Thorn Cycles Forum
Community => Thorn General => Topic started by: dick220369 on March 30, 2017, 02:43:17 pm
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Hi All,
I currently have a Thorn Sherpa which is just over a year old. I love the bike but I have always had a burning desire to get a rohloff. I was hoping to buy a Thorn Nomad frame, get SJS to build me a rohloff rear wheel, and hopefully transfer most of the Sherpa's components across to complete most of the build. I'm thinking the only other components I need to buy would be a single-speed crank set, a rear sprocket, and a chain. Am I missing anything? I built my existing Sherpa from the frame up so I don't think building the Nomad will cause me many headaches. My other reason for going Nomad/rohloff is because I'm a heavy guy, 90 KGs at my lightest and 110 KGs at my heaviest - my weight fluctuates a lot over a year, so I think the stronger frame will be more suited for loaded touring.
Thanks,
Richard :)
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You could keep the Sherpa and stick a Rohloff wheel on it.
Thats what I did, http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3235.0
But if you really need an even stronger frame then go for the Nomad I guess.
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If you could buy a suitable secondhand Nomad you could sell the Sherpa. Sherpa worth £750, secondhand Nomad £1500.. New wheel from Sjsc £1000. New Nomad frame £600. The figures are approximate but you can get the idea.
Bob
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The sherpa will handle your weight no. Problem why would u think the rohloff is going to make your cycling easier.the new tiagra ten speed is a great set up every bit as good as rohloff and if it does break u can fix it.keep your money and maybe buy better camping gear light weight and the price of that rohloff wheel would finance a good tour .
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Anto, it's all about desire. ;)
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I'm thinking the only other components I need to buy would be a single-speed crank set, a rear sprocket, and a chain. Am I missing anything?
Hi Richard!
Best of luck on your project; it can be a viable way to go.
By way of saving a bit, you don't have to buy a new single-speed crankset. Simply replace the bolts (shorter chainring bolts and sleeve nuts with back-spacers) and use the triple crank you have. With luck, you might be able to use it by moving your middle chainring to the outer position to get by until you can add a singlespeed-specific 'ring. The Rohloff is designed for a ~54-55mm chainline (depending on whether the original threaded sprocket is used or the slim carrier), but this can be "fudged" a few mm each way at some cost in overall efficiency/drivetrain life.
In any case, you should be able to avoid buying a new crankset unless you wish to. :)
Other considerations: Your Sherpa wheels likely use 36 spokes and the Rohloff will usually have 32, though a 36-hole version can be ordered. It can be "nice" to have the same number of spokes in both rims so in case of a problem one rim could conceivably be swapped for the other, but in practice this seldom seems to happen. Just a thought to keep in mind.
If you get the Nomad, the Frame Prep option can be a useful one so the bike arrives with all threads freshly retapped and ready to accept bolts (otherwise, some of the powdercoat can settle in the threads, making first-time bolt installations Adventurous). Get the bike with a headset already installed and you'll be ready to go with it (it can be difficult to set the lower crown race on a full-length, uncut 400mm steerer) and the old headset will still be in the Sherpa frame to aid resale. If you choose to transfer your seatpost over, be sure to also get the seat tube shim used in the Nomad to make up the size difference. Overall, your plan should work well.
Best,
Dan.
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true enough Bob but the sherpa is a great bike the nomad is good but it's not 750 quid better ;D imho..if i had kept my lovely sherpa it would have a carbon fork by this stage other than that i would leave it as it is.
few of the lads here do adventure touring so i suppose they going to need 4 panniers but if your touring local (tarmac) i don't see the point , if you get the packing list right you could tour most nearly anywhere with 2 panniers maybe barbag and be a comfy as a pig in s..t ..
anto.
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You are right Anto the Sherpa is a great bike and will do what a Nomad will do, but It's all about the desire
Always fancied a Porsche.
Bob
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i'm a camper van man meself Bob ;D ;D
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I've a caravan but would love a camper but the boss says no
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i know the feeling Bob ;D ;D,
i had my eye on a pair of wheels for my Dolan . i said to the boss innocent like.
ah i might buy these wheels, she just looked at me and said You Wont .
end of story, :'( :'(
Anto.
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I agree the Sherpa is a great bike and I have never had an issue with it. When I got the Sherpa I had the desire for a rohloff but thought "I don't need it, go for the Sherpa, and save some money". Unfortunately the desire for a rohloff never left and it has gotten stronger over the last month or so. I won't buy second hand so that's not an option for me. I was going to just buy a new Nomad and sell the Sherpa on. But the frame/wheel/transfer components across seems the cheaper option. I can always sell the Sherpa frame after but, to be honest, I have almost enough spares to build the Sherpa back up and sell on as a complete bike.
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I have almost enough spares to build the Sherpa back up and sell on as a complete bike.
...or keep also, thus immediately fulfilling the law of n+1 bikes.
