work would be involved swapping the Rohloff between different bikes with different wheel sizes. Could you get a spare hub shell and build up a 700c wheel for example, and then just swap the gear internal unit as and when required, would it just be a case of keeping a stock of the necessary seals and oil?
Or would it be easier to dismantle and rebuild the wheel each time?
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Jags, your's is of course the most sensible idea. I just don't want to back to fiddly gears :)
I remember how I felt when i first had my raven Tour and how much I enjoyed hills vs the mountain bike that I had before it.
I AM NOT A CYCLIST :)
The Rohloff was more like having a BMX then a racer that's why I love it so much.
I really do think I would not have gone near bicycle touring if it wasn't for Rohloff gears. For me it made geared cycling enjoyable.
Laugh at me all you want, I don't mind. I can't even spell derailler let alone align one.
The seals and oil sounds like a recipe for disaster in my world :) I'll forget to do something and ruin the whole hub.
Your idea may be an option for someone coming to this thread a later date Ru but for me changing wheels is about as complicated as I would want to get :)
I could probably deal with the connector box if its just a case of adding in some of the connectors I had on my Raven.
So what is the lightest Thorn 26" Rohloff frame set and most importantly how light is it. I'm guessing its A Raven Tour Sport???
Whenever I come across an article about weight weenie road bikes the first thing a lot of people come out with is...lose the weight off your body it's a lot cheaper.
I've now been a vegetarian for 2 months and the weight is flying off me. I've lost 7kg in the 5 weeks I've been home, there will be nothing left of me soon so I don't think I've got much scope in that department :)
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Maybe this, Richie, in a 562S?: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/thorn-raven-sport-tour-frame-and-fork-set-bright-red-gloss-with-black-decals-prod11303/?geoc=us
Best,
Dan.
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Sean Conway, round the world in 116 days on a Rohloff - Mercury frame, aero bars, not a whole load of luggage - might be a nice midway approach between a Nomad and a carbon and helium confection...
http://www.seanconway.com/2012---cycling-the-world.html
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Cheers Hubs. I love my Nomad for what its meant for so I don't want to get rid quite yet. So I would keep the Rohloff wheel. Therefore I don't think it will fit the mercury frame???
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Sean Conway, round the world in 116 days on a Rohloff - Mercury frame, aero bars, not a whole load of luggage - might be a nice midway approach between a Nomad and a carbon and helium confection...
http://www.seanconway.com/2012---cycling-the-world.html
hard as bloody nail that guy.
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Richie...
Here's a thought (or for the price, two!):
I've found I tend to not ride bikes where there's a hassle to get them ready. For some reason, swapping accessories from one to another is enough to put me off and choose another, so each one is fully equipped with its own lights, computer, underseat bag, bottles, pump, etc.
I fear the same could be true if you found yourself swapping rear wheels very frequently (maybe you won't).
Wondering...where the "new" bike would be lighter, could you get by with something less than a Rohloff and thus less costly, but with many of the advantages...something like a Nexus or Alfine IGH?
Or...depending on terrain, perhaps a single-speed or fully Fixed-gear setup on the second bike? That would bring back the simple joy of your past BMX bike, but sized for a grownup and with better positioning to make speed and the same near maintenance-free advantages. That seems to be a large part of the appeal of SS and Fixed bikes for the college and uni crowd where they've simply exploded in numbers. They're lightweight, too.
The point being, if you have the second bike equipped with some sort of (less expensive) rear wheel, you could still quickly grab and use it without having to do the full swap thing on the Rohloff wheel. If you ride only one bike or the other for an extended period, it wouldn't be a problem to swap, but this would give options.
Best,
Dan.
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I'd second Dave Whittle's suggestion of a clearance Thorn Raven Sport tour frame if SJS still have one. I'd also suggest a Shimano Alfine or Nexus Premium 8-speed hub instead of swapping over the Rohloff wheel, so long as you can manage with the more limited gear range in the area where you live. An Alfine 11 would give more gear range than an 8-speed, but more expensive and not sure it is as reliable as the 8.
When SJS had some in my size a few weeks ago I was sorely tempted to get a Raven Sport Tour frame to build as a "poor man's Mercury" with a Shimano 8-speed hub, drop bars, lightweight rims and tyres and no racks (hypothetical replacement for my old derailleur gear lightweight). The 8-speed hub would have enough range for the kind of rides I now do on that bike, and, from comparison rides I did when I converted an old MTB from derailleur to Nexus 8 I don't think the slight extra weight of hub gears and their reputed lower efficiency would make much difference. Advantage is less maintenance and less complicated gear changing.
