Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Non-Thorn Related => Topic started by: Hoodatder on April 01, 2014, 08:40:10 pm
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Hi,
Can anyone recommend which insulated water bottles to use.
They will be used for keeping drinks cool and not hot - if that alters the choice.
I am thinking of buying the Camelbak but have also seen the Zefal - only online and not in the flesh.
Is there any real difference between them that someone can vouch for?
Thanks
Ian
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Ian,
I just did a search for "insulated water bottles" on crazyguyonabike.com, and it yielded, er 49 pages of review, questions, & comments, on both plastic & steel variants, and a range of sizes.
Good luck!
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What, only 49 pages?
Will respond in about 3 months from now.
Thanks John.
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The so-called insulated water bottles I have have never worked well, except some made by Mitsubishi which had an external fibre-stuffed insulating bag. But the Mitsubishi, of which I had three, were prone to grow stuff on the inside within a year, so they had to be chucked.
So now I use standard small plastic or stainless Thermos flasks. They work for a couple of hours, not even a half-day ride. BEWARE: your standard small Thermos flask is of a slightly lesser diameter than a cyclists's standard water bottle. It doesn't matter to me, because my ironic comment in carbon is an open-sided water bottle holder, the size of which adjusts easily to Thermos size by slipping a rubber band around it, but if your bottle holder is closed and just that fraction too large, your Thermos might bump out of it with expensive results.
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I have used the old "trick" of putting a ordinary water bottle into a sock. Get the sock wet it works for a while and can be wetted whenever a suitable water supply is available.
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Camelbak do a version of their podium bottle called the big chill. I have not idea how well this bottle works, I have the standard podium and like them a lot though.
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After reading various reviews (including crazyguyonabike) I have decided to buy the Kleen Kanteen. All along, I really wanted a stainless steel insulated bottle and this looks like the one for me. A separate Café Cap can be bought which enables drinking on the move - I believe. For some of you, weight might be an issue but I ignore this point on account of me being slightly - if not, quite a bit - overweight. The most important factor for me is to have cold water on the move. Too many times have I had warm, nay, very warm water and spat it out because I found it difficult to swallow.
Camelbak make a s/s bottle called the Eddy, which I understand will only insulate cold drinks and not even carbonated drinks at that! I know I mentioned in my opening post that keeping liquids warm was not a priority, but if my purchase is going to be at the higher end of the scale, then I would also prefer to have the option of heat retaining properties.
Even if drinking from the Kleen Kanteen is prohibited whilst on the go, then stopping for a quick glug isn't the end of the world. After all, I'm cycling for pleasure and am not on some time trial.
As regards Andre's caveats of sizing and elastic band accessories, I'm hoping that my Thorn Profile Design Kages will accommodate any slack or bulge ;)
Whilst cycling across Spain a few years ago, I met up with an Italian and cycled with him for a week or so. He had an insulated metal water bottle and his water was always chilled while mine was damned warm. I'm a slow learner!
So if any of you know any just reasons why I shouldn't buy the Kleen Kanteens, let him speak now or forever hold his peace :)
Ian
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Recently on the net I bought a water bottle described as stainless steel but when it arrived knew the moment I handled the parcel from the weight that it was ali. Later I found the same thing from a pound shop for two quid. It's labeled Sahoo, and looks smart but dents easily if dropped on the road, as ali does.
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Thanks for the caution Andre. This Kleen Kanteen is "US made" - it is actually manufactured in China from 18 / 20 stainless steel. It would appear that metal water bottles are more prevalent over there than here, with ALL the manufacturers sourcing their labour in China and Korea with the exception of one. One review claimed that Korea made the finest s/s in the world - do you think that's true? Dan's sure to know.
The reviews mentioned dents and knocks etc, even on the s/s bottles but I think that will give them a more aesthetic appeal.
Kind of rugged, well travelled type of dude 8)
If I don't receive any further advice / recommendations, I will buy the KK and let you know how they perform - both hot and cold.