;)
All the best,
Dan. (CBI...Certified Bad Influence when it comes to encouraging n+1 fulfillment)
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When I bought my Rohloff hub, it included five small spacers that I believe were intended to allow a double crank with double crank sized bolts to use a single chainring on the crank. In other words, those spacers were about the thickness of a chainring so you could remove the chainring and use those spacers instead. I bought it in 2013 and I do not know if they still include those spacers with a new hub or not. But if they do, you could convert a double (or triple) into a single chainring crank. That said, you would have to figure out if your sherpa crank can take the desired chainring, if your crank has a 130 BCD then it probably would not work for you. I use a double crank with 110 BCD on my Nomad, I usually have a bashguard in the outer position and the chainring in the inner.
The Nomad uses a 73 mm bottom bracket, the Sherpa a 68 mm. Also, the Rohloff may have enough of a chainline difference that you might need a different length bottom bracket spindle.
I have both a Nomad and Sherpa, I like and use both bikes. Don't rule that option out either.
Regarding mixing 32 and 36 spoke wheels on the same bike, my next build (I will start building up the bike on Saturday, had the headset installed today) will have a 32 on the front and 36 in back, so that is not a problem. For a touring bike, you really can get by with 32 spokes in front. But in the back I am a firm believer in 36. (I would use more if hubs were readily available.) My Rohloff has 36 spokes, but I built that wheel, did not buy it from SJS. SJS supplied my Rohloff drilled 36 spoke rim.
...the new tiagra ten speed is a great set up every bit as good as rohloff and...
I do not concur. And if you were correct, Rohloff would go out of business.
Do you still have a light on your bike aimed at the cassette so you can check to see which sprocket your chain is on at night? Only one sprocket on a Rohloff, no need for a light.
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When I bought my Rohloff hub, it included five small spacers that I believe were intended to allow a double crank with double crank sized bolts to use a single chainring on the crank. In other words, those spacers were about the thickness of a chainring so you could remove the chainring and use those spacers instead. I bought it in 2013 and I do not know if they still include those spacers with a new hub or not.
Still included with the Rohloff wheel I bought for my RST mid-2016.
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I'd love to have n + 1 bikes but I don't have room for more than 1. If I did, I would use the Sherpa as a daily use bike and keep the Nomad for touring. I don't have a car, so my bike is my main mode of transport - used everyday come rain, shine, or snow. Unfortunately at work, the bike racks are not under any shelter so the Sherpa is left outside in the rain more often than not. I take good care of the bike though, stripping it down about twice a year, re-greasing every thing, and giving the inside of the frame a blast of 'frame saver'.
One caveat for going rohloff is the fact that I have to send the wheel off to Germany for a service. Since I use my bike for everything, I'd be hard pressed to get by without it for over a week. How easy would it be to convert the Nomad to a single speed whilst the hub was getting serviced?
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They don't need serviced.
Just a quick 15 minute oil change once a year or every 5000km.
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The hub only needs and oil change, which is easy todo.
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Won't any bearings need changed periodically like a normal hub? So what you are saying is that, unless the hub develops a fault, it will never need to be returned to Germany?
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Yes, only servicing it needs is the oil change. at the stated 5000km / 3000 miles or yearly.
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In the unlikely situation that your Rohloff (on a Nomad) had a fault and you had to return it to Germany, another wheel for a 135mm dropout (and most 26 inch wheels are for a 135) could be dropped in to convert it to a single speed. In that situation your Rohloff shifter would have to be wrapped up and attached to the rear frame to keep crud out of it and keep it from getting into the spokes.
If your single speed wheel had more teeth on the sprocket than the Rohloff you might need a few more chain links. But if you do your own bike work, you likely have a few bits of chain lying around. Gear 11 on a Rohloff is direct drive. Thus, a single speed wheel with the same sprocket size would be the same as a Rohloff bike in gear 11. For most people gear 11 is a good gear on the flat and level, if you had hills you would likely want a larger sprocket to make hill climbing on your single speed easier.
I own both a Nomad and Sherpa. They are both great bikes. But, the Nomad is a much heavier bike. So, if you decide to switch from a Sherpa to Nomad, you should fully expect that your bike will be several kg heavier.
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I know that it is advertised as a bike capable of carrying heavier loads, but what makes the Nomad more capable than a Sherpa at doing this? Looking at the frames, neither seems that much different from the other.
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Sjsc can carry out repairs to Rohloff hubs.
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Thanks bobs, that's good to know. I buy a lot of stuff from SJS and their customer service is second to none. I actually met Robin Thorn in Dunkeld, Scotland, a couple of weeks ago. I was out for the weekend with a pal and we had our bikes padlocked outside a cafe. He was taking pictures of my bike because it had a n'lock stem on it.
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I know that it is advertised as a bike capable of carrying heavier loads, but what makes the Nomad more capable than a Sherpa at doing this? Looking at the frames, neither seems that much different from the other.
The wheelbase on the Nomad is longer than the Sherpa / Raven and the tubes in the frames are up one level.
A Nomad will carry the kitchen sink if you want it to. The more rubbish I hang on mine the better it gets.
If you are happy with the way your Sherpa handles & unless you are looking to carry lots more weight, moving to the Hub with a raven frame is worth thinking about.
