" Many wheel builders don’t listen to Rohloff’s wheel building directives and their failure to comply can lead to hub flange failure.It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS! My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange. I have no idea why they've done that, it's not a one-off, some of the bikes in the current catalogue are the same, but not all of them. I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted. I've never seen any other wheel, Rohloff or otherwise, built up like that.
I have just spoken to "Marko" at Rohloff HQ who is responsible for the manual/handbook incl the download.
After considerable discussion he agreed the information on the pages I attached at the beginning of this thread ( downloaded yesterday from their site )contained numerous mistakes in the image labelling and instructions regarding leading and trailing spokes, and how easy it would be to make a mistake as a result. I pressed him on whether if mistakes in lacing are made as a result of this fact and the flange integrity was undermined ( as mentioned in Mr Blance's article) whether Rohloff would warranty this and he said Yes. . He promised that in 10 mins a correctly labelled updated version of the manual would finally be available for download but I haven't seen it yet and will check later.
So ..if it is corrected today it will have taken them 15 plus years to do it . I also do hope that if it is finally more comprehensible it will help future owners to avoid a migraine .
Now all that's left is to sort out the issue re Mr Blance stating that the "Pulling" spokes should have the heads on the outside of the flange.
" Many wheel builders don’t listen to Rohloff’s wheel building directives and their failure to comply can lead to hub flange failure.It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS! My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange. I have no idea why they've done that, it's not a one-off, some of the bikes in the current catalogue are the same, but not all of them. I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted. I've never seen any other wheel, Rohloff or otherwise, built up like that.
Do I care? Not a jot, SJS have demonstrated again and again that they stand behind what they do. I'm entirely with Andre, I'd let them build the wheel and take the risk.
I do have another Rohloff, which I've built myself into a 24" folder wheel. I bought this secondhand and this is it's third wheel size when Rohloff's advise is to not change size and pattern. I'm aware of the risk and took it into account when negotiating the price. I've built this 1X and followed the previous spoke orientation, this aligned the spokes as closely as possible with the existing wear marks. Time wil tell...
Although the Rohloff warranty has been reduced, which I do find disappointing on a premium product, a broken flange isn't the end of the world if they'll still supply a replacement at a reasonable cost.
PH, any chance that you could post a photo of your wheel?Here you go, though it's not always this clean, click for bigger
Thanks, PH.Odd yes, particularly considering the talk from Thorn about not following Rohloff's instructions ;D
Very strange. Looks like the erroneous picture 5 on page 132 of the Rohloff manual, It also has all the spoke heads on the outside though that has the spokes crossing twice. It also looks like it was drawn rather than photographed. It also has the arrow pointing to the front, facing the wrong way. lol.
Looks like I laced mine up the same way that the failed flange that Ph has posted the photo of. But since that matches the lacing pattern that Rohloff showed in their photos in my manual that was current when I bought my hub in 2013, I am not going to worry about it, as I built my wheel the same way that Rohloff used for their photos..I bought that bike in 2004 and I think the flange broke in 2009, the first six years were the hardest on the hub, 140 miles a week rough commuting, which is what I bought it for.
I've had punctures it's taken me longer to fix!
It made me chuckle the first time I read that - the only wheelbuilders I know who deviate from the Rohloff instructions are SJS! My 700c wheel on a Mercury is currently built, by SJS after a flange failure, 1X with all the spoke heads on the outside of the flange. I have no idea why they've done that
On the failed flange that PH had, it is possible that such a failure could have happened and gone unnoticed for a very long time if that hub had the new reinforcing rings. On a rim brake bike you might develop a spot of brake rub, but a dirty hub, the dirt could easily hide such a failure.
The spokes on that wheel look like they were straight gauge. I was unable to source the lengths I needed in a butted spoke, thus I also used straight gauge spokes on my wheel.
On the failed flange that PH had, it is possible that such a failure could have happened and gone unnoticed for a very long time if that hub had the new reinforcing rings. On a rim brake bike you might develop a spot of brake rub, but a dirty hub, the dirt could easily hide such a failure.