Cheers
Ian
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buy the Kleen Kanteens?
Ian, I use Kleen Kanteen bottles on my bike. KK also make their own bottle holders (flat plastic, good quality), of which I have a couple, and they've worked fine for 2 - 3 years now. Ditto for the bottles, which are standard stainless, not insulated.
KK make a larger cage for their one-litre stainless bottle, and I'm thinking to get one of those for the outer cage mounting on the downtube of my Raven. The bottle-holders sold here in Canada are quite inexpensive, $5 - 6. I use the third (front) mounting mainly as a reserve, so I'll likely put a Sigg 1-ltr stainless bottle in the KK cage.
Maybe do a search through those 49 pages, adding "Kleen Kanteen", & see what they say about the insulated variant?
Cheers,
J.
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I use a Thermos for cold drinks attached and it has been great so far. I also use the SJS bottle cages because they are expandable.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/like/151263653510?hlpht=true&ops=true&viphx=1&lpid=95&device=c&adtype=pla&crdt=0&ff3=1&ff11=ICEP3.0.0&ff12=67&ff13=80&ff14=95
I bought in the UK on the internet but cannot remember who from. I can dig it out if you are interested.
Steve
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Hi John + Swinson,
I am literally about to press the button to buy 2 x KK insulated bottles.
After reading numerous reviews - crazyguy, youtube etc, my money is going to KK. They are in the food business and hygiene and the cleaning of apparatus is a major consideration of theirs. As regards durability, then I would say s/s is about as strong as you could hope for. The top is leak proof and even though the Café Cap ain't 100% leak / drip proof, it will be good enough to sit in the cage on the bike. Hell, one of my existing caps has a split in it and leaks when going over the occasional bump, but not to the detriment of being unusable.
Swinson - thanks for the word expandable. I was searching the grey matter for that word to explain my cage to Andre.
John - if the expandable cage does not work as intended, I will look at the KK cages - thanks for the nod.
I would not have thought that a question on water bottles would have generated so much interest and varied opinions.
It makes you realise how in a heated and political debate with possibly the slightest misunderstanding, just how easily wars are started.
Thanks
Ian
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I actually usually carry a lifeventure 300ml stainless steel thermos flask. Just the right size to put a large cup of tea in. Usually when you get a tea at tea rooms the pot they give you is usually massive and I end up wasting a cup. With this flask I get to take that cup with me for later.
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I would not have thought that a question on water bottles would have generated so much interest and varied opinions.
Thanks, Ian, glad all that has been helpful. Y'know, we pay attention to life's important wee details...look after the ounces, & the pounds'll take care of themselves. Or, we're mildly/wildly obsessive about things most people know or care nothing about. Then again, if you're going to be riding for any length of time at all, why not attend to the small details, so that you enjoy your ride & don't get distracted by niggly irritants, get nibbled to death by ducks, etc.
Cheers,
J.
PS: If you venture into a double-hulled small stainless flask, the best which I've found is a 20-oz item available from LL Bean in Portland, Maine. I use mine for x-country skiing, day hikes, cross-continental motorcycle trips (& shorter ones too.) Keeps things hot for 10-12 hrs. It's not as good as the 32-oz Stanley Aladdin item which I bought in the mid-70's and recently gave to our son & daughter-in-law so they could attend to the whims & fancies of our 13-month-old grand-daughter: that item kept things hot and cold for 24 hrs. It's indestructible--happily, 'cos it's no longer made. Stanley sold the Aladdin brand to a Chinese entity, so it now adheres to inadequate knock-offs. (Maybe my small one is an unbranded knock-off?)
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So if any of you know any just reasons why I shouldn't buy the Kleen Kanteens, let him speak now or forever hold his peace
...and...This Kleen Kanteen is "US made" - it is actually manufactured in China from 18 / 20 stainless steel. It would appear that metal water bottles are more prevalent over there than here, with ALL the manufacturers sourcing their labour in China and Korea with the exception of one. One review claimed that Korea made the finest s/s in the world - do you think that's true? Dan's sure to know.