Cheers Paul
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Won't any bearings need changed periodically like a normal hub? So what you are saying is that, unless the hub develops a fault, it will never need to be returned to Germany?
That pretty much fits the bill. Do the oil change at the stated mileage or once a year whichever comes first. Mark the card which comes with the hub with the date(s) of the oil change & if you are very unlucky and get a fault it should not be an issue with Rohloff.
Cheers,
Paul.
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Hi All,
Just one last question, maybe, before I take the plunge. My Sherpa is a 530L and was wondering what size of Nomad frame would be most similar? I was thinking the 540L.
Originally, I bought the Sherpa as a complete bike built by SJS. Using my supplied measurements, they built me a 500L but I always felt that it was too small so I bought a 530L frame which I feel is a perfect fit for me.
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I know that it is advertised as a bike capable of carrying heavier loads, but what makes the Nomad more capable than a Sherpa at doing this? Looking at the frames, neither seems that much different from the other.
I did not weigh the frames when I bought them, so I can't say how much more the Nomad weighs, but I think the tubing is heavier.
This thread discussed weight capacity on the Sherpa.
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=11661.0
When I bought my Nomad Mk II frame in late winter 2013, at that time my frame (size 590M) had a rated capacity of about 60 kg in addition to weight of rider.
When I pedal my Nomad up a hill it does feel heavier than other bikes that I have pedaled up that same hill. I can't say what the difference is, maybe 2 to 3 kg? I used to complain about the weight of my Nomad, but when I had it in the interior of Iceland last summer, I was really happy to have a bike that I could really load it down and be confident in. Part of the weight difference would be the rear hub, which is not exactly light.
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When I pedal my Nomad up a hill it does feel heavier than other bikes that I have pedaled up that same hill.
Yes they do. Thomas with all of his bitts weighs in at over 19Kg (subtract S&S Andra 30 & Son 28 one could get it down to 18 ish but its still a heavy bike), low gearing compensates for the weight but the trade off on that is riding without a full load the same gearing is rather low.
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I'm now toying with the idea of converting the Sherpa to a rohloff. I have a radical designs cyclone IV trailer which I use for extended touring. So I rarely have more than 15 KGs on the rear rack any other time. Plus I can always go on a diet. I also like the idea of having a frame that I can go back to derailleurs with if I have rohloff issues
I'm looking at getting SIS to build a wheel with the following rohloff:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hubs-internal-hub-gear-brake/retrofit-rohloff-speedhub-50014-cc-14-speed-gear-hub-32-hole-with-disc-fitting-8021-red/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hubs-internal-hub-gear-brake/retrofit-rohloff-speedhub-50014-cc-14-speed-gear-hub-32-hole-with-disc-fitting-8021-red/)
Can anyone tell me what the torque arm is used for? As far as I can tell it's used it you need to change the default direction of the ex mech.
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I'm now toying with the idea of converting the Sherpa to a rohloff. I have a radical designs cyclone IV trailer which I use for extended touring. So I rarely have more than 15 KGs on the rear rack any other time. Plus I can always go on a diet. I also like the idea of having a frame that I can go back to derailleurs with if I have rohloff issues
I'm looking at getting SIS to build a wheel with the following rohloff:
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hubs-internal-hub-gear-brake/retrofit-rohloff-speedhub-50014-cc-14-speed-gear-hub-32-hole-with-disc-fitting-8021-red/ (https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hubs-internal-hub-gear-brake/retrofit-rohloff-speedhub-50014-cc-14-speed-gear-hub-32-hole-with-disc-fitting-8021-red/)
Can anyone tell me what the torque arm is used for? As far as I can tell it's used it you need to change the default direction of the ex mech.
When you pedal, if you are in gear 11, that is direct drive. Then it is just like a single speed. But in all other gears, the way that the internally geared hubs work is that they apply a torque to the frame. The torque arm is used to brace the hub against the frame. The old three speeds or other internally geared hubs that had a very small range did not need much of a device to brace the frame for hub torque, they usually could do it with an axle that was flattened. But the Rohloff with the huge range can apply a lot of torque to the frame. It needs a better bracing method.
Be careful when you order a hub. There are lots of options:
quick release or nutted axle
color
spokes, 32 or 36
shifting mechanism EX box or internal gear cables
disc brake or not
method of bracing the hub against the frame for torque.
You might want to talk to someone at SJS about your plans to make sure that the hub you order is teh right one for the bike.
Also, the Raven or Nomad have an eccentric bottom bracket for chain adjustments, the Sherpa would have no such adjustment. Thus, you would need the chain tensioner.
I do not recall if you are looking at drop bars or flat bars. The Rohloff was originally designed with flat bars in mind, options for drop bars are varied. After trying a few options I finally decided that the HubBub adapter for the Rohloff shifter works best for me. But I have been using bar end shifters for decades so I was accustomed to reaching for a shifter on the end of the handlebar.
http://www.cyclingabout.com/rohloff-hubs-with-drop-handlebars/
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Read through my thread, it's all in there http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=3235.0
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Torque arm is needed because the Sherpa frame doesn't have the long slotted Rohloff drop out.