The spokes on that wheel look like they were straight gauge. I was unable to source the lengths I needed in a butted spoke, thus I also used straight gauge spokes on my wheel.
I've wondered about that myself, if the reinforcing rings might not simply make a crack invisible for a time. What are they made of, is it a plastic or an aluminum band?
Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual. This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea.
I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.
Looking at the current brochures, it seems to be the way they're now doing it, the Mercury in 650B & 700C both have their Rohloffs built this way. i haven't looked at the others.
I think that one might have changed over the years, I'm pretty sure back in 2004 it applied to all wheel sizes.Andre's photo reminds me of another way in which SJS have always deviated from the Rohloff script, my Raven wheelbuild had the spokes cross over the nuts on the none drive side, the opposite to what was (Maybe still is) recommended in the manual. This wasn't some random decision, I remember reading the rationale for it and although I've forgotten what that was, I remember it sounded like a good idea.
Ah, Thorn get a pass on that as Rohloffs rule is not to cross above the end cap screws on wheels with a diameter of 24" and smaller, over 24" it is permissible. :)
Thanks, I remember that thread, it's a shame Dave's diagram has disappeared, it showed how the spokes on a 1X Rohloff build entered the rim at a similar angle to a 3X with a std derailleur hub.I think it also means the reinforcing rings that Rohloff now recommend can't be fitted.
PH,
There is a version of the rings that can only be fitted by Rohloff service agents like SJSC that is fitted using heat to increase their size so that when they cool they are a tight fit. New hubs now come with these already fitted at the factory as standard , so I'd think that you could have those fitted if you wished. Should be a quick job seeing as there would be no spokes to remove to fit them.
The rings and your hub lacing were mentioned in this thread: http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11802.msg99860#msg99860
... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.
...
It seems astonishing that after all these years, bikes and wheels being built and sold ,that , if you purchase a hub and wish to build it yourself or have a local wheel builder do the job , with the current state of affairs, you are unable be 100% certain it has been done correctly .
...
With Robin's input, I'm inclined now to have SJS Cycles build my next Rohloff wheel, but I wonder if they have available the Velocity Dyads, which are my first choice for a light, but still strong wheel?
...
I used Polyax nipples.
In regards to the dyads, they make them in 26", 650B, and 700cc. I was thinking of either the 650B or if my daydream of a Rohloff Audax or my fantasy of a Mercury happen to materialize, I'm thinking (wishfully?) that the larger diameter will obviate the problem of the steep angles requiring the special Rohloff drilling.
In fairness we do ask a lot of a Rohloff hub compared to a derailleur one, though considering the investment, that's hardly surprising. Flange failures on standard hubs are hardly unknown, google images brings plenty of results. I'm not sure there is a design improvement without a complete reinvention. Neither am I sure how common it is, I know of seven other Rohloff bikes and I'm the only one to have a flange break, not a big enough sample to conclude anything, but enough to dispel any idea that it's happening all the time.... The reinforcing rings are meant to address this problem on existing hubs, but I don't see why Rohloff haven't beefed up the flanges on new manufactured hubs, that seems to me to be a better solution.
Could be lots of reasons, perhaps the aluminum they get to cut the shell from is only available in a certain size? Or perhaps the equipment used to cut the shell can't do it? Could be many reasons, I am not going to speculate but I agree that would have been a better solution.
WRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote].
Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!
OK Robin ..thanks for those efforts.
It hasn't cleared anything up for the person who buys just a hub from yourselves and wants to build it up " correctly " but I understand your caution.
.The photos show that you seem to have it OK'd to build in different ways to the handbook instructions ,for example ...In the current German manual (which I'm presuming is relatively error free) it says the leading spoke crosses above the trailing spoke. Your builder has done it the other way round ...as well as the obvious flange showing all spoke heads facing outwards on another lacing.
I guess that doesn't matter because SJSC take responsibility for these deviations from the official document.
Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) . We'll have to wait for his return to clarify .....I still suspect it's a mistake .
Finally it does seem wrong that , as you say ,QuoteWRT getting a NEW wheel built elsewhere or doing it yourself, you'll need to rely on your judgement./quote].
Surely any customer should have access to clear definitive instructions somewhere!
I would say that looking at the photos, all four of them, leaves no doubt as to leading spokes. They go inside of the flange, in a cross 2 pattern and one should use only Rohloff spokes.
From my experience with a 20" Rohloff Moulton, I should have thought back and made the assumption that for very small wheels things are more critical, and may require greater precision and care. That wheel had the spokes bent out of necessity by the builder, at a pretty extreme angle. I knew nothing about it them, as that was my first Rohloff bicycle, but would not use such a setup again. I had no problems with it, but only rode that bike on roads with a light load.
I wonder if I bought a bike from Trek, or Surly, if the owner would drop by into a forum thread, and clear things up or offer advice.
Never mind MasterCard, it's Robin, Andy and Danneaux; priceless.
Andy Blance didn't comment whether he stood by his statement regarding "pulling spoke " head orientation ( p35 living with a Rohloff hub ) .
...I'm in that crowd that better make use of SJS's services.
Four photos of wheels from Thorn cycles
in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out.
in pictures 1 through 4 the leading spokes are head out.
Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in.
Sorry Pavel ..you have made a mistake
( Macspud made a small error involving one word "wrong" ) but the 2nd photo clearly shows the leading spokes to have heads on the inside of the flange.
Just to clarify : the leading spoke is the spoke which exits the hub in the direction of wheel travel .
I also noticed you seem to imply earlier that the leading spokes pull the most ..this is not my understanding . As always ..could be wrong .
Perhaps all the confusion isn't aided by people using different/incorrect terminology.
The reason I'm not giving advice as to what to do and why you should do it is simply a) I don't remember everything we decided and why over the decades b) as others have said before, learning to build a wheel using components that cost over £1000 is just not a great idea.
...
He does not use the terms leading and trailing but rather pulling and pushing. It's kind of long enough to be a pain to type out, so I will extract just what I think is relevant.
" the pulling spokes stretch and become longer, and the pushing spokes compress and become shorter. The rim bulges inward at the pulling spoke and outward at the pushing spokes while the ...
Sorry Pavel ..you have made a mistake
( Macspud made a small error involving one word "wrong" ) but the 2nd photo clearly shows the leading spokes to have heads on the inside of the flange.
Just to clarify : the leading spoke is the spoke which exits the hub in the direction of wheel travel .
I also noticed you seem to imply earlier that the leading spokes pull the most ..this is not my understanding . As always ..could be wrong .
Perhaps all the confusion isn't aided by people using different/incorrect terminology.
Remind me to never buy any wheels that you've built up. ;)
MacSpud ..just to clarify ...the reason I said you made a mistake is that by accident, when Pavel stated ( incorrectly ) that all 4 images showed the leading spokes with the heads out , you then said :
"Wrong. The first photo is of the non-drive side and has trailing spokes heads in"
the problem was that that statement isn't actually contradicting his statement !
He got it wrong on image 2 .
So he was wrong but not for the reason you stated !
Cheers
Bill
Some folks can rotate objects in space in their mind. Some can't.
Regarding the 'issues' does this mean that the Rohloff hub/wheel that I have in my 10 year old mint Raven Sport Tour requires a rebuild?
Not in my opinion. The wheel was presumably built by Thorn/SJS, so it should be sound.Agreed, Martin.
When the rim needs replacing it might be worth fitting flange support rings as part of the rebuild.
What Martin says, plus -Regarding the 'issues' does this mean that the Rohloff hub/wheel that I have in my 10 year old mint Raven Sport Tour requires a rebuild?
Not in my opinion. The wheel was presumably built by Thorn/SJS, so it should be sound.
When the rim needs replacing it might be worth fitting flange support rings as part of the rebuild.