Hi Ian!
As the owner of three Kleen Kanteen bottles is various sizes and the caps to go with them over a period of years, I can speak from some firsthand experience.
I had great hopes for them and readily concede they are terrifically well-made bottles, but found some flaws in my use, for my needs that has caused me to not use them very much. They're mostly retired, but for what I paid, I haven't been able to part with them. They now live in the bottle pockets of my hip-packs for shorter day hikes.
So, what were the problems for me?
I found the bottles "taste" to my tongue and tastebuds. Not "taste" like old plastic water bottles do, but "taste" as in a new tooth filling or even a test-a-semi-dead-9-volt-battery-by-putting-the-electrodes-on-your-tongue sort of way, an electro-metallic taste that some people are sensitive to. Kleen Kanteen addressed this in their FAQ once, but my bottles do vary in this regard, so it may be one or more has a slightly different alloy composition. It may not be the fault of my bottles. There is the matter of where I tour and the water supply. My favored Great Basin has no drainage to the sea, so salts and minerals concentrate to high levels. Much of the water is poisonous alkali that cannot be purified or rendered potable and I have to test it first with Ph strips to see if it can even be touched -- a few drops can cause severe skin irritation that itches for days if it spills on the back of a hand. Even "regular" water there can taste different. This is one reason why I sometimes prefer to salvage scummy water from cattle troughs and livestock watering holes, then zap it with the SteriPen. Though it can taste foul from the livestock, it will at least be non-alkali.
I can still sometimes "taste" water from the bottles if they're filled with really cold source-water from here in the Willamette Valley, but they're just not suitable for my needs in the Great Basin. To be fair, it is possible no stainless bottle would be suitable for my needs there.
I have since switched to Zéfal's Magnum 1l plastic water bottles, available in black or translucent. I have not used the translucent ones, but the black ones have never had a taste of any sort and no smell, either. They're been absolutely ideal for my needs, perhaps the best I have ever used. Much to my surprise, the black doesn't get as warm as I'd feared, and hastens the evaporation of water from a water-soaked sock I sometimes wrap around them for cooling. The nozzles seal very well, but the lids will leak unless screwed tightly. The trick is to hold the bottom and top and twist in opposite directions. To aid the process with wet, cold hands, I put a silicone wristband around the lid of each bottle to aid grip and traction when tightening.
As for composition, stainless steel is a bit like 6061-series aluminum in that a bit of "slippage" in the ingredients is allowed to still meet the formula, and slight changes can affect "taste". These changes can still be within tolerance at a given factory, yet still vary from batch to batch.
Lids are another matter, and one in which Kleen Kanteen and I are in perfect agreement: If you wish to have a truly leakproof seal, use only the screw-on top and make sure it is securely fastened. Kleen Kanteen have repeatedly advised in past FAQs and even on labeling, the Sports cap (with the pull-up nozzle) is *not* leakproof. It is made of a hard plastic and with use, whatever sealing it arrives with becomes nonexistent. In my experience, this means if a well-used bottle falls over, it will leak until the fluid level falls below the level of the spout.
I had not thought this to be a problem while cycling until I took the Nomad out on a tour in the remoter regions of Oregon's Coast Range last summer and the bottom bracket chose that time to die on me. Not wanting to exacerbate the damage, I rode to my little cabin on the coast, met up with some friends who happened to pass through and caught a ride home with them, taking my baggage with me. I went back the next day to pick up the Nomad and loaded it in the back of my Honda Civic hatchback. The bike was on its side and the bottles started to leak, unbeknownst to me until I got home. The water soaked through the carpet and into the insulating fluff beneath, and the lot was made sodden. I had to remove all the seats and the carpet and insulation and lay it out in the sun for a couple weeks, then reinstall. I then sent for and installed screw-on caps for each bottle, forswearing the "convenience" of the Sport tops.