Nomad, Mercury, Raven, etc. have this drop out, so there is a small peg on the version of the Rohloff hub used with these frames that does the job of the torque arm, but neater.
Not sure if you can fit a disc brake to a Sherpa frame, so check with SJS (unless you want the option of moving the hub to a disc-compatible frame later on).
I have a hub gear in a derailleur bike frame, I use the Surly Singleator tensioner, this has just one pulley so slightly easier to clean than the Rohoff tensioner. A tensioner doesn't look as neat as my Thorn bikes, and impossible to fit a Chainglider, but it works well enough.
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Nomad, Mercury, Raven, etc. have this drop out, so there is a small peg on the version of the Rohloff hub used with these frames that does the job of the torque arm, but neater.
So the Thorn rohloff equipped bikes use a custom rohloff? If I upgraded my Sherpa to a rohloff, I was hoping the option would be available to upgrade to a Nomad frame later on. But this sounds like I would have to be careful about the rohloff I buy otherwise I might find I have to use the torque arm on the Nomad as well.
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So the Thorn rohloff equipped bikes use a custom rohloff?
No. Nomad Raven & Mercury bikes use a frame made to accept an OEM hub without all of the extra complications.
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Nomad, Mercury, Raven, etc. have this drop out, so there is a small peg on the version of the Rohloff hub used with these frames that does the job of the torque arm, but neater.
So the Thorn rohloff equipped bikes use a custom rohloff? If I upgraded my Sherpa to a rohloff, I was hoping the option would be available to upgrade to a Nomad frame later on. But this sounds like I would have to be careful about the rohloff I buy otherwise I might find I have to use the torque arm on the Nomad as well.
All you would need to do is take off the torque arm and axle plate and replace with the OEM axle plate https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-aftermarket-to-oem-axle-plate-converter-mki-for-qr-hub/
There seems to be a newer version as well that is twice the price https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/hub-spares/rohloff-aftermarket-to-oem-axle-plate-converter-mkii-for-qr-hub-8234/
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Been looking at the rohloff installation document and it all looks straight forwards.
@rualexander,
Do you have any pictures of the cable routing you used from the ex mech up the seatstay? The early pictures in you post about your conversion don't work for me.
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Been looking at the rohloff installation document and it all looks straight forwards.
@rualexander,
Do you have any pictures of the cable routing you used from the ex mech up the seatstay? The early pictures in you post about your conversion don't work for me.
Yes, the early photos in that thread got lost when the forum was updated a while back.
Here's a photo now though.
I believe it may also be possible to attach the torque arm to the seatstay rather than the chainstay which would clear up the space below the chainstay for cabling and the ex box. I'm sure I've seen it done somewhere on the internet.
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I think one reason the torque arm attaches to the chainstay rather than the seatstay is that the former is generally much stronger.
I'd suggest asking the advice of SJS (they know about the construction of the Sherpa frame) before trying to attach it to the seatstay.
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Thanks for the photo rualexander.
I've just dropped SJS an email asking a few questions.
Looks like I will go down the Sherpa retrofit path with the plan of getting a Nomad frame at the end of the year :)
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Looks like I will go down the Sherpa retrofit path with the plan of getting a Nomad frame at the end of the year :)
It's not a rout I would chose, but if your desire is for a Nomad frame & the Hub.
Fare-play chap. :)
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I have to agree with Paul , you would be better buying the Nomad frame at the start. There would be additional cost ,torque arm and chain tensioner. It would be a botched job especially if you intend to buy a new frame eventually.
Bob
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yes kinda agree with the lads hold on until u can buy the nomad frame ,use the sherpa for winter take out the shiney new nomad when the sun shines . 8)
anto.
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I have to agree with Paul , you would be better buying the Nomad frame at the start. There would be additional cost ,torque arm and chain tensioner. It would be a botched job especially if you intend to buy a new frame eventually.
Bob
Torque arm comes with the hub.
No need for a chain tensioner, just choose the chainring and sprocket combination carefully using a 'magic gear' calculator.
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No need for a chain tensioner, just choose the chainring and sprocket combination carefully using a 'magic gear' calculator.
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Each to there own, but a retrofit to a bike without an eccentric and a chain tensioner is not a rout I would chose. :)
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Just out of curiosity how do you remove the rear wheel or adjust for chain stretch.
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Just out of curiosity how do you remove the rear wheel or adjust for chain stretch.
You remove the rear wheel the same way as any other, undo the quick release and take out the wheel, you also have to release the torque arm clevis pin which is simple.
You don't adjust for 'chain stretch', you just accept that the chain wears and gets looser over time and will need replacing after a couple of thousand miles, similar to a derailleur chain.
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You don't adjust for 'chain stretch', you just accept that the chain wears and gets looser over time and will need replacing after a couple of thousand miles, similar to a derailleur chain.
Interesting philosophy. ::)
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You don't adjust for 'chain stretch', you just accept that the chain wears and gets looser over time and will need replacing after a couple of thousand miles, similar to a derailleur chain.