However, I already bought a slightly heavier Raven Tour frame for utility use earlier this year so that's enough new bikes for the time being!
Thread on my Nexus Premium 8-speed Raven Tour here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=8981.0
Rual recently did an Alfine 8 conversion on an Audax frame, thread for that here:
http://www.thorncycles.co.uk/forums/index.php?topic=9693.0
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Ah! That changes everything! :DMy two cent'sworth:
Still, I've enjoyed reading your "Tools and equipment for masochists" article.
Andre Jute
Us credit card tourers suffer too, you know
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I've gone from an RT to an RST frame for similar reasons. I wasn't using the full carrying capacity of the RT frame so I bought one of Thorn's sell-off RST-alfines and then swapped the rohloff etc onto the RST. I've sold off most of the surplus bits and ended up with a rohloff RST. I was tempted to go the mercury route but that would have required new wheels etc and wouldn't have been very cost effective (buying a mercury and selling the complete RT would have been a better option). The RST is a nicer bike to ride unloaded than the RT and copes with two panniers and a bar bag for touring. It's maybe a 1 mph quicker on the long term average. Was it worth it? I think so, as I've effectively got a new rohloff bike for a fraction of the cost. The difference between RT and RST are relatively subtle, although you may experience a bigger difference still with the nomad.
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Borrow or rent a bike with drop bars and ride it for several hours to see if the change in position meets your needs. If it does, then decide if the "fiddly" gears are acceptable or if they are as bad as you recall. (I really have no problems with my indexed 8 speed bar end shifters on my Sherpa.) Once you have done that, you will have a better idea on what you really want.
Option B - convert your Nomad to drop bars. You would need new bars, new brake levers, probably would need shorter stem, then you would have to choose from over a dozen options on how to mount the shifter. Hopefully, your top tube would not be too long for such a setup, but Thorn sizes the frames for drop bars to have shorter top tubes than for flat bars. Switching the bars won't make it lighter, but if your issue is your riding position, maybe the weight won't be that much of an issue any more.
Mine in the photo is a size 590M and I am using drop bars. I have not used it on a tour yet, I wanted to see how my racks and panniers worked on it, thus the panniers in the photo.
If you do the bar conversion, make sure you get the right brake levers for your brakes. If they are V brakes, you would either need the long cable pull type levers or travel agents. I have V brake on the front of my Nomad with travel agent, cantilever on the rear.
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Cheers Hubs. I love my Nomad for what its meant for so I don't want to get rid quite yet. So I would keep the Rohloff wheel. Therefore I don't think it will fit the mercury frame???
Good point. No easy way around that without the rolloff being disc specific, and even then I guess it would look a little odd! RST it is then..!
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Yes lots of probably better options beyond swapping the Rohloff wheel over.
I had a look on ebay for used Thorns and came across various other lighter weight Rohloff bikes, so perhaps that is an option??
It's always good fun spending time looking into new toys :)
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Thinking more on the wheel swap, one of the enjoyable parts of more sporting bikes is often the lighter / lower rolling resistance wheel set, with narrower tyre profiles and narrower rims.
If you're looking at moving the wheel from Nomad to 'Rolloff Sport' mode, presumably you'll be keeping the (presumably) heavy duty Nomad style rim and tyre.
Which seems to negate some of the ethos you're going for here.
Just a thought.
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Yes unfortunately My Rigida Andra rims are indeed more suited to a tank.
The whole new bike option is seeming the solution, I just had to work through it with some others to get me convinced :)
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In that case the Mercury seems the closest option within the Thorn range. I would love one myself...
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Unfortunately I can't stretch to that money :(
I think If I go down the 2nd Rohloff bike route I will have to look at cheaper aluminium bikes from Germany.
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Unfortunately I can't stretch to that money :(
Neither can I!
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Just to add a bit of my experience to this thread; I had a similar set of circumstances. I have the Nomad, a bike which I very much like and which is exceptional in it's proper role, and which I don't want to get rid of because the moment I do, that elusive trip through Nepal will all of a sudden come up. So, I'm keeping the Nomad. As my health gets better I would like to ride a bit faster and perhaps try Audaxing. I considered a Thorn Audax for a while, but I really, really, really don't want to give up the luxury of the Rohloff and 28cm tyres seemed a bit limiting. So I solved my problems with a blood red Raven Sports Tour. They are on closeout now, a shame I think, and the price was fantastic compared to any other Rohloff frame at any "lesser" company. So far, after three weeks? Very happy!