As a last note, the Kleen Kanteen bottles are not built to the standard dimensions of most bicycle water bottles. They're a bit off in diameter but mostly in height; the "swell" at the top is a bit too tall to catch properly in many cages that will accept the diameter. I think this wouldn't be a problem when used with Profile cages, but do check dimensions first to be sure. Kleen Kanteen do make a bottle cage of their own design for some sizes and this can be used if you want to dedicate a pair of bosses to the task: http://www.kleankanteen.com/products/accessories/klean-kanteen-cages.php
I think they're good bottles, but just weren't suitable for my own cycling needs as described above.
Oh! One last word: If you plan to use Kleen Kanteen bottles (or any metal bottle) in sub-freezing conditions, do leave room for expansion. Strong as they are, they can split if the water inside freezes on a cold night. On the other hand, I've lost some plastic bottles due to freeze-bursting on -10°C nights with the bottles in the tent with me.
Hope this helps.
Best,
Dan.
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Hi J
I saw the Stanley - not the model perhaps that you refer to, Aladdin.
It had a very good write up but methinks the clincher is the versatility of the KK - big mouth (just like the ex), able to store big lumps in it and use a spoon, no pratting about with chewing on a teat (best not mention the ex here).
Also, the KK wont look out of place being used in the car - a small detail, granted, but that gives me kudos with her indoors that I'm not a total cycling anorak.
Cheers
Ian
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Thanks a million Dan!! :'(
Why is it that when I've made my mind up, someone (similar to yourself) comes in with a side salvo and blows my choice out of the water. BOOM!
Perhaps I could put your bitter experience down to poor taste? ;D
I will read and re read your comments again as I genuinely believe you are person who's opinions (based on facts) are to be respected.
Ah, more importantly, does beer taste better out of the KK or the Zefal?
Now there's the litmus test. Pick up that gauntlet if you dare.
Regards
Ian
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A couple of further notes, Ian, following Dan's message:
=> I've never had any problems with off tastes in my KK bottles. I often add some lemon juice, however, 'cos I like it, and that might mask anything salty. (All cooks know that to de-salt, simply add lemon, eh?) The lemon does eventually lead to some mould on account of the fruit sugar, but the stainless is better in that respect than any plastic I've used. It does have to be cleaned, of course -- a teaspoonful of regular bleach in a full bottle does the job.
=> The quick sport nozzle does leak, as Dan notes. I find its handiness on the bike is more than enough compensation, however, so I have a couple of stoppers with the sport nozzles. To keep all the liquid inside the KK, use the ring-top unspouted stopper as Dan says. Buy a few extras of each kind if you do choose to buy some bottles.
My bias here is that I like things made of stainless steel.
Lotta detail, eh? J.
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Ah, more importantly, does beer taste better out of the KK or the Zefal?
Now there's the litmus test. Pick up that gauntlet if you dare.
Sadly, I don't drink, so am unqualified to say, Ian! :D
I'm sorry I derailed your decision-making; it is entirely possible the things I found to be a bother won't be a factor for you. The bottles are very nicely made and work well for almost everyone who reviews them. They just didn't suit my needs for the conditions where I used them. Some of these factors might affect others, so it seemed wise to mention them.
The big issues to keep in mind really apply to all bottles:
• Will they be affected by temperature in some untoward way? (metal can become awfully hot or cold to the lips, depending, and there is the freeze-burst issue -- which can affect any overly full bottle in cold temps).
• Will they leak? If so, is there a solution and if applied, will it meet my needs? I'm now understandably leery of waterbottles of any sort in the car. Annnnnnd, not all bottles fit all automobile cup-holders.
• Will they fit your cages? If so, how well? If not, what is needed to make it so?