Interesting philosophy. ::)
Its not a philosophy, its a practicality.
You could of course get an eccentric bottom bracket such as the Exzentriker.
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Just out of curiosity how do you remove the rear wheel or adjust for chain stretch.
If you are talking about a Raven or Nomad, for chain stretch you adjust it with the eccentric bottom bracket. That effectively moves the bottom bracket (and chainrings) further from or closer to the rear axle.
If you instead use a chain tensioner as you would need to do on the Sherpa, the tensioner takes up the stretch.
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Just out of curiosity how do you remove the rear wheel or adjust for chain stretch.
If you are talking about a Raven or Nomad, for chain stretch you adjust it with the eccentric bottom bracket. That effectively moves the bottom bracket (and chainrings) further from or closer to the rear axle.
If you instead use a chain tensioner as you would need to do on the Sherpa, the tensioner takes up the stretch.
He's asking about a bike without an EBB or a chain tensioner. See the post earlier in this thread:
http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12334.msg91109#msg91109 (http://thorncyclesforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=12334.msg91109#msg91109)
- DaveS
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Well I eventually took the plunge and ordered my Rohloff wheel build from SJS today. I appreciate that not everyone will agree with this decision but, where desire is concerned, common sense for me goes out the window. I purchased the non disk brake version of the Rohloff with internal gear mech. Another choice not everyone will agree with but if people were all of a similar mind the world would be a very boring place to live in. We all like different things and that's why some of my choices will seem absurd/pointless to others. I bought this version of the Rohloff for the following reasons:
- The first bike I ever used had disk brakes and I absolutely hated them. So much so that I sold that bike 2 months after purchasing it and bought something with "proper" brakes.
- The Rohloff without the ex mech was cheaper and I will never upgrade to disk brakes.
- If I want an ex-mech in the future, the Rohloff can be easily upgraded.
- When using a torque arm, the cables for the Rohloff have to go up the seat stays and I feel that this will be a lot neater using a non ex-mech hub. Also the ex-mech looks exposed when routing the cables this way and maybe more prone to damage.
- Although I mentioned that I would buy a Nomad frame in the future, this may never happen.
- I've read the pros and cons for both versions of the Rohloff and there is nothing that would have deterred me from buying the internal version.
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I've not had a problem with the internal hub in 30,000 miles. I have now replaced the internal cable twice. It is a bit fiddly and better to do at home in a workshop rath than at the roadside. I'd suggest changing it as a service item. In theory the ex box has less visible cable and should be better, in practice I've not noticed any issues.
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Thanks for the info geocycle :)
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We all like different things...
Absolutely! You're in good company here. :D
Very much looking forward to updates on your project. All good luck your way.
All the best,
Dan.
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Well I eventually took the plunge and ordered my Rohloff wheel build from SJS today.
Fare play chap! 8)
Enjoy the Hub. they are worth the money.
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Having had both I prefer the EX box, but that's me. As you said you can always change it at a later date.
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If they have not started the wheel build yet, you might consider a CSS rim. Costs a bit more but will last forever. The brake pads also cost a bit more, needs special pads. If you are using your bike for your sole transportation, a rim that lasts forever may be one of those things that interest you.
I do not know if you need a different bottom bracket for a different chainline. You might want to ask SJS if the one you have is good enough.
Sounds like you ordered the variety of hub that I would have ordered if I tried to put one on my Sherpa. I probably would have preferred mounting the cable stops to the cantilever post. Not sure what they have for clips to hold the cables to the toptube, but I am sure that you and SJS will figure something out.
There recently was a long thread on re-using the filler cap. You will not need to know about that for a while, but eventually you will need to know how to do an oil change. I re-used my filler cap this past weekend, but I put new coat of blue locktite on it before putting it back into the hub. I over the years bought two oil change kits (complete with syringe, spare filler cap, hose) so I have a couple spare filler caps if one gets lost.
There are at least three different theories on how much oil is needed in each oil change, I use 15 ml. Rohloff specification is 25 ml. Thorn has suggested a couple numbers, one of which was 15 ml.
It will be noisy in gears 1-7 at first, but after the first oil change it gets better.
You are going to like it.
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If they have not started the wheel build yet, you might consider a CSS rim.
I did order the css rim wheel build from SJS. I ordered everything yesterday and got an email later on that day saying that the items have been dispatched. I've always had excellent service from SJS and very rarely use any other online retailer when buying stuff for my bike. The email did surprise me though because I thought a wheel build would take at least a few days. Going to be busy this weekend putting everything together :)
I do not know if you need a different bottom bracket for a different chainline.
I already enquired about this and SJS said that I can use one of their reversible chainrings on the outer position of the crank along with the crank bolts that come with the rohloff to achieve a 54mm chainline.
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best of luck with the new build dick it will be interesting if nothing else to hear if the expensive was worth it i most certainly hope so .
if i were to upgrade my bike it would be a motor to help me get up the hills ;D
anto.
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The wheel arrived today but I forgot to order css brake pads at the same time as the wheel build. They are ordered now but probably won't get them till Monday. Is there any harm in using normal brake pads for a couple of days on the css rim until I get the css pads?