The RST rides completely differently to the Nomad, much more than I would have imagined. It is much more of what I'm looking for at this point and the Nomad is going to be reconfigured which 700cc wheels (yes they fit fine with 32 tyres!) and put on a indoor Fluid trainer. Later I will likely convert it back to outdoor use, as I find money (if), but that will be a while and I am going back and forth about whether I should spend my daughters college fund (it's a humble one :) ) and buy a second Rohloff with lighter rims, or if a Sturmey-Archer 8 speed would do. I've even thinking of putting the Rohloff back into the Nomad in time and running the the RST as a fixie. Ahh, so many choices now! :)
Curently I am running the RST with the gear shifter disconnected as a single speed. That buys me time to experiment with different bars and stem combinations while I fine tune the bike to my old body. Not being in shape I don't want to comit to any setup before I get back some fitness. Let me tell you all, I really appreciate how long the Thorn fork steerers are. I have the steerer uncut and a short 70mm stem on it and it is just about right for me at this level of fitness/comfort. I believe that other brands, believe in looks over comfort and maybe save a few pennies on short steerers, and would keep me out of cycling as a result. The RST is comfortable! To heck with racer boy style.
The RST also runs a internal gear box, whereas the Nomad has an external setup. External is far better and I'm trying to decide if to convert the mech to fit it as intended or change the angle of the external mech so that it points up and run the cables as they are meant to be. I could also run the cables underneath with ties, but I don't really like that idea ... not at all elegant. If I run it as external, facing upwards it looks like I will not be able to mount a rear rack, but that again is why I have the Nomad around, so using only a Carradice Audax bag seems to be in the spirit of this lighter faster RST. Any ideas on the wisdom of keeping an external mech rather than converting the hub to internal?
For me, so far, it looks that going to the RST was an idea I should have come to earlier. It has rejuvenated my appetite for cycling and the slow tinkering and optimizing adds to the fun. Oh ... and Red for sure makes the bike faster! ;)
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The RST also runs a internal gear box, whereas the Nomad has an external setup. External is far better and I'm trying to decide if to convert the mech to fit it as intended or change the angle of the external mech so that it points up and run the cables as they are meant to be. I could also run the cables underneath with ties, but I don't really like that idea ... not at all elegant.
Hi Pavel!
I have been fortunate to try both the external and internal shifting schemes and cable routings on Rohloff-equipped Thorns and found them to be essentially equal in function and convenience. My Nomad Mk2 uses the external shiftbox and downtube cable routing; the Raven Sports Tour kindly loaned me by AndyBG for my double crossing of Europe last summer used the internal shifter and routing along the underside of the top tube with a cable stop on the left-rear brake boss.
With the external box, the rear wheel is detached by undoing a thumbscrew. With the internal hub, a couple quick-release bayonet connector fittings are undone. I found the difference in time and convenience between the two negligible. Some have found the internal shifter a bit smoother and to require less effort because it lacks the gearing of the EX transfer box, but with my fully lubed EX box, I would judge them essentially the same at the shifter.
The only real difference that might matter to me is the cabling used. The External shift-box uses universally available standard 1.1mm derailleur cabling, while the internal shifter requires 0.8mm cabling for the hub portion (the rest can be standard derailleur cabling). Cable replacements are a bit faster with the external shifter compared to the doing it from scratch with the internal shifter. The balance shifts in favor of the internal box if you have a pre-wound Rohloff Hub Cable Easy Set - 8573: http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/rohloff-hub-cable-easy-set-8573-prod16460/?geoc=us This lets you defer manual recabling until a more convenient time and makes roadside replacement a snap.
The speed and availability of replacement cables seems to be the reason why Rohloff recommend the External box for global touring.
There is a second reason to choose an External shift box: It is the only type that will work with a disc brake. However, if your frame has no mounting bosses for a caliper, this advantage is academic unless you will be swapping the rear wheel between bikes with both kinds of brakes. If I run it as external, facing upwards it looks like I will not be able to mount a rear rack, but that again is why I have the Nomad around, so using only a Carradice Audax bag seems to be in the spirit of this lighter faster RST.
A rotated mount can achieve the orientation you seek, I believe, but a bigger issue might be water intrusion caused by drips following the housing into the EX 'box. I think the problem could be minimized by filling the box with waterproof grease as I have, but it is still a possibility. I know Andy Blance has stressed the Thorn fitment has the external box aimed slightly downward to prevent water entry. Any ideas on the wisdom of keeping an external mech rather than converting the hub to internal?
Pavel, I would be inclined to keep the hub as it came, internal or external. The frames are made to facilitate cable routing to each type and given they function essentially the same, there seems no compelling reason to change. I think I'd save the money spent on conversion and use it for something else.
Hope this helps.
All the best,
Dan.