• Capacity. It might sometimes be desirable to fit a bottle of higher capacity in a standard cage, say during the heat of summer or where extra bottles cannot be fit, larger bottles can add needed capacity. For desert touring on the Nomad I carry 6.5l on the bike (two 1l bottles on the steerer, three 1.5l bottles on the frame in Blackburn B-52 cages), and anothter 20l as cargo. The idea of the Extrawheel trailer was to carry even more. For those tours, I need a lot of water capacity -- daytime air temps can hover between 120-124°F/49-51°C, ground temps are right at 140°F/60°C. On the same trip, daytime highs and nighttime lows can easily range over 70-80°F unless I go from the (Alvord) desert floor to the summit of Steens Mountain (9,734ft/2,967m), in which case I can be sleeping in snow and ice by nightfall -- and then all the water tries to freeze.
You'll do fine, Ian! Go for what you want and give it a try! Thousands of buyers would agree good, well-made stainless bottles can be a terrific, longlasting solution. They look pretty and give a "classic" sort of vibe to any fine bike.
All the best,
Dan.
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Just to add to the discussion I have been very happy with my Monkii bottle cages and their ability to adapt to lots of different size bottles and thermos cups.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/monkii-cage-Bike-Bicycle-Thermos-Nalgene-Sigg-Bottle-Cage-Brompton-Dahon-/221405507579?pt=UK_SportGoods_CyclAcces_RL&var=&hash=item338ccbeffb
Also the added betefit that the cages unclip making it easy to both chop and change between bikes and easing bike cleaning.
Andy
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Sadly, I don't drink, so am unqualified to say, Ian!
Therein lies the problem. As my alcoholic father would say -
"Never trust a man who doesn't drink!!" But in your case Dan, I'm more than willing to make the exception - hiccup.
I don't go to the extremes that you do, I just limit my expeditions to Mars and Uranus, you know, kinda near home and not far away. Seriously, I'm not out in the wilds and subject to rapid and extreme temps - although it was 111 degrees when we rolled into Drug Wall town - and if I take due consideration of everyone's input, then I expect to make the correct purchase for my needs. Interesting how you noted the heat of the bottle touching your lips - hot lips?
Is there anything you don't consider? Do you ever switch off or is there a massive Duracell battery pack strapped to your back?
If all fails, I will be able to fill the KK's with maggots and give them to the ex as a reminder of happy days :-*
Ah, I can see her face now, Bliss.
Regards
Ian
PS. If anyone wants / needs marriage guidance / counselling - I'm your man. Let it be known that diplomacy is my forte.
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;D ;D ;D
Ian, Andy's suggestion of the Monkii Cages is well worth considering. It is a pretty nifty system that allows maximum flexibility in bottle size and placement.
All the best,
Dan. (...who's writing this on the phone mid-ride and smiling a lot after reading your post)
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Hi Andy,
Thanks for that post.
If the Profile cages don't work out, then I will certainly look at these.
Monki cage - ex - hmm. Some mileage there.
Ian
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Dan,
In this country, we have the 3R's - and it's not reading, writing and riding!
That's nearly as bad as drinking and driving.
Tut tut
Ian
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+1 for the Zefal black plastic bottles. I've drunk champagne out of mine with the pedal pals, but don't remember the bottle particularly keeping the fizzy cool. Big pic of it on one of my bikes near the bottom of the page at http://coolmainpress.com/BICYCLINGsmover.html. I think that basically it wasn't in the same class as stainless steel despite the famous name on it. In particular the thin strap from the cap to the bottle soon broke, which was inconvenient and looked ugly.
Personally, I'd rather have metal, preferably stainless, as John says.
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...the thin strap from the cap to the bottle soon broke, which was inconvenient and looked ugly.
It sure would look ugly, Andre! Fortunately, Zéfal redesigned the Magnum bottles so the caps now screw on...no tether to snap or break, and a *very* wide mouth that will take the largest ice cubes whole.
The Zéfal Magnums work great, but don't look as classy as stainless.
All the best,
Dan.
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Hi,
Received my water bottles last week, although the Café Cap (drinking cap) was out of stock.
At 1:30 pm I filled both bottle with boiling water and screwed the caps on.