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The wheel arrived today but I forgot to order css brake pads at the same time as the wheel build. They are ordered now but probably won't get them till Monday. Is there any harm in using normal brake pads for a couple of days on the css rim until I get the css pads?
Probably not, ordinary blocks will wear quickly and some can leave a residue on the carbide. I have used them once in an emergency with no ill effects. The swiss stop blues last forever so don't over-order!
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The wheel arrived today but I forgot to order css brake pads at the same time as the wheel build. They are ordered now but probably won't get them till Monday. Is there any harm in using normal brake pads for a couple of days on the css rim until I get the css pads?
I would not try it in the wet but this weekends forecast looks ok.
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Not directly pertinent, but my RST and Nomad are COMPLETELY different bikes. The geometry changes result in radically different personalities, and I expect that the Sherpa is quite a different ride that a Nomad by extension.
I've got a pile of parts, enough to build two 700cc derailleur frames up, but after living with a Rolloff, I don't think I can go back to slumming it, so I encourage the change-over. My experience in the past has led me to vow to not compromise, so in your shoes, I'd not try to adapt the sherpa. Live is shorter that we always think, and we can't take it with us ... so spend the money, do it right, and get a Nomad - or a Raven, if you can live with less that 60 pounds on the bike. I find that the Nomad is really at home with very high loads only. For the 45-50 pounds that I tend to lug around, the RST seems to be much more lively and fun.
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The wheel arrived today but I forgot to order css brake pads at the same time as the wheel build. They are ordered now but probably won't get them till Monday. Is there any harm in using normal brake pads for a couple of days on the css rim until I get the css pads?
I tried that when I built up my Nomad four years ago. I had CSS pads, but I was curious what would happen with regular pads so I tried them. The softer brake pads left a residue on the rim. I put the CSS pads on after only a couple miles.
The CSS rims start out with exceptionally good braking capability, but that eventually wears down to the same as a typical rim. I think that the CSS surface starts out much rougher and the brake pads are very grippy then, but eventually the rims smooth down a bit after some braking.
Some have said that CSS rims eventually after a lot of distance are very poor when wet, but mine are still about the same as a normal rim when wet. I have CSS front and rear.
You have a front brake, do you think you would remember to favor the front and only use the rear in emergency? If so, I would not tell you to stay off of your new wheel, I know how much you will really want to get out and test it.
You might be tempted to tighten up the cables tighter than they should be. When the cables are too tight, sometimes when you shift you land in between gears. Start out with them quite loose and gradually tighten until you find that your shifting no longer works well, then slack off a bit. I have enough slack in my cables so that if I am in for example gear 11, the twist grip shifter will move from about 10.5 to 11.5 due to the slack. I probably have them looser than they need to be but if you were to start out that way, it should work well. You could always try them tighter later if you want.
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Everything fitted and was a lot easier than I thought it would be. One issue is that I have to pull the forks slightly apart to get the wheel in otherwise it doesn't sit properly in the non-drive side dropout. No a big deal but the old wheel just dropped in without issue. Also gearing isn't as low as I'd like it but I'm away in a month's time and I'll be doing a few hills then so that will be a good test to see if the range of gears work for me. One of the days is Aviemore to Strathdon via Tomintoul - Scotland - so there will plenty of climbing to put the gears through their paces. I took the bike out just for a quick test ride but I kept looking for the thumb shifters when trying to change gear. Old habits die hard I suppose.
No pics at the moment but will post some in a few days time.
One other problem I had was that the manual said I should drop the chain tensioner so that the top jokey wheel sat about 1 mm from the sprocket. Couldn't figure it out so the jockey wheel is probably too high but I'll try and remedy that over the next few days.
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gearing isn't as low as I'd like it
The Range of gearing with the hub is fixed. Your Sproket has ? teeth. Your Ring has ? teeth.
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I know you alter the gear ratios via the sprocket/chain ring combo. I probably should have worded my last post a little better so that I didn't appear ignorant. Currently I have a 16 teeth sprocket and 41 teeth chain ring. I have to watch what combo I go for if I want to make sure I don't undercut the minimum factor of 2.50 according to Rohloff - I'm 110 kgs. My Sherpa was running a 48/36/26 chainset and a 11-36 cassette before I made the change.
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I ain't changing anything at the moment though because I am skint :( after buying the Rohloff.
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I know you alter the gear ratios via the sprocket/chain ring combo. I probably should have worded my last post a little better so that I didn't appear ignorant. Currently I have a 16 teeth sprocket and 41 teeth chain ring. I have to watch what combo I go for if I want to make sure I don't undercut the minimum factor of 2.50 according to Rohloff - I'm 110 kgs. My Sherpa was running a 48/36/26 chainset and a 11-36 cassette before I made the change.
So Gear 1 has dropped from 18.6 to 18.1 dependent on crank length & tire with. That's not exactly a big difference.
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Probably just requires some time for me to get accustomed to the new setup. I'll take it out for a longer run tomorrow and climb a few hills then. I'm still glad I did the retrofit though. A lot less to think about over a derailleur setup as long as the hub behaves itself.
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I have 38-16 on my Nomad. If I was carrying a full load, I would probably go with 36-16 or 36-17. I have a lot of hills in my area, so I want low gearing. With my current gearing, 1st gear is just right for the steep hills (9-10%) and my top pedalling speed (downhill!) is about 45 km/h. Above that I coast.
I wonder if the gearing feels higher than your derailleur bike because of the extra weight of the Nomad. I certainly feel the weight when accelerating from a stop.
- DaveS
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If I was carrying a full load, I would probably go with 36-16 or 36-17...
<nods> Echoing Dave, I have 36 x 17 on my own Nomad for expedition touring. It is something I'm grateful for when cranking up 24% grades on logging roads unladen, also.
Best,
Dan.
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I have to watch what combo I go for if I want to make sure I don't undercut the minimum factor of 2.50 according to Rohloff - I'm 110 kgs.
As you said your weight fluctuates between 90 and 110 Kg, you could perhaps ignore the 2.5 minimum. At 90 Kg, the minimum is 1.9.
Like several others, I went for a fairly low ratio of 38x16 on my Raven Tour heavy tourer. When the 16T sprocket wears out I will drop slightly to 38x17 (the minimum possible with a Chainglider, but still well over the Rohloff 1.9 limit)
I currently have a higher ratio of 50x19 on my Raven Sport Tour, which is used on good roads and only lightly loaded. I chose the 19T because I have a stock of TA chainrings from 42 to 54, so I can easily change the gearing if I feel the need.
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I am with the guys above.
My nomad is 42 x 19 at the moment which produces a low gear of 16.00 But for Iceland it is going to 40 x19 which = 15.3 gear 1.
My Mercury is 49 x19 but it is only used on good roads with next to no luggage.
As martin says I would not get to hung up about the 2.5 limit , the hub is pretty tough.
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I take it vibration through the pedals in the lower gear - 1 to 7 - is normal for a new hub? The vibration is more evident when climbing in those gears and loosens off/disappears on the flats.
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Echoing Dave, I have 36 x 17 on my own Nomad for expedition touring.
And re-echoing Dan and Dave, I've found the 36 x 17 ideal for loaded touring on my Raven. (I've found that I can even use a slightly modified Chainglider with the 36T front ring.)
In a few years, I could move to a 36 x 19 (=1.9 ratio) or a 38 x 19, depending on the balance among rear sprocket wear, steepening hills, & declining reserves of strength & endurance. (Or I might just buy a Mercury & do lighter touring.)
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I take it vibration through the pedals in the lower gear - 1 to 7 - is normal for a new hub? The vibration is more evident when climbing in those gears and loosens off/disappears on the flats.
Not in my experience. I can hear both of my hubs in 1 to 7 but have no vibration. I suspect it has more to do with the chain tensioner than the hub.
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WHeel not fitting into the dropouts? I would not worry about it but it surprises me. My Nomad, it does not fit that well but that is because I have a rack that is a bit too narrow and that presses the frame in. And does not fit that well on another bike that has 130mm dropouts when I run a 135mm wheel. Your Rohloff should drop right in. But, I would not worry about it.
I regularly ride a bike with bar end shifters, a bike with downtube friction shifter for front derailleur and brifter for rear derailleur, and my Rohloff bike with the twist grip shifter. I am ALWAYS eaching for the wrong shifter.
On the minimum ratio, I never tell anyone to do something that would violate a warranty.
Gears 1 to 7 are noisy, you are using a third set of planetary gears that is comparable to putting a Jeep or Land Rover into low range. Gears 8 to 14 do not engage those planetary gears. After the first oil change it is slightly quieter, but that is a permanent feature of the Rohloff. I did not get any vibration from it, but perhaps the extra noise is making you think that there is vibration?
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There is a vibration through the pedals which I feel through the soles of my feet but mostly experienced when climbing in gears 1-7. I did some searching on the internet and some people also experience this in gears 1-7 of a new hub. Supposedly it is normal and dissipates over time as the hub breaks in. Maybe other people don't feel it because they wear thicker soled shoes? It's something I have felt with a derailleur setup when the gears were not indexed properly but the vibration was less pronounced.
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Um,
Dick says he feels the gears are not as low as he would like.
I would struggle to work up much excitement for lugging a trailer around with my lowest gear in the mid 18's.
Would not 41 x 19 not be within the parameters as well as yielding a lower bottom gear than he has today?
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Any Rohloff owners experience the cranks rotating gradually on their own while pushing the bike?
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Yep! Mine still do on my Nomad, as did the ones on the Raven Tour Andy so kindly loaned to me in 2014.
One means of addressing this in part involves squirting a drop of oil between the cog and seal as Rohloff suggest, but I have not done so out of concern it could attract dust in the desert environs where I often tour.
Best,
Dan.
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Both mine and my wife's Raven's pedals rotate very gently when pushing the bikes. I first found it disconcerting but now I hardly notice it.
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Any Rohloff owners experience the cranks rotating gradually on their own while pushing the bike?