At 12:30 am I tested the temp with a thermometer - 58'C. I intended to test after 6 hours but forgot!
At 9.00 am the temp was 38'C.
The bottles with the closed cap are certainly adequate for keeping liquids hot on a days ride.
I used them on a 4+ hour ride and my friend used his plastic bottles. Fair enough, the weather temp wasn't in the mid to high 20's but my cold water was cold and his was noticeably warmer.
The Café Caps arrived the other day and I tested the bottles again.
Both had only 2 cubes of ice in - but only one had the closed cap on.
The ice had melted in both bottles and the water was marginally colder in the bottle with the closed cap. I suspect that this was due to the bottle not being open to atmosphere.
PRO'S
I found that the operation of the drinking cap was a doddle.
There was no teat / nipple to chew on - let's not go there, eh?
The water flowed into my mouth with an easy controlled flow.
Most importantly, there was no plastic taste - just fresh, clean cold water.
The water didn't spill / drip / leak out of the drinking cap , as I had been expecting, given that it is not leak proof.
The bottle came out of the elasticated cage very easily and went back very easily.
It made no noise in the elasticated cage.
It didn't get scratched in the elasticated cage.
They are easy to drink out of whilst ON THE MOVE.
The Café Cap splits apart in to 2 pieces for thorough cleaning - not so easy with plastic teats / nipples.
There will be no teeth marks on the drinking cap.
They are more versatile than the plastic bottles
They fit in my car cupholders and look far, far better than the plastic bottles.
My water most definitely now remains cool in the car!
CON'S
They only hold 500ml - that's 33% less than the plastic bottles. A major consideration if going to remote places.
The bottles "chatter" if used in a metal cage.
I tested them in my Blackburn alloy cages - I even used insulating tape on the cages to prevent scratching - they were as good a fit as the plastic bottles but still chattered annoyingly - just like the ex!
They cannot be laid down with the drinking cap on - they leak, quite a lot actually.
I normally drink a lot of water and will miss the extra content of the plastic bottles, but I will just have to top up when convenient.
CONCLUSION
I will be buying a 3rd bottle.
Use a plastic cage
I would recommend these to anybody, in fact, my cycling buddy is sold on them - just like the Rohloff oil, heh, heh.
Dan thought they left a sour taste in his mouth - he ought to meet the ex - she leaves a right bitter taste in your mouth!
Ian
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Another pro:
* They're good-looking water bottles.
Thanks for the comprehensive report, Ian.
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Mon plasir, mon ami.
I will post a photo of the drinking cap asap. After all, that's the essence of drinking from the bottle.
Thanks for reading it.
Ian
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Hi Andre,
Had a squint at your machine on coolmainpress - it looks like a real comfort bike.
Do me a favour please and post a photo here.
I tried blowing it up - hope that don't offend you, being Irish an' all - but it just goes fuzzy.
Looks like it's got all the gizmo's.
Thanks
Ian
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Hi Andre,
Had a squint at your machine on coolmainpress - it looks like a real comfort bike.
Do me a favour please and post a photo here.
I tried blowing it up - hope that don't offend you, being Irish an' all - but it just goes fuzzy.
Looks like it's got all the gizmo's.
Thanks
Ian
Ian and I have handled his interest via private correspondence.
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As promised, here are the exploded photo's of the drinking cap.
You can see the cap in the "closed" position with all orifices covered.
When it's in the drinking position, you can see the alignment of the small hole at"12 o'clock". The air entrainment through this hole is what gives it the smooth controlled flow form the bottle.
The formed drinking "spout" at "6 o'clock" is short enough without clattering your teeth whilst on the move.
The last photo shows the cap in two pieces ready for cleaning. There's no chance of foreign matter being inaccessible.
I hope this post wasn't too laborious for you all, but when one finds a product that works, it's beneficial to broadcast it for the opinions of others doing the same research.
Slange
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Sorry, they wouldn't upload.
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Got there!