Yes, but with time they do not have as much of a tendency to do that. I never worried about it because I could not feel any pressure trying to turn the crank when I coasted. I might try Dan's solution, I had not heard of that before. Maybe a shot of tri-flow lubricant?
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I might try Dan's solution, I had not heard of that before. Maybe a shot of tri-flow lubricant?
Hi mickeg,
From the Rohloff site: https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/faqs/speedhub-50014/input-drive/index.html
Crank rotation whilst pushing
Should the bike be pushed, it is possible that the cranks could also start to rotate.
This occurs due to the hub seal automatically activating the sprocket.
A very light running bottom bracket with poor quality seals will make it much easier for the cranks to rotate.
A drop of Rohloff cleaning oil (Part No. 8402) through the holes in the sprocket onto the hub seal will reduce this acivating effect.
So, Rohloff recommends Rohloff cleaning oil in this application, not Tri-Flow.
Some more interesting information on friction appears on that same page.
All the best,
Dan.
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I was cycling home from work today and going up a hill in gear 4. I thought I might drop a gear but decided to stand up and cycle up the hill instead. When I stood up I heard a crunching noise from the hub and it felt like the hub had dropped into a lower gear. I immediately sat down after this happened and continued my cycle home seated. I hardly ever stand up and cycle but I thought this wouldn't be an issue for the Rohloff. Anybody else experience this/know why this happened? This is the first time I have tried cycling standing up from the seat. I've never experienced this sort of thing from a seated position but I haven't had the hub long enough to be certain that it wouldn't.
Thank you everyone for all the advice, it's been a great help.
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I was cycling home from work today and going up a hill in gear 4. I thought I might drop a gear but decided to stand up and cycle up the hill instead. When I stood up I heard a crunching noise from the hub and it felt like the hub had dropped into a lower gear. I immediately sat down after this happened and continued my cycle home seated. I hardly ever stand up and cycle but I thought this wouldn't be an issue for the Rohloff. Anybody else experience this/know why this happened? This is the first time I have tried cycling standing up from the seat. I've never experienced this sort of thing from a seated position but I haven't had the hub long enough to be certain that it wouldn't.
Thank you everyone for all the advice, it's been a great help.
It is most likely you didn't back off the pressure on the pedals quite enough when changing. This becomes second nature after a while but the hub drops you to 7th or 14th if you get it wrong.
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Your probably right geocycle. I took the bike out for another spin going through the local park. It was mostly off-road going up and down a lot of steep embankments deliberately in a gear that was higher than I would usually use. This meant that I was putting a lot more power through the pedals than I would do normally. I didn't try anything standing up but managed to get up all the embankments without a gear slip :)
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It is best to back off pedal pressure when shifting. This is most critical when shifting between 7 and 8 or back, as that is shifting in and out of the third low range planetary gearset. But it is best to back off some in all other gear shifts too.
I was cycling on a Sturmey Archer 3 speed in the 1960s and low quality 10 speed bikes (double crank and 5 speed freewheel) in the 70s, so I learned as a kid to always back off on pedal pressure when shifting. And my foldup bike uses an Sram Dual Drive which is not unlike a Sturmey Archer 3 speed, so I still am reminded of how to shift that type of hub when I ride that bike.
I found that the way I pedaled during gear shifting transferred perfectly to the Rohloff. I suspect people that are used to pedaling hard while shifting (which some newer indexed derailleurs can achieve) are more likely to have trouble switching to a Rohloff from a derailleur system.
I might try Dan's solution, I had not heard of that before. Maybe a shot of tri-flow lubricant?
Hi mickeg,
From the Rohloff site: https://www.rohloff.de/en/service/faqs/speedhub-50014/input-drive/index.html
Crank rotation whilst pushing
Should the bike be pushed, it is possible that the cranks could also start to rotate.
This occurs due to the hub seal automatically activating the sprocket.
A very light running bottom bracket with poor quality seals will make it much easier for the cranks to rotate.
A drop of Rohloff cleaning oil (Part No. 8402) through the holes in the sprocket onto the hub seal will reduce this acivating effect.
So, Rohloff recommends Rohloff cleaning oil in this application, not Tri-Flow.
Some more interesting information on friction appears on that same page.
All the best,
Dan.
Thanks.
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Any Rohloff owners experience the cranks rotating gradually on their own while pushing the bike?
Yes.
It is normal behaviour for the hub according to the manufacture ;).
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I was cycling home from work today and going up a hill in gear 4. I thought I might drop a gear but decided to stand up and cycle up the hill instead. When I stood up I heard a crunching noise from the hub and it felt like the hub had dropped into a lower gear. I immediately sat down after this happened and continued my cycle home seated. I hardly ever stand up and cycle but I thought this wouldn't be an issue for the Rohloff. Anybody else experience this/know why this happened? This is the first time I have tried cycling standing up from the seat. I've never experienced this sort of thing from a seated position but I haven't had the hub long enough to be certain that it wouldn't.
Thank you everyone for all the advice, it's been a great help.
Unless you turned the shifter? are you sure the noise was the hub or the chain tensioner?